23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Lioneli]

And why people think that the ending won't be changed? Who said that? Oh Bioware! Oh I see. Are they not the same guys that said that we will have 16 DIFFERENT endigs? Or promised that there is no way that mass effect can end this A,B,C choises? Should I countinue? I hope they will follow the same path here:)

[bengolly]

AmstradHero wrote...

@Archonsg
I understand that, but I contend that you're only looking at it from a single perspective. Had Bioware released the game, waited a month, then announced "The Truth" ending DLC for free as a hint that IT was in fact correct, then released it one month more later, it would have been a triumph of storytelling.

That would not by any means change the fact that it would have been a rather rude stunt to pull on players and robbed those without good internet access the ability to experience the "real" ending. I am not denying that from an advertising vs product and consumer point of view, that many customers would (rightfully) be annoyed.

However, with the ending we have been given (and will be given), those promises about choice and vastly different endings will still not be met, and we'll be left with an unsatisfying and inconsistent ending. Indoctrination Theory is NOT BioWare's ending, and thus all the errors in the current ending will not be fixed.

Indoctrination Theory would have offered a viable solution to the poorly written ending in a fashion that would have been a brilliant move from a literary and storytelling perspective. I would have been annoyed at being hoodwinked, but the impact of that reveal and the associated meaning would have been more than worth it.

If you disagree, then by all means, you are entitled to that opinion, but again, I contend that from a storytelling perspective (and that's the primary reason I played the series), it would have been sublime.

I suspect you are right that Bioware will not choose to respect players by actually making new endings that are "wildly different" or even based on player choices.  They will probably just add more final battle cinematics, add clarity about starchild's stupid logic so that it makes some semblance of sense, and add closure about what happens to each character (including how they got to where they are in the the nonsensical Normandy ending).

I bet the reason for this is that they are planning a new ME franchise.  To do this they had to ignore their promises (which, if that is the case, they should never have made) and railroad players into endings similar enough to have a common starting point.

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

That's the thing, the biggest problem with IT. It's not an ending, it's an explanation for the one we have, which we shouldn't have. It makes more sense than anything as an explanation for the current mess, because it has actual things within the 3 games that it can point to as a basis.

Oily shadows, there swirling around them when they meet TIM.
Suspension of reality, there.
Headaches, buzzing, noises, there.
Dreams, there.
Control (by someone else, not TIM), there.

And much more. But, what it does more than anything else is explain why Shepard would do what Shepard did and the vision of the star kid.

The problems with IT are varied but tangible as well. It does mean they purposely released an unfinished game without saying it was unfinished (but many of us feel that is what we have even without indoctrination), and that they've needlessly created or helped foster animosity between themselves and some fans. The thing is if it was that we were being punk'd, they needed to let us in on the joke within an appropriate amount of time and in no uncertain terms. That time and chance has passed. No matter what they intended to do, and that end blue "buy more DLC" indicates there was always something planned, they should have come out with that "gotcha" moment before now.

Excellent and well thought-out post, the only reason I would entertain IT is that since it’s all in Shep’s mind, none of that nonsense would’ve ever happened. Therefore one of the darkest episodes in the ME series would’ve never happened: the shooting of Anderson.
 
That’s the event that bothers me the most about the ending. Shepard losing control of his actions, pointing his gun at his friend and mentor and pulling the trigger. The only reason Anderson is dead is because Shepard shut him, there is no way around that. Since when the strong willed Shepard can lose his will and become a Reapers/Starchild lackey? Most disheartening is just standing by and watch it all happening without the option of doing anything about it.
 
Since the Reapers/Starchild can control Shepard in such a way, why not make him blow his own brains out?...problem solved, lets get to the next cycle….just a thought….

[Archonsg]

darkway1 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@amstradhero
I am not being harsh. You see, I am looking at this from the point of a consumer. Did you pay xxx amount of dollars, being told specifically what said product will have "Endings vastly different, being dependant on the choices ai have made and a finale that will close this chapter of the Mass Effect story arc, with most of the important questions answered."

I posted that particular post based on that view simply because this is a consumer / vendor relationship issue. You paid for something. Vendor gives you a product. Did you get what you paid for?
In the case of ME3, this issue is compounded because it effects 2 other products and the time you have spent in investment on those products. It must be looked upon as a whole.

Bioware, seems more then willing to write off the value of their fan's investment. How much is 5 years, or 120+.- or more hours worth to you?

Heres a concept......I pay half the money now and the other half when the game is finished....sounds fair.

Definitely. Its called episodic game release. Valve did it with its last Half Life release.

But, it has to be on to up and up. X number of episodes, with x number of payment purchases.

ME3 was sold as a "whole" game. Not one where you have to buy other parts to complete it. Or told / discover after you have purchased the item, a month or so later (or in my case almost 9 months later) that the product is incomplete.

@bioware
As a consumer, I often can, and do choose where to spend my money. Games are my prefered form of entertainment, I usually spend in the vicinity of around $3000.00 to $6000.00 not counting hardware yearly on games that me, my wife, and 3 kids play (they get their own console / tv / PCs) Sometimes more if we are on multiple MMO subscriptions, less on leaner years.

With your recent actions and statements, you (Bioware), as a business, have indicated to me, a customer, that I cannot trust you to sell me either software or services as advertised. That having recognized that there is an issue with said product or services, refuse to correct or address the issue and instead chose to take a stance in defense of mentioned incomplete product.


As a fan, and not "just" as a consumer, I am saying, I am making my concerns known and hope that the company whose products I love, will realize that I am not unique and many others like myself, paying fans are dissatisfied. As a fan, my patience is higher then it would be if I was just Joe consumer and would want to give Bioware a chance. So far, it seems to me that Bioware does not care for my business any more.


Remove me as a fan, what do you think a consumer in my place would do?

 
 

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 mai 2012 - 03:13 .

[darkway1]

Archonsg wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@amstradhero
I am not being harsh. You see, I am looking at this from the point of a consumer. Did you pay xxx amount of dollars, being told specifically what said product will have "Endings vastly different, being dependant on the choices ai have made and a finale that will close this chapter of the Mass Effect story arc, with most of the important questions answered."

I posted that particular post based on that view simply because this is a consumer / vendor relationship issue. You paid for something. Vendor gives you a product. Did you get what you paid for?
In the case of ME3, this issue is compounded because it effects 2 other products and the time you have spent in investment on those products. It must be looked upon as a whole.

Bioware, seems more then willing to write off the value of their fan's investment. How much is 5 years, or 120+.- or more hours worth to you?

Heres a concept......I pay half the money now and the other half when the game is finished....sounds fair.

Definitely. Its called episodic game release. Valve did it with its last Half Life release.

But, it has to be on to up and up. X number of episodes, with x number of payment purchases.

ME3 was sold as a "whole" game. Not one where you have to buy other parts to complete it. Or told / discover after you have purchased the item, a month or so later (or in my case almost 9 months later) that the product is incomplete.

@bioware
As a consumer, I often can, and do choose where to spend my money. Games are my prefered form of entertainment, I usually spend in the vicinity of around $3000.00 to $6000.00 not counting hardware yearly on games that me, my wife, and 3 kids play (they get their own console / tv / PCs) Sometimes more if we are on multiple MMO subscriptions, less on leaner years.

With your recent actions and statements, you (Bioware), as a business, have indicated to me, a customer, that I cannot trust you to sell me either software or services as advertised. That having recognized that there is an issue with said product or services, refuse to correct or address the issue and instead chose to take a stance in defense of mentioned incomplete product.


As a fan, and not "just" as a consumer, I am saying, I am making my concerns known and hope that the company whose products I love, will realize that I am not unique and many others like myself, paying fans are dissatisfied. As a fan, my patience is higher then it would be if I was just Joe consumer and would want to give Bioware a chance. So far, it seems to me that Bioware does not care for my business any more.


Remove me as a fan, what do you think a consumer in my place would do?

 
 

I'm pretty much in the same boat,I phone around for cheaper insurance,hell I'll shop at a different super market because they sell my coffee brand cheaper..........why should the video game industy expect to be treated any differently.

Think about it......what if you bought a book and the last chapter was a load of rubish that made no sense.....would it get book of the year,book of the month.......art or not,it would be slammed.

Modifié par darkway1, 07 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[Lioneli]

Good news???
On her personal Twitter account, Tricia Helfer, the voice of EDI, stated she would be returning to the recording studio on May 7. She did not state, at the time, if it would be for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC.
 
Raphael Sbarge, the voice of Kaidan Alenko, released a similar comment stating that the Mass Effect 3 voice acting studio just kept pulling him back in. Again, no mention of whether it was for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC or for other, future DLC. 
 
Today, May 6, Mike Gamble confirmed on Twitter that the voice actors are returning to record for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC and that not all the voice actors are connected with Twitter or announcing when they are coming in for recording. Rest assured Mike Meer and Jennifer Hale, the voices of Shepard, will be recording along with all the squadmates. 

[Holger1405]

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
I like the ending because it gives a explanation for the Reapers and their actions, a explanation which is, at least imho, sound, thereby not taking away any achievements of Shepard in the three Games and leave the door open for another ME Game, in a different setting.

Fair enough. Personally, I found that the explanation for the purpose of the Reapers completely undermined the persona and place in the universe that had been created for them by the rest of the series. For a race of beings who repeatedly insisted that they and their purpose were beyond our understanding, they were merely an embodiment of a extremely common and mundane science fiction trope. Again, this means that the ending feels terribly derivative and out of place.

Exactly that statement "were beyond our understanding" raised my fears that Bioware wouldn't bother to give a explanation for the Reapers at all. So I'm just glad they did. I hope they will give further explanation about this matter in the DLC or, preferred, in a new ME Game, but that is Bioware's decision. 
Is this certain explanation "extremely common and mundane"? Maybe, but this is up to everyone's Opinion.   

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
I like it precisely because it didn't answers all questions, leaves something to the imagination of the Player. I think I don't have to tell you how many great works of fiction with open endings are out there.

Effectively you're saying that "the ending is good because it leaves questions to be answered". While I understand this sentiment and agree that open endings are not objectively bad, there has to be a specific reason they are created. Stories that allow people to interpret and postulate about future possibilities and effects can be great, but this needs to be done from a sense of a meaningful thematic closure.

What literary purpose does an open-ending serve that fits thematically with the rest of the series? The endings either dictate:
A) The rise of organics, and the potential for their destruction at the hands of synthetics (destroy)
The rise of organics, through the irrevocable subjugation of synthetics (control)
C) The rise of a new super-species through "synthesis". (lucky door number 3)

The problem is that these offer little open ended thematic discussion of value based on the context of the entire three series:

First we have to point out what exactly is the "context of the entire three series" for us?
For me, the overlying Storyline of the Mass Effect Series is the attempt to stop the Reapers from erasing every advanced Organic life, or in flippant words: Let's stop the damn cycle! In this context I refer to the endings.   

AmstradHero wrote...
Destroy renders reconciliation with the Geth/EDI moot, which many considered an emotional and thematic high point of the series.
Control merely maintains a status quo under a new controller, but sparing the current inhabitants of the galaxy (for now)
Synthesis is a new unknown state of existence, which offers no meaningful value or insight for the player because there is no information on which to base a decision/discussion.

The problem is that there is no overriding message, theme, or premise that is espoused by any of the endings that has been set up in any meaningful way by the rest of the series. This is what I mean by a literary explanation of why something is good. The ending says "robots will kill non-robots", but this is not established in a meaningful fashion by the series except by the antagonists themselves, so to suddenly have them exist to prevent that very thing from happen is an inconsistency that renders that premise worthless.

Imho the whole Point of Mass Effect IS to kill the Robots a.k.a the Reapers, at least my Shepard, a.k.a. I saw, due to the amount of atrocities the committed, no other solution. I disagree that the Destruction decision moot's the reconciliation with the Geth/EDI, it's simply show that, under certain circumstances, as in real live (Thankfully not in this extreme) hard decision are inevitable.
I would liked to have a Option not to kill the Geth, I really do, but I can understand why Bioware didn't included that.   
Furthermore the ending only say's "robots will kill non-robots" when you take Stare Childs logic as given fact, which I don't do. 
     
Also Mass Effect always was about decisions. If any other Player go's for a other solution it's her/his prerogative.
I don't think that any of the choices given to you in the end, renders the context of the Series worthless, it's simple shows that Bioware let different Players set different priorities.

AmstradHero wrote...
The endings don't offer a meaningful discussion or premise on which extrapolation can occur, despite this apparently being the entire intent of the endings as created. The fact that the Extended Cut will "answer questions" by adding clarification and epiloguse just undermines the open-ended nature of the endings as provided, taking away what little literary meaning they may have possessed.

I hope that the DLC will provide needed answers, (Why is the Normandy on this Planet?) without taking away the literary meaning. Well we will see.

AmstradHero wrote...
I would state that I 'm glad you're willing to engage in reasoned debate, but so far I'm still left with nothing more of praise for the ending apart from "it explained the Reapers but then left everything afterwards up to my imagination." For me, that's hardly a satisfying ending on a superficial level, and certainly not satisfying on a literary level. Still, you've at least tried, which is more than I can say for any game journalist, or most disappointingly, any employee from BioWare.

I think that the literary level of a Art work is almost always depending on a personal viewpoint. But I'm a Tech oriented Person, in my Work as in my Hobby's, so I am probably the wrong Person to discus that.

Edit: typo and clarification.

Modifié par Holger1405, 07 mai 2012 - 03:56 .

[Holger1405]

Redbelle wrote...

chomicze wrote...

Actually, Bio employees are saying that even Citadel isn't destroyed, and people there were protected by some kinetics barriers. He said, that we should made assumption, that anyone plot related being on Citadel is alive. So, we have to wait, and hopefully we will see in the EC, that we didn't cause massive destruction of everything with our choices. Or we did, if our EMS was horribly low. Don't know.

Really, theorizing now is just pointless, because we simply have none informations about anything after "godchild meeting". Bio is trying to calm us down, saying that there is no system destruction, noone is starving to death, and even Citadel isn't fully destroyed. So, we will wait and we will see.

I heard this too......... but c'mon BW! The citadel blows up 2 times out of 3. And when it does it looks terminal. Lets not forget that the citadel is one of the highest massing structures in ME lore so if the ppl on board survive........ who you never implied were there, how can a kinetic barrier stand up to the destruction of the citadel? The Normandy was given the best barriers in ME2 and even so a flight through destroyed ships beyond the Omega 4 relay nearly took them down.

A better explanation would be that the safe zones doubled as life pods to be ejected in the event of catastrophic collapse of the citadel. They would then be free of the citadel structure, only have to withstand the explosions and run less risk of having the citadels mass collide with them.

Problem is, Citadel hasn't blown up.
You can see a Explosion, but it didn't' destroy the Citadel, the Mass Relay yes, but not the Citadel. 
               

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

Again this series does not need another sequel espically if shepard dies if some random man or woman could do all thee amazing feets that shepard could do then what was ever the point of playing as shepard to begin with the triliogy would be undone or destroyed because it would ruin the whole point of shepard fighting so hard and doing these things if some off the block we don't even know can do the same ****

another random protagonist would make shepards heroism and sacrifice meaningless let alone spawn several sequels that would probably hurt the series or destroy shepard as the protagonist of the mass effect series just a decent ending where plot holes are filled or fixed some with a victory ending where the races can go home or rebuild in another solar system and for our alliances to be shown and how past problems were fixed or taken care of

that is all I really hope to see happen and more adding onto the good destroy ending does shepard live on earth or does he or she still die hopefully they will show that as well

[Holger1405]

Archonsg wrote...

CaptFrost wrote...

I'm sorry, but unless the Indoctrination Theory folks are right (in which case, BRILLIANT on BioWare's part), the ending doesn't deserve to be protected as artistic integrity/quality or somesuch silliness.

Why do people keep saying that if Bioware "punked" us by not including a "complete" ending via IT that its "brilliant?" 

I personally find it repugnant that any company intentionally or not, sold a product that does not have what it advertised to have, and instead played a "practical joke" just so to get a rise out of their customers. Even if this wasn't the intention, it implies that the customer would then have to either buy (if it's not clearly stated that it is free) another product to complete the original product he or she paid for, or, wait and hope that said "complete product" becomes available for free. 

Either way, you GOT AN INCOMPLETE product that you paid for and you are applauding the people who sold you the way it is?
I just don't understand the thought process some of you have.

The ending, even when you don't like it, doesn't make ME3 an incomplete product.

[Holger1405]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Again this series does not need another sequel espically if shepard dies if some random man or woman could do all thee amazing feets that shepard could do then what was ever the point of playing as shepard to begin with the triliogy would be undone or destroyed because it would ruin the whole point of shepard fighting so hard and doing these things if some off the block we don't even know can do the same ****

another random protagonist would make shepards heroism and sacrifice meaningless let alone spawn several sequels that would probably hurt the series or destroy shepard as the protagonist of the mass effect series just a decent ending where plot holes are filled or fixed some with a victory ending where the races can go home or rebuild in another solar system and for our alliances to be shown and how past problems were fixed or taken care of

that is all I really hope to see happen and more adding onto the good destroy ending does shepard live on earth or does he or she still die hopefully they will show that as well

Bioware already set that Shepard can survive, they will not withdraw from that. 

[LiarasShield]

well it has yet to be seen holger a one minute cut to credits with all the relays gone doesn't leave much to imagine great disaster from what has occured that is why I hope this dlc will really fix it and hopefully come out around july

Modifié par LiarasShield, 07 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[Belhawk]

holger, it is more than just Shepard can survive, if u play multi-player. Will the current ME civilization survive? And given what we know, no it can't. Think abt the ending of arrival and the way ME 3 started. That can be the whole galactic civilization. BW said that they aren't changing anything due to Artistic Integrity. They will just explain it to us philistines.

[LiarasShield]

we can go into arrival again once again explaining why the assumption of galactic civilization being destroyed if a destroyed relay can destroy a entire solar system would be avery plausible outcome but like I said I'm not gonna sugar coat a you lose ending with tidbits and speculation when arrival if considered cannon pretty much says a relay can destroy a entire solar system if destroyed even if it is a different supposedly kind of explosion

Again it goes back how the last thing we know is that all the fleets are trapt around a dieing earth I have never played a game with all my heart and have done everything right only to fail hell I can hardly call up another game that brings up a you lose no matter what ending because either

A their are so few of them or B they are not a good thing to give to the player when they seek to succede or win so a completel failure ending after doing everything right wouldn't really be a bright idea

Modifié par LiarasShield, 07 mai 2012 - 04:46 .

[Skye2]

The seamless transitions between gameplay and cutscenes are elegant. I'm also a huge fan of the voice acting in Dragon Age and Mass Effect and it's just as great in ME3. In general what keeps me coming back for more are BW's strong female characters and compelling story and companions.

Modifié par Skye2, 11 mai 2012 - 01:42 .

[Redbelle]

EC DLC News:

http://www.examiner....ctors-recording

[LiarasShield]

Now the rumor spreading around and god i hope it is not true but supposedly the original endings for mass effect 3 were leaked out by someone so they decide to change the endings at the last minute and didn't get enough time to check over it or make sure that is was a ok thing

and also it had something to do with the dark energy mission that you had with tali on me2

[Holger1405]

Belhawk wrote...

holger, it is more than just Shepard can survive, if u play multi-player. Will the current ME civilization survive? And given what we know, no it can't. Think abt the ending of arrival and the way ME 3 started. That can be the whole galactic civilization. BW said that they aren't changing anything due to Artistic Integrity. They will just explain it to us philistines.

I did several Post on that matter, just a few sits back.  

[bengolly]

Lioneli wrote...

Good news???
On her personal Twitter account, Tricia Helfer, the voice of EDI, stated she would be returning to the recording studio on May 7. She did not state, at the time, if it would be for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC.
 
Raphael Sbarge, the voice of Kaidan Alenko, released a similar comment stating that the Mass Effect 3 voice acting studio just kept pulling him back in. Again, no mention of whether it was for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC or for other, future DLC. 
 
Today, May 6, Mike Gamble confirmed on Twitter that the voice actors are returning to record for the Mass Effect 3 ending DLC and that not all the voice actors are connected with Twitter or announcing when they are coming in for recording. Rest assured Mike Meer and Jennifer Hale, the voices of Shepard, will be recording along with all the squadmates. 

Not really news.  We knew these characters were needed to add explanations/closure.  That does not guarantee that Bioware will change the endings to deliver on their fundamental promise:  "wildly different conclusions" based player choices throughout the game.

[LiarasShield]

well no matter what everyone thinks on the ending if your a mass effect fan I think you should listen to these songs





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfelfyV8LwA

[3DandBeyond]

AmstradHero wrote...

Please ignore the person who insists on repeating themselves ad nauseum and adding nothing of value to the discussion. Without attention it will go away.

I think it is illogical.  It wants the discussion to go away, but it returns and posts, thus further extending the life of the discussion.  It is allowing the created to live on.  We will not have to destroy it this cycle.

[chomicze]

@ 3DandBeyond

With fair indulgence. But is seems that arguments are driving it off for circa two pages of discussion, then it comes back. Sadness. Can't do anything about it.

[Benchpress610]

chomicze wrote...

@ 3DandBeyond

With fair indulgence. But is seems that arguments are driving it off for circa two pages of discussion, then it comes back. Sadness. Can't do anything about it.

It’s been coming back for over a month. Its arguments remain today as vapid as the first day. As I’ve posted before, the best remedy is ignoring it.

[Voodoo-j]

Troll wrote...

I like to troll. it makes me happy.

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...

chomicze wrote...

@ 3DandBeyond

With fair indulgence. But is seems that arguments are driving it off for circa two pages of discussion, then it comes back. Sadness. Can't do anything about it.

It’s been coming back for over a month. Its arguments remain today as vapid as the first day. As I’ve posted before, the best remedy is ignoring it.

You are of course very wise, but perhaps we can use it, make it work for us.  It may perhaps perform a function.  I have given it a face name.  It is bubbles.  I will never refer to it directly using it's soul name, but if I need to use a name, it will be bubbles.  I will not quote it either.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 mai 2012 - 07:19 .