23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Voodoo-j wrote...

I'm guessing 99.9% of those that were not happy with the ending agree the holo kid has got to go. I think it would have been better to have EDI talking over comlink describing the terminals.
Even then, I still want more options, reasons to replay.

I also never understood the *nightmares* we had to run around chasing some kid wtf?
Just show a cutscene it's one of those parts when replaying the game, that is going to drive me completely nuts.. oh this again..grumble grumble.

Exactly.  I could get through those nightmares before I saw glow boy.  Now, I can't stomach them.  I can't stand seeing the kid in the vent.  The nightmares would have been so awesome if he had not been there.  The first one just empty.  And as Shepard goes on, more and more shadows appear that are talking to him/her.  The voices were well done.

The glow boy has ruined some decent parts of the game.  Shepard already had people to care and worry about-a whole galaxy full.  Mordin needed his nephew's face, but Shepard had friends and maybe a love interest or Anderson or even Hackett.  Dozens of people.  I don't care about this kid.

[daveyeisley]

Yeah, there has always been a sort of unspoken compact between us players and the writers that our "illusion of choice" would always give us some option that our Shepard could justify.

If they want to keep glow boy, we still need an option not defined by him.

[bhaalchild22]

Bioware has to do something about the starkid. While I think an new and improved ending is in order its clear Bioware is going to keep the crap 3 choice ending the way it is and just add "clarity". If they do one thing that has to be done is the removal of the Starkid. Personally, and this is obviously being mentioned, but the starkid should be replaced with EDI. The choices if explained by her would be far more digestible since she is a trusted source. I don't like or trust a reaper construct. I do trust my ship's AI who has proven her loyalty time and again.

[SlackRabbit]

I think 4th choice, shoot the star kid, shoot all three colors.....Reapers die and Shepard goes back downstaris and has a brewskie with Anderson till Garrus arrives talking about how he took out some tough mofo Marauder called Sheilds  

Modifié par SlackRabbit, 16 mai 2012 - 03:58 .

[Holger1405]

Archonsg wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And tell me, how you would Control anything when you are dead?

Because it is Science Fiction.

You mean science fantasy.

There is a difference, in that science fiction needs to abide by predetermined and existing rules set up by the author at the start of the narative and usually conforms to reality more then not but if an effect or "condition" needs to bend that reality, come up with a plausible way and explantion for said condition to exist.
Case in point, Ezo and the Mass Effect Fields.
Make no mistake, Mass Effect the series was SCIENCE FICTION for the most part but stops being so during the last 10-15 minutes.

Well, I can see why we are both Joss Whedon fans.
I agree, the narrative coherence is more important in a Science Fiction setting then in a Fantasy setting, still I like it when a Fantasy stories also tries to uphold coherence. But that is not the Point.

Mass Effect is, I have the same opinion, mostly Science Fiction, but and this is my Point, not merely Science Fiction. The author of the conversation you quoted refers to Star Wars, and the "giant space worm that lives in an asteroid." How is that different to Kalros or any other thresher maw? There are other examples. Shepard resurrected after falling from Space to the ground of a Planet. The whole concept of Biotic (The Force much) and more.
So, imho there was already "Space Magic" or science fantasy in this Game before the Catalyst was introduced.

Archonsg wrote...
In all three cases of the "choices" you get. NONE of them can be attributed to anything you know in game, explained in any logigcal way as to how and why they would happen.

Control COULD work though, had they "plugged" Shepard as a living mind, as a living computer, making him part of the Citadel, (similar to Project Overlord, ME2 DLC) but that would not kill or remove Shepard's physical form from the game.

I think that the problem here are the Reapers (Again?!   )  Bioware created with the Reapers a uberstrong enemy, especially for a Main character that Fights on foot. That was good for the atmosphere of the Game, and imho also for the main storyline. But in the end Bioware had no other choice than to relied on some kind of space magic or deus ex machina to solve this problem.

Archonsg wrote...
If it is in control, it could just have easily have stopped the Reapers. Requiring your death isn't nescessary.

And THIS is a very good Point.
Admittedly Catalyst stated that he can't make this "new possibilities" happened, but there is no explanation whatsoever why he can't.  And this is not a coherence problem or a problem based on the question if this Game is science fiction or science fantasy, this is simple a logical gape.

Modifié par Holger1405, 16 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[Paulinesh]

SlackRabbit wrote...

I think 4th choice, shoot the star kid, shoot all three colors.....Reapers die and Shepard goes back downstaris and has a brewskie with Anderson till Garrus arrives talking about how he took out some tough mofo Marauder called Sheilds  

One more to add :-) Throwing Anderson into the ray of light then run until everything explodes and jump onto Normandy at the last second would be nice

Anyway, I enjoyed ME3 and really admire the job done by Bioware!

The best moments from the final part were shooting cans on the roof with Garrus, all the good-bye scenes and destroying Reapers on all of those planets was fun :-)

[Thanatos144]

SlackRabbit wrote...

I think 4th choice, shoot the star kid, shoot all three colors.....Reapers die and Shepard goes back downstaris and has a brewskie with Anderson till Garrus arrives talking about how he took out some tough mofo Marauder called Sheilds  

Except Shepard bites it in the story.....Nothing wrong with that ether. Ether Shepard is a hero or a coward.

[Holger1405]

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

[quote]Holger1405 wrote...

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Okay. Let's say take a hypothetical here. I'm going about my ordinary life, then one day I'm killed. In an alternate universe, I'm not killed that day, but I'm killed the day after. What lasting significant meaning does that extra day have to anyone? Practically none. [/quote]
Sorry, but your analogy is not even close to precise. It's not about one day, it's about Fifty thousand Years, and it's not about one life, it's about countless of life's.  Catalyst logic is clear, and it doesn't matter if his logic is sound, he beliefs his own logic. (btw, even when you think Catalyst logic is unsound, as I do, you can't proof that he is definitively wrong.) That means without his interference, ALL Organic life would be gone. Catalyst interferes and in any cycle new organic life is evolving.

So, what is the meaning of this?

Non interfering: Organics extinct. And that's it.
interfering: In any cycle, over Fifty thousand Years each, countless and countless of individuals can life a full life.  

Which action "renders organic life completely irrelevant." is imho not even open to debate.
[/quote]
You missed my point, and you're not looking at this at the big picture like the Catalyst is. You need to look at it at a galactic level, because that's what the Catalyst is doing. It's (supposedly) concerned with organic life across the galaxy. Let's try another hypothetical to see if you get it.

In the history of cycles, let's take cycles: A, B and C. After each cycle, the Reapers clean up. So take the state of the galaxy at the end of cycle C.
Now, imagine that cycle B did not exist at all. It just went from cycle A to cycle C and the organic creatures of cycle B never existed.
Take the state of the galaxy at the end of this point. It is exactly the same. There is no difference. Thus, organic life is rendered completely irrelevant by the "solution".[/quote]

I see your point, I simply disagree.
Even in your highly philosophical approach, or in an approach on "galactic level" it makes a great difference if organic live is allowed to survive or is completely exterminated.
The value of live can't be measured be his simple existence, but his non existence has no value at all.  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
Again, the Catalyst stated: "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."
The Catalyst didn't offered this solution to you the Crucible did, and so the whole basis of your argument is inaccurate.
[/quote]
No. The Crucible isn't speaking. The Catalyst is, and it is offering the solutions. The Crucible may (or may not) be what allows the Catalyst to provide these options, but it is the Catalyst who is offering them. We've already established that the Catalyst's logic is flawed. You admit as much, and argue that it's only important that the Catalyst believes its logic is sound. [/quote]

The catalyst explains the new solutions.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Again, these aren't new possibilities. They can't be new possibilities. For one - they're part of the citadel, which has been built for many, many, many cycles. It suddenly created new devices in the short ride that Shepard took up the magic space elevator? That's preposterous.

We know these aren't new solutions.
Destroy is what came before the Reapers existed.
Control is what we have now.
Synthesis is arguably the only "new" option - but theoretically the Reapers are supposedly already some organic/synthetic hybrid (but that opens up a whole new can of plothole worms), so that's not a new option either. [/quote]

You said in that other post that to "blatantly ignoring what the game is telling you" leads to >arguments< "disintegrates and becomes as useless as the Mass Relays." Well, you are right.
The Game is telling you that this "possibilities" are new. You counter this, with an argument about the physical possibility to construct such devices. In a Science Fiction setting...
Just curies, if you think that this is "preposterous" how do you think over the part of the storyline as Cerberus was able to resurrect Shepard after she/he drops from the Orbit of a Planet to his ground?     

Furthermore, imho this, "possibilities" are new. (possibilities! to stress that out.)  "Synthesis" is obviously a new possibility, "Control" is new because the controller did change, and "Destruction" meaning the non existence of the Reapers, is a new possibility, (maybe not unique, but even that is not to proof) because they did exist for countless cycles.  
[/quote]
Again, you've said the Catalyst's logic isn't sound, but that's irrelevant. Moreover, this demonstrates that the Catalyst's words aren't trustworthy. We know this as a player and as a character (which is an important distinction, and the latter is infinitely more important), because we've been presented with these options before. Destroy is what we've been fighting for this whole time, and it is what happened BEFORE the Reapers existed. We know that there must have a state before the Reapers, because they were the solution to the problem. In order for the problem to manifest, it must have existed before there was a solution. Thus destroying the Reapers is not new. [/quote]

We have no idea what the Catalyst really is, how old he is, or on what his logic is based. So we can't say if there was a time without Reapers in the Galaxy. Perhaps he brought his solution in place as the very first Organics evolved. But I admit, this is pure speculation.
Still, Destruction (the non existents of the Reapers) contradicts the existing condition. For the Catalyst the existence of the Reapers is the Status quo. So Destruction is a new solution.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Synthesis was the option presented to us way back in Mass Effect 1. That is what Saren was arguing for. This is NOT a new concept. [/quote]

Not a new concept in the Game, but a new concept for the Catalyst, and only that matters.  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Control is also not a new concept, because it's what TIM is trying to do for the entirety of ME3. These are not new possibilities. For the Catalyst to suggest so is utterly inconsistent with what the game series has presented to Shepard. [/quote]

Again, not a new concept in the Game, but a new concept for the Catalyst, due to the fact that he is not longer the controller. For the Catalyst, a Character as you stressed that out, it doesn't matter if this solutions are already present in the Game, it only matters that they are new to him.     

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
And I still disagree about the point that the Player is forced into a nonsensical situation.
[/quote]
Yet again you've misunderstood the very important distinction between player and character. This discussion is pointless if you're not going to attempt to understand important concepts. [/quote]

I do understand the difference between player and character, I doubt the relevance.
This is not a movie or a book. Shepard as the Point-of-View Character IS at the same time the Player.  

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
So basically the Citadel IS a Mass Relay, but the Races don't know how to use it.  
Even if they don't find out how to use it, they would have at least a blueprint for a Mass Relay just as they had one for the Crucible.
[/quote]
Incorrect. The Citadel is an inactive Mass Relay (though potentially only even a few people have that knowledge, and they could all be dead), that no one knows how to turn on. Also, the galaxy has had active Mass Relays for centuries and still hasn't figured them out. [/quote]

Can it be that we nit-pick here a little?

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Also, this is a ridiculous suggestion. Say I go back in time and give a caveman a modern day Volkswagon. It'll teach him the wheel, and he might even figure out concepts like a door and hinges. Is he going to be able to build a car without the appropriate knowledge of technology, chemisty and physics. Not a chance. A working device is enormously different to a blueprint, and to suggest otherwise is absurd.
[/quote]

Then the whole Crucible is absurd. This races are not caveman in relation to the Reapers. They have the necessary knowledge, the game stated that imho clearly.



Well as much as I did enjoy our debate, today I am going on a short vacation over the long weekend in my country and afterward I have a lot of work, and other business, to do before the summer vacation begins. So I will not been able to post as regular as I did in the last few days. I hope you enjoyed our discussion as much as I did.   

Modifié par Holger1405, 16 mai 2012 - 04:26 .

[Redbelle]

Paulinesh wrote...

One more to add :-) Throwing Anderson into the ray of light then run until everything explodes and jump onto Normandy at the last second would be nice

Anyway, I enjoyed ME3 and really admire the job done by Bioware!

The best moments from the final part were shooting cans on the roof with Garrus, all the good-bye scenes and destroying Reapers on all of those planets was fun :-)

Thinking back to all the 3 games, I think the best moment......... ok one of many best moments, was in ME2 when you arrive at the citadel and hear a soldier training 2 ship gunners in space warfare physics. "Sir Isaac Newton is the Deadliest SOB in space"!

Having come away from reading a novel series that bases all it's space warfare on physics and hearing those physics reiterated in ME2 helped sell the ME universe.

You can see for yourself:

Modifié par Redbelle, 16 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[Harbinger1985HU]

OK, a fresh opinion and experience. I just finished the game last night. Well, I have to say the whole finale is something I suspected. I'm joking with this between my friends. But how I read posts about the endins and choic/not choice/force player, etc stuff. Nobody talk about that short epilogue after the credits!

I'm more interested that Stargazer and the boy. Who are they? Where and when they are?
The game possibly ending I'm already predicted after Thessia and before the assault against TIM's base. Oh, the Reaper on Rannoch also give a few hints.
Oh, and I choosed the third solution. I don't check yet the other, maybe with another characters. And that ending is very similar to Beast Machines Transformers or Matrix trilogy. At least my choice.

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Holger1405


My point is that given that this is what the reapers have been doing with organic life, Shepard wouldn't be convinced their puppet master, the star kid was telling the truth about anything.

Why not if he can destroy them?

You make a lot of references to your own Shepard being meaningful, but so is everyone elses and I really don't think you understand what paragon means.  You say a paragon Shepard, your Shepard probably just used the Geth to gain needed war assets, but that isn't what paragon means.  That's more what a renegade would do.  Paragon means you are caring, positive, and compassionate, moral.  Renegade means you are ruthless, negative, cruel, and merciless.  Only a renegade would just use the geth and not care once it's over and so would have no problem killing them with destroy.  It's out of line with a paragon's character.

I perfectly understand what paragon or renegade means. (And no, I wasn't referring to my Shepard.)
The point I try to make is that there are not only full bar paragon's or full bar renegade. A example (this time from my Shepard.) I never hit Khalisah al-Jilani, because I never would hit a women, not even in a video game. But I always grilled the gunship mechanic of the Blue Suns before helping Archangel, because it gave me a advantage and this guy was the enemy anyway.
Even someone who is mostly paragon, and cares about the People around him, can have the opinion that the Geth are a threat.
This possibility of choice, to be allowed to have a different opinions, makes Shepard to your Shepard, and this game so great.

[3DandBeyond]

Really people need to go back and see all that has been said by people Shepard comes to respect in order to see what opinions Shepard would form. But, you also need to do it in order to see what motivations there may be for the starkid (reaper commander) to either lie or to be just plain insane.

All 3 choices fit within an evil, reapers win scenario and form less of a galaxy wins one if you look back and see what has been said or done in the games.

Even Destroy follows this reaper win scenario. It's there in Legion's story about the Heretics. The reapers hate the true Geth and want them destroyed. Legion talks about all this in thinly veiled religious terms-Heretics worship The Old Machines and so those that do not are to be destroyed. The reapers tolerate the Heretics because they worship them, but they still think of them as if they were dirt between their reaper toes.

I think the reapers kind of see the geth as pretenders-they were created by organics and I think this is where their true hatred lives. They do not see anything created by organics as valid, even if they utilized some reaper tech to do it. It's an abomination that must be wiped clean and they search for organics that will come to willingly worship them and that can then be assimilated or ascended. Sentient synthetics are challengers.

Since Sovereign stated that synthesis was their goal, and Sovereign was certain of his dominance at the time, so had no reason to lie, ascension most definitely is about ascension, but in order to do that they either have to get Shepard to willingly jump into the green option or keep cleaning the galaxy until they find that advanced civilization that will ascend properly.

Control is a delaying tactic, but one that merely appeals to Shepard in some crazy way-Shepard is led to believe it's possible but then is sent to die. Or was s/he? We see the Reapers move off, the star kid seems to smile and does not disappear as with destroy. This actually could be the choice that he and the reapers want Shepard to make-it may be ascension, Shepard assimilates and does not die, but becomes a part of the Reapers. Synthesis may have been one goal they thought would work for them, Destroy would solve the Geth problem, but Control by someone who could actually assimilate might have been what they wanted all along. They kept going after people that wanted to control them-TIM, Saran, and so on. They were too weak-minded, the kid says TIM couldn't control them because they already controlled him. Shepard is different.

Perhaps since the kid says he's looking for a solution to chaos, having Shepard assimilate or ascend (true ascension) provides the order needed. Much is made of the diversity of human genetics and it may be this was what the kid was after all along.

[Redbelle]

Galvatron the Madman wrote...

OK, a fresh opinion and experience. I just finished the game last night. Well, I have to say the whole finale is something I suspected. I'm joking with this between my friends. But how I read posts about the endins and choic/not choice/force player, etc stuff. Nobody talk about that short epilogue after the credits!

I'm more interested that Stargazer and the boy. Who are they? Where and when they are?
The game possibly ending I'm already predicted after Thessia and before the assault against TIM's base. Oh, the Reaper on Rannoch also give a few hints.
Oh, and I choosed the third solution. I don't check yet the other, maybe with another characters. And that ending is very similar to Beast Machines Transformers or Matrix trilogy. At least my choice.

In answer to the man and kid in the epilogue, The man is voiced by Buzz Aldrin. An astronaught of Apollo 11 and the 2nd man to set foot on the moon.

Mass Effect has always tried to base itself on real science or actual theoretical science to lend credibility to it's self contained universe. Using Buzz at the end, imho, is a love note to the possibilities of what lies out in space should we ever develop the means to leave our solar system.

btw, I say real science but some liberties were taken such as Eezo and biotics. However these liberties are still tied into science theory, e.g. Eezo lowers or raises the mass of an object allowing for high Thrust/Mass ratio to push large objects at high speed using low energy output... etc.

[Thanatos144]

Redbelle wrote...

Galvatron the Madman wrote...

OK, a fresh opinion and experience. I just finished the game last night. Well, I have to say the whole finale is something I suspected. I'm joking with this between my friends. But how I read posts about the endins and choic/not choice/force player, etc stuff. Nobody talk about that short epilogue after the credits!

I'm more interested that Stargazer and the boy. Who are they? Where and when they are?
The game possibly ending I'm already predicted after Thessia and before the assault against TIM's base. Oh, the Reaper on Rannoch also give a few hints.
Oh, and I choosed the third solution. I don't check yet the other, maybe with another characters. And that ending is very similar to Beast Machines Transformers or Matrix trilogy. At least my choice.

In answer to the man and kid in the epilogue, The man is voiced by Buzz Aldrin. An astronaught of Apollo 11 and the 2nd man to set foot on the moon.

Mass Effect has always tried to base itself on real science or actual theoretical science to lend credibility to it's self contained universe. Using Buzz at the end, imho, is a love note to the possibilities of what lies out in space should we ever develop the means to leave our solar system.

btw, I say real science but some liberties were taken such as Eezo and biotics. However these liberties are still tied into science theory, e.g. Eezo lowers or raises the mass of an object allowing for high Thrust/Mass ratio to push large objects at high speed using low energy output... etc.

It was space magic.......The same with Shepard being brought back to life in ME2....Nothing wrong with it but at least admit what it was.

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...

I perfectly understand what paragon or renegade means. (And no, I wasn't referring to my Shepard.)
The point I try to make is that there are not only full bar paragon's or full bar renegade. A example (this time from my Shepard.) I never hit Khalisah al-Jilani, because I never would hit a women, not even in a video game. But I always grilled the gunship mechanic of the Blue Suns before helping Archangel, because it gave me a advantage and this guy was the enemy anyway.
Even someone who is mostly paragon, and cares about the People around him, can have the opinion that the Geth are a threat.
This possibility of choice, to be allowed to have a different opinions, makes Shepard to your Shepard, and this game so great.

I'm sorry, but at this point this is all starting to make no sense.  You continually say things relate to your paragon Shepard and how it's all possible he doesn't really care for the geth so doesn't mind destroying them, but then you change it around and say it's because of something else or not your Shepard, but the point here is this....

There is no adequate sensible choice that a true Paragon Shepard would make.  And the game does not allow for it at all.  Since the game also allows for players to have a 100% unambiguously Paragon Shepard who totally cares about the Geth and Geth babies and Quarian and Geth happy time, and a Paragon that believed EDI was alive and could love Joker and saw that Joker loved her, then Destroy is not an option.  I can't make this any more clear. 

I'm not talking about the way you played the game or if your Shepard never liked anybody or decided to just let the Reapers take over.  I am talking about the fact, that a player playing this game could make what are 100% moral choices and believe that synthetic sentient self-aware life is just as valid as organic sentient self-aware life and consider that Legion did have a soul.  That player has only nonsense choices among those given.  That player is forced to make a nonsensical choice if that player wants to end the game, or that player will not end the game.

If somehow this still does not make sense then I don't know what to say.   Happy happy joy joy is not Shepard gasping in a pile of rubble and I'm not even going there, lest you again contend that all I want are blue babies.  I want an ending.  I want context that fits in not only with my Shepard, but with the Shepard that everyone out there has.  The ending is ambiguous to a fault, offers no context as to why this all happened within what we have been shown throughout 3 games, except for one minor codex entry about beings of light.  They scrapped the Dark Energy ending because they had a hissy fit over some leaked info about it and so now they've given us an ending they don't want us to understand or they want us to have to imagine so we can fill in gaps.

The fact that we all are subject to 3 ending types with cookie cutter cutscenes in different colors and yet you could have played a renegade/paragon and I could have played a total paragon means we are forced into nonsensical choices. 

Please do not make huge long quotation posts that include all this.  You disagree with me, because you will not even try to understand.  I don't require any answers from you on this.  And people really don't want to read all this.

[luke2135]

I've collected my ideas about how Mass Effect 3 should have ended:

- Option to choose between flowing with the wave (like we do now) as a Systems Alliance soldier or we take control as a real Spectre who united the galaxy against the Reapers
- Option to get a krogan squad member. I can understand why Wrex/Wreav not available but what about Grunt? Why does not he want to be in the thick of war with his former battle master?
- Option to get another geth after Legion dies. I'd like to have a Geth Prime squad member...
- When we hear what is Anderson's plan option to say: "With all due respect, sir, that's bulls*t not a plan." (Only Alliance soldiers take part in the action, with minimal equipment, not counting the supposedly heavy losses.)
- Further on this branch: option to send Aria's troops into battle if we recruited them. Maybe like we did in Mass Effect 2 just this time we have to deploy whole units instead single characters in correct places to succeed.
- If Jack's students are still alive because we didn't send them into the front lines option to send them to protect the Makos.
- If we upgraded the geth to fully evolved AIs and Tali told us that they can upload themselves into quarians' enviro-suits to simulate virus infections option to ask the geth to create a virus which can disable/override the Reapers. They have the computing power and the Reaper code to achive this. Even if the Reapers can counteract this virus deploying it in the right time and using the orbital bombardment technique just like we did on Rannoch we could destroy many of them.
- Get the heavy weapons back into the game just like they were in Mass Effect 2. We are at a f.... war, here.
- Option to upgrade the fleets we recruit with Thanix cannon, heavy ship armor and multicore shielding. Just to even the odds against a superior enemy. (OK, Mass Effect Wiki claims this cannon is spread among the fleets in 2186 but I haven't seen it.)
- If we talk enough with EDI option to ask her to develop a new, poweful space tactic against the Reapers. I'm thinking about the Death Star's beam-collecting technique. For example five ships gather their Thanix cannon's power and the sixth fires from the centre. I bet a Reaper would fry if hit by a beam that strong.
- Since we can't win this war under normal circumstances at the final mission gather all our squadmates and command all of them to attack. It would be much better even if we have direct control on two of them like any other time. Right now all the other squad members just wait at the camp and see what a minimal (remember, Anderson sent very few soldiers, and most of them were shot down) strike force can achive.
- Option to ask Kasumi to sneak into the Citadel (and bring some medigel) while we play with the Reaper who easily kills anything that tries to reach the beam)
- Option to reject the ghost kid's concept, ask Kasumi/EDI/millions of geth AIs to crack everything in the centre of the Citadel and gain control over the Reapers. After that command them to self destruct/kill each other/simply disable.

Well, imho this is how a legendary game should have ended.

Modifié par luke2135, 16 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[BlueStorm83]

     There was no Space Magic in bringing Shepard back in Mass Effect 2.  He never actually fell from orbit onto that planet, he just suffocated in space.  He didn't suffer (as much) explosive decompression since his suit was only breached, not actually gone.  Without an atmosphere or bacteria in space, his body would have been REMARKABLY well preserved, also due to the terrible cold.  Assuming that Cerberus knew where the Normandy was destroyed, they'd only have to comb orbits around that planet until they found him.  If a drowned, frozen body can be resussitated after a few minutes of technical death, then in a High-technology setting, why is Shepard's revival magical?  This idea was already proposed in 3001: The Final Odyssey, one of the sequels to the original 2001.  In that, poor dead Frank Poole was recovered from space and revived 1000 years later after his death.  Not much happens to a body in a space suit in space, provided the suit is breached.

     Also, already happened here on Earth in reality, a Russian woman had an aneurism in her brain that would kill her.  The only option was an incredibly drastic surgery: her body temperature would be lowered to near freezing.  Then all her blood was drained.  The now empty aneutrism was then removed in a lengthy (4 hours, I believe) brain operation, after which she was patched up, had her warmed blood returned to her body, and revived.  That's factual, you can research it if you want.

     Biotics seem magical, but rather they're the combination of Element Zero nodules formed in the body due to pre-natal exposure (USUALLY FATAL!) which are then activated via electrical impulses induced by the neurological implants (Kaiden has a crappy L2 that gives him migraines.)  Sure, that's not hard science, but it is plausible under the laws of physics as set forward by the game.

     Oh, also, I wanted to ask this:  When we enter the conduit, and get to the "citadel" in the end there, did anyone get a good look at all the bodies?  Because I tried to shoot the Keepers (never trusted those abominations) and then looked at the bodies.  They seemed like crash-test dummies.  Like, I can't recall seeing any distinguishing features, just blank, uniform faces.  That was what first led me to think that none of it might be real.  And also it doesn't fit with what we were told about the Reapers taking humans, live and dead, into the citadel for processing.  Why heap the dead, and right by the entrance?  We were already told that Reaper processing facilities are designed to keep new subjects away from the carnage, to keep them docile.

     Yeah, honestly, no matter what happens, I'm not going to believe the ending was real.  Indoc Theory forever.

[Redbelle]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Galvatron the Madman wrote...

OK, a fresh opinion and experience. I just finished the game last night. Well, I have to say the whole finale is something I suspected. I'm joking with this between my friends. But how I read posts about the endins and choic/not choice/force player, etc stuff. Nobody talk about that short epilogue after the credits!

I'm more interested that Stargazer and the boy. Who are they? Where and when they are?
The game possibly ending I'm already predicted after Thessia and before the assault against TIM's base. Oh, the Reaper on Rannoch also give a few hints.
Oh, and I choosed the third solution. I don't check yet the other, maybe with another characters. And that ending is very similar to Beast Machines Transformers or Matrix trilogy. At least my choice.

In answer to the man and kid in the epilogue, The man is voiced by Buzz Aldrin. An astronaught of Apollo 11 and the 2nd man to set foot on the moon.

Mass Effect has always tried to base itself on real science or actual theoretical science to lend credibility to it's self contained universe. Using Buzz at the end, imho, is a love note to the possibilities of what lies out in space should we ever develop the means to leave our solar system.

btw, I say real science but some liberties were taken such as Eezo and biotics. However these liberties are still tied into science theory, e.g. Eezo lowers or raises the mass of an object allowing for high Thrust/Mass ratio to push large objects at high speed using low energy output... etc.

It was space magic.......The same with Shepard being brought back to life in ME2....Nothing wrong with it but at least admit what it was.

If you wish to view Eezo as space magic feel free. The codex entries however has the theory should you wish to view it. Shepard coming back to life however was an exageration of science's capability. I use the word exageration deliberately however as under controlled environments livings organisms have been rendered into a state that could be seen as dead from the outside, only to be brought back to life.

Here's a link that refers to an experiment with living organisms.

http://en.wikipedia....ended_animation

Just to clarify, this is not exactly what happens to Shepard in ME2 but heck, it made for great play that has a foot......... ok a toe....... a toe nail clipping in fact.

[Thanatos144]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

     There was no Space Magic in bringing Shepard back in Mass Effect 2.  He never actually fell from orbit onto that planet, he just suffocated in space.  He didn't suffer (as much) explosive decompression since his suit was only breached, not actually gone.  Without an atmosphere or bacteria in space, his body would have been REMARKABLY well preserved, also due to the terrible cold.  Assuming that Cerberus knew where the Normandy was destroyed, they'd only have to comb orbits around that planet until they found him.  If a drowned, frozen body can be resussitated after a few minutes of technical death, then in a High-technology setting, why is Shepard's revival magical?  This idea was already proposed in 3001: The Final Odyssey, one of the sequels to the original 2001.  In that, poor dead Frank Poole was recovered from space and revived 1000 years later after his death.  Not much happens to a body in a space suit in space, provided the suit is breached.

     Also, already happened here on Earth in reality, a Russian woman had an aneurism in her brain that would kill her.  The only option was an incredibly drastic surgery: her body temperature would be lowered to near freezing.  Then all her blood was drained.  The now empty aneutrism was then removed in a lengthy (4 hours, I believe) brain operation, after which she was patched up, had her warmed blood returned to her body, and revived.  That's factual, you can research it if you want.

     Biotics seem magical, but rather they're the combination of Element Zero nodules formed in the body due to pre-natal exposure (USUALLY FATAL!) which are then activated via electrical impulses induced by the neurological implants (Kaiden has a crappy L2 that gives him migraines.)  Sure, that's not hard science, but it is plausible under the laws of physics as set forward by the game.

     Oh, also, I wanted to ask this:  When we enter the conduit, and get to the "citadel" in the end there, did anyone get a good look at all the bodies?  Because I tried to shoot the Keepers (never trusted those abominations) and then looked at the bodies.  They seemed like crash-test dummies.  Like, I can't recall seeing any distinguishing features, just blank, uniform faces.  That was what first led me to think that none of it might be real.  And also it doesn't fit with what we were told about the Reapers taking humans, live and dead, into the citadel for processing.  Why heap the dead, and right by the entrance?  We were already told that Reaper processing facilities are designed to keep new subjects away from the carnage, to keep them docile.

     Yeah, honestly, no matter what happens, I'm not going to believe the ending was real.  Indoc Theory forever.

Um You see the flaming streak Shepard causes falling to the planet.....They even tell you they find the body on the planet.

[Redbelle]

Thanatos144 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

     There was no Space Magic in bringing Shepard back in Mass Effect 2.  He never actually fell from orbit onto that planet, he just suffocated in space.  He didn't suffer (as much) explosive decompression since his suit was only breached, not actually gone.  Without an atmosphere or bacteria in space, his body would have been REMARKABLY well preserved, also due to the terrible cold.  Assuming that Cerberus knew where the Normandy was destroyed, they'd only have to comb orbits around that planet until they found him.  If a drowned, frozen body can be resussitated after a few minutes of technical death, then in a High-technology setting, why is Shepard's revival magical?  This idea was already proposed in 3001: The Final Odyssey, one of the sequels to the original 2001.  In that, poor dead Frank Poole was recovered from space and revived 1000 years later after his death.  Not much happens to a body in a space suit in space, provided the suit is breached.

     Also, already happened here on Earth in reality, a Russian woman had an aneurism in her brain that would kill her.  The only option was an incredibly drastic surgery: her body temperature would be lowered to near freezing.  Then all her blood was drained.  The now empty aneutrism was then removed in a lengthy (4 hours, I believe) brain operation, after which she was patched up, had her warmed blood returned to her body, and revived.  That's factual, you can research it if you want.

     Biotics seem magical, but rather they're the combination of Element Zero nodules formed in the body due to pre-natal exposure (USUALLY FATAL!) which are then activated via electrical impulses induced by the neurological implants (Kaiden has a crappy L2 that gives him migraines.)  Sure, that's not hard science, but it is plausible under the laws of physics as set forward by the game.

     Oh, also, I wanted to ask this:  When we enter the conduit, and get to the "citadel" in the end there, did anyone get a good look at all the bodies?  Because I tried to shoot the Keepers (never trusted those abominations) and then looked at the bodies.  They seemed like crash-test dummies.  Like, I can't recall seeing any distinguishing features, just blank, uniform faces.  That was what first led me to think that none of it might be real.  And also it doesn't fit with what we were told about the Reapers taking humans, live and dead, into the citadel for processing.  Why heap the dead, and right by the entrance?  We were already told that Reaper processing facilities are designed to keep new subjects away from the carnage, to keep them docile.

     Yeah, honestly, no matter what happens, I'm not going to believe the ending was real.  Indoc Theory forever.

Um You see the flaming streak Shepard causes falling to the planet.....They even tell you they find the body on the planet.

Before entering the conduit I think the bodies were 2 models of Ash and Kaidens old armours from  ME 1 and 2.

[BlueStorm83]

     They did say they found him ON the planet?  Dammit, then they jumped the shark.

     And no, not the bodies before the conduit, the bodies in the red crawlspace when you get to the Conduit.  They were all un-articulated, I'd say.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83, I think there's a whole other controversy about the bodies there and before the conduit. They are 2D, like wallpaper in many places and people wondered just why then put them there. I did notice something similar in ME1, at Noveria I think. There's a dead Salarian that I thought was some kind of poster that had fallen on the ground until there was mention of him dying.  He was kind of flat, but thick if that makes sense-he had no 3D about him.

I think there is inconsistency throughout the 3 games-it's been said and shown in places. But, space magic can be used like artistic license (don't confuse this with this ending), in helping to explain things that move a story forward. They are not unbelievable in the same sense as the ending and the star kid are. Artistic license is what allows people to just accept that everyone in the galaxy all understands what everyone else says. We accept that there might logically be a way for this to happen, just as there are explosion sound simulators that exist.

Space magic is like that, used in small parts to just do something without taking up half a game to explain it all. It's stuff you really don't want to be added in because it adds nothing much to the story.

But, there are some discrepancies about Shepard's body-easily explained. You can't seriously on the one hand state that it fell burning through the planet's atmosphere and then landed on the planet. If it burned in the atmosphere, it would have vaporized. In order for it to arrive planetside intact, it could not have been burning up in the atmosphere. A likely scenario is that the planet was a low atmosphere one that provided little resistance against any space debris that hit it, but that contained enough pull to drag it down to the planet. We don't know, aren't told all the specifics, but in order to move the story forward and allow Shepard to return, the body was found and enough of it was intact to be re-created.

Cerberus had advanced genetic facilities and in the realm of Science Fiction there is the hypothesis that even a single viable cell with DNA could be re-grown to form a whole body. Organs are created from cells that are told what they need to become. Science, real science has even understood this and is working toward this end. 

http://www.boston.co..._grow_your_own/

The cutscene shows Shepard's heart growing back and it basically shows Shepard's body as a lot of sludge. But Science Fiction has answered that and Science is working on it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 16 mai 2012 - 05:58 .

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

     They did say they found him ON the planet?  Dammit, then they jumped the shark.

     And no, not the bodies before the conduit, the bodies in the red crawlspace when you get to the Conduit.  They were all un-articulated, I'd say.

Gotta go so a few quick points about finding Shep on a planet.

Atmospheric friction only burns things that enter at high speed as deceleration occurs from that friction.

The planet could have been a low atmoshere planet. If it was the same as the Normandy crash site then I remember Shep in his breather helmet.

Haven't time to form an opinion so thought I'd throw in some food for thought.

[LiarasShield]

Well this is my new thread that I have made similar to this thread but it being more of a is anyone really listening thread


http://social.biowar.../index/12087176

[Paulinesh]

Redbelle wrote...

Thinking back to all the 3 games, I think the best moment......... ok one of many best moments, was in ME2 when you arrive at the citadel and hear a soldier training 2 ship gunners in space warfare physics. "Sir Isaac Newton is the Deadliest SOB in space"!

Having come away from reading a novel series that bases all it's space warfare on physics and hearing those physics reiterated in ME2 helped sell the ME universe.

You can see for yourself:

That's perfect! If I look back to all the 3 games, the funniest moments will be from ME2. Mordin alone is such a cutie with his songs and advice!