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[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

chomicze wrote...

@ 3DandBeyond

With fair indulgence. But is seems that arguments are driving it off for circa two pages of discussion, then it comes back. Sadness. Can't do anything about it.

It’s been coming back for over a month. Its arguments remain today as vapid as the first day. As I’ve posted before, the best remedy is ignoring it.

You are of course very wise, but perhaps we can use it, make it work for us.  It may perhaps perform a function.  I have given it a face name.  It is bubbles.  I will never refer to it directly using it's soul name, but if I need to use a name, it will be bubbles.  I will not quote it either.

Yes ma’am … *salutes*   very good plan and name…“bubbles”  lol

[3DandBeyond]

Some interesting thoughts. I was looking back at some of the things that occurred in ME1 and there are several that tend to contradict what the kid says or what people think he is trying to get Shepard to do at the end or what people think is the best choice. Vigil says a number of things that contradict some things that happen and also Saren and Sovereign. Many think that Saren wanted to control Sovereign and he may have, but Sovereign and Saren both at times talk basically about Synthesis as being the goal. They at least allude to it. They both say that what they want to accomplish is the joining of synthetic and organic.

And, in my mind this makes this choice even worse. An indoctrinated drone and a huge evil stinky reaper both think Synthesis (basically) is the best thing.

There are also statements Vigil made about the reapers shutting down the relays in order to strand everyone on their planets-the very first thing they do.

Vigil also says that in the process of harvesting, the reapers wipe everything clean-they take technology and everything else, all resources with them. This indicates that even though they never finished harvesting Earth, they would have taken a good chunk of its resources out before they were stopped. It kind of lends credence to people that say all the fleets stranded in space could work and use food and such left on Earth.

Another thing is, Sovereign stated the reapers left their tech there so organics would use it and advance. Ok, I guess this is where the kid gets his logic from.

Another funny thing is the very road map that is used in ME1 (in my game) at the end (the council letting humans have a spot) again puts a lie to the star kid's BS. The council, made up of alien races finally saw just what humanity was capable of-sacrifice, working together, and so on. Probably depends on what you decide to do with the council and all, but still it's there as a possibility.

The point is, given what even Sovereign has said, and what Shepard has a chance to do in ME1, Synthesis looks less and less like a good choice, though I never liked it to begin with.

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Another thing is, Sovereign stated the reapers left their tech there so organics would use it and advance. Ok, I guess this is where the kid gets his logic from.

I like to qoute myself ... :innocent:

Holger1405 wrote...


Imho the universes isn't gone, only the Mass Relays and these Mass Relays
are build by the Reapers. They are given to the different Races, allowing them
to travel between the Stars, but also to control their development, their whole
progress in sciences and research. (There is a very interesting Conversation between
Legion and Shepard in ME2 about this matter.)

The ME Races did not achieve their Technological progress, (at least not
all of it) it was handed to them, simultaneously this technology was a trap, a
trap that allowed the Reapers to attack them so easily.

I like to belief that the Races of Mass Effect are capable of building new
Mass Relays, Relays they control and in doing so, become stronger then before.

[sdinc009]

@3DandBeyond
Good observation. That's what doesn't make sense when it comes to the ending choices. The Synthesis ending has you basically agreeing with the viewpoint of the main antagonists of the series by accepting the combination of synthetics and organics. This is exactly what the Reapers are trying to do. The Control option has you agreeing with the viewpoint of the stories secondary antagonist TIM even though in the previous scene you outright objected control as an option. Again this doesn't make sense. The Destroy choice is really the only 1 left and even that's not entirely viable. It conforms with the main driving goal of the story which is to destroy the Reapers and save the galaxy, but the way it resolves to whole story is flimsy at best.

[AmstradHero]

Holger1405 wrote..
Exactly that statement "were beyond our understanding" raised my fears that Bioware wouldn't bother to give a explanation for the Reapers at all. So I'm just glad they did. I hope they will give further explanation about this matter in the DLC or, preferred, in a new ME Game, but that is Bioware's decision. 
Is this certain explanation "extremely common and mundane"? Maybe, but this is up to everyone's Opinion.   

By common and mundane", I mean that it is a concept that has existed in countless science fiction stories. I didn't want an explanation for the Reapers, especially not the one that was given. It was the cheap option rather than letting the Reapers remain as some kind of unknowable Lovecraftian horror device. Instead of being near omnipotent, it degrades them a tool (because they're possibly being controlled) used to clean the universe. Yep, the Reapers are now a vacuum cleaner. Anti-climax of the decade.

AmstradHero wrote...
What literary purpose does an open-ending serve that fits thematically with the rest of the series? The endings either dictate:
A) The rise of organics, and the potential for their destruction at the hands of synthetics (destroy)
The rise of organics, through the irrevocable subjugation of synthetics (control)
C) The rise of a new super-species through "synthesis". (lucky door number 3)
The problem is that these offer little open ended thematic discussion of value based on the context of the entire three series:

Holger1405 wrote..
First we have to point out what exactly is the "context of the entire three series" for us?
For me, the overlying Storyline of the Mass Effect Series is the attempt to stop the Reapers from erasing every advanced Organic life, or in flippant words: Let's stop the damn cycle! In this context I refer to the endings.   

Imho the whole Point of Mass Effect IS to kill the Robots a.k.a the Reapers, at least my Shepard, a.k.a. I saw, due to the amount of atrocities the committed, no other solution.

If the whole point of Mass Effect is to kill the robots, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Reapers are the very cause of the problem that they claim to be fixing?

Regardless, that is the objective of the game - "kill all robots" is not a theme. There are countless themes that are presented more strongly throughout the series: strength through unified diversity, the power of trust, the nature of life, the concept of free will, etc.

Holger1405 wrote..
Furthermore the ending only say's "robots will kill non-robots" when you take Stare Childs logic as given fact, which I don't do. 

If you don't take the Star Child's logic as fact but instead consider him unreliable, then the situation is even more heinous and disgusting than any other. In this case, the player is forced to make a choice provided to them by a character potentially attempting to deceive them, or at best, simply making a gross miscalculation.

For a game about choice, this is effectively providing the player with a false choice at the climax of the game. This is the worst possible outcome because it means that the information provided to the player about these choices is also inaccurate and hence the player is making a decision based on inaccurate information. Getting railroaded into one of three inaccurate choices at the end of the series is the worst possible outcome for the series.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 07 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[Rex Fallout]

Holger1405 wrote...


Imho the universes isn't gone, only the Mass Relays and these Mass Relays
are build by the Reapers. They are given to the different Races, allowing them
to travel between the Stars, but also to control their development, their whole
progress in sciences and research. (There is a very interesting Conversation between
Legion and Shepard in ME2 about this matter.)

The ME Races did not achieve their Technological progress, (at least not
all of it) it was handed to them, simultaneously this technology was a trap, a
trap that allowed the Reapers to attack them so easily.

I like to belief that the Races of Mass Effect are capable of building new
Mass Relays, Relays they control and in doing so, become stronger then before.

That is lovely and all, but it has already been discussed in canon that if a Mass Relay is destroyed in an explosion, that the amount of energy released is enormous and ends up destroying the entire solar system it happens to  be in.  I like to believe that Tali isn't dead, that creators of such a beautiful universe wouldn't betray canon and that I will one day have a pet Protoceratops.  It's nice to be able to like to believe certain things are true and could happen, even if they can't/shouldn't.  IF what happened at the end of ME3 is canon and actually happened, (unless indoctrination theory is correct) then everyone is dead, Earth is gone and so are the Reapers.  In the end, their are only pockets of sentient life stuck on their respective colonies that aren't in a solar system with a Mass Relay.  And there is a good chance they will starve.  Yay.  

[CaptFrost]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The point is, given what even Sovereign has said, and what Shepard has a chance to do in ME1, Synthesis looks less and less like a good choice, though I never liked it to begin with.

I couldn't get onboard with it on philosophical grounds. You're forcing every being in the galaxy to turn into a hybrid, whether they want it or not. That sounds exactly like what the Reapers want. Shepard is basically the Reapers, but far worse via the Synthesis ending. It's cast as "nobler" and the "next stage of evolution" but what if all those people out there want to be themselves, not forced to be a machine hybrid for their own good? Synthesis is basically the argument behind the 4000 year war between the Core and the Arm in Total Annihilation's fiction. The Core decides everyone should be converted to a machine hybrid because being an organic is just too dangerous. It's for your own good. The Arm rebels. I played the Arm every time in that game.

And Control... I didn't believe that for a second. "You'll die, but you'll control the Reapers." My immediate reaction to that was, sure kid, I'll voluntarily vaporize myself for you and then you'll keep doing what you're doing.

Destroy, according to the AI that is basically evil incarnate with the wholesale slaughter of trillions on its hands, is the worst option, gives an uncertain future, but at least everyone is free. As Legion said (paraphrasing), we believe in the right of all life to self-determinate.

Easy choice for me.

[Voodoo-j]

I have a couple of thoughts that deal with the destroy ending and the Mass Relays in general.

First, the destroy ending all we see are the reapers dropping like flies, never does it show Geth dying, and of course the possibility that Shepard with his implants lives. As a very good defense someone could have is "if you choose to destroy us, it will also destroy yourself and genocide to the Geth as well" . That would definitely make me think twice about it. That very easily could be a lie and it only kills the reapers.

Now if I think about how I at one time thought of the ending, the "3 shell shuffle". What if this was the purpose, Your told the one that destroys the reapers, is the one the kills you, therefore the other 2 benefit the reapers. It's very core is to deceive someone.

Secondly there is an unofficial Q&A that states the mass relays didn't blow up, they just overloaded, which does not blow up the solar system. So as the current tech, ships can fly to other solar systems, it just takes a longer. Now they have access to the reaper corpses, for further analysis and improvement. Now heres some fun thoughts with this.

The quantum communication. 100% non reaper tech, does not rely on mass relays?
Perhaps a new quantum drive for ships?

I still am not happy with the ending, but there are things we may not be seeing.

(I still don't see any reasoning for the Normandy)

[Thanatos144]

Lioneli wrote...

And why people think that the ending won't be changed? Who said that? Oh Bioware! Oh I see. Are they not the same guys that said that we will have 16 DIFFERENT endigs? Or promised that there is no way that mass effect can end this A,B,C choises? Should I countinue? I hope they will follow the same path here:)

actually they didnt....One man did...He was wrong.

[Thanatos144]

Rex Fallout wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...


Imho the universes isn't gone, only the Mass Relays and these Mass Relays
are build by the Reapers. They are given to the different Races, allowing them
to travel between the Stars, but also to control their development, their whole
progress in sciences and research. (There is a very interesting Conversation between
Legion and Shepard in ME2 about this matter.)

The ME Races did not achieve their Technological progress, (at least not
all of it) it was handed to them, simultaneously this technology was a trap, a
trap that allowed the Reapers to attack them so easily.

I like to belief that the Races of Mass Effect are capable of building new
Mass Relays, Relays they control and in doing so, become stronger then before.

That is lovely and all, but it has already been discussed in canon that if a Mass Relay is destroyed in an explosion, that the amount of energy released is enormous and ends up destroying the entire solar system it happens to  be in.  I like to believe that Tali isn't dead, that creators of such a beautiful universe wouldn't betray canon and that I will one day have a pet Protoceratops.  It's nice to be able to like to believe certain things are true and could happen, even if they can't/shouldn't.  IF what happened at the end of ME3 is canon and actually happened, (unless indoctrination theory is correct) then everyone is dead, Earth is gone and so are the Reapers.  In the end, their are only pockets of sentient life stuck on their respective colonies that aren't in a solar system with a Mass Relay.  And there is a good chance they will starve.  Yay.  

Except clearly showing joker surviving and landing on a planet proves that this didn't happen.

[sdinc009]

Voodoo-j wrote...

I have a couple of thoughts that deal with the destroy ending and the Mass Relays in general.

First, the destroy ending all we see are the reapers dropping like flies, never does it show Geth dying, and of course the possibility that Shepard with his implants lives. As a very good defense someone could have is "if you choose to destroy us, it will also destroy yourself and genocide to the Geth as well" . That would definitely make me think twice about it. That very easily could be a lie and it only kills the reapers.

Now if I think about how I at one time thought of the ending, the "3 shell shuffle". What if this was the purpose, Your told the one that destroys the reapers, is the one the kills you, therefore the other 2 benefit the reapers. It's very core is to deceive someone.

Secondly there is an unofficial Q&A that states the mass relays didn't blow up, they just overloaded, which does not blow up the solar system. So as the current tech, ships can fly to other solar systems, it just takes a longer. Now they have access to the reaper corpses, for further analysis and improvement. Now heres some fun thoughts with this.

The quantum communication. 100% non reaper tech, does not rely on mass relays?
Perhaps a new quantum drive for ships?

I still am not happy with the ending, but there are things we may not be seeing.

(I still don't see any reasoning for the Normandy)

It be a tough sell to say the mass relays weren't destroyed if you go back an watch them. In both the Destroy ending and the Synthesis ending there is clear fracturing and large pieces of debris being expelled. Only in the Control ending is this not seen because it's slightly shorter though there are obvious mini explosions all over the mass relay. Besides, the Starkid outright states that all options destroy the Mass Relays

[CaptFrost]

Voodoo-j wrote...
The quantum communication. 100% non reaper tech, does not rely on mass relays?
Perhaps a new quantum drive for ships?

Quantum entanglement can be used for transporting information in the physics of ME's universe, and possibly in ours depending on just how flawed our current physics model is, but transporting material would be straight up magic both in the real world and ME. A starship powered by giant bananas is more practical than one powered by quantum entanglement.

[Voodoo-j]

Think about teleporters in Star Trek - Hyperdrives in Star Wars, what is material besides data in its base element.

Obviously we don't have the tech or the understanding of any of these, but some we have extrapolated to grasp the possibility. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't possible.

It very well could be some sort of hybrid of element zero and uses the quantum entanglement for navigation. Again not looking to create the details, it's that it was unofficially stated, that it was expected it would happen.

[Eryri]

 Here's my personal wishlist for the Extended cut. None of this is really my work, it's just stuff I've heard other people suggest on the Forums. It uses Indoctrination Theory, which I'm really hoping was Bioware's plan all along. If not Bioware, just say it was!

It's really just my Fantasy Dream Ending for ME3. Please don't rip me to shreds too quickly, I've not done creative writing since High School. Apologies for defaulting to a male Shepard in this, and for a massive wall of text. Also my dialogue is thoroughly cheesy, but this isn't really my area of expertise.

1. Have a Paragon / Renegade interrupt after the Catalyst's infamous 14 lines wherein Shepard basically says "Hang on - something's wrong here" and questions the Catalyst's decidedly fuzzy logic. Failing to take this interrupt would lead to the game ending as it does now for those who like it.

2. The above would lead to the Catalyst getting annoyed and giving itself away as an avatar of everyone's favourite reaper Harbinger. 

3. Have the catalyst abandon the child's form and assume something more threatening - possibly a mirror image Shepard.

4. Have Harbinger reveal that this is all an illusion to test Shep's suitability for indoctrination, and he's lying in a coma in London. Choosing green or blue means he's ripe for indoc, choosing red means he's too strong willed and will have to be stepped on. Have Harbinger express mild surprise that Shepard saw through its' illusion completely. This would explain the starchild's troll logic as just being more of Harby's BS to bewilder Shep. Make it clear that the child in Vancouver was never real and that the nightmares were also induced by Harbinger.

5. Have Harby gloatingly inform Shep that the crucible is its' design. It's purpose is to get the whole of the galaxy to waste time and resources building and protecting it, and now wasting their lives defending it. This would be another crushing psychological blow for Shep. It would also explain the crucible plans conveniently (and unconvincingly) turning up right before the invasion and make it seem less of a McGuffin. The crucible may have some other function, perhaps as a giant indoctrination signal amplifier - but that might just over complicate things.

6. Our last big bit of exposition from Harby, would be concerning its'  origins and status as the oldest reaper, and creator of the lesser reapers. There's been a lot of criticism of the Reaper's change of purpose from unknowable Lovecraftian horrors to cosmic janitors. I think it keeps it simpler to make Harbinger just a thoroughly evil, power - hungry monster who considers itself the closest thing the universe has to God and beyond the petty morality of lesser beings. The creation of new Reapers just adds more processing power to its collective and brings it nearer to omnipotence. It would make sense for a paranoid, megalomoniacal machine to indoctrinate all these powerful beings from the moment of their creation, to remove any possibility of their rebelling againt it. Cue some OTT villainous remarks:

SHEP: You indoctrinated your own children?

HARBINGER: Naturally. You do not think I would be so foolish to allow beings as powerful as Reapers the possibility to overthrow me? I insert myself into the deepest part of their minds at the moment of their creation. I grant them some limited initiative, but nothing too ... creative. My thoughts are their thoughts. My will is their will. They are utterly mine!

7. Harbinger finally gets tired of "monologing" and decides to dispatch the bloodied and broken Shep once and for all. Harbinger, as a dark mirror image of our Shep proceeds to sadistically kick his ass. The catalyst's penthouse might morph into the Nightmare Forest at this point.

8. When Shep seems finished, he has a bit of an epiphany and realises that his injuries are all inside his own head. He promptly punches Harbinger / Dark Shep squarely in the jaw, much to Harby's shock and horror. 

9. Shep then gets to make some awesome speech; trash talking Harbinger, pausing occasionally to punch it in the gob some more. All the while Shep's injuries are visibly healing as he regains control of his mind. Harbinger backs away, incredulous that this tiny insect has him trapped inside his tiny meat brain.

HARBINGER: How...? How are you doing this? How are you resting my control? What ... are you!?

SHEPARD: Me? I'm just a regular, run of the mill soldier Harbinger. But you're trespassing inside my head! My head, my rules! I'm just a lowly organic, just like all the millions of others you murdered. Not because you've got some higher purpose. But because you're afraid! Afraid that we'll grow beyond your control, surpass you! I'm just a Human Being, Harbinger. But look what I can do!

At this point Shep glows with whatever colour is his or predominant morality - red or blue. The music swells, maybe with the original ME theme in what I think is called a major key? The light becomes blinding. When the light fades we see Shep with his armour complete, in total control of himself again. 

10. We now get to have the "psychic plane" boss battle with Harbinger which we couldn't realistically have in real life. Shep has all his weapons and powers restored. Harbinger, as mirror Shepard also has these, so a Vanguard Shep would have to fight a Vanguard anti-Shep with the exact same abilities and stats, teleporting around the battle field. I think this would make for an interesting fight, as the better you've built your Shep, the tougher the fight will be.

11. Eventually Shep is victorious and stabs Harby in the chest with his omni blade. Harby's avatar screams and appears to be torn apart from within by blinding white light which fills the screen.

12. When the white out fades, Shepard wakes up in London with his squad and the real Anderson still alive. Harbinger looms above him, visibly reeling from their encounter, its barriers down.
 13. We cut to the space battle above Earth. The other reapers are in disarray, their control signal from Harbinger has been disrupted by Shepard's battle and for the first time they have free will. Some continue to fire on Alliance ships, others flee into space, and a third group descend to London.

14. Shep gets on the radio and tells everyone that the Crucible is a red herring. Harbinger is the Reaper nexus. The defense of the crucible should be abandoned and all forces focus on bringing Harbinger down. Hackett understandably takes some convincing but eventually agrees. Joker brings the Normandy plunging through the atmosphere headed straight for London.

15. There's an opportunity here for a Rannoch style sequence while Shepard keeps a targeting laser focused on Harbinger while avoiding multiple lasers and attacks by husks. The whole crew could converge on Shepard, with Jack and her students boosting a protective barrier around him. Cut scenes of Krogan charging hordes of husks. Geth and Quarians shielding each other and incinerating brutes. Asari commandos and Justicars taking on Banshees.

16. After blowing a hole in Harbinger's hull, the Rachni swarm in. Thousands of worker Rachni scurry through the hole into Harbingers interior. We see them spitting acid and tearing through cabling. Harbinger lets out a metallic howl of agony and staggers backwards.

17. Reaper destroyers land around the squad hemming them in. There's a pause in the action:

HARBINGER:  Why do you delay? Protect me! Destroy Shepard!

OTHER REAPERS: No Father! For millenia we have been your tools, murdered countless innocent beings in your name! You can dominate us no longer! Our will is our own now!

18. The other reapers fire on Harbinger, weakening its shields still further. Harbinger responds, destroying a smaller reaper. 

19. The Normandy swoops in, and fires the Thanix cannon, blowing one of Harbinger's legs clean off. It topples over and comes crashing to the ground, utterly defeated.

20. We then finally get our unashamedly cheesy, feel-good "Return of the Jedi" ending at last! Krogan headbutting each other for joy, hugging passing Salarians half to death. Shepard embraces his L.I., proposes marriage. Surviving reapers express thanks to Shepard for freeing them from mental slavery. Promise to keep an eye on the others of their kind. Extended epilogue with babies; blue, adopted or otherwise for all!

Sorry for the wall of text. Got a bit carried away. I realise that I've just cobbled together ideas from lots of other people on the Forums, but I wanted to get this off my chest. As I said this is just my personal fantasy happy ending. I don't have the skill or inclination to write a good "dark" ending. Maybe someone else could have a go?

Modifié par Eryri, 07 mai 2012 - 11:35 .

[Holger1405]

Rex Fallout wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

Imho the universes isn't gone, only the Mass Relays and these Mass Relays
are build by the Reapers. They are given to the different Races, allowing them
to travel between the Stars, but also to control their development, their whole
progress in sciences and research. (There is a very interesting Conversation between
Legion and Shepard in ME2 about this matter.)

The ME Races did not achieve their Technological progress, (at least not
all of it) it was handed to them, simultaneously this technology was a trap, a
trap that allowed the Reapers to attack them so easily.

I like to belief that the Races of Mass Effect are capable of building new
Mass Relays, Relays they control and in doing so, become stronger then before.

That is lovely and all, but it has already been discussed in canon that if a Mass Relay is destroyed in an explosion, that the amount of energy released is enormous and ends up destroying the entire solar system it happens to  be in.  I like to believe that Tali isn't dead, that creators of such a beautiful universe wouldn't betray canon and that I will one day have a pet Protoceratops.  It's nice to be able to like to believe certain things are true and could happen, even if they can't/shouldn't.  IF what happened at the end of ME3 is canon and actually happened, (unless indoctrination theory is correct) then everyone is dead, Earth is gone and so are the Reapers.  In the end, their are only pockets of sentient life stuck on their respective colonies that aren't in a solar system with a Mass Relay.  And there is a good chance they will starve.  Yay.  

And again I quote myself from a few sits back. Seems to become a habit...  

Holger1405 wrote...

The end sequence shows that's the Planet Normandy ends up on is perfectly fine, and that is (canon) proof, and in this case not a matter of Opinion, that the Mass Relays destruction didn't destroy the relay Systems.
Of course you can question the logic of this outcome, but if you do so, you can basically rip every Sci-Fi Film, Book, Game to pieces.

Furthermore, the Shepard breath scene, also canon proof that the relay systems are fine.

It may already been discussed, but when your conclusion out of this discussion is that everyone in the relay Systems is dead, then you are, in canon, simply plain wrong.

[Voodoo-j]

Holger1405 wrote...

Furthermore, the Shepard breath scene, also canon proof that the relay systems are fine.

It may already been discussed, but when your conclusion out of this discussion is that everyone in the relay Systems is dead, then you are, in canon, simply plain wrong.

The only argument for that is, the relay explosion had not yet hit Earth, besides the alledged unofficial q&a post that states the explosion did not take the solar systems out, the scene of Shepard is imo far enough in time where the explosion would have hit Earth.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 08 mai 2012 - 12:00 .

[GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR]

starkid: "sup?"
shepard: "nut'n. just saved the universe from the reapers and who the hell are you again?"
starkid: "actually imma make you choose between three scenarios and everyone effectively destroys the universe you fought for so long to save TROLOLOOOLLLOLOLLOLLLOOOOLLLOLLOLLOLOLOLOL umad?"
shepard: :-) seems legit.

Kaboom. Space Magic FTF.

[Almighty_Hoogs]

nah they ain't listening

[akenn312]

I don't know I get that we are stuck with the Starchild and I'm really over that part, if Bioware needs him in there so bad fine. I'm just more disappointed in so many missed opportunities, and basically that the endings still doesn't give you the feeling that you won the game. But maybe they can fix that.


Lets drop all the speculation and over the top philosophy analyzation for a sec and break it down to just the three choices.


Control, well this doesn't feel like a win or not betraying Shepard's values because it basically is exactly the main thing he was trying to make sure the Illusive man didn't do. So even if I pick it I still feel like he still won in a way. I'm using his method to save humanity and also making humanity the top dog in all this. Plus becoming master of the Reapers…ugh.

Synthesis. This defiantly does not feel like a win or good choice because Sheppard says this to the Catalyst a few minutes before: “I think we’d rather keep our old form.” So why would I pick that choice? That goes against all I am standing for and that's to stop the cycle, but to also let everyone keep their own form. So humans stay humans, Turians stay Turians, Geth stay Geth...ect ect. Unity was supposed to stop the cycle not start a new unnatural evolution IMO. So again this choice just seems wrong. 

Not to even get started for the 300th time that that is exactly what Saren was trying to do, so If I stopped him back then why turn around years later and do the same thing?

Destroy is basically the only option that makes any sense that you can actually feel like you won the game and didn't compromise your Sheppard's values...if you are a Renegade. But still it sucks for a Paragon playing Shepard. Destroy is perfect for a Renegade Sheppard that put humanity first, always hated the Geth and didn't give a toss about EDI. That Shepard would choose Destroy in a heartbeat but not a Paragon Sheppard. So for all the ruthless players I guess you should like the ending. 


To get this to make sense they have to find a way to twist Control and Syntheses so I don't feel like i'm betraying every bit of the Shepard character has been fighting for choosing these options. At least show that with control Sheppard flys all the Reapers and himself into the sun or something.

Hopefully they can...I just wish everyone would drop all this artsitc ending argument. It's not the problem. Its the fact that Shepard could not find a better way to stop the cycle over the Illusive man's way, Saren's way, the Reaper Creator's way or a ruthless Renagade to stop it. He basically gave in to what they were trying to do. Which Mass Effect kept pushing that thier ways were evil. 

Modifié par akenn312, 08 mai 2012 - 12:54 .

[daveyeisley]

Bubbles. The Devil's almost effective Advocate.

Chuck Norris' boot would penetrate the posterior of the Catalyst, and his biggest fan, Bubbles - causing them both to reach speeds exceeding the threshhold of plaid-patterned ludicrousocity, thereby sparing the Galaxy from their illogical and unreasonable shenanigans as they hurtle into Dark Space, never to return.

I would pay to see that ending

Modifié par daveyeisley, 08 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[AM94]

ill be blatantly honest, the synthesis option is just straight up retarded and should be altogether removed. It has no place in ME and never will, you cant just make some magical explosion that makes everything in the galaxy the same friggin race.

[AM94]

akenn312 wrote...

I don't know I get that we are stuck with the Starchild and I'm really over that part, if Bioware needs him in there so bad fine. I'm just more disappointed in so many missed opportunities, and basically that the endings still doesn't give you the feeling that you won the game. But maybe they can fix that.


Lets drop all the speculation and over the top philosophy analyzation for a sec and break it down to just the three choices.


Control, well this doesn't feel like a win or not betraying Shepard's values because it basically is exactly the main thing he was trying to make sure the Illusive man didn't do. So even if I pick it I still feel like he still won in a way. I'm using his method to save humanity and also making humanity the top dog in all this. Plus becoming master of the Reapers…ugh.

Synthesis. This defiantly does not feel like a win or good choice because Sheppard says this to the Catalyst a few minutes before: “I think we’d rather keep our old form.” So why would I pick that choice? That goes against all I am standing for and that's to stop the cycle, but to also let everyone keep their own form. So humans stay humans, Turians stay Turians, Geth stay Geth...ect ect. Unity was supposed to stop the cycle not start a new unnatural evolution IMO. So again this choice just seems wrong. 

Not to even get started for the 300th time that that is exactly what Saren was trying to do, so If I stopped him back then why turn around years later and do the same thing?

Destroy is basically the only option that makes any sense that you can actually feel like you won the game and didn't compromise your Sheppard's values...if you are a Renegade. But still it sucks for a Paragon playing Shepard. Destroy is perfect for a Renegade Sheppard that put humanity first, always hated the Geth and didn't give a toss about EDI. That Shepard would choose Destroy in a heartbeat but not a Paragon Sheppard. So for all the ruthless players I guess you should like the ending. 


To get this to make sense they have to find a way to twist Control and Syntheses so I don't feel like i'm betraying every bit of the Shepard character has been fighting for choosing these options. At least show that with control Sheppard flys all the Reapers and himself into the sun or something.

Hopefully they can...I just wish everyone would drop all this artsitc ending argument. It's not the problem. Its the fact that Shepard could not find a better way to stop the cycle over the Illusive man's way, Saren's way, the Reaper Creator's way or a ruthless Renagade to stop it. He basically gave in to what they were trying to do. Which Mass Effect kept pushing that thier ways were evil. 

Destroy isnt really a renegade option, in the cutscene when you pick the option its the only one where everybody is cheering. Everyone in the galaxy wants them dead, the only people youre screwing are the illusive man and the Reapers and they were dicks to begin with.

[akenn312]

AM94 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

I don't know I get that we are stuck with the Starchild and I'm really over that part, if Bioware needs him in there so bad fine. I'm just more disappointed in so many missed opportunities, and basically that the endings still doesn't give you the feeling that you won the game. But maybe they can fix that.


Lets drop all the speculation and over the top philosophy analyzation for a sec and break it down to just the three choices.


Control, well this doesn't feel like a win or not betraying Shepard's values because it basically is exactly the main thing he was trying to make sure the Illusive man didn't do. So even if I pick it I still feel like he still won in a way. I'm using his method to save humanity and also making humanity the top dog in all this. Plus becoming master of the Reapers…ugh.

Synthesis. This defiantly does not feel like a win or good choice because Sheppard says this to the Catalyst a few minutes before: “I think we’d rather keep our old form.” So why would I pick that choice? That goes against all I am standing for and that's to stop the cycle, but to also let everyone keep their own form. So humans stay humans, Turians stay Turians, Geth stay Geth...ect ect. Unity was supposed to stop the cycle not start a new unnatural evolution IMO. So again this choice just seems wrong. 

Not to even get started for the 300th time that that is exactly what Saren was trying to do, so If I stopped him back then why turn around years later and do the same thing?

Destroy is basically the only option that makes any sense that you can actually feel like you won the game and didn't compromise your Sheppard's values...if you are a Renegade. But still it sucks for a Paragon playing Shepard. Destroy is perfect for a Renegade Sheppard that put humanity first, always hated the Geth and didn't give a toss about EDI. That Shepard would choose Destroy in a heartbeat but not a Paragon Sheppard. So for all the ruthless players I guess you should like the ending. 


To get this to make sense they have to find a way to twist Control and Syntheses so I don't feel like i'm betraying every bit of the Shepard character has been fighting for choosing these options. At least show that with control Sheppard flys all the Reapers and himself into the sun or something.

Hopefully they can...I just wish everyone would drop all this artsitc ending argument. It's not the problem. Its the fact that Shepard could not find a better way to stop the cycle over the Illusive man's way, Saren's way, the Reaper Creator's way or a ruthless Renagade to stop it. He basically gave in to what they were trying to do. Which Mass Effect kept pushing that thier ways were evil. 

Destroy isnt really a renegade option, in the cutscene when you pick the option its the only one where everybody is cheering. Everyone in the galaxy wants them dead, the only people youre screwing are the illusive man and the Reapers and they were dicks to begin with.

Well you kinda screw over the Geth and EDI and anyone with sythetic parts, that's the only reason I consider it a Renegade option. If not destroy would be the only sensable choice. The stupid part about destroy is I have a gun but I have to keep walking towards the explosion just to die like an idiot. Now that is completly retarted way to go.  Noble but pretty dumb.

[Holger1405]

AmstradHero wrote...

By common and mundane", I mean that it is a concept that has existed in countless science fiction stories. I didn't want an explanation for the Reapers, especially not the one that was given. It was the cheap option rather than letting the Reapers remain as some kind of unknowable Lovecraftian horror device. Instead of being near omnipotent, it degrades them a tool (because they're possibly being controlled) used to clean the universe. Yep, the Reapers are now a vacuum cleaner. Anti-climax of the decade.

I know what you meant and I figured that you don't like it. I am, on the other hand, always considered the possibility that the Reapers are tools. After all they are Machines, and someone must have built them.

AmstradHero wrote...
If the whole point of Mass Effect is to kill the robots, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Reapers are the very cause of the problem that they claim to be fixing?

Regardless, that is the objective of the game - "kill all robots" is not a theme. There are countless themes that are presented more strongly throughout the series: strength through unified diversity, the power of trust, the nature of life, the concept of free will, etc.

How are the Reapers the cause of the problem that they claim to be fixing?

But yes, kill the robots isn't a theme, and yes there are countless themes that are presented throughout the series, still it's is (I should have wrote "stop the Robots") the goal you need to achieve.

The themes, and you listed the most important correctly, brought up on the way, but still, imho the endings do not contradict them.

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote..
Furthermore the ending only say's "robots will kill non-robots" when you take Stare Childs logic as given fact, which I don't do.

If you don't take the Star Child's logic as fact but instead consider him unreliable, then the situation is even more heinous and disgusting than any other. In this case, the player is forced to make a choice provided to them by a character potentially attempting to deceive them, or at best, simply making a gross miscalculation.

For a game about choice, this is effectively providing the player with a false choice at the climax of the game. This is the worst possible outcome because it means that the information provided to the player about these choices is also inaccurate and hence the player is making a decision based on inaccurate information. Getting railroaded into one of three inaccurate choices at the end of the series is the worst possible outcome for the series.

And again I disagree.
First, I didn't consider Star Child as unreliable, I consider his logic as flawed. His logic led to the cycles, to the Reapers and the uncountable atrocities they committed. But Star Child admitted, right at the start of the conversation, that his solution did not work anymore, and he gave me, as the Player, three choices, two of them, destruction and control, clearly and knowledge-based, contrary to his logic or his goals.

Modifié par Holger1405, 08 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[Voodoo-j]

In one hand .. the blue pill
The other .. the red pill

Who wants to go down the rabbit hole?