23455 réponses à ce sujet

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

One brilliant poster put all this into context. In order to believe and accept or to disbelieve and deny the endings as they are requires an incredible amount of undue explanation. Most of it must be totally made up. In short, there's no there there.

We are given very little fuel for the fire. We have to rely on pure conjecture for everything, except when we don't.

One side says the Mass Relays destroy the system they are in-a valid point that has some basis in fact explained within the game in The Arrival-so pure conjecture is not needed. Simple extrapolation from an example now in evidence is all that this requires. This has occurred before so this is likely to be what would happen unless you can prove otherwise.

The other side says, "wait a minute, but..." and then conjecture enters onto the scene. "Maybe this is a different type of explosion, a limited type. So what if the Mass Relays contain an extremely impressive amount of stored up energy that seemingly when released would destroy anything and everything nearby. Maybe it wouldn't." Extrapolation not supported by anything within the game.

One side says, "The star kid's statements make no sense" and they base this on things within the game itself. The kid says created will destroy creator-always. Not supported by at least one major plot line in the game, even though the reality of it may depend upon how you handle the plot line. Your choice may give credence to what the kid says, but it is just as likely to deny him that credence. So, this again is a fact not in evidence. Shepard can make this a lie.

The other side says, "But wait..." And then conjecture begins, "Maybe the star kid had never had any examples before of the created reuniting and working together with the creator." And once again that does not matter. The example(s) exist now. And the examples would be explained as soon as the star kid uttered the words. It would blow away this kid's house of cards. The star kid seems to know everything else, but maybe just maybe not this.

But there's also a basic fallacy with my whole premise as well as the idea that there has to be sides to this argument at all. We are all fans, I would think. We have differing opinions. We can have discussions on these opinions, but only when we really look at "evidence" the other position offers up. Not conjecture. Proof.

In light of this, with all we are given, prove that the created will always destroy the creator. Prove that it makes sense and so should be a main theme at the end that advanced organics must be destroyed to keep them from being destroyed. Prove that the Mass Relays wouldn't destroy just about everything. Prove that the kid is an appropriate stand in for the reapers. Prove that it makes sense that Joker is running away, that retreat made sense, that the idyllic planet scene fit and was a decent ending (remember it could be an all male cast at the end). Prove that the star kid had time to formulate the idea and create the infrastructure for the 3 choice ending, but did not have time to see any 4th option. Prove that Shepard's actions at the end fit with not just the rest of the game and how you played him/her, but with the way others might have. I united Geth/Quarian, cured the genophage, got the Batarians (who hate me) to follow me. But if I choose to destroy the reapers (what my Shepard would always want to do-control and synthesis never being options), I reject other things I have set out to do. Prove to me that that makes sense. I promise not to bite. And I have truly never read any answer to these things that addresses them without the use of the word maybe.

This is not directed at any one poster, but is directed to all who have opinions different from mine.  Decent, fair, respectful discussion is the better route.  But, in order to discuss something both sides (and one very special person) must be willing to actually discuss the points of argument and not merely post ridicule of others.  I am not sure that some people are up to the challenge.

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

[3DandBeyond]

And while this may seem like a dead horse topic, it really isn't. New people come along all the time. It won't truly be dead until the EC comes and goes and we see what's what. Emotionalism, fanaticism, and the pure adrenaline that may drive some to post will quite naturally fade.

But there are other threads with very vibrant discussions going on and there's just as much reason to speculate that this will continue until EC. After all, what's a couple months compare to the years people have spent with these games?

[Thanatos144]

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

One brilliant poster put all this into context. In order to believe and accept or to disbelieve and deny the endings as they are requires an incredible amount of undue explanation. Most of it must be totally made up. In short, there's no there there.

We are given very little fuel for the fire. We have to rely on pure conjecture for everything, except when we don't.

One side says the Mass Relays destroy the system they are in-a valid point that has some basis in fact explained within the game in The Arrival-so pure conjecture is not needed. Simple extrapolation from an example now in evidence is all that this requires. This has occurred before so this is likely to be what would happen unless you can prove otherwise.

The other side says, "wait a minute, but..." and then conjecture enters onto the scene. "Maybe this is a different type of explosion, a limited type. So what if the Mass Relays contain an extremely impressive amount of stored up energy that seemingly when released would destroy anything and everything nearby. Maybe it wouldn't." Extrapolation not supported by anything within the game.

One side says, "The star kid's statements make no sense" and they base this on things within the game itself. The kid says created will destroy creator-always. Not supported by at least one major plot line in the game, even though the reality of it may depend upon how you handle the plot line. Your choice may give credence to what the kid says, but it is just as likely to deny him that credence. So, this again is a fact not in evidence. Shepard can make this a lie.

The other side says, "But wait..." And then conjecture begins, "Maybe the star kid had never had any examples before of the created reuniting and working together with the creator." And once again that does not matter. The example(s) exist now. And the examples would be explained as soon as the star kid uttered the words. It would blow away this kid's house of cards. The star kid seems to know everything else, but maybe just maybe not this.

But there's also a basic fallacy with my whole premise as well as the idea that there has to be sides to this argument at all. We are all fans, I would think. We have differing opinions. We can have discussions on these opinions, but only when we really look at "evidence" the other position offers up. Not conjecture. Proof.

In light of this, with all we are given, prove that the created will always destroy the creator. Prove that it makes sense and so should be a main theme at the end that advanced organics must be destroyed to keep them from being destroyed. Prove that the Mass Relays wouldn't destroy just about everything. Prove that the kid is an appropriate stand in for the reapers. Prove that it makes sense that Joker is running away, that retreat made sense, that the idyllic planet scene fit and was a decent ending (remember it could be an all male cast at the end). Prove that the star kid had time to formulate the idea and create the infrastructure for the 3 choice ending, but did not have time to see any 4th option. Prove that Shepard's actions at the end fit with not just the rest of the game and how you played him/her, but with the way others might have. I united Geth/Quarian, cured the genophage, got the Batarians (who hate me) to follow me. But if I choose to destroy the reapers (what my Shepard would always want to do-control and synthesis never being options), I reject other things I have set out to do. Prove to me that that makes sense. I promise not to bite. And I have truly never read any answer to these things that addresses them without the use of the word maybe.

This is not directed at any one poster, but is directed to all who have opinions different from mine.  Decent, fair, respectful discussion is the better route.  But, in order to discuss something both sides (and one very special person) must be willing to actually discuss the points of argument and not merely post ridicule of others.  I am not sure that some people are up to the challenge.

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

Maybe someone should ask that instead of demand they change it.

[LiarasShield]

I'm not the type of person that just let the pieces fall where they may

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

And while this may seem like a dead horse topic, it really isn't. New people come along all the time. It won't truly be dead until the EC comes and goes and we see what's what. Emotionalism, fanaticism, and the pure adrenaline that may drive some to post will quite naturally fade.

But there are other threads with very vibrant discussions going on and there's just as much reason to speculate that this will continue until EC. After all, what's a couple months compare to the years people have spent with these games?

I have Mass3 collectors edition sitting around doing nothing except for mutiplayer........so I will continue to use Bioware's forum facilities until I feel I've had my money's worth.,lol.

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

see he hasn't moved on he just likes to argue that is why he stays lol and he gets ull raged up about how we are not open minded but every time someone shows problem with the ending he just automaticlly says their wrong and not even really decent explanations just you're wrong thats about it really is sad lol

Not everyone just those I have argued with since the begining...Why you might ask????? Cause you all say the same things over and over and over even if it is wrong.

well dear thanaie I even said during several conversations with you that I would love the dlc to prove me wrong that I would like the races to survive somehow and that our sacrifices mean something and that we can have some what of a victory and see the alliances we forged and see how they play out and for some of the closure for our crew but for right now thanaie I'm pretty much right lol

Since I highly doubt that you go back and read posts here ya go ^_-

[LiarasShield]

as things stand without thee extended it just cuts off with the fleets being stranded around a dieing earth relays gone crew abandons you when they should stay deadicated to the fleets and thats about it we can say

yeah they can colonize other planets within our solar system or yeah they can rebuild the relays but until that stuff happens right now the ending leaves too many holes open and it pretty much right now feels like a failure ending so yes once again I do hope the Dlc proves me wrong

I MEAN I LOOK FORWARD TO IT DOING JUST THAT

but until it does this is how things stand right now

Modifié par LiarasShield, 04 mai 2012 - 05:01 .

[darkway1]

Thanatos144 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

One brilliant poster put all this into context. In order to believe and accept or to disbelieve and deny the endings as they are requires an incredible amount of undue explanation. Most of it must be totally made up. In short, there's no there there.

We are given very little fuel for the fire. We have to rely on pure conjecture for everything, except when we don't.

One side says the Mass Relays destroy the system they are in-a valid point that has some basis in fact explained within the game in The Arrival-so pure conjecture is not needed. Simple extrapolation from an example now in evidence is all that this requires. This has occurred before so this is likely to be what would happen unless you can prove otherwise.

The other side says, "wait a minute, but..." and then conjecture enters onto the scene. "Maybe this is a different type of explosion, a limited type. So what if the Mass Relays contain an extremely impressive amount of stored up energy that seemingly when released would destroy anything and everything nearby. Maybe it wouldn't." Extrapolation not supported by anything within the game.

One side says, "The star kid's statements make no sense" and they base this on things within the game itself. The kid says created will destroy creator-always. Not supported by at least one major plot line in the game, even though the reality of it may depend upon how you handle the plot line. Your choice may give credence to what the kid says, but it is just as likely to deny him that credence. So, this again is a fact not in evidence. Shepard can make this a lie.

The other side says, "But wait..." And then conjecture begins, "Maybe the star kid had never had any examples before of the created reuniting and working together with the creator." And once again that does not matter. The example(s) exist now. And the examples would be explained as soon as the star kid uttered the words. It would blow away this kid's house of cards. The star kid seems to know everything else, but maybe just maybe not this.

But there's also a basic fallacy with my whole premise as well as the idea that there has to be sides to this argument at all. We are all fans, I would think. We have differing opinions. We can have discussions on these opinions, but only when we really look at "evidence" the other position offers up. Not conjecture. Proof.

In light of this, with all we are given, prove that the created will always destroy the creator. Prove that it makes sense and so should be a main theme at the end that advanced organics must be destroyed to keep them from being destroyed. Prove that the Mass Relays wouldn't destroy just about everything. Prove that the kid is an appropriate stand in for the reapers. Prove that it makes sense that Joker is running away, that retreat made sense, that the idyllic planet scene fit and was a decent ending (remember it could be an all male cast at the end). Prove that the star kid had time to formulate the idea and create the infrastructure for the 3 choice ending, but did not have time to see any 4th option. Prove that Shepard's actions at the end fit with not just the rest of the game and how you played him/her, but with the way others might have. I united Geth/Quarian, cured the genophage, got the Batarians (who hate me) to follow me. But if I choose to destroy the reapers (what my Shepard would always want to do-control and synthesis never being options), I reject other things I have set out to do. Prove to me that that makes sense. I promise not to bite. And I have truly never read any answer to these things that addresses them without the use of the word maybe.

This is not directed at any one poster, but is directed to all who have opinions different from mine.  Decent, fair, respectful discussion is the better route.  But, in order to discuss something both sides (and one very special person) must be willing to actually discuss the points of argument and not merely post ridicule of others.  I am not sure that some people are up to the challenge.

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

Maybe someone should ask that instead of demand they change it.

Come on now Mr Thanatos,stop trying to provoke.....I'm sure lot's of people have asked lot's of constructive questions.........but sadly Bioware won't answer them.

[Flamewielder]

Consider this:

Unless you assume that "Starchild" has god-like omniscience (which he admits he hasn't, as he could not foresee Shep completing the Crucible), his statement that synthetics will always rebel against their organic creators is dubious at best. So there's no reason Shep should take anything "Starchild" says at face value.

"Starchild" was not required to bring the saga to a close. Toss him, please.

The "first" Reaper could have been created by a race as an attempt to transcend the stagnation of their civilization and leave room for the next generation of organics. Their intent may or may not have been to impose their solution to future organic civilization; that's no longer material. The only thing we are certain of is: the Reapers believe they are doing us a favor by harvesting and storing our civilizations in Reaper form.

We may agree that we owe it to future civilizations to make room for them, but object to the Reapers' solution (i.e. imposing (their) structure/order on the galaxy). Or we may agree with Javik and argue that our current civilizations have as much of a right to thrive as any future one and that future civilizations will just have to compete with ours (i.e. let random chance/chaos decide).

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

see he hasn't moved on he just likes to argue that is why he stays lol and he gets ull raged up about how we are not open minded but every time someone shows problem with the ending he just automaticlly says their wrong and not even really decent explanations just you're wrong thats about it really is sad lol

Not everyone just those I have argued with since the begining...Why you might ask????? Cause you all say the same things over and over and over even if it is wrong.

well dear thanaie I even said during several conversations with you that I would love the dlc to prove me wrong that I would like the races to survive somehow and that our sacrifices mean something and that we can have some what of a victory and see the alliances we forged and see how they play out and for some of the closure for our crew but for right now thanaie I'm pretty much right lol

Since I highly doubt that you go back and read posts here ya go ^_-

I really do think the only opinon that thanatos acknowledges is his own and nobody elses lol

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

Maybe someone should ask that instead of demand they change it.

This question has been asked by myself and others many times over.  We've asked in every possible way for Bioware to explain this ending as it was released.  The reply is the same sound one hand clapping makes.

I do appreciate the suggestion-it's just it has been asked.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 05:04 .

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

see he hasn't moved on he just likes to argue that is why he stays lol and he gets ull raged up about how we are not open minded but every time someone shows problem with the ending he just automaticlly says their wrong and not even really decent explanations just you're wrong thats about it really is sad lol

Not everyone just those I have argued with since the begining...Why you might ask????? Cause you all say the same things over and over and over even if it is wrong.

well dear thanaie I even said during several conversations with you that I would love the dlc to prove me wrong that I would like the races to survive somehow and that our sacrifices mean something and that we can have some what of a victory and see the alliances we forged and see how they play out and for some of the closure for our crew but for right now thanaie I'm pretty much right lol

Since I highly doubt that you go back and read posts here ya go ^_-

. Your right I didnt see this post thank you. As for its content.
......Why do you need to know any of this? They are giving you more than
I would have. All of this could be part of another game. It wouldn't be a first time a ending shapes how the universe evolves...  I dont need to know what happens to all the races around the
planet . I figure they will ether find a way home or make a new one

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

Maybe someone should ask that instead of demand they change it.

This question has been asked repeatedly by myself and others many times over.  We've asked in every possible way for Bioware to explain this ending as it was released.  The reply is the same sound one hand clapping makes.

Not by you it hasnt. All they read is you telling them they are wrong and stupid for writing this game like this.

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Great post......this is what I've just been talking about.......there is no right or wrong presently as we don't have official facts......DLC can introduce all kinds of new elements to the story......but why Bioware would want to end the game in this way is up for debate????

Maybe someone should ask that instead of demand they change it.

This question has been asked repeatedly by myself and others many times over.  We've asked in every possible way for Bioware to explain this ending as it was released.  The reply is the same sound one hand clapping makes.

........I've tried clapping with one hand and I can't hear anything.....am I doing some thing wrong????

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

as things stand without thee extended it just cuts off with the fleets being stranded around a dieing earth relays gone crew abandons you when they should stay deadicated to the fleets and thats about it we can say

yeah they can colonize other planets within our solar system or yeah they can rebuild the relays but until that stuff happens right now the ending leaves too many holes open and it pretty much right now feels like a failure ending so yes once again I do hope the Dlc proves me wrong

I MEAN I LOOK FORWARD TO IT DOING JUST THAT

but until it does this is how things stand right now

we have been having this silly excersize with thanatos this entire time he can't even acknowledge that their is too many holes left open for speculation and that they won't be stranded or that they will find a way to keep going but unless it is shown it cuts off with a failure ending and nothing about you crew other then we left you all hahaha and ended up a on a jungle planet

or once again  we synthetics kill you organics so that you won't create other synthetics that will kill you if you can't even really explain the reapers motives and make sense out of them then don't try to explain the reapers to begin with

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Not by you it hasnt. All they read is you telling them they are wrong and stupid for writing this game like this.

Yes it has.  I've asked it many times over for someone from Bioware to please explain their ending.  Just because you never cared to go back and read what people have posted does not make this true.

Again, I will point out that it would be nice to have a discussion and not a slam fest. 

Not possible with you, so I really do need to stop trying to have a decent conversation with you.  You don't listen, don't care.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

see he hasn't moved on he just likes to argue that is why he stays lol and he gets ull raged up about how we are not open minded but every time someone shows problem with the ending he just automaticlly says their wrong and not even really decent explanations just you're wrong thats about it really is sad lol

Not everyone just those I have argued with since the begining...Why you might ask????? Cause you all say the same things over and over and over even if it is wrong.

well dear thanaie I even said during several conversations with you that I would love the dlc to prove me wrong that I would like the races to survive somehow and that our sacrifices mean something and that we can have some what of a victory and see the alliances we forged and see how they play out and for some of the closure for our crew but for right now thanaie I'm pretty much right lol

Since I highly doubt that you go back and read posts here ya go ^_-

I really do think the only opinon that thanatos acknowledges is his own and nobody elses lol

I am sure it seems this way to you cause I dont agree with yours much.
But truthfully that is not the case I just dont find the need to pat
people on the back for having opinions I agree with. I dont think they
need others to give them kudos for being an individual.

[LiarasShield]

And thanatos it wouldn't make sense for a mass effect 4 if the main protagonist is dead unlike dragon age the mass effect series has always revolved around shepard and his or her crew a me4 wouldn't make sense really since the main protagonist is dead or out of comission and the crew are lost on a planet somewhere

[LiarasShield]

they don't even have a real base to go on to make a me4 I mean maybe with thee extended dlc they maybe be able to find some area to fit in but again right now they do not have enough to make a me4 and a lot of fans aren't gonna be happy about getting some random person we have either never seen before or play as before

[LiarasShield]

I mean the only bases they could go off to make a me4 is really the good destroy ending

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

And thanatos it wouldn't make sense for a mass effect 4 if the main protagonist is dead unlike dragon age the mass effect series has always revolved around shepard and his or her crew a me4 wouldn't make sense really since the main protagonist is dead or out of comission and the crew are lost on a planet somewhere

Why do you say this? Are you saying the universe is not rich enough to
survive with out Shepard? Cause I have to tell you I think your
completely wrong. A rich universe is the breeding grounds for many of
stories. Hell just look at the world of Greyhawk. (that is the world Dungeons & Dragons) It has as many stories as there are people who
wish to write them.

[LiarasShield]

and no thanatos people have given decent explanations in full paragrap detail and all you do is say their wrong sometimes more then not not evening giving decent reasons as to why they may be wrong other then they're wrong so man the one who is the most offensive is still pretty much you lol

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...



Yes, they provide conclusion to those plot lines within the story before the ending. I was talking about the ending that totally throws out the meaning of those conclusions. The ending disregards those choices. And it's because if you chose to reunite the Geth and Quarians, cure the genophage, seek Batarian help, and so on, you are not given any option to tell the Star Kid to stuff his choices, choices that do not recognize these things. He gives you no option that takes into account the idea that it is not a certainty that the created will rebel against and destroy the creator. Period. He tells you that in order to stop synthetics from destroying you, you will be destroyed. What the hell has he been drinking? Major stupidity.

The fate of the galaxy is of prime concern, always was or Shepard could have just flown off to greener pastures. We aren't talking about the whole universe here, just the universe s/he lives in. The universe/story within ME. The ending in no way keeps faith with how you've played the game, what is said within the game, nor does it follow good story structure. It falls off a cliff and drags you with it. Shepard is neutered and rendered mute.

I disagree, if you chose the Destruction ending, you are making a point against Star Child's logic.

The Logic of the Star child, no matter if it is a single very powerful Being or just the voice of the race who build the Reapers, is that on a certain point, the Organic Species need to be destroyed, because elsewise they will build synthetic's who will ultimately erase ALL organic life from the Galaxy. (The Reapers only erase advances organic species, so organic life can carry on.)
This logic leads to the Reapers and the amount of atrocity they committed in countless cycles.

It is imho a flawed logic, because, I agree with you, it is not a given outcome, surely not now, after the Organic Races know about this danger.
So when his logic is flawed, then what he says is not the ultimate truth and as I stated before, you have at least one choice to resist his opinion. (I personally think the control ending is the second one, but that's a matter of opinion.)

3DandBeyond wrote...
Substitution of the star kid as antagonist instead of the reapers is really poor story telling. Even if you figure there must have been someone pulling reaper strings all along. Though even within ME1 and ME2, you are pointed to the reapers as the ultimate bad guys and Harbinger is their voice.

That's also a matter of opinion, and I don't think it is poor storytelling, still I'm not far away from you here. I would liked the Reapers as antagonist in the endgame too. (And the Builders of the Reapers as antagonist in ME4) But that was Biowares decision and as I said, I don't have a problem with Star Child.

3DandBeyond wrote...
You are entitled to your opinion and great kudos to you for doing so in a very decent way. We can agree to disagree.

I guess we have to, and I return the compliment.

Edit: typo

Modifié par Holger1405, 04 mai 2012 - 05:15 .

[darkway1]

LiarasShield wrote...

they don't even have a real base to go on to make a me4 I mean maybe with thee extended dlc they maybe be able to find some area to fit in but again right now they do not have enough to make a me4 and a lot of fans aren't gonna be happy about getting some random person we have either never seen before or play as before

I kinda like the idea of playing someone new in the mass universe.........new people to meet,new adventures,new LI's and there's no reason why you can't bump into some of the old crew as long as it's in the same time line.

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

and no thanatos people have given decent explanations in full paragrap detail and all you do is say their wrong sometimes more then not not evening giving decent reasons as to why they may be wrong other then they're wrong so man the one who is the most offensive is still pretty much you lol

But I have....A mutitude of times. You arnd many like you just ignore them and change the subject.