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[daveyeisley]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Here's an idea, I've tried to make it as cgi-additionless as possible.

See, this would be an "extreme-uber-completionist" ending, only doable if you did everything in ME1, ME2 and ME3 (including the planet scanning, Keeper scanning, etc). Or, maybe just for Galactic Readiness at +7000, if you promote 200 fighters. You get the idea.

*Spoiler Warning*
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Scene begins as you faint...little Casper the Kidly Ghost leans over and says: "Wake Up"

Shep: "What?"

---enter all prior data, about 3 choices, but insert after the 3rd choice--

Shep: "Wait, so you're telling me that you have been upgraded? We added to you?"

CKG: "This has never happened before. Only when I was built did anything ever come close to this moment."

Shep: "That makes you sound like mostly a machine...like the Reapers?"

CKG: "Yes. My creations. My solution. Like me, they were made with a purpose. Like me, they will overcome everything. Even you, exceptional as you are, would not be here without my help (elevator flashback)."

Shep: "So what can I do?"

CKG: "Choose. That is the purpose of our existence. Only now can our two paths finally converge. What will you decide? To control that infinitely your greater? To destroy allies whom have sacrificed to help you? Or to bind that which hurts you, and make it a part of you?"

Shep: "Can I talk to my ship? My crew?"

CKG: "They cannot help you."

Shep: "But if this is going to make a difference, I need to know what they think."

CKG: "Limited organic flesh. If you must."

Shep: *aside-speaking quickly into omnitool* EDI, what's your status?"

EDI: "Shepard, we are under attack."

Joker: *interrupting* "Hey yeah, what did you 'think' our status was? How's that weapon coming?"

Shep: "EDI, listen carefully, the weapon added capabilities to the Citadel, it's plugged in directly to the AI that controls the Reapers, if you and the Geth-" *static*

CKG: "No. You will not defeat us that way. Choose."

Shep: "You talk big about combining our differences, about becoming greater than we were going to be alone. What do you pay for that?"

CKG: "We need not pay anything. We have guarded the galaxy-"

Shep:*interrupt* "You have murdered millions of trillions of lives, that's what you have done. And now what, I'm supposed to just enable you to live, just because you hold the Geth hostage to your death?"

CKG: "You have no choice. You have every choice. It is your decision."

Shep: "All right, I choose. I choose to believe in my people. I choose to make murderers pay for their crimes, a crime against not only humanity, but every organic and inorganic race in the galaxy."

----Cutscene: Joker flying the Normandy through the relays, EDI clutching her head with both hands, several Geth onboard the Normandy still and silent.--Cut to Earth: thousands of Geth dreadnaughts going silent, tens of thousands of Geth fighters randomly moving--

CKG: "Organics and artificial life have never cooperated. This is the first-"

Shep: "Yeah, I know. How do I trust what you say? All I've seen from your Sovereign is deceit and lies; Harbinger tricked and used others to do his dirty work. Why should their creator be any different? For all I know, you destroyed all potential inorganic life, genocide piled on top of murder."

CKG: *faint blurring* You don't know...what is happening?"

Shep: "You tried it. You won for a long time. But some things, like justice, and honor, never can be killed. You will pay for everything you've done."

--Cutscene: CKG is sending energy after the Normandy, trying to destroy EDI, who is spearheading the Geth assault--Cut to Geth continuum: billions of Geth programs are attacking the Citadel central intelligence processor, EDI directing. With their raw power, and her newfound humanity, the ancient AI is slowly but surely being undercut, overwhelmed and overwritten.--

CKG: *fuzzing more and more* "NO! This will not happen!"

Shep: "In the name of all the races of the galaxy, I pronounce you guilty of crimes beyond our civilization, against every civilization. I don't know if we can kill you, or even if we can put you in jail, but we sure will try."

--Cutscene: Reapers, losing their central command, begin moving erratically. Two crash into each other, one drops its shields. Groundside, a team of Salarians direct Krogans, who are using a stockpiled weapon of mass destruction, to launch a stubby missile-like projectile in between a pair of Destroyer class Reapers, knocking them over. Turians and Rachni swarm over the collapsed monsters-- More scenes if increasingly dis-coordinated Reapers falling prey to independently focused attacks: Quarian and Alliance vessels destroy a full size Reaper, Harbinger coming in the distance--

CKG: *fading rapidly* "If I can't stop you from killing me..I'll at least take you with me..."

Shep: *looking outside, sees Harbinger on a collision course with the Citadel*

EDI: "Shepherd, we have taken control. Orders?"

--Options: Control, Destroy, Synthesize--

Shep: "Take them down EDI. I'm sorry I couldn't be around to see all that will be happening. You have my gratitude, and my pride. Well done."

EDI: "Shepherd, there is another Mass Relay, about two meters to your left, if you can-"

--Cutscene: Shepherd leaping to the left, just as Harbinger explodes through the wall of the CItadel--

--Cutscene: Shepherds body in rubble, gasping for air, if you made the right choices--

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Okay, that's what I got. Improvements can be applied as you see fit, I will give it to anyone who wants to use it, including Bioware

I am unfamiliar with the usage of Forums, so if someone could post this to the right spot, or tell me where it goes, I would be grateful. E-mail or respond to this, I will do my best to keep tabs on it.

I liked this. Would be very cool to have this concept incorporated as a possible outcome. Very well done.

[AmstradHero]

I've cut out irrelevant points of the discussion that were going around in circles.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
This still renders organic life completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it gets exterminated the synthetic life created by organics, because the Reapers would kill it off anyway. [/quote]
What you are basically saying here is that the opportunity that new Organic life is evolving in any new cycle, isn't better than his completely extinction. Sorry, but that's a logic I don't get.
[/quote]
Okay. Let's say take a hypothetical here. I'm going about my ordinary life, then one day I'm killed. In an alternate universe, I'm not killed that day, but I'm killed the day after. What lasting significant meaning does that extra day have to anyone? Practically none.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Basically the solution says that "organic life is worthless" (because it is always exterminated), but then insists that it must be protected from destruction. [/quote]
No it doesn't says that "organic life is worthless", even when you think that the Catalyst logic is unsound, as I do, you have to admit that, in his twisted logic, he tries to protect the overall existence of Organic life over his complete extinction. That, by all means, is nowhere near rendering "organic life completely irrelevant."
[/quote]
The Reapers are the solution. Sovereign says: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation; an accident." I don't know about you, but if I got called an "accident" I'd consider that being told I'm irrelevant. At best, the Catalyst makes Sovereign a pathetic, deluded and ignorant fool. Sovereign was at least a hundred times more interesting than the Catalyst, so I'd rather not have them undermine the power and mystique of the Reapers any more than they already have. I don't even give a toss about the Reapers anymore. They're just the plaything of some being of light. How hideously dull.

Plus, if it cares so much about preserving organic life (as the Reapers do in Reaper form, whatever that means), why does he quite happily offer you the option just to exterminate all those organic species in an instant? That's a pretty callous disregard for organic life. It just spent how many cycles "storing" organic life, but just because of one person, it's willing to eradicate them entirely. Again, that indicates to me that the Catalyst considers them worthless.

It gets even better when you consider what the Catalyst says about this option:"But it won't last". Meaning peace. It believes that destroy will lead to synthetics wiping out organics. It believes this, it also wipes out all preserved organic life up until this point, and somehow, the player is meant to accept that the Catalyst wants to preserve organic life. There's no logic in existence that can possibly argue that perspective.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
You didn't quoted a important part of my last post:
The Catalyst stated: "the Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen." That, imho, means that this "new possibility's" are created by the Crucible not the Catalyst and so are not bound to the Catalyst logic.

This "new possibility's" are the choices given to the Player in the very end, so no, I don't think the endings are based on Catalyst's imho wrong logic.

I would even go one step further, and say that Catalyst logic has to be wrong, because when his logic would be sound, then the Reapers were a good "solution", and that, as a matter of fact, would indeed render the complete premise of the Mass Effect universe worthless.
[/quote]
Again, these aren't new possibilities. They can't be new possibilities. For one - they're part of the citadel, which has been built for many, many, many cycles. It suddenly created new devices in the short ride that Shepard took up the magic space elevator? That's preposterous.

Even technology aside, we know these aren't new solutions.
Destroy is what came before the Reapers existed.
Control is what we have now.
Synthesis is arguably the only "new" option - but theoretically the Reapers are supposedly already some organic/synthetic hybrid (but that opens up a whole new can of plothole worms), so that's not a new option either.

No matter how you look at it, the Catalyst isn't telling the truth. Either it's asininely stupid, or wilfully deceiving the player. Both make the ending worthless.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Here's a fourth ending. Catalyst: "You have changed the solution and there will be a catastrophic failure if you do not remove yourself from the equation of existence. You need to commit suicide for the solution to continue." Yes, I can rip that concept straight from Matrix Reloaded, and it makes just as much sense as the other options we are given, i.e. none. [/quote]
I thought we wouldn't refer to other works of art to make our point? :-)
[/quote]
Fair call. I was merely attempting to demonstrate the derivative/nonsensical nature of the ending. Also, I was stating that the thematic significance of the ending should be proven by the game alone. The fact that I can randomly pull something from elsewhere and it's just as consistent somewhat demonstrates the inconsistency of the ending.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Having endings predicated on false logic and forcing the player to accept those as the ONLY options is a terrible game mechanic and hideous writing. This is railroading: forcing the player to do something stupid or illogical. It's like when a game forces you into a trap, even though you as a character (i.e. only with in-game knowledge) know that it's a trap, but still the game forces you into the trap. ME3 effectively does this to the player at the end of a three game series. That is unequivocally bad game design.
[/quote]
I did make my points against (the) "endings predicated on false logic" above, and also in other post's, furthermore I don't think that the choices you are given are a "trap" and I do think that you as the Player have, with in game knowledge only, every opportunity to recognize that.
[/quote]
I'm not sure you understood my point here. The issue is that the player is forced into a situation that they know as a character is non-sensical. They're forced to behave in a way that their character would not behave. It's like in Deus Ex Human Revolution, where Adam Jensen acts like a complete and utter moron in cutscenes even though you've gathered all the information that couldn't make the twists in the plot any clearer. I was practically yelling at my screen "Don't trust that woman, you stupid idiot, you've read at least a dozen emails that tell you exactly how rotten she is." Now, I did expect some railroading from that game. I sure as hell didn't expect it from Mass Effect, and most certainly not in the climax of the damn game.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
But why should it be impossible to build <mass relays> new ones?
Matriarch Aethyta already made this proposal, so it is most probably in the technical scope of the Asari, plus, by coincidences,  this fleets have a group of scientists, engineers, technicians and thieves, (Ok probably only one thief.) gathered together that just built a pretty big device of incredible complexity.

And btw these Fleets have one Mass Relay left, it called Citadel, and no it is not been destroyed, in none of the endings. Watch YouTube if you don't belief me.
[/quote]
Making the suggestion that they should research something is far from the same as doing it. Also, the Citadel isn't a Mass Relay. The reaper relay mentioned in ME1 is inactive and no one has a clue how to reactivate it. At best, you've got the exit end of the Prothean Conduit, which was only opened for a brief time in ME1 - we don't even know if anyone studied that further or figured out what they'd done. It was still wasn't anything like a proper Mass Relay, and you sure as heck can't "send" using it.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
The only way it can be all roses, puppies and rainbows is through... well, denial. Or more space magic. Neither of those is satisfactory for people who actually care about the lore of the Mass Effect setting. [/quote]

Please point me to my the statement where I called the outcome "all roses, puppies and rainbows", or at least something similar. I say it again, imho there should be no easy victory, no "all roses, puppies and rainbows" ending, not in this story. That didn't means that there should be no Happy ending, it just deepens how you are define "Happy ending."
[/quote]
Again, I think you misunderstood me. I'm stating that the outcome is very, very, bleak. Not to mention that mass genocide of all organic race that the Reapers ever harvested that Shepard potentially committed. Or become our new overlord. Or forced everyone to a "new genetic destiny". What a hero.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
As I said, my Shepard, my Squad, Joker (imho also Edi, but that is up to discussion) and the crew of the Normandy are alive. I destroyed the Reapers and saved Earth plus the rest of the Galaxy. This is imho not only a Victory, it is a Great Victory.
[/quote]
EDI isn't alive if you picked destroy. She's synthetic life. A true AI. If you're saying that she survived the destroy ending, then you're blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you. Once you start doing that, all bets are off because you're deliberately and wilfully ignoring the facts the game presents you in order to get the victory that you desire. At this point, your argument disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays. [/quote]
I said that this is open to debate, and this is strictly about EDI. I am more than capable to separate what may be wishful thinking from real facts.
Catalyst didn't mentioned her, and Joker looked not very depressed as he left the Normandy and, we are back to canon again... in this case the answer will come at the earliest with the DLC.
[/quote]
The Catalyst says that destroy will kill all synthetic life. EDI is synthetic life. She's painted as more advanced than the Geth. She has Reaper technology embedded in her. I don't see how this can be anything other than black and white. If BioWare handwave that away and keep EDI alive in the destroy, then sorry, that is surrendering artistic integrity.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
but again, that's what many people have been saying about the ending for a long time.
[/quote]
You are not using this as a valid argument, do you?
[/quote]
Do I really strike you as the type of person to use common opinion as rationale for a logical and literary discussion? I think the ending is poorly constructed and executed and outright inconsistent. I don't need anyone else's opinion to validate that.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 14 mai 2012 - 11:27 .

[daveyeisley]

From another thread regarding questions Shepard needs answered in order to make the final choice meaningful:

I've decided that the whole premise of the final choice having time-pressure and Shepard being forced into making it are completely artificial, contrived, and arbitrary.

The Catalyst is quite literally handing Shepard control of the situation.

There is no good reason Shepard cannot leverage this for more time and more information as follows:

"If I can destroy you and all synthetic life, or I can sacrifice myself to take control of you and the reapers, why don't I just hold your existence and 'free will' hostage in order to force you to stop killing people immediately, so I can have more time to analyze this all and talk to my people about it?"

"You don't stop killing us immediately, and I either take all your asses with me, or I get the admin password and make you all my ****es. Now what's it gonna be? Surrender unconditionally, or face the consequences. "

Modifié par daveyeisley, 14 mai 2012 - 08:54 .

[LKx]

if still listening, you should read this:
http://social.biowar...12042469-1.html

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

See the funny thing is is that people who say the ending is great or amazing can't give any real true decent reasons for why it's great and for a series like mass effect about choices and decisions and consequences of said decision the ending is just as important as the journey and is suppose to make sense and be meaningful not fall apart at the last min

But yeah Most ending lovers can only say it is great but can't really give decent reasons for why it is great but those of us who loath the ending can give very decent valid reasons for why we hate the ending why it doesn't make sense and why it does not feel like a victory

Shepard giving into the flawed logic that organics must be destroyed by synthetics so that organics won't make synthetics that will destroy them I'm sorry this once again makes little to no sense

And yes joker leaving with loyal crew when joker saved shepard and the others on the collector base could barely abandon the normandy at the begining of mass effect 2 and shepard had to pull his ass out of the cockpit or when joker played as a distraction during grissom academy giving shepard time to save jack and her kids or the biotic children from grissom academy and many other scenarios that paint the pure clear picture that joker would never abandon shepard or his or her squad let alone the entire fleet fighting against the reapers to save the galaxy no I'm sorry can't accept that joker would do a complete 360 and say **** you to the galaxy and have us all potentially be annhilated by the reapers

Let alone magically picking up your squad who would fight with you to the end and followed you as you charged towards the beam up to the citadel and getting hit by harbingers beam I'm sorry either they're dead or extremely wounded but they wouldn't be a ok without a scratch one nor would they just let joker take off without a care in the world leyt alone joker himself doing so

And once again shepard has always fought for another way has always refused to give in even in the face of death or impossiable odds so all of sudden shepard just lays down and die without fighting back or looking for another way or making the reapers have to give them all to kill him or her I'm sorry shepard became a zombie in the final minutes no longer was shepard this powerful noble hero who fought with tooth and nail to save the galaxy he or she became a mindless drone that just gave up to illogical nonsense to make a suicide with really no pay off

And The quarians have a hard time survivng as it is why do you think that they have the young ones go on a pilgrimage to bring resourceful things back to the flotila because they're resources are not that fast and the civilian
ships and most of the important rescources are being used to secure rannoch so once again that tells me that because the relays are destroyed they won't be able to get important rescources to the flotilla to help them out or the turians

At best the quarians and geth will live the longest out of all the races trapt in our hurt solar system but whos to say that old ways or at least when the quarians start begining to run low on food and rescources try to attack to geth to attempt to gain more or use their advanced tech in hope of trying to escape our solar system in the end it still goes back to how nobody reallys wins and how the catalyst and the reapers have the last laugh

You know what I really saw at the ending the death of the human spirit that is what I saw instead of never giving up and stand our ground or no matter how hard you get hit it isn't about how hard you hit but how hard you get hit and keep on moving how much you can take and keep pushing forward I saw the death of human spirit shepard giving up and seeing the powerful human spirit destroyed that is what I saw

And No I don't think this is a good lesson to either the younger audience or for the older adults because it is pretty much saying you can give 110% percent but no matter what you do in the end you will still fail

NO THAT IS NOT A GOOD LESSON

really how people can accept the way the ending is it almost makes me think that indoctrination is real and that either bioware or ea must've been really good at mind control or powerful subliminial messages within the game

And No to someones question if I ever have children I wouldn't teach them to give up I would tell them that anything is possiable if you put your mind to it and it isn't about just falling down it is about getting up and going forward that is what I would teach my children

[3DandBeyond]

@AmstradHero (and all others),
There's so much here that's good, wish I could quote you all. Great posts and points.

I take exception, as do you with the point the Destroy option gives you some kind of glorious victory. I agree, there's no way to possibly extrapolate that Destroy means EDI survives, but that (she) isn't the only thing that makes it less than a victory, of course. She is one obvious point here. You have only to look at EDI and what is lost in choosing that option. She evolved, independently of outside intervention. She became a feeling being. You can assert that her feelings aren't true since there are based on logical statements, 1s and 0s, but she wanted to feel things and just in wanting something, she is experiencing feeling. A glorious victory is just that-overcoming all and succeeding. That doesn't mean a qualified success, it's the big success, puppies, ponies, and all and that ain't the destroy option. No glorious victory can be had with any of these choices. And, I'm not even touching on the total absurdity of the choices or the fact this insane kid is handing them out like lolipops-different flavors, yum! Destroy = EDI dies, the Geth die, there's no equivocating here. You cannot say it's possible they didn't. The reapers are far more near to being synthesized beings (at least husks, banshees, brutes, and their buds are) than EDI and the Geth, and we tend to believe they'd die. But even the reaper ships seem to have some organic components and they'd die. I'd have far more belief that they might not die than that EDI would live. But, I have no context to assert that. Nothing in the game points to that as a probability.

In the Arrival, Shepard was also pressed for time, but Shepard took more time in deciding the fate of 300k Batarians (that s/he doesn't much care for) and so would at least raise an eyebrow when deciding to wipe out sentient beings that s/he had actively cared for, helped. But, in order for me to believe that time and urgency is a factor then I should feel a sense of urgency. I feel way more rushed when trying to get a meal on a plate before it cools down too much.

I also fully support AmstraHero's statement regarding what we can and cannot state as meaning or as a part of the ending. To put it simply, if it's not in the game and can't be logically assumed from things that are known in real life, then it just can't be used as an argument to support the ending. You can imagine what you want, but it is an opinion.

I can envision the little kid being the manifestation of Keeper 20. Maybe he's been controlling everything, never got re-purposed by the Protheans. But that does not make it so. And since there are an awful lot of people out there with their own take on what crazed thing it was all supposed to mean, then there are likely thousands of possible endings. So, taken this way I could also support Casey Hudson's statement that no 2 endings will be the same for players. He's right, what genius! They aren't the same because we had to make them up.

[Voodoo-j]

Before the choices even come up.. the Protheans defeated the synthetics of their time, it's stated in the ME wiki timeline. (Javik also stated this)

The catalyst is contradicting itself, therefore nothing it states can be believed.

[daveyeisley]

Well, I remember Javik's quote along the lines of "We were turning the tide, and then the Reapers came. It was then we realized machines had already surpassed us in ways we could never imagine."

Paraphrased, but pretty close I am sure. I don't think the Protheans ever actually 'won', but there were definitely 'winning'. Much like the Quarian's were beating the Geth before that iteration of the Devil's Bargain.

I still agree, and said as much in my analysis the the Catalyst's logic and solution. He may believe what he says, but he is obviously incorrect.

[cyrslash1974]

Yep, peace between Quarians and Geths is a hope that war between Synthetics / Organics is not a fatality and can be avoided. But actually this peace is only for improve war assets level. No impact on the ending. We can't defy Catalyst's logic. Artistic vision has to be in accordance with the story / decisions of Shepard during the games. It is not the case.

This illogical end ruins the franchise and the replayability. I dont think that EC-DLC will change anything, but I stupidly hope...

[daveyeisley]

Admiral Koris: "Don't bother. Admitting we were wrong would undercut the justification for this [Artistic Vision]."

Modifié par daveyeisley, 14 mai 2012 - 02:06 .

[3DandBeyond]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

Yep, peace between Quarians and Geths is a hope that war between Synthetics / Organics is not a fatality and can be avoided. But actually this peace is only for improve war assets level. No impact on the ending. We can't defy Catalyst's logic. Artistic vision has to be in accordance with the story / decisions of Shepard during the games. It is not the case.

This illogical end ruins the franchise and the replayability. I dont think that EC-DLC will change anything, but I stupidly hope...

Hope is never stupid.  Those who betray or subvert that hope are.  Keep in mind that what you are hoping for is something that actually salvages a universe in a game.  It is something that I think we all hope will make it better and encourage us to play more, buy more.

ME, the series of games is something I've waited to play for around 30 years (more actually).  It was never perfect, but you can ignore minor imperfections-the games are that good.  The ending betrays all that came before.  You can easily make a list of things that were a given in the game, because of what you were told or what any certain character did, especially what Shepard did.  Choices you made indicated that certain things were canon to the game, but the ending takes everything you thought you knew and says, screw you. 

You thought you fought the reapers-started out fighting Saren, who was an agent of Sovereign, Reaper incarnate.  Then, you fought the Collectors, who were agents of Harbinger and the reapers.  Then, you fought against Cerberus and TIM, agents of the reapers.  And in the end when you want to stop fighting these go-betweens and head straight for the evil that haunts you, you get another go-between.  But, he isn't an agent of the reapers, he is Reaper baby daddy.

You thought you knew Shepard.  Hell, you were Shepard.  Decisions s/he made were the ones you actually decided upon.  But, still and all, whether all Paragon or all Renegade or any shade of purple in between, your Shepard had a character that said, "there are just some things I will not do-well, at least without a fight."  The ending says you didn't know Shepard, which means you didn't even know yourself because apparently you are a gutless, spineless wonder.

You thought you were playing an awesome, pretty straightforward story, that sometimes suspended or twisted reality a bit.  You thought that maybe Shepard would die, everyone kept pointing to that, but you also hoped that things you did might mean you'd have a chance to create that happy, bubbly ending.  You could always decide to not go for the happy, bubbly one (and let others choose to have it), but get one awesome, well-played out end where Shepard sacrifices all for the good of all organic and synthetic beings everywhere. 

And then, you'd get to see this awesomeness played out.  Your friends that are left would cheer and cry all at the same time.  Your Love Interest would honor you and mourn you.  The fleets would hold a memorial to you and speak in hushed terms of the human that taught them all something-the Shepard that created a quantum shift in what was commonly known to what is now incorporated into the consciousness of every living being.  Life would never be the same for Shepard having walked amongst them.  You thought you'd see the meaning of that sacrifice played out in how they rebuilt their lives and worlds.  The ending says, screw you, you don't need to see that.  Guess what happens next.  That's the intelligent way to end a game, so you must be stupid to think otherwise.

If you were so to choose the other, happy ending path, you might get all that and a truly sweet surprise of an ending where you reunited with your friends and Love Interest.  You were an idiot because you don't need to see that either.  Gosh, can't you just use your imaginations.  The game and ending seem to think that just because you paid for a game that had a real ending, doesn't mean you should get one.  So what if normal stories do have epilogs.  Dumb player, do they have to show you everything?

Everything you thought you knew was stupid.  Or at least that's what you are being told by this ending.  You at least thought it would make sense, but this is the dumbest idea you ever had.  It's highbrow art.  If you have to ask what it all means, then you aren't fit to play it.

No, you aren't stupid to hope, just as you were not stupid if you thought any of these other things.  The game itself promised a great ending with a wrap up.  It's only logical to think it would deliver.  You didn't come all this way to have people you cared about be dropped off into some abyss.  You came to see their stories play out. 

I'm like you and I hope they will fix this.  I don't expect it, but I will hope until I'm wrong.  And that's not stupid.

[Voodoo-j]

This also brings to mind... the synthetics that wage war against the organics, is it driven by the reapers? They certainly didn't help with the Geth war. Even with the reaper intervention peace was attained.

[Voodoo-j]

It's been so long I may need to go through it again to refresh, but the ending just gets all messed up with just a few facts that it contradicts. The main one, the reason the reapers were created, is invalid. Peace was attained.

(At least on my play through)

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 14 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[TheyCallMeMellowYellow]

"Yes, we are listening."

www.youtube.com/watch

[cyrslash1974]

3DAndBeyond : I agree, and nice message, thanks for that.

I also consider that Mass Effect is (or was) more than a games serie. An amazing universe. And Shepard was one of the greatest hero created, a kind of hero who deserved a better ending.

[Flubberlub]

Slow piano fade as
a) Shepard's body floats out into space after shooting at fuel cells, and is taken away by Citadel explosion
Shepard kneels before the control terminal, accepting his fate, shedding a single tear, and then grabbing the conduits, and screaming in pain
c) Shepard throws his gun on the floor, humbles to beam, reaches his hand into beam and tumbles into pit, spinning as he falls.
Then for all it plays a conclusive funeral for collective deaths and special commemoration for Shepard and any crew members that died throughout the series.
d) We get an ending where we disagree with this new "star child" and fight to the death with the Reapers and the Normandy picks up an unconscious Shepard whilst the battle rages on. New funeral scene for all those lost. Depending on EMS Shepard is either in last coffin, giving a eulogy, or sat in a wheelchair at the front of the service with LI next to him shedding a tear. Final scenes and awesome conclusion then ensue.

[Flubberlub]

Also, give us more meaning to our decisions
And to solve the crew members on Earth then on Normandy fiasco, have Shepard tell them "I have to do this" so that they don't have to die and then being picked up by a shuttle which takes them to the Normandy, driven by an alive Cortez and all of them surviving or being driven by another pilot and not surviving, being hit by a Reaper beam.
Or cut the Normandy scene and see them doing their bit as ground forces, and not just some of them, all of them.

[Flubberlub]

And those two were only created on your premise that you are not taking away, just adding... Otherwise give us what we have all wanted from the start, all of us, with huge expanding ending options.

[Redbelle]

Blue Liara wrote...

Just remembered something Samara said to shepard when they were discussing the Ardat yakshi.

Shepard asked why they can't cure the genetic defect Samara responds,

"we are an advanced race but WE DON'T HAVE MAGIC"

Just another illustration of how much Bioware broke the Narrative coherence with the Space Magic ending.

Begs the question though. If the Asari cannot procreate with other species on the homeworld, will there be a spike in Ardat Yakshi as pureborn births increase?

Ok there might be a few non Asari around, but the point stands.

[Redbelle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

I don't think flaws are ok, at least not in this amount, and so I am too waiting for the DLC.
But I also think that Bioware have the right to end their Game the way they wanted, and I think that imagine the worst possible outcome after the endings now, will most probably lead to even more disappointment after the DLC.

Bioware has every right to end the game as they want.  They also have every right to totally ignore the vast numbers of fans that have bought everything possible related to ME, and other Bioware games.  They have every right to never again see any money from these people who won't go to any ME movie, won't buy anymore Bioware products, and so on.

See, the game isn't only a story with a bad ending.  It's a product that is supposed to make money.  I might like making fish flavored cookies with chocolate chips, but if I want to sell them, I better make sure a lot of other people do too.

On the topic of money I'd recommend reading this from the buisiness times

http://www.ibtimes.c...g-dlc-ashes.htm

Not to poke at BW, I believe in paying for good games. But the above discussed marketing strategy for getting an extra $20........ (I'll work out what that is in Euro's later), strikes me as being insidious.

Companies have to understand that money will flow from their customers if they have the customers confidence. Inspiring confidence in their product will result in future sales for the franchise. Lately the confidence in BW has taken a hit. As a result I won't be pre-ordering the next BW game till it's beta tested by other gamers.......... I'll probably still buy it if it's ME......... but BW will lose the on day release charge for the game.

Or maybe not, maybe the DLC beyond the ECDLC will still pull a rabbit out the hat. With all the DLC from the other ME's I doubt the ECDLC will be the last for ME3.

But BW.......... don't pull most of your writers from the script treatment again. It's just not worth it.

[Arundel Vandraman]

The 'Artistic Vision' was really poor. No shame in facing that and radically re-making the ending. Take a leaf from the Witcher's developers. Lots of really really constructive feedback in this thread. Please do listen!

[Archonsg]

LiarasShield wrote...

You know what I really saw at the ending the death of the human spirit that is what I saw instead of never giving up and stand our ground or no matter how hard you get hit it isn't about how hard you hit but how hard you get hit and keep on moving how much you can take and keep pushing forward I saw the death of human spirit shepard giving up and seeing the powerful human spirit destroyed that is what I saw

And No I don't think this is a good lesson to either the younger audience or for the older adults because it is pretty much saying you can give 110% percent but no matter what you do in the end you will still fail

NO THAT IS NOT A GOOD LESSON

I wonder why not many see as you do, and why this too, to me as well, at the end, made what Shepard did, not a sacrifice but suicide at the behest of the SC, accepting arbitary death.

I am sorry that Bioware thinks this is the artistic vision they want to stand behind.
That we see Shepard beaten down, the fight taken out of him, then to see him spiritually broken and mindlessly accepting three "solutions" that every one of us know, the Shepard we know would never have accepted, is just wrong.

Modifié par Archonsg, 14 mai 2012 - 05:54 .

[LiarasShield]

My guess is that their are secret subliminal messages in the ending that has indoctrinated some of the audience to believe that this was a heroic sacrifice instead of a mindless suicide with no pay off and terrible cliff hanger not knowing wether all the races survive or they all die in our solar system

[LiarasShield]

At least in god of war the cliff hanger was acceptable we didn't need to really know if kratos lived or not but he got revenge for his family and destroyed the gods that cursed his fate but this cliff hanger is way too damn big and way to off putting it feels like a loss or we didn't do enough kind of ending no matter what different color choice you pick

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...


On the topic of money I'd recommend reading this from the buisiness times

http://www.ibtimes.c...g-dlc-ashes.htm

Not to poke at BW, I believe in paying for good games. But the above discussed marketing strategy for getting an extra $20........ (I'll work out what that is in Euro's later), strikes me as being insidious.

Companies have to understand that money will flow from their customers if they have the customers confidence. Inspiring confidence in their product will result in future sales for the franchise. Lately the confidence in BW has taken a hit. As a result I won't be pre-ordering the next BW game till it's beta tested by other gamers.......... I'll probably still buy it if it's ME......... but BW will lose the on day release charge for the game.

Or maybe not, maybe the DLC beyond the ECDLC will still pull a rabbit out the hat. With all the DLC from the other ME's I doubt the ECDLC will be the last for ME3.

But BW.......... don't pull most of your writers from the script treatment again. It's just not worth it.

I think had the ending not stunk so badly, people might have gotten over the release day DLC, but there are many that might not have.  This started fans paying attention to what was happening.  The CEO's comments about microtransactions furthered fans understanding of greed for greed's sake.

But all of this fan abuse (and make no mistake it is fan abuse), is heightened and highlighted by the fact they gave us a dumb ending that no reasonable person could say is complete (even those that post here that disagree with much of what we say, acknowledge the ending is at best flawed).  The From Ashes DLC makes fans think that they created such a stupid ending in order to bilk us for more DLC money, in order to get the ending they should have released.  There is much that points to it.

I think they got caught red-handed.  I'm sorry, but I do.  I think their statements once this became a real enflamed issue about artistic vision and all, are well, excuses.  You see, I give them more credit than they want to take themselves.  I don't think they are stupid, moronic, or ignorant of just how bad an ending this is.  I think it was calculated.  At least a part of me thinks this.  It backfired, badly.

What leads me to this conclusion is the From Ashes DLC-it's pretty important to the story and was initially supposed to be a part of the game, but then last minute they decided it would be DLC.  They actually tested the waters here with the Shadow Broker DLC for ME2.  That was important to the game, if only due to the character that may have been your Love Interest in ME1.   But, there were real pluses to it as well-mining maps, videos-Aethyta's, in particular and so on.  And again they had originally planned for Liara to be a more central character in ME2, but she was in DLC as what appears to be an afterthought, but something almost required for the game.

Micro transactions sealed the deal for me-they (EA) are using pretty much the same strategy for all games.  The packs for MP are calculated to tease you into buying and since MP is truly a requirement for the game, there's way better odds that you will buy a pack at least once.  So, it isn't $80.  It's all this other stuff they want to get you to buy, but whereas it used to be something games didn't need in order to finish, they are purposely making this necessary for the game.  I'd much rather they charged more for the game initially.  At least it's honest and not insulting.  But instead they go and give you, yeah give you the Resurgence maps for free.  Why?  Because they intend to make way more money off of people buying the upgrade packs than they ever would from the one time DLC fee.  That's why the online play is so important to them, it's very lucrative.