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[Holger1405]

Archonsg wrote...

@holger1405

At this point, I am going to wait and see what the EC DLC has to offer. Frankly speaking, my rage has cooled somewhat, but replacing that rage is cool calculation.

You see, while I was angry, and emotional, it would have been easy for Bioware to have just said "Sorry guys, time and budget did not allow us to give you guys a fuller ending, but we ate working on it....btw It'll cost you $19.90 ..." and I'd probably would have bought it.

Now however, that I haven been given time to think, analyze not only where they went wrong but how, from my point of view I am will be less forgiving.
I just hope that our hopes are founded and the EC DLC will wow us. But, I am not expecting it will.

Little expectations are sometimes better, and so I hope that they will surprise you with the DLC.

[3DandBeyond]

I think Holger405 the main problem that most of us have is the continued assertion that the ending or endings as they are now are not any kind of clear win. In all scenarios there is the idea of looming technology the either comes in to destroy all (eventually the reapers or someone like them come back) or that organic life must become subservient to in order to continue to exist (as in synthesis-can't get along so organics and synthetics must give up what they now are).

You see, in my heart I am not fatalistic about things. I don't think something must be so because it is destiny. I don't like it when entertainment tries to hit me over the head and say I'm wrong and it's all about fate.

But, even more than that, it's about what you yourself are saying. You admit that a large part of the ending is flawed-the kid is, and so on. But, in order to accept this ending you have to accept that the kid is being honest and is not flawed.

You admit that Joker landing on the planet and so on, is flawed. It's worse than that. There's a whole lot of people out there thinking anyone that wants a happy ending wants some frilly, silly, sappy, happy garbage. But, they won't admit to the silly, sappy, nonsensical nature of the Joker planet scene and the Stargazer scene. That is way worse than any happy ending that shows Shepard and team and assets in a locked battle to the death with the reapers/harbinger and Shepard and friends and Love Interest walking out over rubble in triumphant victory.

But, that's what we have. I could create all kinds of scenarios as to what it all means and even work to make it make sense-all of it. I can envision a distorted mind of synthetic origin that either purposely or accidentally misleads Shepard into making some horribly unsatisfying incomplete choice-one that does not fit Shepard's character or what players want to see. I can make up anything. But, it doesn't make it true. It isn't in the story and it doesn't and can't make the endings better.

When I was a kid I used to play with shoe boxes and cut them up to make castles. I could take a rubber band and play with it for hours-make a banjo from it, even. But what I had in the end was still a shoe box and still a rubber band. It's the same here. I can imagine a lot, but I didn't pay for a rubber band, I paid for a banjo. What I mean is, I didn't pay for a game that required me to imagine everything in order to fix flaws and plot holes and make it all make sense. I paid for it to make sense and to be a complete story.

You may think flaws are ok-maybe you don't. I personally think they are not forgivable when there were so many ways to avoid them. And then when they've been pointed out as flaws, ignoring them, or calling them artistic vision is a slap in the face. The red mark is still on my cheek and it will take awhile for the swelling to go down.

[darkway1]

In fact after all the hype,after all the build up and after the games release .....Bioware suddenly goes silent in response to over 800 pages of complaint in this thread alone.

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I think Holger405 the main problem that most of us have is the continued assertion that the ending or endings as they are now are not any kind of clear win. In all scenarios there is the idea of looming technology the either comes in to destroy all (eventually the reapers or someone like them come back) or that organic life must become subservient to in order to continue to exist (as in synthesis-can't get along so organics and synthetics must give up what they now are).

You see, in my heart I am not fatalistic about things. I don't think something must be so because it is destiny. I don't like it when entertainment tries to hit me over the head and say I'm wrong and it's all about fate.

But, even more than that, it's about what you yourself are saying. You admit that a large part of the ending is flawed-the kid is, and so on. But, in order to accept this ending you have to accept that the kid is being honest and is not flawed.

You admit that Joker landing on the planet and so on, is flawed. It's worse than that. There's a whole lot of people out there thinking anyone that wants a happy ending wants some frilly, silly, sappy, happy garbage. But, they won't admit to the silly, sappy, nonsensical nature of the Joker planet scene and the Stargazer scene. That is way worse than any happy ending that shows Shepard and team and assets in a locked battle to the death with the reapers/harbinger and Shepard and friends and Love Interest walking out over rubble in triumphant victory.

But, that's what we have. I could create all kinds of scenarios as to what it all means and even work to make it make sense-all of it. I can envision a distorted mind of synthetic origin that either purposely or accidentally misleads Shepard into making some horribly unsatisfying incomplete choice-one that does not fit Shepard's character or what players want to see. I can make up anything. But, it doesn't make it true. It isn't in the story and it doesn't and can't make the endings better.

When I was a kid I used to play with shoe boxes and cut them up to make castles. I could take a rubber band and play with it for hours-make a banjo from it, even. But what I had in the end was still a shoe box and still a rubber band. It's the same here. I can imagine a lot, but I didn't pay for a rubber band, I paid for a banjo. What I mean is, I didn't pay for a game that required me to imagine everything in order to fix flaws and plot holes and make it all make sense. I paid for it to make sense and to be a complete story.

You may think flaws are ok-maybe you don't. I personally think they are not forgivable when there were so many ways to avoid them. And then when they've been pointed out as flaws, ignoring them, or calling them artistic vision is a slap in the face. The red mark is still on my cheek and it will take awhile for the swelling to go down.

I agree,to put it bluntly.......Mass3 was vandalized in order to make more money.

[3DandBeyond]

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

.......and this is all day one,god knows what's in store for the rest of the franchise.

http://kotaku.com/58...ll-cost-you-870

Well to be honest that is hyperbole-in order to play the game you don't need the Chimera headset or all those figurines.  And they aren't DLC-they are extra fan-based accessories.  The DLC may well cost somewhere on the order of $100, but so far I think is a bit less than that.  If you add on repeat purchases people could make (but honestly shouldn't) of MP packs for equipment, spectre and so on, then you could start paying a lot more.  This is where they make real money-nickels and dimes or choose your currency.

Oh yeah,of course you don't need to buy any of that stuff but it just goes to show the all the promo work that comes with an AAA game these days,,,,,,copies of Mass3 in space,trailer aired on TV with Walking Dead,the Mass Movie.......and yet here we are with a half finished game....go figure. 

I agree, what it points out is a basic idea of where they went wrong.  Just look at the marketing and sales of Star Wars stuff.  I actually have a lot that I bought and got as gifts back when SW came out-figures, mugs, models, art books, comics, and so on.  ME had the potential to be an almost neverending new generation SW.  The spin off possibilities were and maybe still are endless.  And gaming is truly coming into its own, but game companies are beginning to cripple the industry.  They need to actually look at minimizing profits from any one item in order to maximize profits over the long run, but sadly everything today is about more profit now. 

They should really step back and look at the high value of rabid fans and work to create an icon of gaming, just as SW turned the SF trend around and legitimized it and then created whole industries.  Most people forget what SF movies and tv was like before Star Wars, but those as old as I am don't forget.  B movies and low budget tv series, not taken seriously.  Video gaming is like that, not taken seriously and ME had the ability to change that.  It still might.

[Archonsg]

3DandBeyond wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

.......and this is all day one,god knows what's in store for the rest of the franchise.

http://kotaku.com/58...ll-cost-you-870

Well to be honest that is hyperbole-in order to play the game you don't need the Chimera headset or all those figurines.  And they aren't DLC-they are extra fan-based accessories.  The DLC may well cost somewhere on the order of $100, but so far I think is a bit less than that.  If you add on repeat purchases people could make (but honestly shouldn't) of MP packs for equipment, spectre and so on, then you could start paying a lot more.  This is where they make real money-nickels and dimes or choose your currency.

Oh yeah,of course you don't need to buy any of that stuff but it just goes to show the all the promo work that comes with an AAA game these days,,,,,,copies of Mass3 in space,trailer aired on TV with Walking Dead,the Mass Movie.......and yet here we are with a half finished game....go figure. 

I agree, what it points out is a basic idea of where they went wrong.  Just look at the marketing and sales of Star Wars stuff.  I actually have a lot that I bought and got as gifts back when SW came out-figures, mugs, models, art books, comics, and so on.  ME had the potential to be an almost neverending new generation SW.  The spin off possibilities were and maybe still are endless.  And gaming is truly coming into its own, but game companies are beginning to cripple the industry.  They need to actually look at minimizing profits from any one item in order to maximize profits over the long run, but sadly everything today is about more profit now. 

They should really step back and look at the high value of rabid fans and work to create an icon of gaming, just as SW turned the SF trend around and legitimized it and then created whole industries.  Most people forget what SF movies and tv was like before Star Wars, but those as old as I am don't forget.  B movies and low budget tv series, not taken seriously.  Video gaming is like that, not taken seriously and ME had the ability to change that.  It still might.

Showing our age here.

I am thinking, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, and Space 1999, though that last one was, wasn't a half bad show.
But the oddest thing I remember was Macross. It is an anime that aired during "kid's prime time" (Robotech to you yanks ) but boy did it deal with adult issues and didn't hold its puches on issues of death and war.


Likewise, Mass Effect even though a game was one really well thought out and dealt with a wide range of issues. Just damn heartbreaking to see a great series end the way it did.
 

 

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[daveyeisley]

I see so much bile strewn about by folks who think having the endings changed will be some sort of terrible blow to the gaming medium, scaring writers from ever trying anything daring again.

What a load of hogwash.

What it may do is get writers to spend more time thinking about if their 'daring' move will upset the audience, and if so, whether they can live with the criticism and loss of sales.

If you want to create something that is controversial, or 'daring', that may not be well recieved... hey that's fine. Don't try to take people's money for it unless they enjoy it.

If you want to take money for letting people see your creation, you damn well better do everything in your power to make it worth their while.

Its a trade-off that the writer needs to prepare themself for ahead of time. If they know they are going to ****** people off, they should warn them before taking the money. If they unexpectedly ****** people off they need to be willing to make it right.

Common decency.

Modifié par daveyeisley, 12 mai 2012 - 05:50 .

[3DandBeyond]

@Archonsg,
I'm not saying at all that SF shows and movies weren't done well before Star Wars came along-of course we both know there were some that had very deep thought and logic and stories. As we both know though they were not often able to be given decent treatment and people tended to not take them seriously. They were low budget. Even Star Trek (original series) did have obviously well thought out story lines and messages, but it was just considered fluff. Considering what they did with what they had and then what the name became, you just have to marvel at the genius of it.

The only really serious SF movie I can remember was 2001, prior to the age that Star Wars ushered in. And, it seems so far removed from the book-I was a kid when it came out and our whole family went to see it. It was a big event. But, as a kid it confused the heck out of me. I "got" it later, but must admit it is about as anti-action as you can get. That might have been what they were trying for at the end of ME3, but...thanks, but no thanks. 2001 is like watching paint dry. And mostly what we remember from it is apes and Hal and Dave. It didn't go far.

[Flubberlub]

All this has made me want to do is get a job in creating games and make the full edition to the game, with so many branching story lines that you need at least two blu ray discs to store it all. Now all it is is nit picking, except for the ending which was a disappointment for the series, game, and Bioware itself. But taking in the communities ideas is the way forward, Bioware. Create the perfect game for us, for the ending let it be free. But create an ultimate edition, with all the dlc, an ending that incorporates everything, and everything that we have asked for. This, I will pay for, because it is not something I was expecting from the game, but is now something that the game dwarves.

[Flubberlub]

Not dwarves... Deserves

[darkway1]

daveyeisley wrote...

I see so much bile strewn about by folks who think having the endings changed will be some sort of terrible blow to the gaming medium, scaring writers from ever trying anything daring again.

What a load of hogwash.

What it may do is get writers to spend more time thinking about if their 'daring' move will upset the audience, and if so, whether they can live with the criticism and loss of sales.

If you want to create something that is controversial, or 'daring', that may not be well recieved... hey that's fine. Don't try to take people's money for it unless they enjoy it.

If you want to take money for letting people see your creation, you damn well better do everything in your power to make it worth their while.

Its a trade-off that the writer needs to prepare themself for ahead of time. If they know they are going to ****** people off, they should warn them before taking the money. If they unexpectedly ****** people off they need to be willing to make it right.

Common decency.

This is why this whole situation is a sham........they won't change the ending because of artist integrity but we all know the ending was produced to sell DLC........to make money............and who cares if the ending is changed,I'd much prefer people hound me for making something better than be hounded for some thing I've screwed up.

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

.......and this is all day one,god knows what's in store for the rest of the franchise.

http://kotaku.com/58...ll-cost-you-870

Well to be honest that is hyperbole-in order to play the game you don't need the Chimera headset or all those figurines.  And they aren't DLC-they are extra fan-based accessories.  The DLC may well cost somewhere on the order of $100, but so far I think is a bit less than that.  If you add on repeat purchases people could make (but honestly shouldn't) of MP packs for equipment, spectre and so on, then you could start paying a lot more.  This is where they make real money-nickels and dimes or choose your currency.

Oh yeah,of course you don't need to buy any of that stuff but it just goes to show the all the promo work that comes with an AAA game these days,,,,,,copies of Mass3 in space,trailer aired on TV with Walking Dead,the Mass Movie.......and yet here we are with a half finished game....go figure. 

I agree, what it points out is a basic idea of where they went wrong.  Just look at the marketing and sales of Star Wars stuff.  I actually have a lot that I bought and got as gifts back when SW came out-figures, mugs, models, art books, comics, and so on.  ME had the potential to be an almost neverending new generation SW.  The spin off possibilities were and maybe still are endless.  And gaming is truly coming into its own, but game companies are beginning to cripple the industry.  They need to actually look at minimizing profits from any one item in order to maximize profits over the long run, but sadly everything today is about more profit now. 

They should really step back and look at the high value of rabid fans and work to create an icon of gaming, just as SW turned the SF trend around and legitimized it and then created whole industries.  Most people forget what SF movies and tv was like before Star Wars, but those as old as I am don't forget.  B movies and low budget tv series, not taken seriously.  Video gaming is like that, not taken seriously and ME had the ability to change that.  It still might.

I think Mass has changed the gaming industry,I really do think the Mass franchise took gaming to a whole new level and for the first time ever people really do care about the characters,the conflict and the gaming universe they exist in.Bioware has created something very special for so many people..........and that's exactly why we people are going nuts when they see the franchise abused.

[LiarasShield]

Holger I'm sorry I can't see it as a victory I didn't unite all those races just to see them eventually die or starve to death inspace so what if the uncivilized races don't get the fight the reapers that doesn't bring me any peace when I wanting to bring the galaxy together so that the cores races that were with me could still have a future

After solving alot of their problems after all the sacrifices and knowing that the relays are gone and that they our trapt in our solar system I can't accept that all I sacrificed that all I did to ssave talis and the geths homeworlds and wrexs homeworld tuchanka palavan and the Loss of thessia was all for nothing I can't accept a ending like this that all does bring despair for me

Once Again I can't accept this as a victory holger and I still really can't see how you can and like I said until extended comes out that is all it leaves me to believe is that it was all for nothing

[LiarasShield]

Because If I knew that i would end up traping the very forces I'd brought with me to fight the reapers I wouldn't have wasted the time bringing them together in the first place

Modifié par LiarasShield, 12 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[LiarasShield]

Better to die quickly and have it be over with then to slowly die and know you're never going home

[LiarasShield]

Once Again until extended comes out and proves otherwise this is the way it is right now

[Voodoo-j]

daveyeisley wrote...

I see so much bile strewn about by folks who think having the endings changed will be some sort of terrible blow to the gaming medium, scaring writers from ever trying anything daring again.

What a load of hogwash.

What it may do is get writers to spend more time thinking about if their 'daring' move will upset the audience, and if so, whether they can live with the criticism and loss of sales.

If you want to create something that is controversial, or 'daring', that may not be well recieved... hey that's fine. Don't try to take people's money for it unless they enjoy it.

If you want to take money for letting people see your creation, you damn well better do everything in your power to make it worth their while.

Its a trade-off that the writer needs to prepare themself for ahead of time. If they know they are going to ****** people off, they should warn them before taking the money. If they unexpectedly ****** people off they need to be willing to make it right.

Common decency.

A good bussiness model - they would hire a writter to write the game with certain points/expectations/endings/ already in mind.  Paid to write.  Not like a book where you write it and send it to a publisher.

Not the same depth of "artistic integrety" - quite a bit different.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 12 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[xmen555]

i like the battle on earth. but the crucible part was crap.. why don't just kick harbringer's butt with guns and a big floot of spaceships.
a little bit like me2 end. where you have to make choise from who defends and who you take with you.



(srry for my english, i'm dutch so)

[MikeytheShocktrooper]

Bioware if your going to steal endings from the Deus Ex Series(basically stole from Deus Ex original) why not at least give us the 4th option from Deus Ex human revolution where we say screw the logic and allow the universe to test its own strength.

[twinsfun]

So sad and I wished they cared about the fan base it makes me sick inside my only option is never buy anything from them again

[Thanatos144]

Damn I saw this show already LOL

[aaaaant]

Well done Bioware. Yet again, a masterpiece.
Don't know what all the fuss is about the ending. I liked it. But then, I always like storys which leaves you hanging, not answering all questions (another popular example may be Inception?). Come on, that is what your imagination is for.
Alright, the conversations towards the ending already let you anticipate what to expect (i.e. saying goodbye to everyone). And they maybe they could have used some other opening lines apart from "So, this is it." But overall, an excellent game.

Oh, and my favorite moment was hearing Tali say "I left something in your cabin, go take a look" and me taking a look. Have been waiting since ME1 for this. :>

[Mohaan]

Well I'm late to the party but put me down as an avid hater of the endings as well.
Which, really hurts, because I loved the entire Mass Effect series. I'm 30yrs old and work full time, so I had heard the ending was disliked, but I was enjoying the game and didn't think it could be 'that bad'.

Last weekend I saw Mordin and Legion die off. Legion was my favourite character and I shed a tear at his loss, but I united the Geth and the Quarians. I cured the genophage and, despite this annoying the salarians, I won them over due to my paragon nature.

I recruited the entire galaxy. Krogan and Batarian, Geth and Quarian, Salarian and the gangs of the Citadel.

So imagine then how utterly frustrating and disappointing it was when I get 3 options of "die die or die" that doesn't take into account any of the work I had done within Mass Effect 3 at all, and that furthermore, doesn't appear to change very much except the colours.

In fact, I didn't even have a choice. Killing off the Geth that I just allowed to be a species wasn't an option. Enslaving a species wasn't an option. The only one that was viable was synthesis.

I felt the same way I did at the end of DLC Arrival, that the game forced my hand into a decision I wouldn't want to take. With Arrival however it was DLC and it made sense because of what was to come in ME3. With the end of ME3 however, it felt like I had the last 3 games destroyed in moments.

The endings destroyed the brilliance of the games. It was bleak, it was forced, it made no sense (why was the normandy not at earth? how will the fleets return to their planets? don't mass relays exploding wipe out systems?). I can't understand how the writers of the game that were so brilliant for so long, could end it so generically.

Very disappointed.

[AmstradHero]

Holger1405 wrote...
<The Normandy scene> makes no sense at all. It's a massive plot hole and for me the most illogical part of the ending. Still, I don't understand why are you referring to it as some act of mutiny. I think you and me, as, for this matter, almost any other ME Player, will agree that neither Joker, nor the rest of the crew, would never ever leave Shepard, or the battle, without a very good reason.

This reason not pointed out to us is a great mistake from Bioware. To say it even more clearly, I think it would be best if they not leaving at all, at least in some endings, after the DLC is released.

This is one problem with the ending. The radio transmission of "everyone is dead" is another. The Mass Relays "exploding" in a "special" explosion that magically doesn't kill everyone despite that being shown to players in Arrival is yet another. There are so many holes in the ending if you actually bother to examine it more than at a superficial level.

Holger1405 wrote...
This video files of that scene are named "End03_Shepard_Alive_Male" or "End03_Shepard_Alive_Fem" plus there is no other explanation for this scene whatsoever, then Bioware saying Shepard did survive.
Second: And more important, this scene is canon proof that Shepard is alive.

I see you relying on this a lot to support your argument. I'm afraid I have to pop this little bubble of hope/justification you keep returning to.

One, you're using meta-knowledge to support your argument. Good storytelling should not require that.
Two, the naming of game files or resources is by no means indicative. If you've ever examined game resources from any released title, you'll quickly realise that what files are named may or may not bear a resemblance to their actual content. This is an argument based entirely on supposition.
Lastly, there is no canon Shepard. BioWare have stated repeatedly that no one Shepard in canon. That not the way the story was ever designed. To renege on that now would be to render the series moot.

Holger1405 wrote...
@ The fleets stranded in the Sol system.

This would include a lot speculation, so I cut it.

Based on the knowledge of distances in the galaxy and the current technology, it's going to take years for fleets to be able to get back to places, and that's assuming that they can find the necessary fuel to keep travelling. Many places in the galaxy were dependent on Mass Relays - with them gone, the situation may not be catastrophic, but there are certainly going to be a heck of a lot more casualties before civilisations recover. And we're not just talking one civilisation here. We're talking every single civilisation in the galaxy.

The only way it can be all roses, puppies and rainbows is through... well, denial. Or more space magic. Neither of those is satisfactory for people who actually care about the lore of the Mass Effect setting.

Holger1405 wrote...
As I said, my Shepard, my Squad, Joker (imho also Edi, but that is up to discussion) and the crew of the Normandy are alive. I destroyed the Reapers and saved Earth plus the rest of the Galaxy. This is imho not only a Victory, it is a Great Victory.

EDI isn't alive if you picked destroy. She's synthetic life. A true AI. If you're saying that she survived the destroy ending, then you're blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you. Once you start doing that, all bets are off because you're deliberately and wilfully ignoring the facts the game presents you in order to get the victory that you desire. At this point, your argument disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays.

That's not a good ending and that's not good writing, but again, that's what many people have been saying about the ending for a long time.