23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Kain82]

Haven't posted for a while so thought I will. The Mass Effect trilogy are probably my favourite games of all time. ME1+2 was just pure epic,  I spent around 100+ hours on each. Then there's ME3 where I spend around 40 hours to complete, doing ALL the side quests and multiplayer to increase my galactic readiness. The best gameplay and soundtrack out of all the trilogy imo and it was everything I'd expect in the final installment of one of the best series ever made...until, of course...*drum rolls*.....the ending. 
Finished the game over 2 months ago and my soul is still crushed and still P*ssed off at the ending, that won't change...However the ending should and I'm remaining hopeful. 

Bioware is skating on thin ice with me and the upcoming extended DLC may end my belief in bioware for good...Indoctrination theory > please save us!.. And give us a happy ending we've earned after the hundreds of hours we spent!..Not to mention the multiple DIFFERENT endings promised.

I love you Bioware, I don't want to break up!

Modifié par Kain82, 15 mai 2012 - 08:05 .

[Voodoo-j]

Holger1405 wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
But why should it be impossible to build <mass relays> new ones?
Matriarch Aethyta already made this proposal, so it is most probably in the technical scope of the Asari, plus, by coincidences,   this fleets have a group of scientists, engineers, technicians and thieves, (Ok probably only one thief.) gathered together that just built a pretty big device of incredible complexity.

And btw these Fleets have one Mass Relay left, it called Citadel, and no it is not been destroyed, in none of the endings. Watch YouTube if you don't belief me.

Making the suggestion that they should research something is far from the same as doing it. Also, the Citadel isn't a Mass Relay. The reaper relay mentioned in ME1 is inactive and no one has a clue how to reactivate it. At best, you've got the exit end of the Prothean Conduit, which was only opened for a brief time in ME1 - we don't even know if anyone studied that further or figured out what they'd done. It was still wasn't anything like a proper Mass Relay, and you sure as heck can't "send" using it.

You did change this part a bit, didn't you?   

AmstradHero wrote...
Making the suggestion that they should research something is far from the same as doing it

True, still the Game clearly addressed this possibility and therefore it is not impossible.
 

Also, the Citadel isn't a Mass Relay. The reaper relay mentioned in ME1 is inactive and no one has a clue how to reactivate it. At best, you've got the exit end of the Prothean Conduit, which was only opened for a brief time in ME1 - we don't even know if anyone studied that further or figured out what they'd done. It was still wasn't anything like a proper Mass Relay, and you sure as heck can't "send" using it.

So basically the Citadel IS a Mass Relay, but the Races don't know how to use it.  
Even if they don't find out how to use it, they would have at least a blueprint for a Mass Relay just as they had one for the Crucible.

These are things that I wonder about as well, supposedly there are now TWO Prothean VI now? Perhaps the data to build a Mass relay is already present?

Again I don't like the ending, the catalyst makes no sense even offering the options, peace with the synthetics of this time was made.  But past that if the relays are destroyed to take out the reapers.  I don't see that as a bleak ending, the possibilities are there to rebuild.  There is hope.

[JediMike2372]

Kyda wrote...

JediMike2372 wrote...
Especially if TIM was indoctrinated. And if he was, how is he able to shoot himself when no one else could? Sloppy. I dunno.

Saren in ME1 does the same thing if you convince him by talking... what in my opinion was sloppy was the fact that TIM could control Shepard... I mean, how in hell did he get that ability?

Forgot about that In ME1.  But you are right.  I don't see how he could get that ability.  And in such a short amount of time.

[Voodoo-j]

3DandBeyond wrote...

As for the results of choosing Destroy, well that can be debated till the cows come home and sing the Phantom of the Opera. We have no context on which to base any intelligent conclusion, except...

We do have the doom and gloom of a destroyed mass relay in the Arrival. It's the only context we have in game for a destroyed mass relay.

We have the understanding as stated within the game that the reapers do not only destroy advanced organics, but the also do a kind of slash and burn to all the resources on the planets that they've harvested (and while we're at it what does harvesting sound like to you-to me, it's food). This means that all the thoughts of idyllic scenes of people getting together to feed the various fleets might just be pipe dreams. It's stated within the game, they do not leave stuff behind. They won't have had time to destroy everything, but perhaps enough to make life pretty grim. That is if the relays don't take care of everything.

And then of course players are also forced into the Joker/Jungle planet nonsense that's completely out of line with the story and Joker's and your teammate's characters. It's also patently impossible to believe that specific people could be there logistically. They were hit by the same beam Shepard was, some of them, and it would mean Joker knew ahead of time he needed to evacuate them by what shuttle or Normandy landing in London in front of Harbinger/Bob the reaper and he did it because he knew he had to beat the shockwave. Ok, I give up, it's completely logical, no nonsense here.

Shepard ceases to be Shepard-not the one I played.
Your teammates run away-not the ones I played
Joker has a premonition and gathers your LI and teammates up and runs away before the predictable shockwave hits-ok, in what game would this make sense?

But if that all still does make sense-let's again take one thing. Retreat. Shepard's hit by the beam and someone yells retreat. Retreat to where for what purpose? It's a suicide mission and this or death, nothing else. I will repeat this, it's like drowning in an ocean and deciding to swim to another spot because the drowning is better there. No retreat, a fight to the death. Or, someone would have to try to get to the beam to the Citadel. No other option here. But, as it plays out it's nonsense.

While things may seem grim, there are various outposts if any left in Sol but also in nearby systems.
Not counting whats left from the Citadel and other ships, from what I've read agriculture is rather advanced.

It's been "unofficially stated by Bioware, that the relays didn't explode, they were overcharged or something to that effect, thus did not wipe out the solar systems they are in.

Yeah I still can't think of any reason that makes any sense of why the SRII is shown flying away and stranded.

And of course the catalyst itself..

[BlueStorm83]

     I've just been reading a few articles, some in favor of changing/adding/replacing the endings, and some in favor of keeping everything exactly the way it is.

     I don't understand how BioWare can say that the ending is immutible because this is their "Artistic Vision."  Because it's not their artistic vision, it's OUR artistic visions.  They creators and we players combined.  Let me explain:

     In BioWare's artistic Vision, who died on Virmire, Alenko or Williams?  That was left up to us.  Where and how did they die?  On the tower or in the trench with the bomb?  Again, up to us.  Dis Shepard decide who to save and then waver?  Or did he stick to his decision?  Did he try to save both or just let the unfortunate one know that their sacrifice was necessary?  All that was up to us, and that was one choice.  Let's make things more complicated...

     MORDIN SOLUS.  His part in the Artistic Vision is second most malleable, second only to Shepard himself.  Or Herself.  Him/her/she/he/shim is supposed to be our own unique avatar, sure.  But MORDIN!  Did he kill Malon?  Did he spare him?  Did he keep or destroy the data?  Did he die on the suicide mission?  Did he manage to save Eve in 3, if he did survive the suicide mission?  Was he working for Wrex or for Wreave if we survived the suicide mission when he had or did not have the data from Malon (Who he may or may not have killed) which he could have or could not have saved?  Did he try to cure the Krogan at the Shroud?  Did he succeed with the real cure, did he succeed with a fake cure, or did we tell him about the fake cure and convince him that he didn't have to die for nothing and then help build the crucible!?  HOLY HELL that's a lot of variables!  Where is the Immutable Artistic Vision now?

     The Artistic Vision is with BioWare AND with we the Players.  They created a sci-fi scenario wherein we achieve Suspension of Disbelief, and then we guide the situation as our own active character.  I'll type the next sentence in all caps, as it's my biggest point, sorry if caps seem rude.

     MASS EFFECT'S ARTISTIC VISION IS ONE OF CHOICE, VARIABILITY, AND ALLOWING ITS PLAYERS TO CARVE OUT THEIR OWN FATE, IN WHATEVER WAY THEY CHOOSE.  ITS ARTISTIC VISION IS ONLY COMPROMISED WHEN IT BREAKS FROM ITS OWN TRADITIONS.

     BioWare can safely allow more endings without compromising that integrity.  Also, it will not preclude more games in the series.  At the end of Mass Effect 2, Shepard can destroy the collector base, run back to the Normandy, but then die as all his allies are gone, and there is no one left to catch him.  That is an ending to the game.  However, that ending is not one that leads into Mass Effect 3.  The ending is valid, it can be the end of your Shepard's story.  MY story, wherein my very own Shempard made it back to the ship, and made his heroic escape, having saved everyone, continued into Mass Effect 3.  If your story ended in Mass Effect 2, your Shepard is no less real than Shempard himself.  Shempard thanks your Shepard for his or her service.  He/she will be remembered.

     That said, BioWare can add an ending where Shepard was indeed indoctrinated, as in the indoctrination theory.  We can reach this ending by giving Shepard the choice to commit suicide rather than make any of the 3 choices, signalling that he refuses to play by the Reapers' rules.  BioWare can add an ending where Shepard is not indoctrinated, and he can signal the fleet to destroy the citadel, like in my previous post.  BioWare can add an ending where Shepard is neither on the citadel NOR indoctrinated, but rather he's been abducted by Harbinger after his near death experience, and has been taken to become the core of a new reaper, and breaking free, he desperately fights to escape and realizes that in the time he's missed, the combined fleets had actually already defeated the Reapers, and he, aboard Harbinger, has been brought into dark space beyond the galaxy, alone, and he dies there content in the knowledge that at least everyone else was victorious.

     If BioWare (or their taskmasters at EA) decide that they want another Mass Effect game, they can make it take place after any one of those endings.  The other endings won't suddenly be invalidated or wrong; at least, no moreso than the "Shep died in Mass Effect 2, the Galaxy must have been destroyed in ME3, oh well!" ending where Shep dies in the collector base.

     Personally, I really do like the Indoctrination Theory, so I'm MAKING that my own ending.  After Shep wakes up, he arm-wrestles Harbinger, beats him, steals his girlfriend, and kicks his ass up and down the block.  Yeah, and Jesus shows up to help too, since it's MY ending.  And to hell with BioWare trying to steal my contribution to the story away from me.

[cyrslash1974]

Could I suggest Bioware to watch "I, Robot" movie. Conflict synthetics/ organics. The ending is the proof that an "undiscutable" logic could be wrong (Vicky's logic in I,Robot).

StarChild's logic is absolutly wrong. We can't approve this logic. We can't choose one solution proposed by the Catalyst.

We have to fight it. For freedom. Artistic integrity is here synonymous with slavery.

[Benchpress610]

BlueStorm83 wrote..
 Personally, I really do like the Indoctrination Theory, so I'm MAKING that my own ending.  After Shep wakes up, he arm-wrestles Harbinger, beats him, steals his girlfriend, and kicks his ass up and down the block.  Yeah, and Jesus shows up to help too, since it's MY ending.  And to hell with BioWare trying to steal my contribution to the story away from me.

LMAO...I like that...

[BlueStorm83]

Cyrslash1974 is absolutely right. To accept any proposal by the Catalyst is to give in to tyranny. I for one would sooner die than either betray my allies or to merge in any way, be it mentally or physically, with a machine.

[Jackal13th]

Nihilus was shot in the the back of the head  in Mass effect 1 .

Modifié par Jackal13th, 15 mai 2012 - 09:23 .

[Thanatos144]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Cyrslash1974 is absolutely right. To accept any proposal by the Catalyst is to give in to tyranny. I for one would sooner die than either betray my allies or to merge in any way, be it mentally or physically, with a machine.

Drama the other white meat

[3DandBeyond]

Bubbles, they cause ripples but are full of air.

[Kanaris]

Sorry and to point out I am in no way bashing you but listening to us and our opinions as to what is wrong and what needs changed or fixed and doing something about them are two totally different things.

What is the point of listening if you have no intention of acting on the advise of those who actually provide some of the capital needed to make these games?

[3DandBeyond]

Kanaris wrote...

Sorry and to point out I am in no way bashing you but listening to us and our opinions as to what is wrong and what needs changed or fixed and doing something about them are two totally different things.

What is the point of listening if you have no intention of acting on the advise of those who actually provide some of the capital needed to make these games?

The problem is, fixing this will cost money, and to be blunt companies no longer look at long term goals, meaning profits down the road.  They want you to pay now and pay often and don't care if you get out.  Sorry, it's true.  They bet on those that remain silent and just figure there's nothing to be done about it and nothing will get done anyway.  Or, they bet on those that really don't care what they get or are given. 

Consider that a lot of people that start off saying they liked the ending, really didn't.  They say it's ok or it had flaws or they offer no constructive input into the conversation.  They just peg people as whiners, complainers, and people that feel entitled.  People say we are demanding something for nothing.  And I say, "no, we are asking for things we were promised."  We are also asking that a consumer product that we paid our money for, be fixed.

And what added fuel to the fire was not only the void of silence, but statements that are very unhelpful from the devs/writers that actually seem to say fans are non-intellectual.  We need clarity because we don't understand their vision, their artistic vision.  This in the face of some actual intellectual types (not bought and paid for game reviewers), that say the end story falls flat on its face and is basically bad.

We've asked repeatedly through many venues to be enlightened by the wisdom contained within the ending and we get nothing.  I want to know if they can explain it as something rational beyond indoctrination(which they've said it isn't).

I'm an older lady and I have read and do read a lot of books.  I have watched and I do watch a lot of movies, SF included.  I've never seen such a horrible, disconnected ending to anything (and I've seen a lot of crap) until this. 

If Bioware wants to assume I'm ignorant then have at it.  Help me be intellectually stimulated and explain it to me. Please.  And make no mistake, I am asking this respectfully. 

I was not too dumb to understand the other 2.99 games, but I need help with this ending.  I want to know how it fits in with the rest of the story.  I want Shepard's actions (actually, inaction) explained given the character of Shepard.  I want to know where this star kid came from.  I want to be uplifted.  I want to know how anyone in their right mind could even consider Synthesis given all the negative ways "people" tried to achieve it within these games.  Project Overlord was one of the most horrifying attempts.

I want to see your vision because, no I don't get it. 

[Misguided Terran]

 Yeah, have a few problems with the ending myself.  First off:

Ships.  We saw what happened to the Normandy, and from the looks of it it was in FTL when the shockwave hit, tearing its engines off and casting it onto an unknown planet.  Sure everyone's pissed about the Normandy getting taken down, but what about the entire fleet back at earth?  I'm pretty sure they dropped out of orbit as well, their systems failing and whatnot.  So that LiveShip sustaining everyone idea is bull, and everyone still starves.

Destroying synthetics?  What's to stop that wave from destroying all other tech, like omnitools and biotic amps?  Hell, most Quarians have synthetic implants, they're probably gonna be far more unhealthy than ever before.  It doesn't make sense that only the Geth and Reapers are destroyed, while VI's and the like remain intact.

Control and Synthesis make little sense, kill yourself to make the Reapers eff away or turn everyone green.  I can understand making a huge final galactic changing decision, but how this was handled is just badly written and highly suspect.

As for the final moments, it certainly pulls me out of the whole thing.  Mass Effect used to be a series of discovery, learning about the Protheans fate, meeting new interesting species, finding new things in every nook and cranny.  In the final moments, we could have learned MORE about the Reapers, what exactly they were, why they were doing this.  Instead, some star-child explains that he made them and they programmed to do that and okay do this now.

That's just terrible.  I used to look at the Reapers with a sense of dread, respect, and contempt.  Now I look at them like they're windup toys.  THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.  The Reapers now appear like they have no true motivation, planning, or idea what they should be doing.  Instead of being insidious, hard to read, terrifying beings, they are cheapened to routine attack dogs.  This is a far cry from Sovereign's, "You exist because we allow it, and you will end, because we demand it."

So many things went wrong in the last five minutes that clarification cannot fix, only rub salt in the wound.  It goes against previous writings, does not keep narrative coherence, yada yada, you've all heard it before.  Explaining what happened in the ending is not going to gain you any fans, period.

However, if the Indoc Theory is correct, I would LOVINGLY accept a new, final mission.  I don't care if I have the team with me and I have to go solo, but I want to see all the decisions come together.  Which races did I save, who joined my cause, is the Destiny Ascension truly able to tear a hole through a ship?  I'm very much doubting the folks on the Citadel were instantly slaughtered, and on and on and on.

I want to see Wrex and Grunt laughing maniacally as they charge through hordes of husks, with their band of Krogan behind them.  The Rachni pour down and tear open some new ones.  Geth Prime airdrops that give support fire.  THE WHOLE SHEBANG!

But finally, this means a final conflict with the Reapers, mostly I'd like to take Harbinger down.  Some form or fashion, hell the Alliance managed to kill one, let's see what the entire allied fleet can do.  T'would be interesting to infiltrate a Reaper, we've been in one before, would be AWESOME to be inside a moving, live Reaper.  But mostly, I'd like to see the organic part of the Reaper, make them vulnerable.  I think the best thing that could happen is hearing a Reaper beg us not to kill it.

Get rid of the circular logic, the bad taste of the final decision, and add in more gameplay?  Sounds good to me.  And even if there's an additional chance that Shepard survives, I'm pretty sure there'd be something that forces them into retirement.

In the end, explaining will earn no fans, money, or respect.  Adding on, however, could win back lost ones, garner more attention, and perhaps immediate and future profits.  I know this is the end of Shepard's arc, but for eff's sakes, don't let this be the end of the galaxy.

Modifié par Misguided Terran, 15 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR]

gosh. has it really been this long since i beat it? wow. and still this thread is strong. still holding the line.

[BlueStorm83]

     Lol, yup, the thread's still going.  I imagine that it'll keep going until the legitimate problems with the "endings" are fixed.  And they are legitimate problems.

     Honestly, I'd either take new endings that actually have the things we did actually matter, OR I'd like BioWare to explain that they put SO much work into the game, and EA cut their development time short, or that they forced them to make From Ashes in the time that they were supposed to be making endings, so they reused the bits of ending that they HAD made, recolored them, and took the dead kid from the begining and replaced his skin with a fog effect and just kinda slapped it together.  I'd like them to say, "Yeah, we really REALLY wanted to deliver an ending worthy of the series, but corporate politics and schedules ruled it out, so we focussed on the game itself and just hoped and PRAYED that the INCREDIBLE experience that the other 99.9% of the game was would outweigh it."

     And honestly?  Bioware?  If that's the case, then bro, I understand.  I have stupid bosses that screw up the tasks that I think are necessary in order to do things that I say are pointless.  I  understand having a schedule and having to compromise the quality of my work just to get things done and not get fired because they didn't give me enough time to get the real work done.

     If that is the case, BioWare, just say so.  I'm sure that everyone would understand and forgive.  Because if this Godchild Ancient AI Reaper Creator nonsense really WAS your Artistic Vision, then I just don't seem to like your art anymore.  And that's sad, since before now I'd see the BioWare icon and just scream "Gimmie!"  I WANT to want more stuff from you all, I held your company up there with the greats before EA started indoctrinating you (COUGH, METAPHOR) into another money factory.

     And hey, EA, earning money is a good thing.  I try to do it often.  But I can guarantee you that you'll make more money by satisfying the customers you have.   Because we'll spread the word.  Saturday before last, I was telling a guy at work named Axel "Dude, buy Mass Effect.  Get all 3, do all the DLC, it's simply the greatest Scifi story ever."  Last Saturday I told him, told my uncle, and told my friend Kyle "Don't get Mass Effect 3 for now, not until they do something to the endings.  I was more disappointed than I ever have been in my life."

     Guys, really, I felt sick to my stomach over how it all ended.  I can understand wanting to tell a story and express yourself.  I write stories, my characters and plots are SACRED to me.  But they follow their own personalities, and the plots are organic to the action, and follow logically what's preceeded it all.  Maybe I don't have any shocking twists, but honestly, LIFE doesn't have shocking twists.

     The Blue Option just makes you the new Illusive Man.  The Green Option makes you the new Saren.  The Red Option might let you stay true to Shepard, but only if you've been Renegade Shepard.  And then all my crew who were EMBROILED in the most intense ground war ever somehow being on the Normandy, as Joker runs AWAY from a fight that determines if everyone everywhere lives or dies?  No, that's not a twist, that's not artistic, that's not even Mass Effect.

     Bioware, please make this right.

[Xellith]

GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR wrote...

gosh. has it really been this long since i beat it? wow. and still this thread is strong. still holding the line.

I believe this is a general feedback and suggestions thread.  Its stickied too. Thats prolly why its still getting updated. This thread will keep going until ME3 support is discontinued.

[Sliit]

Someone ripped out the last chapter of my favourite story and used it for toilet paper. I've been left hanging and need to jump - to another gaming experience. What has been done in the 'conclusion' of ME3 will go down in gaming history as WTF. DLC conned and countless hours of gameplay for Shepard to simply be what, made immortal on some Reaper she/he tried so damned hard to annihilate. No epilogue, no alternative. Why... bitter disappointment.
Oh and I need to MP so I can get a higher battle readiness score. I feel ripped off and shat on. Thanx guys..'so long and thanks for all the fish'. Cheers.

[Holger1405]

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

@Holger1405,
I know you are having a discussion on various points, but a lot of it seems to hinge on organic life and all that-ok to be clear it is rather evident that the reapers, Sovereign included are not harvesting organic life merely for the purpose the star kid says (his warped idea of some noble purpose). They turn it into goo. Or they try to perform some warped experimentation on it to make reaper creatures. [/quote]

The Reapers exist to extinct advanced organic live on a certain Point.  The Game, through the Catalyst character, explain why they doing that, and that Catalyst did control the Reapers.

Now we can debate if there is in game evidence that the Catalyst is lying/wrong/inaccurate and the Reapers did have an agenda on their own.
Still, in the end, and for the end, it doesn't matter, the outcome would be the same.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
As to you statement that the player isn't forced into some nonsensical situation, well with all due respect you are wrong. [/quote]

I agree that I am wrong about your Shepard, but not about mine, because we have different opinions about that. 

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Shepard is the player and vice versa, so we'll go with Shepard. Shepard's isn't forced, coerced, or controlled into anything, but the game gives no other option besides quitting it when forced with stupid choices and they are stupid. [/quote]

Sorry, but that this choices are stupid is, again, your opinion, not mine.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Assuming you play as a paragon Shepard-I say this because it is a choice you can make, and you unite the Geth and Quarian and you care about getting EDI and Joker together. All of these are possible and the game must make allowances for your choices. Assuming all this, you will commit genocide if you pick Destroy. I have more angst over killing a spider than Shepard is allowed when Shepard is told s/he can pick Destroy and what it means. [/quote]

You have every right to think so, but how should Bioware address this situation? One other Shepard, maybe also mostly paragon, might save both Geth and Quarian because he thinks that he needs as many allies as possible to defeat the Reapers (that should be the case, unfortunately EMS is poor balanced.) but he considers the Geth to be a threat and is moor then willing to sacrifice them.
A animation that shows Shepard disgusted be the thought to kill the Geth would undermine this players game.   

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Consider that Shepard cared about Legion-what does that mean? What determines what is life? Many will tell you the self-awareness, sentience is the factor. Legion sacrificed himself for the greater good. It meant something, but at the end it doesn't. This is the height of nonsense. If tomorrow my toaster started talking to me and told me it was there to help me and it stopped working, it would matter. Destroy is nonsense as presented. [/quote]

And when you feel so strongly about this, you can choose control. But we are coming to this now, aren't we?

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Take Control as an option-every single person and being that has tried to control the reapers in the game has been shown to be a demi-god in their own minds at least. Or they are already under control of someone else. They didn't all start that way and may have had decent intent even, but they were all evil or made evil. Shepard never saw control as any kind of option, ever. Period. Even TIM when given the chance to insert a control chip in Shepard saw it as a non-option. Why? Because it might interfere with things. And the idea that Shepard after death controls the reapers is stupid-what does s/he become the new star kid or something? Nonsense as an option. [/quote]

As far as I recall only TIM did attempted to control the Reapers and he, indeed, become indoctrinated before he could succeed. Shepard's situation is totally different.

Controlling the Reapers means controlling the worst enemy ever existed, that's is something completely different than putting a control chip in Shepard's head, plus it is meant to interfere with thinks, that is the whole idea behind this Option.
As a Player who use this choice you can Imagine whatever you want to do with the Reapers.
Control the other Races, as TIM would do, or fling every Reaper into the next Sun. It's entirely up too you and imho that is a great thing. 

Further on, your Shepard, a.k.a you (as mine a.k.a me also.) didn't saw that as an Option, but, again, there are other Players who clearly think different, so don't tell me, or them, that control is  nonsense or stupid, it might be for you, but that didn't make it a universal truth.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Synthesis has always been a stated purpose from the beginning of ME1-Sovereign said it, Saren said it. Others stated similar things and talked about it with horrified distaste. It ultimately destroys fundamentally what is unique about all life, including synthetics such as EDI and the Geth. Nonsense. [/quote]

This time I agree to your statement, but still thereby Synthesis didn't become nonsense, just something we don't like.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
So, if all 3 choices are nonsense and I will maintain forever that they are since they are all predicated upon the one big bad super dooper flaw within the star kid, that famous fabulous circular logic and since none of them take into account the individuality of the races, nor the choices made previously within the game (see Geth/Quarian paragon option), the player as Shepard is indeed forced into a nonsensical situation. It's complete nonsense.

The point was also being made that once that beam hits Shepard it's as if Shepard is no longer the same character you have been playing. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe your Shepard would never question anything a crazy illogical star kid would say and just wander off to make a stupid choice. Maybe your Shepard was always weak-minded and would be easily controlled and made to shoot Anderson. Maybe your Shepard would never consider the star kid was lying or evil-remember the star kid told Shepard that he controlled the reapers and had directed them to carry out his solution and repeat the cycle over and over again. This means the kid has routinely ordered the reapers to kill trillions of advanced lifeforms. My Shepard would never just listen to him and say, "ok, what do you want me to do, buddy?" Especially after the kid said it couldn't basically get the crucible to work and needed Shepard to do that. [/quote]

Basically you are telling me here that I am weak minded.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Shepard is the player and vice versa[/quote]

Well, I made several statements in this Thread about Catalyst and his logic, and how far I trust him, so maybe you should read them.

Still, maybe I am weak minded. Or perhaps I am not prejudiced about the ending because it didn't gave me blue babies.     

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
Ok for all we know the star kid could just be a manifestation that Harbinger created in order to look all innocent to Shepard. The fact that the hero of the galaxy never utters one word of protest is complete unadulterated nonsense and if you want to finish the game you are forced to go ahead with his choices. Why on Earth would I believe a thing he says? [/quote]

Because your Shepard was already down, with no hope of success, before the Catalyst brought him up? And even when you did't beliefing anything what he says, you can see, with in game Knowledge only, that the three choices contradicts Catalyst goals.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
As for the results of choosing Destroy, well that can be debated till the cows come home and sing the Phantom of the Opera. We have no context on which to base any intelligent conclusion, except...

We do have the doom and gloom of a destroyed mass relay in the Arrival. It's the only context we have in game for a destroyed mass relay. [/quote]

As a giant Rock was steered into this Mass Relay... I would consider this different than in the endings.

And again, the writers decide what is canon and what is not. The endings clearly show that the Relay Systems are not destroyed.     
 
[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
We have the understanding as stated within the game that the reapers do not only destroy advanced organics, but the also do a kind of slash and burn to all the resources on the planets that they've harvested (and while we're at it what does harvesting sound like to you-to me, it's food). This means that all the thoughts of idyllic scenes of people getting together to feed the various fleets might just be pipe dreams. It's stated within the game, they do not leave stuff behind. They won't have had time to destroy everything, but perhaps enough to make life pretty grim. That is if the relays don't take care of everything. [/quote]

A lot of things getting "harvested" are not made into food.
Also, It is clearly stated in the Game that the Reapers focused on areas of high population density.
Plus the Relay's are Reaper tech, and the game stated clearly what you will gain for using this kind of tech sooner or later.    

So I disagree that educated guesses on the outcomes are "pipe dreams" but even when they are, I would consider it better and far more healthy then imagine the worst possible outcome.  

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
And then of course players are also forced into the Joker/Jungle planet nonsense that's completely out of line with the story and Joker's and your teammate's characters. It's also patently impossible to believe that specific people could be there logistically. They were hit by the same beam Shepard was, some of them, and it would mean Joker knew ahead of time he needed to evacuate them by what shuttle or Normandy landing in London in front of Harbinger/Bob the reaper and he did it because he knew he had to beat the shockwave. Ok, I give up, it's completely logical, no nonsense here.


Shepard ceases to be Shepard-not the one I played.
Your teammates run away-not the ones I played
Joker has a premonition and gathers your LI and teammates up and runs away before the predictable shockwave hits-ok, in what game would this make sense? [/quote]

I was pretty clear about this in my previous Post, or to put it simple, here you are right.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...
But if that all still does make sense-let's again take one thing. Retreat. Shepard's hit by the beam and someone yells retreat. Retreat to where for what purpose? It's a suicide mission and this or death, nothing else. I will repeat this, it's like drowning in an ocean and deciding to swim to another spot because the drowning is better there. No retreat, a fight to the death. Or, someone would have to try to get to the beam to the Citadel. No other option here. But, as it plays out it's nonsense.[/quote]

Major Coats call the troops back to regroup, and that is a common Military tactic if you're first wave just got decimated.  

 

Modifié par Holger1405, 16 mai 2012 - 12:27 .

[BabylonClo]

Though the ending was a pile of rubbish, I did enjoy the vast majority of Mass Effect 3, notably:
- the Shroud mission on Tuchanka (genophage diffusion seemed bit too easy, but whatever - that whole mission was epic!)
- taking pot shots with Garrus on the Citadel
- Garrus teasing Liara about dinosaurs, and Joker teasing her about hair tentacles
- Javik I love Javik with a fiery passion.

Favourite moment of the whole series: meeting Vigil in ME1. Really, I was blown away by that, the whole idea of the Reapers working in cycles and the Protheans not being the first at all. Which makes the "Space Magic" ending of ME3 all the more horribly disappointing, but... :-/

[3DandBeyond]

@Holger1405

Your reference to blue babies is rather insulting and at this point I guess you mean it that way.  You seem to be trying to minimize my thoughts on all this as if I am just unhappy at not having a happy, sappy ending with blue babies.  You want to make it all seem juvenile.

I have categorically stated here that yes, I'd like the possibility of a happy ending, but I also think there should be an even more probable not so happy one.  I have no problem working even harder in the game to get a real happy ending or having things go to hell because of things I didn't do. 

Beyond that you apparently have a different view on what paragon and renegade means within the game.  A paragon tends to be more thoughtful and careful, concerned for others and caring.  A renegade is more haphazard, rushes in, cares little about others and just wants to get the job done.  In short, a paragon stops to think what consequences there may be whereas a renegade doesn't care about them unless it messes up the goal.

If I view my Shepard as Paragon that is just as valid as your non-caring Paragon that only sees people as war assets-basically a renegade not paragon.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 16 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[Xellith]

Take these long debating posts elsewhere. This is a feedback and suggestions topic. Figure out who is right and then come back? lol

[3DandBeyond]

Xellith wrote...

Take these long debating posts elsewhere. This is a feedback and suggestions topic. Figure out who is right and then come back? lol

 

I don't usually take part in them myself and this thread is generally seen as whatever people want it to be.  Most often we don't spend time trying to prove someone's wrong or right, it's about what people think about things.  If your name isn't on one of these posts (there have been some), just ignore them.  It's a discussion between two people.

I will add a great Forbes posting I found recently that succinctly nails some things right on the head.

http://www.forbes.co...of-the-shepard/

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

     Snipped......

     And hey, EA, earning money is a good thing.  I try to do it often.  But I can guarantee you that you'll make more money by satisfying the customers you have.   Because we'll spread the word.  Saturday before last, I was telling a guy at work named Axel "Dude, buy Mass Effect.  Get all 3, do all the DLC, it's simply the greatest Scifi story ever."  Last Saturday I told him, told my uncle, and told my friend Kyle "Don't get Mass Effect 3 for now, not until they do something to the endings.  I was more disappointed than I ever have been in my life."

     Guys, really, I felt sick to my stomach over how it all ended.  I can understand wanting to tell a story and express yourself.  I write stories, my characters and plots are SACRED to me.  But they follow their own personalities, and the plots are organic to the action, and follow logically what's preceeded it all.  Maybe I don't have any shocking twists, but honestly, LIFE doesn't have shocking twists.

     The Blue Option just makes you the new Illusive Man.  The Green Option makes you the new Saren.  The Red Option might let you stay true to Shepard, but only if you've been Renegade Shepard.  And then all my crew who were EMBROILED in the most intense ground war ever somehow being on the Normandy, as Joker runs AWAY from a fight that determines if everyone everywhere lives or dies?  No, that's not a twist, that's not artistic, that's not even Mass Effect.

     Bioware, please make this right.

Sick to my stomach is exactly how I felt.  And you are so right-if the ending had been awesome I would have personally bought 1,2,and 3 for my nephews and my brother, as well as gotten them cards for DLC as presents.  I would have told everyone just how great it is.  As it is I explain the ending (my brother had already heard about it) and when I say word for word what the star kid says about the created and creator, my brother looked at me like I misunderstood what he said.  Then, I explain EDI and my choice to reunite geth and quarian and he looked at me like I definitely misunderstood something.  The more you try to explain the ending the worse it gets.

[BlueStorm83]

     That is a good post over at Forbes.  And he's absolutely right, not only should there be better "VICTORY!" endings, there should be a couple crushing "DEFEAT..." endings.

     They seem to have given us both victory and defeat in all 3 (six?  SEVEN?) current endings, but the defeat part greatly outweighs any victory.  And of course there's the Normandy's bull**** nonsense escape.  Remove that scene and the rest would be better.

     I'd love to defeat the reapers on our own strength and completely ignore the Catalyst Godchild, and then be treated to scenes of devestation and people talking about how many millions and billions died to defeat the reapers.

     I read all the emails and lore and whatnot in the game.  Kal'Reegar and his men sacrificed their lives in the fight.  Turians performed suicide strikes against processing reapers who were grinding people up to make more reapers, taking out thousands of civilians but at least denying the enemy troops.  Primarch Victus said that their sacrifice was worthy to "let them join the spirit of Palaven itself."  That's a damn honor to a Turian.  SO many people died for their freedom and for their people, and the current endings, all of them, just aren't enough.  Destroy seems like the only rational choice, and it would be fine if it didn't also kill EDI and the Geth and lead to that stupid Normandy escape.

     Hell!  The Normandy Scene doesn't make any sense!  Just cut it from the ending altogether, and give us a meeting between the generals on the fleet and the Crucible Scientists talking about building new relays, so we can at least feel like we didn't absolutely BONE EVERYONE!