23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Voodoo-j wrote...

I as well, at least until last night. Damn unrated Halo 2 PC, cant play online with a family account even if its the main account listed as adult with no restrictions. Unrated on PC is an auto failure against Family accounts. Once I wrap that up going to finish re leveling my engineer to 20 after grabbing the promotion achievement (they seem to be the easiest to level up).

Is there any other benefit to promoting? The minimal War Asset bonus I don't need.

Depending on the outcome of the DLC I'll play through at least 1 more time, hopefully more. But I'm not going to waste any further time on it until then.

On the mp side of things I really hope they push that further. I can't wait until a game comes along that ties in the battles with player squad mates -

ie - Attacking cerberus you actually connect to a game where a group of online players go through the station and fight their way through the level.


And don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to replace the solo play through with MP, just have the option.

I agree with Benchpress and don't want them to get the wrong idea that people prefer MP to SP-I played a lot of MP on the PS3 and now doing so on 360, but if it skews the data then ugh.  It will get old long after creating alternate Shepards and playing thru repeatedly would with a good ending.

Promoting doesn't seem to do much at all, other than the 75 points for war assets.  Too bad there wasn't some way to at least access a list of characters you promoted-least I can't see anything for it.  I think incorporating the individual characters would be tough, but a roster would have been nice.

[Redbelle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...

I do wish there was some way to use the Crucible to shut off/delete/destroy the Catalyst all by himself that didn't involve one of the 3 choice/warcrime/sacrifices.
Would be almost as satisfying as stabbing Lieutenant Bastard Kai Leng.

That's the thing, as this ending is now written, I can't comprehend the starkid being the Catalyst.  He isn't working for any kind of logical good.  And the options he gives are not any kind of logically good choices.  Also, if he's been there all along and could control the reapers (so he says), he is definitely the worst evil in the game.  The reapers aren't.  They are doing what they are forced to do.  And any thing that could control the reapers must be capable of just stopping them without requiring the Crucible.  It just seems like building the Crucible is what a teacher of mine used to call "busy work".  That's something to keep you busy that has no meaning or importance.  Keeps you from having idle hands.

What do you expect from a Star Kid whose 50,000 yrs x ?yrs out of date.

[Uber Rod]

Voodoo-j wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
@ The fleets stranded in the Sol system.

This would include a lot speculation, so I cut it.

Based on the knowledge of distances in the galaxy and the current technology, it's going to take years for fleets to be able to get back to places, and that's assuming that they can find the necessary fuel to keep travelling. Many places in the galaxy were dependent on Mass Relays - with them gone, the situation may not be catastrophic, but there are certainly going to be a heck of a lot more casualties before civilisations recover. And we're not just talking one civilisation here. We're talking every single civilisation in the galaxy.

The only way it can be all roses, puppies and rainbows is through... well, denial. Or more space magic. Neither of those is satisfactory for people who actually care about the lore of the Mass Effect setting.

All the ezo from the reapers sitting in sol?  how much fuel you need?

It's the food/water that is the issue, 2 1/2 years travel.. and thats for the geth/quarians.  They are all set.
about a year for the rest.  And of course this needs the time to refit, Thankfully the arms of the citadel are still in tact, and still have communication with quantum entanglement, so the brightest minds of the universe (ok just the galaxy) are still at the disposal of the resolving the issues, and the setup of the Quarian fleet as models for the other fleets.

The crucible was built in what?? days?? I don't think it would beyond monumental to get everything setup for departure and routes planned in under 2 months.  It's just how long it takes to reverse engineer the reaper ftl drives.

The fact that there is still open channels of communication is huge in keeping the various races intact.  The Krogans are the only ones that will have a tough time handleing it.

TBH this can be argued a few ways, until there is further information, we are free to invision it as we each see it.

Didn't the Quarians have Live Ships at Earth? And don't these have hydroponics/other food producing capabilites? As far as food I don't think the Quarians will be in bad shape at all. They could even share with the Turians. 

[No_MSG]

Redbelle wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...I do wish there was some way to use the Crucible to shut off/delete/destroy the Catalyst all by himself that didn't involve one of the 3 choice/warcrime/sacrifices.Would be almost as satisfying as stabbing Lieutenant Bastard Kai Leng.

That's the thing, as this ending is now written, I can't comprehend the starkid being the Catalyst.  He isn't working for any kind of logical good.  And the options he gives are not any kind of logically good choices.  Also, if he's been there all along and could control the reapers (so he says), he is definitely the worst evil in the game.  The reapers aren't.  They are doing what they are forced to do.  And any thing that could control the reapers must be capable of just stopping them without requiring the Crucible.  It just seems like building the Crucible is what a teacher of mine used to call "busy work".  That's something to keep you busy that has no meaning or importance.  Keeps you from having idle hands.

What do you expect from a Star Kid whose 50,000 yrs x ?yrs out of date.

I would like to shoot it. I've used my imagination to make the end not terrible, like people tell me to do. I always get stuck at the part where I team up with the guy who enslaved a race to commit genocide for it every 50,000 years. It must've been that +2 unlimited ammo pistol of priority changing I picked up. And to think, I was annoyed when I was steamrolled into helping TIM.





It's like in WWII, when Jesus stormed Hitler's bunker, except instead of shooting Hitler in the head, Jesus high fives Hitler, then chooses between controling the ****s, making everyone Aryan (the preferred solution), or destroying the ****s, but also Switzerland and Oskar Schindler.





Because remember kids, Hitler believed he had a solution, too.

[Archonsg]

Uber Rod wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
@ The fleets stranded in the Sol system.

This would include a lot speculation, so I cut it.

Based on the knowledge of distances in the galaxy and the current technology, it's going to take years for fleets to be able to get back to places, and that's assuming that they can find the necessary fuel to keep travelling. Many places in the galaxy were dependent on Mass Relays - with them gone, the situation may not be catastrophic, but there are certainly going to be a heck of a lot more casualties before civilisations recover. And we're not just talking one civilisation here. We're talking every single civilisation in the galaxy.

The only way it can be all roses, puppies and rainbows is through... well, denial. Or more space magic. Neither of those is satisfactory for people who actually care about the lore of the Mass Effect setting.

All the ezo from the reapers sitting in sol?  how much fuel you need?

It's the food/water that is the issue, 2 1/2 years travel.. and thats for the geth/quarians.  They are all set.
about a year for the rest.  And of course this needs the time to refit, Thankfully the arms of the citadel are still in tact, and still have communication with quantum entanglement, so the brightest minds of the universe (ok just the galaxy) are still at the disposal of the resolving the issues, and the setup of the Quarian fleet as models for the other fleets.

The crucible was built in what?? days?? I don't think it would beyond monumental to get everything setup for departure and routes planned in under 2 months.  It's just how long it takes to reverse engineer the reaper ftl drives.

The fact that there is still open channels of communication is huge in keeping the various races intact.  The Krogans are the only ones that will have a tough time handleing it.

TBH this can be argued a few ways, until there is further information, we are free to invision it as we each see it.

Didn't the Quarians have Live Ships at Earth? And don't these have hydroponics/other food producing capabilites? As far as food I don't think the Quarians will be in bad shape at all. They could even share with the Turians. 

Doesn't work that way. 
Think EZO as like the material needed to make something but you burn HE2 for fuel. 
Example, you Iron and copper to make an electro magnet but will need to burn some form of fuel to create electricity to power said magnet.

And in a way, an EZO core is just that, a Gravitational magnet that changes an object's mass (hense mass effect) when electricity is passed through it.

But, like any other engineering work, there are ways to make magnets, and then THERE ARE WAYS.  
Also, its not as simple as cutting out a system and grafting it to a vehicle (well maybe it is, we don't know, but from experience, IT'S NEVER THAT SIMPLE)  and making it work.

As for food. 
Only the Quarians and Turians aren't too badly off, but consider this, the Quarians are strict on their own population, how many births per family for the simple reason that the can only sustain xxx number of people at any one time without spirialling out of control in regards to keeping themselves alive. 
Also, from a militarilistic point of view, you NEVER commit all your forces, nor put your most valued assests especially those that are essential to logistics such as feeding your population on the front line. Not even by a long shot.

It's very likely that they brought just enough live ships to support the armada for a week, balancing the risk of loosing them as well as the rest of the Fighting force with enough ships left behind to feed thier non combatants. And the Quarians do have non combatant ships / units as was repeatedly mentioned in ME2.

Support ships who are now very likely on Rannoch and several years worth of travel from Earth. 

The victory fleet in Earthspace faces a grim reality indeed, IF we take our current ending "as is".

Hence the EC has to come up with a good logical way to get them help, insert yet another dues ex machina and save them, or yet more space magic  and hope we'll swallow yet more unexplainable miracles to pull the fleet out of the fire especially with the Relays destroyed.

IF they retcon the ending to show that the relays only overloaded and shut down, that'll up the fleet chances by a huge margin. 

But, if they are going to retcon that, might as well retcon the space child, normandy miracle dead crew / paradise island crash out as well.

Modifié par Archonsg, 13 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[thompsonman]

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

[Halie Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Halie Star wrote...

   I want a happy ending. A happily ever after ending. I think my femshep has deserved a happily ever after ending. OK I am going    Please.

I agree with you-at least the possibility of an all out happy ending should be there.  Love interest and friends and Earth and the fleets are saved and Joker stayed to help you fight and win a glorious victory.

Unfortunately, there seem to be some who think the ending is ok and don't think the game should have any kind of happy ending.  They think that's silly.  I don't know how they can think it's any sillier than the scene of Joker and your friends on that jungle planet, but....

Or there are those that think the high EMS Shepard gasps ending is a happy one.  I don't know how that can be when we still have at the very least the super silly scene of Joker, friends, jungle planet, mass relays destroyed (and the only consequence of such destruction already being shown in the game), stranded fleets, unknown fate of other surviving friends, LI maybe having to choose someone else for procreation if that is even possible, and many other things.  Sorry, that isn't happy.  That's confused, mixed up, unsatisfying, un-fun.

The choices that were made in Mass effect 1 & 2, should reflect in Mass Effect 3. I felt like the control of my femshep was loosing control. I didn't like that feeling. RPG's have replay value with multiple endings. I don't feel that yet. I hope they come. I know it's silly, but I felt totally lost. My control was taken from my femshep. I want it back.  

[3DandBeyond]

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[3DandBeyond]

What still amazes me is the star kid's "logic" about the created destroying the creator, when all throughout the game there are instances where it's the reverse taking place. Samara and Morinth-Samara was chasing Morinth to destroy her. The Geth/Quarian-Geths gained sentience and didn't want to be mere slaves anymore, so the Quarians sought to shut them off.

This seems to recur a lot in the game, but we are left with the opposite logic as if it were really logic.

[Benchpress610]

@3DandBeyond.
 
I like your signature; I would just add an additional choice if you don’t mind:
Hold on! You have 2 choices - Run and Run faster…oh wait…you have a third choice: Don’t run, you’d die tired. 
 

[thompsonman]

3DandBeyond wrote...

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

wow... your really  intence man! thats a bit of work putting all that together.  in all honesty what made the ending so good for me was the journey getting there. 

[3DandBeyond]

@thompsonman,
That took no time or effort whatsoever and I'm not a man.  Actually it encompasses a lot, but not all of the issues that we find bothersome about the ending.

All of us loved the journey, but if I'm taking a trip to see Niagara Falls and I end up at a waste dump, I don't care how good the journey was, I'm still sitting at a waste dump and I don't want to take the trip again if I keep ending up at a waste dump.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[NiNakaWarrior]

@thompsonman
So... you did not like the ending? Or did you? Because, like 3DandBeyond said, I'd really like to understand how anyone can be okay with the ending, let alone think it's 'awesome'.

@3DandBeyond
I'd just like to let you know that I agree with (pretty much) everything you're saying about the ending. Especially about how it's just empty.

I hope Bioware is still listening and they'll decide to really change or add something valuable to the ending. Right now I'm afraid that we're going to end up with lame explanations of how no one is starving to death, etcetera. While all we really need is a way to just shut that Starchild up.

[HunLevente]

My favourite person counting all 3 games is Marauder Shields.
He knew what was beyond the beam. He knew we don't want to see that. He trained a lifetime to save us from experiencing that.

All hail Marauder Shields! The last true friend of Commander Shepard!

Modifié par HunLevente, 13 mai 2012 - 09:08 .

[Redbelle]

HunLevente wrote...

My favourite person counting all 3 games is Marauder Shields.
He knew what was beyond the beam. He knew we don't want to see that. He trained a lifetime to save us from experiencing that.

All hail Marauder Shields! The last true friend of Commander Shepard!

Some say that Shields is the husk incarnation of Nihlus, the spectre killed by Saren in ME1.

[Benchpress610]

thompsonman wrote...
wow... your really  intence man! thats a bit of work putting all that together.  in all honesty what made the ending so good for me was the journey getting there. 

It was a great journey including the two previous games. We all loved it. The problem is the ending cheappens it and makes it meaningless

Modifié par Benchpress610, 13 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[HunLevente]

Redbelle wrote...

HunLevente wrote...

My favourite person counting all 3 games is Marauder Shields.
He knew what was beyond the beam. He knew we don't want to see that. He trained a lifetime to save us from experiencing that.

All hail Marauder Shields! The last true friend of Commander Shepard!

Some say that Shields is the husk incarnation of Nihlus, the spectre killed by Saren in ME1.

Wow... I've never thought of that. Maybe Powell smuggled his body to the Reapers.

Oh..and I've almost forgot. He did kill me on my first run (oo..walk) to the beam. I didn't notice his generous act until I loaded my game and murdered him with cold blood. If I have knew that... I would have thanked him.

Forever remember him.

Modifié par HunLevente, 13 mai 2012 - 11:43 .

[TheOriginalDawg]

So everyone has said their piece on the endings, I wrote this two months ago to a freind but the community here seems to keep having me question more about the ending so I added and edited more to this:

The Arrival DLC:
 In the Arrival DLC Shepard is told that the destruction of a mass
effect relay would destroy an entire system with the destructive force
of a supernova. In which of course at the end of the mission you end up
destroying the relay and killing nearly half a million Batarians and
that system is no longer accessible. This sets up the events for Mass
Effect 3 and why Shepard was reprimanded. So at the end of ME3 all the
relays get destroyed and everything SHOULD be dead and any system with a relay should be
destroyed which doesn't happen and hence is a contradiction.  Right?

 Javik:
If you have the Collector's edition of the game or downloaded "From
Ashes" DLC it  includes a new squad member, Javik. The Prothean squad
mate gives you probably the single most damaging thing to the
ending...hope. He even states this himself a few times noting that
during his time the races were not united and fought under only one
banner. Due to this tactic, the races of his time couldn't adapt to the assualt of the Reapers. He states that in the current cycle the races are unique and have different ways
of fighting, and that coming together may be the galaxy's only way to win. He
continues to point out how Shepard may actually have a chance at
defeating the Reapers but in the end everything you've done all the
people you've sacrificed or saved means nothing.

 The Normandy:
How'd Joker know to jump out when the catalyst was activated? When did he take it upon himself to leave the battle and pick up your squad? Since when do Marines run from
battle?

Harvesting

Is it me or does harvesting seem like a lie? The reapers leave primitive organics untouched but yet harverst developed organics DNA in a gruesome fashion. Shepard even states that they harvest those that can threaten them. To me this just seems like a front and that the real reason they harvest advanced organics is for a more basic and frieghting truth...Food. Why not take the DNA of advanced organics and add it to the biomechicanical circuitry of a Reaper (or whatever they got running in there)? That would support why they are claimed to be vastly intelligent due to eons of advanced DNA being ingested by them. What else is the point of collecting and harvesting advanced organics if the product is not used in any other fashion? Why else would they leave primitive organics to flourish?  I think it makes sense that once the organics are close to the apex of their evolution they are at the point where they could potentially hunt down and destroy the Reapers which in turn would be time for them to come in...and feed.

The Crucible and The Catalyst:

This is probably where most of the issues go south. You spend
countless hours to find out what the catalyst is and when you do the
enemy finds out what you're doing and via the Illusive man jump the one
thing that could be their undoing into the heat of battle. WTF, yeah you
could argue that they used it as bait but then they still risk the fact
that the organics can get to it and use it against them which actually
ends up happening. The smart thing they should have done was to jump it
as far away as possible so that organics would have to scour the galaxy
to find it and use it. So I guess the heaviest Reaper forces are on Earth and so the jump the Catalyst in to protect it?

So this Godchild/Starchild/Ghostchild/Entity/Master control kid or indoctrinated illusion(?) tells you
that he's controlling the Reapers and has been all along and he's been
on the catalyst/Citadel this whole time. Then you get 3 lame choices on what to
do but you should get a 4th choice which is to tell the kid to stay out of grown folks business and tell Hackett to have all the fleets focus fire on the
catalyst which would destroy control of the Reapers and thus killing
them or freeing them depending on how you look at it. Or maybe Shepard  should have the choice to activate the crucible or to destroy the crucible/catalyst eventhough you spent time and resources builing it there should be a option to reject the kid's logic and forge your own way. The Crucible doesn't seem like a saving grace just more like a big
battery.

In the synergy/synthesis choice Shepard robs every organic of it's
individuality and makes a damning choice for every organic. I thought
Shepard was fighting for the intregrity and individual soul of every
organic with the galaxy's armies on his/her back?

It still kinda feels
like the Reapers still win unless I choose destroy which sacrifices a
new race but yet  trumps the kid's logic on why they had to die.

In the end it doesn't feel like I "Took Back Earth" it's more like I made a deal with the devil. I don't feel like I saved the galaxy I feel like I condemed it. 

Modifié par TheOriginalDawg, 13 mai 2012 - 11:31 .

[LiarasShield]

3DandBeyond wrote...

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

See the funny thing is is that people who say the ending is great or amazing can't give any real true decent reasons for why it's great and for a series like mass effect about choices and decisions and consequences of said decision the ending is just as important as the journey and is suppose to make sense and be meaningful not fall apart at the last min

But yeah Most ending lovers can only say it is great but can't really give decent reasons for why it is great but those of us who loath the ending can give very decent valid reasons for why we hate the ending why it doesn't make sense and why it does not feel like a victory

Shepard giving into the flawed logic that organics must be destroyed by synthetics so that organics won't make synthetics that will destroy them I'm sorry this once again makes little to no sense

And yes joker leaving with loyal crew when joker saved shepard and the others on the collector base could barely abandon the normandy at the begining of mass effect 2 and shepard had to pull his ass out of the cockpit or when joker played as a distraction during grissom academy giving shepard time to save jack and her kids or the biotic children from grissom academy and many other scenarios that paint the pure clear picture that joker would never abandon shepard or his or her squad let alone the entire fleet fighting against the reapers to save the galaxy no I'm sorry can't accept that joker would do a complete 360 and say **** you to the galaxy and have us all potentially be annhilated by the reapers

Let alone magically picking up your squad who would fight with you to the end and followed you as you charged towards the beam up to the citadel and getting hit by harbingers beam I'm sorry either they're dead or extremely wounded but they wouldn't be a ok without a scratch one nor would they just let joker take off without a care in the world leyt alone joker himself doing so

And once again shepard has always fought for another way has always refused to give in even in the face of death or impossiable odds so all of sudden shepard just lays down and die without fighting back or looking for another way or making the reapers have to give them all to kill him or her I'm sorry shepard became a zombie in the final minutes no longer was shepard this powerful noble hero who fought with tooth and nail to save the galaxy he or she became a mindless drone that just gave up to illogical nonsense to make a suicide with really no pay off

And The quarians have a hard time survivng as it is why do you think that they have the young ones go on a pilgrimage to bring resourceful things back to the flotila because they're resources are not that fast and the civilian
ships and most of the important rescources are being used to secure rannoch so once again that tells me that because the relays are destroyed they won't be able to get important rescources to the flotilla to help them out or the turians

At best the quarians and geth will live the longest out of all the races trapt in our hurt solar system but whos to say that old ways or at least when the quarians start begining to run low on food and rescources try to attack to geth to attempt to gain more or use their advanced tech in hope of trying to escape our solar system in the end it still goes back to how nobody reallys wins and how the catalyst and the reapers have the last laugh

[Holger1405]

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
For any given organic species, under the Reapers, that organic species will be killed. There is no contradiction. [/quote]
True of course, but what is the point? Assuming that Catalyst's logic is correct, other Synthetics will exterminate every Organic species definitely. If you belief in this logic, and Catalyst obvious beliefs in his own logic, than his "solution" is a improvement, because Organic species still could develop in any cycle, over long periods of time and many generations, until the Reaper attack.[/quote]
This still renders organic life completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it gets exterminated the synthetic life created by organics, because the Reapers would kill it off anyway. [/quote]
What you are basically saying here is that the opportunity that new Organic life is evolving in any new cycle, isn't better than his completely extinction. Sorry, but that's a logic I don't get.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
What is the point? I keep asking myself that question. I still haven't found any reasonable or plausible answer. A story should never do that. Basically the solution says that "organic life is worthless" (because it is always exterminated), but then insists that it must be protected from destruction. It can say "but we store it in Reaper form", but Reaper form still means that those organics do not exist and will never exist again. That's not valuing organic life. That's turning it into a tool. [/quote]
No it doesn't says that "organic life is worthless", even when you think that the Catalyst logic is unsound, as I do, you have to admit that, in his twisted logic, he tries to protect the overall existence of Organic life over his complete extinction. That, by all means, is nowhere near rendering "organic life completely irrelevant."

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
The only real examples we do have of synthetics are the Geth and EDI, and both of those are capable of living peacefully with organics. The series undermines the very premise on which the ending is based. The only synthetic life (if it is actually synthetic life) that is systematically eradicating organic life is the Reapers. i.e. They are the problem. They kill organics. They are not solving anything. [/quote]
But I disagree about that "the series undermines the very premise on which the ending is based", in my opinion, the only thing the Series is undermining, is Catalyst's logic.

And this is the important point. Imho it is not necessary that Catalyst's logic has to be right, to set the premise for the ending, or even the entire Mass Effect saga. The only thing which is necessary is that the Player accepts that Star Child beliefs in his logic.
[/quote]
I honestly don't think that we're actually going to come to an agreement here, because you are happy to accept that the endings we are given are based on flawed logic. Please explain to me how this makes sense or makes the endings worthwhile or satisfactory. At best, in literary terms, it would
be the ending for a fatalistic tragedy. Mass Effect is not a fatalistic tragedy, thus the ending does not fit. I would love for someone to explain why any of the endings have any sort of value or meaning, because no one has been able to do so. This should never happen in a well told story - let alone one that its creators claim is "artistic".
The Catalyst's logic is what provides the basis for the ending. It is the logic which underpins the choices players are given. If the logic that provides those choices is flawed, then the choices are flawed and thus worthless. To me, that's wholly unacceptable. Why should players be forced to make a decision that doesn't make sense? It doesn't matter that the Catalyst believes in its choices. It has to appear logical to the player. Effectively the ending tells the player: "you are irrelevant." A game should never, ever do that. If I, the player, am irrelevant, then I may as well be watching a movie. I believe that may be part of the problem - that the writers thought they were making a movie. They were not. [/quote]
You didn't quoted a important part of my last post:
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
The Catalyst stated: "the Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen." That, imho, means that this "new possibility's" are created by the Crucible not the Catalyst and so are not bound to the Catalyst logic. [/quote]

This "new possibility's" are the choices given to the Player in the very end, so no, I don't think the endings are based on Catalyst's imho wrong logic.
I would even go one step further, and say that Catalyst logic has to be wrong, because when his logic would be sound, then the Reapers were a good "solution", and that, as a matter of fact, would indeed render the complete premise of the Mass Effect universe worthless.


[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Here's a fourth ending. Catalyst: "You have changed the solution and there will be a catastrophic failure if you do not remove yourself from the equation of existence. You need to commit suicide for the solution to continue." Yes, I can rip that concept straight from Matrix Reloaded, and it makes just as much sense as the other options we are given, i.e. none. [/quote]

I thought we wouldn't refer to other works of art to make our point? :-)

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Having endings predicated on false logic and forcing the player to accept those as the ONLY options is a terrible game mechanic and hideous writing. This is railroading: forcing the player to do something stupid or illogical. It's like when a game forces you into a trap, even though you as a character (i.e. only with in-game knowledge) know that it's a trap, but still the game forces you into the trap. ME3 effectively does this to the player at the end of a three game series. That is unequivocally bad game design.
[/quote]

I did make my points against (the) "endings predicated on false logic" above, and also in other post's, furthermore I don't think that the choices you are given are a "trap" and I do think that you as the Player have, with in game knowledge only, every opportunity to recognize that.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
<The Normandy scene> makes no sense at all. It's a massive plot hole and for me the most illogical part of the ending. Still, I don't understand why are you referring to it as some act of mutiny. I think you and me, as, for this matter, almost any other ME Player, will agree that neither Joker, nor the rest of the crew, would never ever leave Shepard, or the battle, without a very good reason.

This reason not pointed out to us is a great mistake from Bioware. To say it even more clearly, I think it would be best if they not leaving at all, at least in some endings, after the DLC is released.
[/quote]
This is one problem with the ending. The radio transmission of "everyone is dead" is another. The Mass Relays "exploding" in a "special" explosion that magically doesn't kill everyone despite that being shown to players in Arrival is yet another. There are so many holes in the ending if you actually bother to examine it more than at a superficial level. [/quote]

The radio transmission didn't bothers me much, I considered it a battlefield mistake due to insufficient recce.
I will come lather to the Mass Relays explosions.
But true, there are holes in the ending, and Bioware did announced the DLC, and despite the fact that this holes shouldn't be there in the first place, that is something they hasn't to do. So I will wait until I make my final judgment.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
This video files of that scene are named "End03_Shepard_Alive_Male" or "End03_Shepard_Alive_Fem" plus there is no other explanation for this scene whatsoever, then Bioware saying Shepard did survive.
Second: And more important, this scene is canon proof that Shepard is alive.
[/quote]
I see you relying on this a lot to support your argument. I'm afraid I have to pop this little bubble of hope/justification you keep returning to. [/quote]

One off the reasons I am here for, (aside several others.) is to test "this little bubble of hope/justification" against other opinions, so please continue.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
One, you're using meta-knowledge to support your argument. Good storytelling should not require that. [/quote]

True, but I used that "meta-knowledge" against a point of few, that imho, based only on a biased outlook towards the endings, plus I stated that my second point was more important.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Two, the naming of game files or resources is by no means indicative. If you've ever examined game resources from any released title, you'll quickly realise that what files are named may or may not bear a resemblance to their actual content. This is an argument based entirely on supposition.
Lastly, there is no canon Shepard. BioWare have stated repeatedly that no one Shepard in canon. That not the way the story was ever designed. To renege on that now would be to render the series moot. [/quote]

Even when you consider that's the naming of this video files are somehow inaccurate in relation to their meaning, (what I don't do.) please tell me which other possible meaning this scene could have.

@ canon
Of course there is no "canon Shepard" that would be ridiculous. One Shepard saved Ashley, another saved Kaiden, to say one Shepard's action is canon and the other Shepar's action is not would undermine the very meaning of canon.
Still there is the overall canon of the Game, and in this canon it is possible that Shepard save Ashley, as it is also possible that Shepard saved Kaidan, but it is not possible to save both. So the option to save only one of them becomes canon.
In the end it is possible that Shepard dies, it is also possible that Shepard survives, both are, again, in the overall Game, canon, not in the personally Game of a Player because she/he can only achieve one outcome. (so no canon Shepard)


[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
@ The fleets stranded in the Sol system.

This would include a lot speculation, so I cut it.
[/quote]
Based on the knowledge of distances in the galaxy and the current technology, it's going to take years for fleets to be able to get back to places, and that's assuming that they can find the necessary fuel to keep travelling. Many places in the galaxy were dependent on Mass Relays - with them gone, the situation may not be catastrophic, but there are certainly going to be a heck of a lot more casualties before civilisations recover. And we're not just talking one civilisation here. We're talking every single civilisation in the galaxy. [/quote]

So, let's cut the cut on speculations....
I would go further, imho it is completely impossible for the fleets to go back to their home worlds without a Mass Relay. (although Voodoo-j made a good point about this, still, for time issues, I wasn't able to do the math be myself yet, so for the time being I stand to my original assumption.)

But why should it be impossible to build new ones?
Matriarch Aethyta already made this proposal, so it is most probably in the technical scope of the Asari, plus, by coincidences,  this fleets have a group of scientists, engineers, technicians and thieves, (Ok probably only one thief.) gathered together that just built a pretty big device of incredible complexity.

And btw these Fleets have one Mass Relay left, it called Citadel, and no it is not been destroyed, in none of the endings. Watch YouTube if you don't belief me.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
The only way it can be all roses, puppies and rainbows is through... well, denial. Or more space magic. Neither of those is satisfactory for people who actually care about the lore of the Mass Effect setting. [/quote]

Please point me to my the statement where I called the outcome "all roses, puppies and rainbows", or at least something similar. I say it again, imho there should be no easy victory, no "all roses, puppies and rainbows" ending, not in this story. That didn't means that there should be no Happy ending, it just deepens how you are define "Happy ending."

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
As I said, my Shepard, my Squad, Joker (imho also Edi, but that is up to discussion) and the crew of the Normandy are alive. I destroyed the Reapers and saved Earth plus the rest of the Galaxy. This is imho not only a Victory, it is a Great Victory.
[/quote]
EDI isn't alive if you picked destroy. She's synthetic life. A true AI. If you're saying that she survived the destroy ending, then you're blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you. Once you start doing that, all bets are off because you're deliberately and wilfully ignoring the facts the game presents you in order to get the victory that you desire. At this point, your argument disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays. [/quote]

I said that this is open to debate, and this is strictly about EDI. I am more than capable to separate what may be wishful thinking from real facts.

Catalyst didn't mentioned her, and Joker looked not very depressed as he left the Normandy and, we are back to canon again... in this case the answer will come at the earliest with the DLC.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
but again, that's what many people have been saying about the ending for a long time.
[/quote]

You are not using this as a valid argument, do you?

Modifié par Holger1405, 13 mai 2012 - 11:48 .

[LiarasShield]

not acceptable really and how some think it is baffles mes

[Holger1405]

Ok not to myself, don't try to Post when you are very tired!

Modifié par Holger1405, 14 mai 2012 - 12:01 .

[Holger1405]

double <_<

Modifié par Holger1405, 13 mai 2012 - 11:57 .

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

See the funny thing is is that people who say the ending is great or amazing can't give any real true decent reasons for why it's great and for a series like mass effect about choices and decisions and consequences of said decision the ending is just as important as the journey and is suppose to make sense and be meaningful not fall apart at the last min

But yeah Most ending lovers can only say it is great but can't really give decent reasons for why it is great but those of us who loath the ending can give very decent valid reasons for why we hate the ending why it doesn't make sense and why it does not feel like a victory

Shepard giving into the flawed logic that organics must be destroyed by synthetics so that organics won't make synthetics that will destroy them I'm sorry this once again makes little to no sense

And yes joker leaving with loyal crew when joker saved shepard and the others on the collector base could barely abandon the normandy at the begining of mass effect 2 and shepard had to pull his ass out of the cockpit or when joker played as a distraction during grissom academy giving shepard time to save jack and her kids or the biotic children from grissom academy and many other scenarios that paint the pure clear picture that joker would never abandon shepard or his or her squad let alone the entire fleet fighting against the reapers to save the galaxy no I'm sorry can't accept that joker would do a complete 360 and say **** you to the galaxy and have us all potentially be annhilated by the reapers

Let alone magically picking up your squad who would fight with you to the end and followed you as you charged towards the beam up to the citadel and getting hit by harbingers beam I'm sorry either they're dead or extremely wounded but they wouldn't be a ok without a scratch one nor would they just let joker take off without a care in the world leyt alone joker himself doing so

And once again shepard has always fought for another way has always refused to give in even in the face of death or impossiable odds so all of sudden shepard just lays down and die without fighting back or looking for another way or making the reapers have to give them all to kill him or her I'm sorry shepard became a zombie in the final minutes no longer was shepard this powerful noble hero who fought with tooth and nail to save the galaxy he or she became a mindless drone that just gave up to illogical nonsense to make a suicide with really no pay off

And The quarians have a hard time survivng as it is why do you think that they have the young ones go on a pilgrimage to bring resourceful things back to the flotila because they're resources are not that fast and the civilian
ships and most of the important rescources are being used to secure rannoch so once again that tells me that because the relays are destroyed they won't be able to get important rescources to the flotilla to help them out or the turians

At best the quarians and geth will live the longest out of all the races trapt in our hurt solar system but whos to say that old ways or at least when the quarians start begining to run low on food and rescources try to attack to geth to attempt to gain more or use their advanced tech in hope of trying to escape our solar system in the end it still goes back to how nobody reallys wins and how the catalyst and the reapers have the last laugh

You know what I really saw at the ending the death of the human spirit that is what I saw instead of never giving up and stand our ground or no matter how hard you get hit it isn't about how hard you hit but how hard you get hit and keep on moving how much you can take and keep pushing forward I saw the death of human spirit shepard giving up and seeing the powerful human spirit destroyed that is what I saw

And No I don't think this is a good lesson to either the younger audience or for the older adults because it is pretty much saying you can give 110% percent but no matter what you do in the end you will still fail

NO THAT IS NOT A GOOD LESSON

[3DandBeyond]

I agree the basic thing that Shepard does, that Shepard wouldn't do is almost the biggest deal and game breaker for me-Shepard gives up and gives in. Not the way I see Shepard. It is demoralizing when playing this game, because it doesn't matter which type you played, Paragon or Renegade, it wouldn't happen. It does signal the death of the human spirit and determination, as you say LiaraShield.