23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

SarKter wrote...

http://cdn.memegener...0x/16263808.jpg

This, I believe, clearly describes what was the 'starchild' intention when creating the reapers.

The ending could've been so great, but instead we got this... this... bad piece of script. The game should've ended after Anderson's death.

Yes, it's fundamentally what is soooo wrong with the star kid.  You might get past everything else it says because it could believe synthetics will always rise up to kill organics in some twisted insane way, but can't get beyond the idea that to keep something from being destroyed you must destroy it.

I don't want my laptop to be destroyed so I think I must smash it so it won't be destroyed.  Yeah, that makes sense.

I will take exception with the idea the game should've ended with Anderson-I've seen this said a lot.  But I don't agree.  That still gives no context as to what happened and I don't like movies that just stop and don't tell you what happened.  I certainly don't want games to do this.  I loved the Anderson scene, but it is not a natural ending to the game.  I want to see victory (or even defeat).  I want to see people begin to rebuild (or face the certain horror that awaits them).  I want to know whether or not my friends and LI lived.  I also do want options for Shepard to survive or die, and to see that victory or face the oncoming overwhelming defeat.  I basically have just always wanted the starkid scene excised from the game and an ending that fits put in its place.

I wanted to see and help fight the reapers-maybe the Catalyst took down their shields and we all do battle.  I wanted to see war assets in action.  I wanted to fight again with my teammates.  I wanted to face the real foe, the reapers, the nasties, the boogey man and not some stupid contrived glow boy.  I still can't see how such a totally irrelevant character could be inserted at the last minute and be meant to have some importance to the game. 

But, I don't want the game ending with Anderson.  I want a true ending.  I know I'm hoping and wanting and wishing for something that probably won't happen, but oh well...

[daveyeisley]

SarKter wrote...

http://cdn.memegener...0x/16263808.jpg

This, I believe, clearly describes what was the 'starchild' intention when creating the reapers.

The ending could've been so great, but instead we got this... this... bad piece of script. The game should've ended after Anderson's death.

Careful with that. I admit its funny. Its just that as close as it comes to being accurate, it isnt quite accurate.

The difference comes down to the fact that mass-murder bordering on genocide is not the same as the extinction of all organic life. The two are very close in the level of abhorrence and deplorability they convey, but they are, strictly speaking, quite different. It may also be important to point out the Catalyst is obviously not concerned with how abhorrent either one is.

Its just that the Catalyst seems to assign some basic (but apparently minor) value to organic life in a generic sense, but it cares absolutely nothing for any specific iteration or particular speciate expression of organic life. Organic life, to the Catalyst, is a faceless concept, all but devoid of meaning. It is just in need of protection from itself.

The reasoning behind the premise, assumptions, and conclusions that lead to its solution are just essentially intellectually bankrupt, and this leads to the very real problem that the whole premise of the trilogy is based off the Catalyst's solution. It undermines the whole story.

Mordin: "Problematic!"

Modifié par daveyeisley, 15 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[daveyeisley]

On a note more related to the second part of Mr. Priestly's OP - another great moment in the game that I truly loved:

Mordin: "Thresher Maw getting closer!"
Wrex: "Tell me something I DON'T Know!"
Mordin: "Metal in truck an excellent iron supplement for maw's diet!"

I mean.... c'mon, total LOLZ.

Also:

Shepard: "There's a reaper in my way, Wrex!!!"
Wrex: "Yeah, I know... you get all the fun..."

Modifié par daveyeisley, 15 mai 2012 - 02:25 .

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

thompsonman wrote...

THANK YOU to the MASS EFFECT team!!! just finished the me3 campaign for the first time. i heard many complaints about the ending but i was very impressed and satisfied. IT WAS AMAZING. i really cant believe all the bad words said about it. imagine what i would of missed out on if i bought Lost Planet instead of Mass Effect1 that day in the store. thanks again bioware

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really want someone that thought it was amazing to explain what was amazing about it.

Was it the idea that the created will always rebel against the creators and destroy them so the star kid must destroy advanced organics to keep synthetics from destroying advanced organics?

Or was it the part where the heroic, always challenging and resistant Shepard (you know the one that didn't just accept explanations but asked questions and fought and things like that), just accepts the star kid's "solution"?

Or was it the part just after the beam hit Shepard where someone orders a retreat-when there's nowhere to retreat to?

Or, was it the part where Shepard chooses Destroy which means the Geth and EDI will be vaporized, when your Shepard may have united the Geth and Quarian (see created/creator thing) and may have taught EDI a bit about love?

Or, was it the part where Shepard simply believes the star kid when the star kid all along has been the evil puppet master behind the reapers-meaning he is the big nasty in the game?

Or, was it the part where Joker simply swooped in super quickly and scooped up teammates that may have been fighting with Shepard when Shepard got hit by the beam and then ran away (you know because your teammates would leave and Joker would think there's actually some place to run to to hide from reapers)?

Or, was it the part where your teammates and Joker and your Love Interest, who all turned and ran away somehow, ended up on some jungle planet?

Or, was it the charcoal encrusted Shepard chest that gasped at the end (*see below) that appears to be laying in debris in London (magical space fall and planetary re-entry)?

*Referencing above-Was it that gasping chest that you can only get if you have a high enough EMS score based upon multiplayer play (promised not to be needed for the game) that you can only get if you choose the "correct" option from A, B, or C (also promised not to be in the game)?

Or, was it the lack of meaningful difference amongst the endings you could get whether you worked really hard to acquire assets in the game or just sat on your assets and did nothing?  Keep in mind the basic differences are whether you get all 3 choices, or whether Earth gets vaporized in one and whether Shepard gasps in another.

Or, was it the blue screen that popped up after the credits that said to get ready and buy some DLC?

Or, was it the Stargazer scene, ambiguous as it is, which features the greatest misuse of a truly heroic figure's voice (Buzz Aldrin) in any video game ever?

Or, was it the lack of story cohesion where you begin these games racing to fight against a super evil, larger than life foe that is the stuff of nightmares-you know the one that turns humans and others into organic goo-only to suddenly be thrown into slow motion, non-action, and to face a glob of super silly light in the form of a kid?  A star kid that you had no idea existed, but are somehow in the last few minutes of the game, supposed to believe, to hate, to love, to like, to follow, or what?  Shepard would never believe and certainly would never follow anything this glow boy says.

Or, was it that all that your Shepard and friends may have sacrificed for, end up being basically meaningless?  What did Mordin die for?  Legion?  Thane?

Or, was it the lack of any of these friends fighting alongside you at the end and the lack of any real fun at seeing your war assets in use?  Some people actually thought it might be awesome to see Asari warriors really fight, Krogans on dino back, Jack and her biotic kids, but some people apparently didn't care.

I just want to know what was awesome and amazing about it-was it the generic scene of some unknown military guys waving their guns in the air?  I personally wanted to see Garrus cheer or Grunt.  I wanted to see Vega jump for joy and I feel less fraternal feeling for Vega than many of my other friends. 

The ending to me was neither action-packed nor was it emotionally engaging.  It was empty.  And it didn't leave me cheering or feeling like I'd accomplished anything.  It left me feeling empty.

See the funny thing is is that people who say the ending is great or amazing can't give any real true decent reasons for why it's great and for a series like mass effect about choices and decisions and consequences of said decision the ending is just as important as the journey and is suppose to make sense and be meaningful not fall apart at the last min

But yeah Most ending lovers can only say it is great but can't really give decent reasons for why it is great but those of us who loath the ending can give very decent valid reasons for why we hate the ending why it doesn't make sense and why it does not feel like a victory

Shepard giving into the flawed logic that organics must be destroyed by synthetics so that organics won't make synthetics that will destroy them I'm sorry this once again makes little to no sense

And yes joker leaving with loyal crew when joker saved shepard and the others on the collector base could barely abandon the normandy at the begining of mass effect 2 and shepard had to pull his ass out of the cockpit or when joker played as a distraction during grissom academy giving shepard time to save jack and her kids or the biotic children from grissom academy and many other scenarios that paint the pure clear picture that joker would never abandon shepard or his or her squad let alone the entire fleet fighting against the reapers to save the galaxy no I'm sorry can't accept that joker would do a complete 360 and say **** you to the galaxy and have us all potentially be annhilated by the reapers

Let alone magically picking up your squad who would fight with you to the end and followed you as you charged towards the beam up to the citadel and getting hit by harbingers beam I'm sorry either they're dead or extremely wounded but they wouldn't be a ok without a scratch one nor would they just let joker take off without a care in the world leyt alone joker himself doing so

And once again shepard has always fought for another way has always refused to give in even in the face of death or impossiable odds so all of sudden shepard just lays down and die without fighting back or looking for another way or making the reapers have to give them all to kill him or her I'm sorry shepard became a zombie in the final minutes no longer was shepard this powerful noble hero who fought with tooth and nail to save the galaxy he or she became a mindless drone that just gave up to illogical nonsense to make a suicide with really no pay off

And The quarians have a hard time survivng as it is why do you think that they have the young ones go on a pilgrimage to bring resourceful things back to the flotila because they're resources are not that fast and the civilian
ships and most of the important rescources are being used to secure rannoch so once again that tells me that because the relays are destroyed they won't be able to get important rescources to the flotilla to help them out or the turians

At best the quarians and geth will live the longest out of all the races trapt in our hurt solar system but whos to say that old ways or at least when the quarians start begining to run low on food and rescources try to attack to geth to attempt to gain more or use their advanced tech in hope of trying to escape our solar system in the end it still goes back to how nobody reallys wins and how the catalyst and the reapers have the last laugh

You know what I really saw at the ending the death of the human spirit that is what I saw instead of never giving up and stand our ground or no matter how hard you get hit it isn't about how hard you hit but how hard you get hit and keep on moving how much you can take and keep pushing forward I saw the death of human spirit shepard giving up and seeing the powerful human spirit destroyed that is what I saw

And No I don't think this is a good lesson to either the younger audience or for the older adults because it is pretty much saying you can give 110% percent but no matter what you do in the end you will still fail

NO THAT IS NOT A GOOD LESSON

really how people can accept the way the ending is it almost makes me think that indoctrination is real and that either bioware or ea must've been really good at mind control or powerful subliminial messages within the game

Seriously random people saying the ending is fine without decent reasons again is becoming a contrivance espically when it looks like they only played the final game instead of the previous one

More then anything I'm just ticked off that their isn't at least a possiability of a victory ending like in the previous mass effects that and well shepard commiting a suicide and giving up to false logic instead of remaining true to his or her principles

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

SarKter wrote...

http://cdn.memegener...0x/16263808.jpg

This, I believe, clearly describes what was the 'starchild' intention when creating the reapers.

The ending could've been so great, but instead we got this... this... bad piece of script. The game should've ended after Anderson's death.

Yes, it's fundamentally what is soooo wrong with the star kid.  You might get past everything else it says because it could believe synthetics will always rise up to kill organics in some twisted insane way, but can't get beyond the idea that to keep something from being destroyed you must destroy it.

I don't want my laptop to be destroyed so I think I must smash it so it won't be destroyed.  Yeah, that makes sense.

I will take exception with the idea the game should've ended with Anderson-I've seen this said a lot.  But I don't agree.  That still gives no context as to what happened and I don't like movies that just stop and don't tell you what happened.  I certainly don't want games to do this.  I loved the Anderson scene, but it is not a natural ending to the game.  I want to see victory (or even defeat).  I want to see people begin to rebuild (or face the certain horror that awaits them).  I want to know whether or not my friends and LI lived.  I also do want options for Shepard to survive or die, and to see that victory or face the oncoming overwhelming defeat.  I basically have just always wanted the starkid scene excised from the game and an ending that fits put in its place.

I wanted to see and help fight the reapers-maybe the Catalyst took down their shields and we all do battle.  I wanted to see war assets in action.  I wanted to fight again with my teammates.  I wanted to face the real foe, the reapers, the nasties, the boogey man and not some stupid contrived glow boy.  I still can't see how such a totally irrelevant character could be inserted at the last minute and be meant to have some importance to the game. 

But, I don't want the game ending with Anderson.  I want a true ending.  I know I'm hoping and wanting and wishing for something that probably won't happen, but oh well...

I must respectfully disagree on the inevitability of Anderson’s death. I have spoken before about it. There act of Shepard shooting Anderson is abhorrent to me. I can’t conceive my Shepard losing control of his actions and shooting his friend and mentor. That was a cheap way to getting Anderson killed. I’m not saying that Anderson’s death must not have been a possibility, but my Shepard should’ve had the ability/option of, depending on paragon/renegade/EMS, to defend him or interrupt it.
 
Sort of like in DXHR when Adam Jensen can choose to save Malik when they crash in Hensha.   


Recalling the point made earlier by Archonsg , our Shepard became a stranger during those last ten minutes.   

Modifié par Benchpress610, 15 mai 2012 - 03:25 .

[ForumHelper]

It's just.. I can't understand why BioWare decided to finish the 3rd game with such an ending. I know, "Yo dawg" example is not the best one, but it certainly confirms there is something wrong with the plot of ME3.

IT seems to be the only way they could get away with what they did. The "One more story" theme after credits makes me wonder - maybe Shepard's story is still to be finished, either by a DLC(a big one, with answers to our questions) or another game? It is EA after all.

This vid, watch it NOW:

Modifié par SarKter, 15 mai 2012 - 03:27 .

[Benchpress610]

Sorry, double post

Modifié par Benchpress610, 15 mai 2012 - 03:24 .

[LiarasShield]

I'm probably going to be getting into a battle with chris priestly pretty soon I've already called him out on how he has not responded to this thread or anyone else from the team for that matter

[LiarasShield]

I've commented on the shoes thread since he obviously won't come to this one

[daveyeisley]

While it may not be true, the perception of this thread simply being a 'hate dump' so the BW folks can ignore it does certainly seem valid at current. I wouldnt need responses on a regular basis, but still... something every so often, maybe when a good opportunity comes up?

Though, my fear then would be the response boiling down to "we understand, but disagree." So if thats what it would be, part of me (not all) would prefer silence... heh.

Modifié par daveyeisley, 15 mai 2012 - 03:49 .

[Benchpress610]

daveyeisley wrote...

While it may not be true, the perception of this thread simply being a 'hate dump' so the BW folks can ignore it does certainly seem valid at current. I wouldnt need responses on a regular basis, but still... something every so often, maybe when a good opportunity comes up?

Though, my fear then would be the response boiling down to "we understand, but disagree." So if thats what it would be, part of me (not all) would prefer silence... heh.

I know perception is reality, but I wouldn’t call this a “hate dump”. While from time to time there have been some hateful comments in this thread, must of them come from trolls and pro-enders. Must of us have provided sound and constructive criticism, not hate at all.
 
Having said that, any exchange with the moderators should be respectful. We don’t want this thread locked.  

[LiarasShield]

actually I do I'd rather them lock this thread then to pretend to listen or only ignore us I'm sorry I don't think that is ok

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...


I must respectfully disagree on the inevitability of Anderson’s death. I have spoken before about it. There act of Shepard shooting Anderson is abhorrent to me. I can’t conceive my Shepard losing control of his actions and shooting his friend and mentor. That was a cheap way to getting Anderson killed. I’m not saying that Anderson’s death must not have been a possibility, but my Shepard should’ve had the ability/option of, depending on paragon/renegade/EMS, to defend him or interrupt it.
 
Sort of like in DXHR when Adam Jensen can choose to save Malik when they crash in Hensha.   


Recalling the point made earlier by Archonsg , our Shepard became a stranger during those last ten minutes.   

I agree with this, maybe didn't make it clear.  Part of me not wanting the game to end at Anderson dying is Anderson shouldn't be dying.  Shepard would shoot him/herself first, has a much more powerful mind (goes back to many things that played out in the game) than TIM and TIM can possibly overcome indoctrination long enough to shoot himself. 

If we accept for this argument that Shepard was not indoctrinated, but somehow TIM is using some other form of control (I do not recall this being a part of the games, but someone insisted it is), I do believe Shepard strong enough to resist this.  But noooooooooo, just like every other stupid thing puppet Shepard does in the end, Shepard just shoots him.  Ridiculous and stupid.  But, it's also plain nasty to do that to the hero of the game, of 3 games.  Way to go.  And, Superman strangles Lois Lane, Luke Skywalker stabs Obi Wan, Batman smothers Alfred, and so on.  Yes, that's what I want to see in a hero-kill your mentor, your father figure, all to perpetuate this created destroying the creator thing, is that it?

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...

While it may not be true, the perception of this thread simply being a 'hate dump' so the BW folks can ignore it does certainly seem valid at current. I wouldnt need responses on a regular basis, but still... something every so often, maybe when a good opportunity comes up?

Though, my fear then would be the response boiling down to "we understand, but disagree." So if thats what it would be, part of me (not all) would prefer silence... heh.

I know perception is reality, but I wouldn’t call this a “hate dump”. While from time to time there have been some hateful comments in this thread, must of them come from trolls and pro-enders. Must of us have provided sound and constructive criticism, not hate at all.
 
Having said that, any exchange with the moderators should be respectful. We don’t want this thread locked.  

I don't see this as a hate dump.  A hate dump would be one where all that goes on is the trashing of things-game, companies, so on.  It may happen, sometimes does, but this is also a place to merely express thoughts on all this.

It's kind of like all those people that just call us haters.  Untrue.  In fact the opposite is the truth.  We love Mass Effect and I think when you love or like something so much and are disappointed (to say the least), then well it can look a lot like hatred.  I hate the ending, love the games.  This causes a huge conflict within me.  I want to play it all again.  I try to.  I want to experience it differently and can, to a point, but always there is looming this idea that my actions are futile so I don't get the same "high" from the games as I might.

I don't like what Bioware and/or EA did here.  I don't like the statements that they've come out with, that are dismissive and tantamount to insulting.  I am a fan.  I am like a good friend that has been tossed aside and so far, I am talking to myself about it, because my friend will not talk to me about what has happened.  I don't hate them.  I can't, because they've given me so much that is awesome.  I am extremely dismayed and disappointed in what they've done and I am confused.

Bethesda that frequently is the butt of jokes or disgust at the very least did see the error of what they did in Fallout 3 and they fixed it.  They did so because fans spoke up and they also saw it was a bad business decision.  This is what we tend to keep doing here.  Yes, Bioware and EA may have their fingers in their ears, but they may then totally misunderstand where the criticism is coming from.  It's coming from fans-fans.  That should mean something.

[Holger1405]

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

I've cut out irrelevant points of the discussion that were going around in circles.

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
This still renders organic life completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it gets exterminated the synthetic life created by organics, because the Reapers would kill it off anyway. [/quote]
What you are basically saying here is that the opportunity that new Organic life is evolving in any new cycle, isn't better than his completely extinction. Sorry, but that's a logic I don't get.
[/quote]
Okay. Let's say take a hypothetical here. I'm going about my ordinary life, then one day I'm killed. In an alternate universe, I'm not killed that day, but I'm killed the day after. What lasting significant meaning does that extra day have to anyone? Practically none. [/quote]

Sorry, but your analogy is not even close to precise.
It's not about one day, it's about Fifty thousand Years, and it's not about one life, it's about countless of life's.
Catalyst logic is clear, and it doesn't matter if his logic is sound, he beliefs his own logic. (btw, even when you think Catalyst logic is unsound, as I do, you can't proof that he is definitively wrong.)
That means without his interference, ALL Organic life would be gone.
Catalyst interferes and in any cycle new organic life is evolving.

So, what is the meaning of this?

Non interfering: Organics extinct. And that's it.
interfering: In any cycle, over Fifty thousand Years each, countless and countless of individuals can life a full life.  

Which action "renders organic life completely irrelevant." is imho not even open to debate.
      
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Basically the solution says that "organic life is worthless" (because it is always exterminated), but then insists that it must be protected from destruction. [/quote]
No it doesn't says that "organic life is worthless", even when you think that the Catalyst logic is unsound, as I do, you have to admit that, in his twisted logic, he tries to protect the overall existence of Organic life over his complete extinction. That, by all means, is nowhere near rendering "organic life completely irrelevant."
[/quote]
The Reapers are the solution. Sovereign says: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation; an accident." I don't know about you, but if I got called an "accident" I'd consider that being told I'm irrelevant. At best, the Catalyst makes Sovereign a pathetic, deluded and ignorant fool. Sovereign was at least a hundred times more interesting than the Catalyst, so I'd rather not have them undermine the power and mystique of the Reapers any more than they already have. I don't even give a toss about the Reapers anymore. They're just the plaything of some being of light. How hideously dull. [/quote]

Sovereign indeed renders Organic life as irrelevant, and that was part of the plot. Sovereign is a complete different character and his statements are unrelated to the endings as to the question if Catalyst "solution" renders organic live irrelevant.

If the Reapers become "dull" because they are the tools of Catalyst is a matter of opinion.    
        
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Plus, if it cares so much about preserving organic life (as the Reapers do in Reaper form, whatever that means), why does he quite happily offer you the option just to exterminate all those organic species in an instant? That's a pretty callous disregard for organic life. It just spent how many cycles "storing" organic life, but just because of one person, it's willing to eradicate them entirely. Again, that indicates to me that the Catalyst considers them worthless.

It gets even better when you consider what the Catalyst says about this option:"But it won't last". Meaning peace. It believes that destroy will lead to synthetics wiping out organics. It believes this, it also wipes out all preserved organic life up until this point, and somehow, the player is meant to accept that the Catalyst wants to preserve organic life. There's no logic in existence that can possibly argue that perspective. [/quote]

Again, the Catalyst stated: "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."
The Catalyst didn't offered this solution to you the Crucible did, and so the whole basis of your argument is inaccurate.   

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
You didn't quoted a important part of my last post:
The Catalyst stated: "the Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen." That, imho, means that this "new possibility's" are created by the Crucible not the Catalyst and so are not bound to the Catalyst logic.

This "new possibility's" are the choices given to the Player in the very end, so no, I don't think the endings are based on Catalyst's imho wrong logic.

I would even go one step further, and say that Catalyst logic has to be wrong, because when his logic would be sound, then the Reapers were a good "solution", and that, as a matter of fact, would indeed render the complete premise of the Mass Effect universe worthless.
[/quote]
Again, these aren't new possibilities. They can't be new possibilities. For one - they're part of the citadel, which has been built for many, many, many cycles. It suddenly created new devices in the short ride that Shepard took up the magic space elevator? That's preposterous.

technology aside, we know these aren't new solutions.
Destroy is what came before the Reapers existed.
Control is what we have now.
Synthesis is arguably the only "new" option - but theoretically the Reapers are supposedly already some organic/synthetic hybrid (but that opens up a whole new can of plothole worms), so that's not a new option either. [/quote]

You said in that other post that to "blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you" leads to >arguments< "disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays." Well, you are right.
The Game is telling you that this "possibilities" are new. You counter this, with an argument about the physical possibility to construct such devices. In a Science Fiction setting...
Just curies, if you think that this is "preposterous" how do you think over the part of the storyline as Cerberus was able to resurrect Shepard after she/he drops from the Orbit of a Planet to his ground?     

Furthermore, imho this, "possibilities" are new. (possibilities! to stress that out.)  "Synthesis" is obviously a new possibility, "Control" is new because the controller did change, and "Destruction" meaning the non existence of the Reapers, is a new possibility, (maybe not unique, but even that is not to proof) because they did exist for countless cycles.  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
I'm not sure you understood my point here. The issue is that the player is forced into a situation that they know as a character is non-sensical. They're forced to behave in a way that their character would not behave. It's like in Deus Ex Human Revolution, where Adam Jensen acts like a complete and utter moron in cutscenes even though you've gathered all the information that couldn't make the twists in the plot any clearer. I was practically yelling at my screen "Don't trust that woman, you stupid idiot, you've read at least a dozen emails that tell you exactly how rotten she is." Now, I did expect some railroading from that game. I sure as hell didn't expect it from Mass Effect, and most certainly not in the climax of the damn game. [/quote]

And I still disagree about the point that the Player is forced into a nonsensical situation.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
But why should it be impossible to build <mass relays> new ones?
Matriarch Aethyta already made this proposal, so it is most probably in the technical scope of the Asari, plus, by coincidences,   this fleets have a group of scientists, engineers, technicians and thieves, (Ok probably only one thief.) gathered together that just built a pretty big device of incredible complexity.

And btw these Fleets have one Mass Relay left, it called Citadel, and no it is not been destroyed, in none of the endings. Watch YouTube if you don't belief me.
[/quote]
Making the suggestion that they should research something is far from the same as doing it. Also, the Citadel isn't a Mass Relay. The reaper relay mentioned in ME1 is inactive and no one has a clue how to reactivate it. At best, you've got the exit end of the Prothean Conduit, which was only opened for a brief time in ME1 - we don't even know if anyone studied that further or figured out what they'd done. It was still wasn't anything like a proper Mass Relay, and you sure as heck can't "send" using it. [/quote]

You did change this part a bit, didn't you?   

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Making the suggestion that they should research something is far from the same as doing it[/quote]

True, still the Game clearly addressed this possibility and therefore it is not impossible.
 
[quote] Also, the Citadel isn't a Mass Relay. The reaper relay mentioned in ME1 is inactive and no one has a clue how to reactivate it. At best, you've got the exit end of the Prothean Conduit, which was only opened for a brief time in ME1 - we don't even know if anyone studied that further or figured out what they'd done. It was still wasn't anything like a proper Mass Relay, and you sure as heck can't "send" using it. [/quote]

So basically the Citadel IS a Mass Relay, but the Races don't know how to use it.  
Even if they don't find out how to use it, they would have at least a blueprint for a Mass Relay just as they had one for the Crucible.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Again, I think you misunderstood me. I'm stating that the outcome is very, very, bleak. Not to mention that mass genocide of all organic race that the Reapers ever harvested that Shepard potentially committed. Or become our new overlord. Or forced everyone to a "new genetic destiny". What a hero. [/quote]

The destruction of the Reapers is by no means a genocide on all the Races the Reapers ever harvested. This races are, by any standards, (of Organics) gone.

I agree on Synthesis as  bleak ending, but not on the other two. Regarding the enormous tread the Reapers meant, imho both outcomes provide a Victory.  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
As I said, my Shepard, my Squad, Joker (imho also Edi, but that is up to discussion) and the crew of the Normandy are alive. I destroyed the Reapers and saved Earth plus the rest of the Galaxy. This is imho not only a Victory, it is a Great Victory.
[/quote]
EDI isn't alive if you picked destroy. She's synthetic life. A true AI. If you're saying that she survived the destroy ending, then you're blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you. Once you start doing that, all bets are off because you're deliberately and wilfully ignoring the facts the game presents you in order to get the victory that you desire. At this point, your argument disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays. [/quote]
I said that this is open to debate, and this is strictly about EDI. I am more than capable to separate what may be wishful thinking from real facts.
Catalyst didn't mentioned her, and Joker looked not very depressed as he left the Normandy and, we are back to canon again... in this case the answer will come at the earliest with the DLC.
[/quote]
The Catalyst says that destroy will kill all synthetic life. EDI is synthetic life. She's painted as more advanced than the Geth. She has Reaper technology embedded in her. I don't see how this can be anything other than black and white. If BioWare handwave that away and keep EDI alive in the destroy, then sorry, that is surrendering artistic integrity. [/quote]

The only thing that they, maybe, would surrender is a little bit of logic, but Bioware stretched this logic, as any other Sci-Fi author, writher, creator, I know of, already. You do remember my  question about dropping Shepard?  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
but again, that's what many people have been saying about the ending for a long time.
[/quote]
You are not using this as a valid argument, do you?
[/quote]
Do I really strike you as the type of person to use common opinion as rationale for a logical and literary discussion?
[/quote]

No.

Edit: typo

Modifié par Holger1405, 16 mai 2012 - 12:51 .

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...


I must respectfully disagree on the inevitability of Anderson’s death. I have spoken before about it. There act of Shepard shooting Anderson is abhorrent to me. I can’t conceive my Shepard losing control of his actions and shooting his friend and mentor. That was a cheap way to getting Anderson killed. I’m not saying that Anderson’s death must not have been a possibility, but my Shepard should’ve had the ability/option of, depending on paragon/renegade/EMS, to defend him or interrupt it.
 
Sort of like in DXHR when Adam Jensen can choose to save Malik when they crash in Hensha.   


Recalling the point made earlier by Archonsg , our Shepard became a stranger during those last ten minutes.   

I agree with this, maybe didn't make it clear.  Part of me not wanting the game to end at Anderson dying is Anderson shouldn't be dying.  Shepard would shoot him/herself first, has a much more powerful mind (goes back to many things that played out in the game) than TIM and TIM can possibly overcome indoctrination long enough to shoot himself. 

If we accept for this argument that Shepard was not indoctrinated, but somehow TIM is using some other form of control (I do not recall this being a part of the games, but someone insisted it is), I do believe Shepard strong enough to resist this.  But noooooooooo, just like every other stupid thing puppet Shepard does in the end, Shepard just shoots him.  Ridiculous and stupid.  But, it's also plain nasty to do that to the hero of the game, of 3 games.  Way to go.  And, Superman strangles Lois Lane, Luke Skywalker stabs Obi Wan, Batman smothers Alfred, and so on.  Yes, that's what I want to see in a hero-kill your mentor, your father figure, all to perpetuate this created destroying the creator thing, is that it?

Agreed, this has been my sorest point and main gripe with the ending. Of course, there are many more, too many. But this was the point in the game when my Shepard was taken away from me and I went; WTF???? …then everything went downhill from there.
 
Sorry for the delay, for some reason my 4G connection today stinks. I’ve had to reboot my hotspot several times already.

[3DandBeyond]

@Holger1405,
I know you are having a discussion on various points, but a lot of it seems to hinge on organic life and all that-ok to be clear it is rather evident that the reapers, Sovereign included are not harvesting organic life merely for the purpose the star kid says (his warped idea of some noble purpose). They turn it into goo. Or they try to perform some warped experimentation on it to make reaper creatures.

As to you statement that the player isn't forced into some nonsensical situation, well with all due respect you are wrong.

Shepard is the player and vice versa, so we'll go with Shepard. Shepard's isn't forced, coerced, or controlled into anything, but the game gives no other option besides quitting it when forced with stupid choices and they are stupid.

Assuming you play as a paragon Shepard-I say this because it is a choice you can make, and you unite the Geth and Quarian and you care about getting EDI and Joker together. All of these are possible and the game must make allowances for your choices. Assuming all this, you will commit genocide if you pick Destroy. I have more angst over killing a spider than Shepard is allowed when Shepard is told s/he can pick Destroy and what it means.

Consider that Shepard cared about Legion-what does that mean? What determines what is life? Many will tell you the self-awareness, sentience is the factor. Legion sacrificed himself for the greater good. It meant something, but at the end it doesn't. This is the height of nonsense. If tomorrow my toaster started talking to me and told me it was there to help me and it stopped working, it would matter. Destroy is nonsense as presented.

Take Control as an option-every single person and being that has tried to control the reapers in the game has been shown to be a demi-god in their own minds at least. Or they are already under control of someone else. They didn't all start that way and may have had decent intent even, but they were all evil or made evil. Shepard never saw control as any kind of option, ever. Period. Even TIM when given the chance to insert a control chip in Shepard saw it as a non-option. Why? Because it might interfere with things. And the idea that Shepard after death controls the reapers is stupid-what does s/he become the new star kid or something? Nonsense as an option.

Synthesis has always been a stated purpose from the beginning of ME1-Sovereign said it, Saren said it. Others stated similar things and talked about it with horrified distaste. It ultimately destroys fundamentally what is unique about all life, including synthetics such as EDI and the Geth. Nonsense.

So, if all 3 choices are nonsense and I will maintain forever that they are since they are all predicated upon the one big bad super dooper flaw within the star kid, that famous fabulous circular logic and since none of them take into account the individuality of the races, nor the choices made previously within the game (see Geth/Quarian paragon option), the player as Shepard is indeed forced into a nonsensical situation. It's complete nonsense.

The point was also being made that once that beam hits Shepard it's as if Shepard is no longer the same character you have been playing. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe your Shepard would never question anything a crazy illogical star kid would say and just wander off to make a stupid choice. Maybe your Shepard was always weak-minded and would be easily controlled and made to shoot Anderson. Maybe your Shepard would never consider the star kid was lying or evil-remember the star kid told Shepard that he controlled the reapers and had directed them to carry out his solution and repeat the cycle over and over again. This means the kid has routinely ordered the reapers to kill trillions of advanced lifeforms. My Shepard would never just listen to him and say, "ok, what do you want me to do, buddy?" Especially after the kid said it couldn't basically get the crucible to work and needed Shepard to do that.

Ok for all we know the star kid could just be a manifestation that Harbinger created in order to look all innocent to Shepard. The fact that the hero of the galaxy never utters one word of protest is complete unadulterated nonsense and if you want to finish the game you are forced to go ahead with his choices. Why on Earth would I believe a thing he says?

As for the results of choosing Destroy, well that can be debated till the cows come home and sing the Phantom of the Opera. We have no context on which to base any intelligent conclusion, except...

We do have the doom and gloom of a destroyed mass relay in the Arrival. It's the only context we have in game for a destroyed mass relay.

We have the understanding as stated within the game that the reapers do not only destroy advanced organics, but the also do a kind of slash and burn to all the resources on the planets that they've harvested (and while we're at it what does harvesting sound like to you-to me, it's food). This means that all the thoughts of idyllic scenes of people getting together to feed the various fleets might just be pipe dreams. It's stated within the game, they do not leave stuff behind. They won't have had time to destroy everything, but perhaps enough to make life pretty grim. That is if the relays don't take care of everything.

And then of course players are also forced into the Joker/Jungle planet nonsense that's completely out of line with the story and Joker's and your teammate's characters. It's also patently impossible to believe that specific people could be there logistically. They were hit by the same beam Shepard was, some of them, and it would mean Joker knew ahead of time he needed to evacuate them by what shuttle or Normandy landing in London in front of Harbinger/Bob the reaper and he did it because he knew he had to beat the shockwave. Ok, I give up, it's completely logical, no nonsense here.

Shepard ceases to be Shepard-not the one I played.
Your teammates run away-not the ones I played
Joker has a premonition and gathers your LI and teammates up and runs away before the predictable shockwave hits-ok, in what game would this make sense?

But if that all still does make sense-let's again take one thing. Retreat. Shepard's hit by the beam and someone yells retreat. Retreat to where for what purpose? It's a suicide mission and this or death, nothing else. I will repeat this, it's like drowning in an ocean and deciding to swim to another spot because the drowning is better there. No retreat, a fight to the death. Or, someone would have to try to get to the beam to the Citadel. No other option here. But, as it plays out it's nonsense.

[jdecker]

Are they forcing me to play Multi-Player? You can not get a good ENDING unless you play MP? I don't like Multi-Player, too many young people who like to kick me off !! lmao !! So i can never get a GOOD ENDING??? NOT FARE!!! IDK? If there is a good ending out there?? lol!!

[BlueStorm83]

I'd like to express my complaints with the ending succinctly, and focus on the main problems:

First, and foremost, the Godchild, Starboy, Ancient AI, whatever you want to call the little ghosty kid: having played as a Shepard who always stuck to his guns and didn't compromise, and stood for what's right, I'd have never believed him.  When he said that Synthetics will always destroy Organics, I'd have raised two pieces of information.

First of all, he's a Synthetic, and he claims to be doing what he's doing to save Organics.  His own (deeply twisted and violent) actions are counter to his claims.  If that's not enough, second, the Geth and the Quarians have (for me) just become best friends and gone on a picnic on Rannoch.  Also, Joker's totally gettin' it on with a sexybot.

I'm also troubled that Shempard (That's what I call my Shepard,) didn't even ask him who he is, where he came from, etc. etc?  I've explored EVERY DIALOGUE CHOICE in three games.  Shempard is a walking codex, he's gotten so many explanations from everyone.  Now he just takes what this little cloudy-child says on face value?  No, sorry.

I'm also bothered with how it basically makes Shempard have been wrong for nearly the entirety of three games.  Saren (indoctrinated!) said that organic life's only hope was to join with the reapers (represented by the Synthesis ending.)  The Illusive Man said that we have to dominate the reapers (Control ending.)    We CAN destroy the Reapers, but since they know that everyone will pick that one, having invested YEARS of our lives in that pursuit, so they also throw in that it will destroy all other Synthetic life.  Doesn't make ANY sense to me, how can a machine eons older than current synthetic life know enough about it to wipe it all out without also killing off all technology everywhere?  So basically, having played as a Paragon, I'm now shoehorned into letting the bad guys win.

And that's the heart my problem: none of the endings feel even remotely like a victory.  In both of the "Reapers go away!" endings, I don't believe it.  I don't believe for even one second that the Control option is actually Shempard controlling the Reapers.  The only people who ever believed that before only believed it because the Reapers indoctrinated them, and made them believe it, so they could kill everyone, everywhere.  I don't believe in the Synthesis Ending either: That's what the reapers WANTED!  To grind everyone up into a paste and make a horiffic half-organic, half-synthetic monstrosity out of them.  That's how they make MORE REAPERS!  If I destroy the Reapers, the Geth die, EDI dies, maybe any Quarrians who volunteered to have their immune systems fixed by Geth Programs die, since the Geth are now in their suits and indeed even simulating mild viruses in their bodies.  No matter what I pick, the Mass Relays are blown to hell.  Most times, the Citadel is destroyed.  Everyone ON the citadel is probably already from before.

It feels like a defeat; no, worse than that, it feels like no matter what I pick, I let everyone down.

Don't mistake what I want here: I don't NECESSARILY want a 100% happy ending.  I would have actually cheered to see the final scene being everyone I'd fought so hard for escaping as Shempard took the Normandy and just RAMMED IT right down Harbinger's throat, blowing him, and my entire crew, to hell and back.  At least then the fight that I'd been fighting for actual YEARS would feel like it's won.

The Godchild MADE the reapers.  Picking any of the 3 just says, "Yup, you're in charge of everything, kid!"  Bull****.  If I were Shempard, I'd have looked at that kid, said, "You're wrong.  You're crazy.  And you need to die."  I'd have radioed Hackett, told him that the thing that created and indeed CONTROLLED the Reapers was at my current location on the citadel ring, and had him blow it up.  Maybe that would kill the reapers, maybe it would free them to their original mindsets, maybe it would just disorient them.  I don't know.  It could even make them MORE deadly, I suppose.  At the very least, we'd have killed this mother****er who was singularly responsible for countless TRILLIONS of deaths since the begining of time.  And then the free races of the Galaxy would either stand, fight, and win, or stand, fight, and die.  Either way, they would remain themselves, they would remain free, and they wouldn't be bound to any fate that some arrogant ****** decided, be it before the foundations of their civilizations, or even right then and there standing on the citadel.

That's just the major stuff.  I'll make a separate post for all the little nitpicks.

[3DandBeyond]

@BlueStorm83,
Excellent post and your last thought about having them attack the Citadel, yessir. I'd rather see that anyday when compared with the crap we get to choose from. And I'm one of those that would like the possibility of a happy ending. But, after playing the game and trying out the so-called different endings, I wanted some way out-the only way out was to just quit the game.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 mai 2012 - 06:33 .

[Benchpress610]

jdecker wrote...

Are they forcing me to play Multi-Player? You can not get a good ENDING unless you play MP? I don't like Multi-Player, too many young people who like to kick me off !! lmao !! So i can never get a GOOD ENDING??? NOT FARE!!! IDK? If there is a good ending out there?? lol!!

Yeah...what a way to keep their promise that MP is was not required to achieve the optimal ending. There is not optomal ending, but that's another discussion.

I didn't like MP at first, but after a few rounds it turned out to be fun. If you play on PC, we can team up I would'n allow anyone to kick you off

[sdinc009]

Yet another article written by Forbes about the ending

http://www.forbes.co...stic-integrity/

[3DandBeyond]

Here's my favorite thread...
Help design ME sneakers.

http://social.biowar...8665/6#12067737

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[JediMike2372]

I have to agree with 3DandBeyond. From everything that has gone on in the game(s), the reactions of Shepard and crew at the end are so OOC that it cannot be quantified. I mean here is Shepard racing all over the galaxy doing his/her thing and then gets to the Citadel and this star-child thing gives and explanation and choices and Shepard just says nothing. My Shepard wouldn't do that. My Shepard would have argued till the air ran out in the Citadel. I mean really. For games that are supposed to be choice driven, we had none at the end. That includes the 3 ridiculous ones we are forced to endure. Artistic vision? No way. Laziness and a want for money by EA. Up until the beam out to the Citadel, I was totally buying it. Then the encounter with TIM. I can buy that maybe TIM could do something like that, the problem is that I don't think that Shepard would succumb that fast. Especially if TIM was indoctrinated. And if he was, how is he able to shoot himself when no one else could? Sloppy. I dunno. I would have gladly waited longer if it brought an ending that actually made sense and was more interactive and let me use my Paragon/Renegade to either take control or convince the star-child to abandon its destruction.

[Kyda]

JediMike2372 wrote...
Especially if TIM was indoctrinated. And if he was, how is he able to shoot himself when no one else could? Sloppy. I dunno.

Saren in ME1 does the same thing if you convince him by talking... what in my opinion was sloppy was the fact that TIM could control Shepard... I mean, how in hell did he get that ability?