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[akenn312]

This is a pretty good vid, kinda like the Tastful Nerdrage one but raises some good points.



Maybe all this can be a good wakeup call for Bioware.

[3DandBeyond]

Ok, I did find a 2 year old thread here on BSN about the "beings of light" and it is so eerie. There's one guy (I don't know if he has posted here or not), who repeatedly hit it on the head as to what people didn't want in any Mass Effect game.

The BSN member, screwoffreg, is a visionary and here's a comment he wrote,

"That is true and anyway Bioware would have had to develop the "ancient" race for some time. A quick appearance at the end would be terrible. I am all for the idea of the current sentient races finding a way to defeat the Reapers on their own, without having to end galactic civlization OR rely on ancient God aliens."

There are far more points that he and others make that almost make it seem like Bioware read the thread and did everything people didn't want done.

http://social.biowar.../index/970146/1

Probably most people already know of this, but I really only joined
these forums when I finished ME3 and was appalled at the ending.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 mai 2012 - 02:57 .

[Holger1405]

AmstradHero wrote...

The fact they are tools isn't the (primary) thing that makes them mundane. It's the rehashing of a tried and overused science fiction theme - particularly one that was mostly absent from the game itself.

Fair enough. That is practically the same reason I hated the Matrix ending so much, still I see the Mass Effect endings different.

AmstradHero wrote...

The Reapers are machines, and they are trying to kill everyone. Heck, they programmed the Geth to actively attack organics - something they did not do without Reaper programming. They are machines that are exterminating life.

First, the Geth aren't programmed to attack organics, The Geth heretics follow Saren and Sovereign because they considered Sovereign a God like creature.
The Geth in ME3 seek an Alliance with the Reapers because the Quarian's forced them to.
In the end, if you chose to let them exist, they still have the Reaper code, but they not forced to attack organics. 

Second, the Reapers didn't kill everyone. They erase only advanced organic species, so this organic species can't create synthetic life that, in the end, according to Star Child's logic, will destroy every Organic species and in doing so, erase all organic live from the galaxy. 
This is the Purpose of the Reapers, so they do not creating the problem that they claim to be fixing.

AmstradHero wrote...
Synthesis forces every being in the galaxy to become a single, homogenuous mass, regardless of whether they want it or not. There goes free will, the nature of life and strength through unified diversity right out the window. That is supposed to be the optimal ending, and it butchers some of the most important games of the series.

Control and destroy are slightly more tolerable, but still take away free will from some of the parties involved.

See what I mean about how the endings contradict these themes?

Why do you think that synthesis is suppose to be the optimal ending? I think it is up to the Player to decide which ending is optimal for her/him.

But, I agree, synthesis is also imho a awful ending, but Control only takes away the free will of the Reapers, as Destruction leads to the, well, Destruction of the Reapers, with the Geth as innocent victims. In this two endings the Mass Relays also getting destroyed, but as I stated before, imho they should be, so the Organic races can start over at their one's terms.  So in my opinion this two endings add free will to most of the Races.

AmstradHero wrote...

That logic is what is providing the basis for the choices the player is presented. That means that flawed logic undermines the validity of those choices just as much as if he were wilfully unreliable - because it still means that the only options presented to the player are in themselves flawed. Having the game end with flawed choices is neither satisfying nor able to provide a bittersweet victory, it just leaves the player feeling cheated.

If a conclusion is reached based on flawed logic, the conclusion as presented is invalid. People can reach a correct conclusion based on incorrect logic, just as you can mess up multiple steps in a mathematical problem and potentially end up with the right answer, but basing a conclusion to a series on flawed logic is truly terrible writing.

No, Star Child admit that his solution, created by his logic, didn't work anymore. So he presented new "Possibilities" to the Player, possibilities they didn't follow Star Child's logic. That means the soundness of Star Child's logic means noting to the validity of the choices presented to the Player.
 
Furthermore, Star Child's flawed logic would only undermine the choices of the Player when this choices maintain the, according to Star Child's logic existing, status quo. But you have two choices, Destruction and Control, who clearly contradicts his logic.

Modifié par Holger1405, 08 mai 2012 - 03:37 .

[Holger1405]

LiarasShield wrote...


umm thanatos that didn't prove the other races survived or didn't starve because the normandy either went ftl or used the relays before they were destroyed or hit that doesn't prove the other races survived it only proved that the normandy survived on some random planet and that could be jokers grandson for all we know it doesn't prove that the others survived

The Normandy was hit and damaged by the very shockwave you claim to destroy the Relay systems.
It's impossible that the Normandy go to FTL after this Shockwave hit her. That means the Normandy is still in a Relay system, and that means the Relay systems are fine.  

Edit: typo

Modifié par Holger1405, 08 mai 2012 - 04:19 .

[deBem]

First post... I read a lot through this last week.
And I did not come to one post saying this, so I will... (You guys tell me if this was said before and what you think about it)

I see the last sequence as a dream/indoctrination sequence, but I think we are not going to see any resolution to this problem.

If i remember correctly, BW said that this game was going to be the end o Shepard's story.
Not Mass Effect's story.

Maybe they are thinking of a 4th game (I don't know about names...) with a new character were you may or not meet Shepard along the way.

I think the Crucible is almost as the Architect and Oracle solution for the Matrix, something designed for giving hope or the illusion of choice.

The war with the Protheans lasted for generations. If the Crucible is a trap, there is no reason why it shouldn't last longer and another game be made.

Well... Sorry about my poor english.
I hope I made my point.
Thanks

[3DandBeyond]

@Holger1405,
I can only say that making any of the "choices" the ignorant kid gives you is to totally deny the character of Shepard as many of us played him/her.

Control-TIM's and Saren's choice. Shepard hates them, sees them as evil, wouldn't wanna be like them.

Synthesis-Saren's and Sovereign's stated goal. Shepard hates them, sees them as evil, wouldn't wanna do what they think is right.

Destroy-The psycho kid shows Anderson doing this, but at this point Shepard would already have to mistrust anything this kid says. I do and while as a player I did control Shepard's actions and reactions, I didn't live the consequences of them. It is presumed Shepard did. Destroy is equally as insulting and abhorrent as any other choice, depending upon the type of Shepard you played. Maybe more so, but it is the only choice that is plausible given Shepard's feelings about the other two. Only, it isn't plausible, either. The whole thing just makes my head hurt. Shepard can't choose what s/he would never choose, and Shepard won't choose something s/he could not choose. That just means Shepard couldn't and wouldn't make a choice from those given.


I've come to believe it all goes back to fish. The kid says they harvest the advanced organics-people only take certain fish or sealife that is "ready" to be harvested.

Maybe someone is either afraid of the loss of sealife or is worried that left unharvested fish will take over the universe.

[LiarasShield]

Holger1405 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...


umm thanatos that didn't prove the other races survived or didn't starve because the normandy either went ftl or used the relays before they were destroyed or hit that doesn't prove the other races survived it only proved that the normandy survived on some random planet and that could be jokers grandson for all we know it doesn't prove that the others survived

The Normandy was hit and damaged by the very shockwave you claim to destroy the Relay systems.
It's impossible that the Normandy go to FTL after this Shockwave hit her. That means the Normandy is still in a Relay systems, and that means the Relay systems are fine.  

no that still doesn't prove that the relays are fine the shockwave hit the normandy but hit each relay across the galaxy and exploded outward did you not pay attention to the galaxy map as each shockwave hit and exploded outward or are you trying to sugar coat it in saying that it didn't hurt the relays if that is so gian't explosions of that nature wouldn't have happend if the relays weren't destroyed or badly damaged

[LiarasShield]

stop sugar coating a bad ending please for the love of god U-u

[LiarasShield]

you may love the ending but stop trying to sugar coat it you have no proof that relays are fine other then a assumption where at least some of us at least have a event from within the last game that shows what could happen if a relay is destroyed

[LiarasShield]

I know you're trying to be super optimistic about stuff right now but I'm not gonna hold my breath or give a decent smile until extended somehow shows the relays are fine and can explain how the giant explosions across each relay didn't destroy them and yes if you haven't played arrival on mass effect 2 you may also be missing a vital part of crucial information

[LiarasShield]

different kinds of explosions still wouldn't change the relays being destroyed because the moment the first shockwave hits it still destroys the relay within our own system so with this energy be transported at the rate it is and seeing the giant explosions or shockwaves from each one please just give up arrival alones give me enough ammo to shut your all the relays are fine thing in the water

Let alone how no matter what color you pick the relay in our system still gets destroyed and each relay looks like they explode and it shows thee explosion all across the galaxy map

[3DandBeyond]

deBem wrote...

First post... I read a lot through this last week.
And I did not come to one post saying this, so I will... (You guys tell me if this was said before and what you think about it)

I see the last sequence as a dream/indoctrination sequence, but I think we are not going to see any resolution to this problem.

If i remember correctly, BW said that this game was going to be the end o Shepard's story.
Not Mass Effect's story.

Maybe they are thinking of a 4th game (I don't know about names...) with a new character were you may or not meet Shepard along the way.

I think the Crucible is almost as the Architect and Oracle solution for the Matrix, something designed for giving hope or the illusion of choice.

The war with the Protheans lasted for generations. If the Crucible is a trap, there is no reason why it shouldn't last longer and another game be made.

Well... Sorry about my poor english.
I hope I made my point.
Thanks

Good post/good points.  And don't apologize-your English is just fine.  Far better than any other attempt I could make at another language.

Bioware has indicated they considered indoctrination for the ending or as a major part of it, but time and game mechanics made it not possible for gameplay.  This seems to say it could still be contained in narrative.  It wasn't, but that still could happen.  The ending is very surreal, dreamlike, slow motion.  Not what should be taking place at all.

Bioware did indeed say that ME3 would end Shepard's story, but also hinted that the core ME3 game was not the complete ME3 story, which left the door open for ME3 DLC and content with or without Shepard.

Bioware stated that any new ME game would not take place after the events of ME3, but would either be something that took place during the events of ME3 or before.  The ending of ME3 makes such a proclamation really suspect.  I can't see playing anything where I know the end and the end just stinks, unless the ending is somehow made great.  I can see new games that take place in the future, but am not certain the audience is there if this ending is not made great.  This new game could include things in the recent or distant future. 

Bioware released an app called the Final Hours, that had a lot of behind the scenes at ME3 stuff including the thought processes of the game's writers.  One very noticeable item is a notepad of I think the head writer, that says things in his handwriting.  Two things that stand out on that notepad are, "lots of speculation for everyone" and the word "Matrix".  Many people will point out that the ending basically copies a lot of ideas from other games and movies.  It is very un-original and as much as it seems to aspire to be esoteric and thought-provoking and all, it smacks of a cookie cutter type of thing.  It's been done to death.  Even the ending of the Matrix had been done to death in my mind.  For me it was predictable.  And the only way to see the star kid and make him acceptable is to make his story even less original.

The ending takes the fate of organics out of their hands and puts it squarely into what some super (stupid) being says should be done or could be done.  It's like saying we always need someone else to fix the crappy situation we find ourselves in.  Shepard all the way through was that someone else, but Shepard showed others that their own character could be the defining difference. 

Such a discussion took place with Garrus and my Shepard in ME1.  The Salarian he'd been chasing, shoots himself in the head.  Garrus thinks this indicates futility.  Shepard tells Garrus that you can't control someone else's reactions.  You can only control your own.  And this changes a lot of how Garrus sees things.  In the ME "universe", Shepard just teaches people that they can do things they never thought they would or could.  The star kid comes along and in 5 minutes scraps that idea.  The star kid is what is needed and he pulls the strings, he gives the choices, and takes away all that Shepard has accomplished.  This is not orginal and the only inspiration it takes is from some dystopian theory of fate and/or religion, that we can't argue with our fate.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 mai 2012 - 03:45 .

[LiarasShield]

people in denial or don't pay crucial attention to detail is becoming some what of a issue right now lol

[Holger1405]

LiarasShield wrote...

stop sugar coating a bad ending please for the love of god U-u

I don't "sugar coating" a bad ending, it's not bad for me.
You on the other hand, rip apart the tiniest little details, just to have one more reason to hate the ending, thereby ignoring canon and simple common sense.

LiarasShield wrote...

you may love the ending but stop trying to sugar coat it you have no proof that relays are fine other then a assumption where at least some of us at least have a event from within the last game that shows what could happen if a relay is destroyed

I do, just presented it to you. You choose to ignore it.

LiarasShield wrote...

I know you're trying to be super optimistic about stuff right now but I'm not gonna hold my breath or give a decent smile until extended somehow shows the relays are fine and can explain how the giant explosions across each relay didn't destroy them and yes if you haven't played arrival on mass effect 2 you may also be missing a vital part of crucial information

I played "Arrival" 6 times now. It didn't changes the (canon) facts about the endings.

[LiarasShield]

no because you keep being a optimist obviously you didn't pay attention to the relay being destroyed in our system and again you most likely didn't pay attention the all the explosions outward from each relay point in the galaxy if so I highly doubt you would be so optimistic the way you are

it tells me you didnt pay attention to the whole a destruction of a relay will destroy the solar system that it is in like in arrival and it makes me think you have bad eye sight as to not see what happend right before your eyes

Modifié par LiarasShield, 08 mai 2012 - 03:59 .

[LiarasShield]

False happy denial is quite terrible I rather have real happyness with this dlc again Like I have said all your the relays are fine thing is only a assumption on your part and like I said I have at least a event from within mass effect 2 that gives me decent idea as to what happended

[LiarasShield]

And Yes arrival and the shadow broker events are cannon because no matter if shepard was involved or not they still happen by another squad like liara hired help to take on the shadow broker and how captain sent in another squad to deal with destroying the relay and the reaper device

[LiarasShield]

So once again you have nothing other then conjecture or mere speculation to bring to the table

[LiarasShield]

You have no facts that have proved me wrong or you haven't shown them to me yet you're just giving me more useless speculation to grind my head against this table of a complete failure ending where nothing you did does anything other than having your crew say screw you and having you die while the galaxy falls apart

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Holger1405,
I can only say that making any of the "choices" the ignorant kid gives you is to totally deny the character of Shepard as many of us played him/her.

Control-TIM's and Saren's choice. Shepard hates them, sees them as evil, wouldn't wanna be like them.

Synthesis-Saren's and Sovereign's stated goal. Shepard hates them, sees them as evil, wouldn't wanna do what they think is right.

Destroy-The psycho kid shows Anderson doing this, but at this point Shepard would already have to mistrust anything this kid says. I do and while as a player I did control Shepard's actions and reactions, I didn't live the consequences of them. It is presumed Shepard did. Destroy is equally as insulting and abhorrent as any other choice, depending upon the type of Shepard you played. Maybe more so, but it is the only choice that is plausible given Shepard's feelings about the other two. Only, it isn't plausible, either. The whole thing just makes my head hurt. Shepard can't choose what s/he would never choose, and Shepard won't choose something s/he could not choose. That just means Shepard couldn't and wouldn't make a choice from those given.


I've come to believe it all goes back to fish. The kid says they harvest the advanced organics-people only take certain fish or sealife that is "ready" to be harvested.

Maybe someone is either afraid of the loss of sealife or is worried that left unharvested fish will take over the universe.

I am sorry that you feel that way and I do understand why you are not satisfied with the endings, still I have a different opinion about this matters. I referred to a lot of your points on the previously pages, but I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[LiarasShield]

the facts are you are blindsided and have fake optimism of the ending when the relays were destroyed across the entire galaxy and seeing the explosions expldoe outward from each relay point and no matter what ending you pick the relay within our system is destroyed

And the shadowbroker and arrival events still happen so they are still cannon even without shepards invovlement you have fake optimism and you have nothing to prove your points other then pure speculation!!!!

[LiarasShield]

Again it goes back and sums up that shepard dies crew says screw you and again even if the entire galaxy isn't destroyed the relays are gone and everybody again is trapt around a dieing earth so right now shepards sacrifice didn't do anything other then possibly dooming them quicker

So are only hope right now is that thee extended dlc will prove otherwise and make these endings somewhat satisfying

Modifié par LiarasShield, 08 mai 2012 - 04:16 .

[LiarasShield]

I'm not gonna be in fake denial until the endings become worthy of shepards sacrifice it just isn't happening

[LiarasShield]

If you talk to liara on the ship without playing me2 it will still tell how she had to bring in a squad to take out the shadowbroker and lose her friend and if you didn't play arrival if you talk to the batarian at the ward for refugees the batarian will still be upset about how alliances marines caused the destruction of the relay the men that hackett sent in since shepard didn't do it

[Redbelle]

@Holger1405

Referring back to the last Matrix movie.....

Oh grud the last gasp of Trinity........... The death scene that would never end! They did it better the first time around! Stop trying to get smoochy with Neo and croak Already!!!

Pretty much sums up the feelings I had towards that scene.

Anyway........back to the ending of ME..... I need more context, situational awareness of the characters, etc etc......

The narration in the ending of the game is shockingly poor when you compare it to a series of events in ME1.

Partly I feel that this is due to the lead writer focusing on Shepard to the exclusion of all other characters....... except Anderson and TIM............ and........<shudders> SC.

In ME1 when the mako hits the ground relay and gets sent to the citadel you lose all contact with the Noramandy...... you fight with your chosen squad..... get to play around on the outside of the citadel structure........ then the call comes in with Normandy, who essentially says 'Yeah, we figured you'd be at the citadel so we came after you and picked up the human fleet while we were at it. We're going to shoot Reaper now.'................. Would it have killed the lead writer at BW to add a line in ME3 in amoungst all the comm traffic to explain where Normandy ends up? Ppl have thoeorised as to the Normandy's location at the end and while it may seem obvious to some the lack of exposition as to how Normandy is in the situation it finds itself in is.......... lets go with puzzling.

The reason I find the ending to be a terrible piece of script writing is that BW have pulled off an astounding trilogy, done it with style, and then handed the ME3 ending over to a 2 man team when it was 8 ppl who delivered all the previous funky goodness of ME3.

I've seen this happen before in Star Trek Enterprise. The final season was given to a Sci-Fi writer who dusted down old concepts and made them stand out with new idea's and concepts coupled with a brilliant script. Then the final episode the man in charge of ST said he wanted to do it and he thought what we really wanted to see at some point was a scene of Jolene Blalock chopping carrots. Never has a face been palmed so hard.

Modifié par Redbelle, 08 mai 2012 - 04:37 .