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[Malditor]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Malditor wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

he is the creator of the reapers who have been destroying and harvesting and mutating organic like for thousands or millions of years how in hells glorious name can you see this as not being evil?

Not to get into a religious argument, but the same could be said of any "god" that allows multitudes to be murdered and yet saves others. The being isn't necessarily doing anything out of evil intent, but only acting on what it believes logical or the best path to preserve future life. When faced with a person that defies the logic it has followed all along it is forced to change it's path, and putting the choice to the only one who's been able to withstand all the obsticles placed before him/her.

Except that “god” is not the one doing the murdering

Technically, the catalyst isn't murdering anyone either.

Technically?...Last time I checked he/it (whatever) was the one who created the reapers for specific mission of controlling the chaos of organic life by comitting genocide on them every 50K years.

By technically, I mean the Catalyst isn't "physically" out there killing beings itself. You don't see a scene where the Catalyst and wiping out troops on the battlefield. But of course, the reapers are doing it, and it did create them.

[LiarasShield]

yes The catalyst is mass effects very own hitler

[daveyeisley]

Malditor wrote...

Actually, I've been the one who's open minded here.

If this were true, your comments and tone would reflect it. They do not. Tell us another one, Mr. Nixon.

I didn't think there was any reason to dislike the endings to begin with, because they did, in fact, line up with my way of thinking. I do now understand the reason for some people to be unhappy with the ending. However, I will never agree that it is right and fair to hold up playable content for the EC because of those not happy with the ending.

You are welcome to your opinion. So are we. Thankfully, Bioware is making an effort to do right by their fans (and that will mean more sales of DLC if they get it right this time).

I daresay, if you were in charge, Bioware would likely end up out of business

If there wasn't money involved, and all of this was free, I would agree with you.

You, on the other hand seem to think that nothing matters unless you get a satisfactory ending, regardless of whether others did and would like more content to enjoy.

And here is how I know your first statement was not true. If you had kept an open mind and read my posts you wouldn't have made this attempt to mischaracterise me and my intentions.

You've already made your judgement. You think we are selfish. You also think what you want is more important. So you are selfish too.

[Benchpress610]

daveyeisley wrote...

Malditor wrote...
However, in order to placate the overly loud minority, all other content is pushed back to give you "closure". I'm sorry, but that is just selfish.

Dude. We paid for this game. We spent our money on it because  it was advertised to us as offering a bunch of stuff we wanted.

We paid just as much money as you did.

Saying we don't deserve to be satisfied with what we paid for just because you want extra content is just as fracking selfish (if not moreso).

On top of that, they just pushed the other DLC back, they didnt cancel it. So you have to wait, just like we do, to get what you want.

The main reason we are discussing this is because the official statements on what Bioware has planned do not line up with what we are upset about.

Your comments make it pretty clear your satisfaction stems from speculation in your head. Good for you. If you had taken the time to not only read, but then also carefully consider the opposing points of view, then I might engage you in a real discussion.

What I have read so far from you is pretty close-minded and judgemental, serving no positive purpose and offering nothing productive to our discussion.

We didn't buy a product so that we would have to imagine a satisfactory conclusion that was advertised for said product.

Very well said. About the " overly loud minority" i would refer him to the prevoiusly posted poll:

Endings suck, we want a brighter one.
91%(66922 votes)

Endings are fine, we just want the Normandy strand on Earth or somewhere near Shepard.
6%(4270 votes)

Fine as it is.
2%(1594 votes) - (+1 mr bubbles)

[LiarasShield]

since he thinks that the monsters that he has made to destroy all of civilization every 50 thousand years is helping us or saving us yeah it has reverse hitler all over it just instead of a perfect race as a excuse it is we just want to save you as being one

[LiarasShield]

yeah I don't support any being or creature that is willing to let mass genocide happen

[Malditor]

LiarasShield wrote...

yes Except the catalyst is more twisted then hitler and more evil because he thinks by destroying thousands or hundreds of civilizations that he is actually saving us bull**** he and his reapers or destroying life whenever they appear they aren't saving or chaning bthe cycle only adding onto the chaos if you support this like I said I would most likely stop you before you caused hundreds or thousands of lives to die

Can't even have a rational conversation at this point because you are taking some crazy leap of logic that because I don't see an imaginary construct as evil that I obviously must think Hitler was awesome. Hitler killed millions because he felt they were inferior and undeserving of life. Because he felt the white race was the only true race. This is despicable and wrong, because nobody is better than anyone else, regardles of race/sex/mental or physical ability. To even implicate I think that is ok is more than insulting. All because I have a different viewpoint of a fictional being's motivation for what it does. And I've been called the closed minded one. It's obvious that any further "discussion" with you is pointless.

[Thanatos144]

daveyeisley wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...


We didn't buy a product so that we would have to imagine a satisfactory conclusion that was advertised for said product.

Because you paid money for a game doesnt mean you get say in  its content.

Guh. Im gonna take the insipid trollbait one last time....

Paying for a game means you get the right to complain when it does not deliver its advertised content. Thats exactly what is going on here, along with thoughtful discussion of the why and how.

By rights, I should start trolling you back for this rubbish... but I'm better than that.

So, please, hit me with your best shot, bubbles.

Tell us all why we are wrong, again.

Tell us we have no right to complain, and that we should stay silent, and be grateful for what we were given.

Tell us all why you, and Malditor, and others who are satsfied with the ending are all more important than us, and your opinions and render ours irrelevant.

Yo dawg, what else? What else?

You got all that was advertized and more......You went past complaining to throwing a tantrum several pages past.

[Malditor]

Benchpress610 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...

Malditor wrote...
However, in order to placate the overly loud minority, all other content is pushed back to give you "closure". I'm sorry, but that is just selfish.

Dude. We paid for this game. We spent our money on it because  it was advertised to us as offering a bunch of stuff we wanted.

We paid just as much money as you did.

Saying we don't deserve to be satisfied with what we paid for just because you want extra content is just as fracking selfish (if not moreso).

On top of that, they just pushed the other DLC back, they didnt cancel it. So you have to wait, just like we do, to get what you want.

The main reason we are discussing this is because the official statements on what Bioware has planned do not line up with what we are upset about.

Your comments make it pretty clear your satisfaction stems from speculation in your head. Good for you. If you had taken the time to not only read, but then also carefully consider the opposing points of view, then I might engage you in a real discussion.

What I have read so far from you is pretty close-minded and judgemental, serving no positive purpose and offering nothing productive to our discussion.

We didn't buy a product so that we would have to imagine a satisfactory conclusion that was advertised for said product.

Very well said. About the " overly loud minority" i would refer him to the prevoiusly posted poll:

Endings suck, we want a brighter one.
91%(66922 votes)

Endings are fine, we just want the Normandy strand on Earth or somewhere near Shepard.
6%(4270 votes)

Fine as it is.
2%(1594 votes) - (+1 mr bubbles)

I suppose that is all the sales of the game? It's always a trend that people unhappy with a game will go online to talk about their displeasure. A better indication of the % of people unhappy would be an ingame survey at the conclusion.

[Thanatos144]

Malditor wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

yes Except the catalyst is more twisted then hitler and more evil because he thinks by destroying thousands or hundreds of civilizations that he is actually saving us bull**** he and his reapers or destroying life whenever they appear they aren't saving or chaning bthe cycle only adding onto the chaos if you support this like I said I would most likely stop you before you caused hundreds or thousands of lives to die

Can't even have a rational conversation at this point because you are taking some crazy leap of logic that because I don't see an imaginary construct as evil that I obviously must think Hitler was awesome. Hitler killed millions because he felt they were inferior and undeserving of life. Because he felt the white race was the only true race. This is despicable and wrong, because nobody is better than anyone else, regardles of race/sex/mental or physical ability. To even implicate I think that is ok is more than insulting. All because I have a different viewpoint of a fictional being's motivation for what it does. And I've been called the closed minded one. It's obvious that any further "discussion" with you is pointless.

Soon if your lucky after they call you a troll over and over for not
seeing things like they do they will give you a stupid name........Definitely if you show that they might be barking up the wrong tree.

[Benchpress610]

[quote]Malditor wrote...

[quote]Benchpress610 wrote...

Technically, the catalyst isn't murdering anyone either.[/quote]
Technically?...Last time I checked he/it (whatever) was the one who created the reapers for specific mission of controlling the chaos of organic life by comitting genocide on them every 50K years.
[/quote]

By technically, I mean the Catalyst isn't "physically" out there killing beings itself. You don't see a scene where the Catalyst and wiping out troops on the battlefield. But of course, the reapers are doing it, and it did create them.[/quote]
Well, glowboy doesn't have a "physical" body (that we know of). He created the reapers to do his dirty work.

Edit: Sorry the quoted didn't come out right, now it looks like you are saying what I said and viceversa. lol

Modifié par Benchpress610, 17 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[Thanatos144]

Time to go get the wife ...See you all.

[BlueStorm83]

Whoa whoa whoa, Maltidor? HITLER killed millions? Did you see him out there, PERSONALLY killing millions??? See what I did there, I used your own argument against you.

The Catalyst
1) admits that it created the reapers
2) called them his solution
3) admitted that he created them for the purpose of harvesting Organics (in the horribly gruesome way that they do).

You're pretty much saying that if I see a problem, then build a bomb, then plant that bomb, and that bomb does EXACTLY what I admitted that I created it for and it kills people, that I am innocent. Are you just another troll?

[Voodoo-j]

Thanatos144 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...

Malditor wrote...
However, in order to placate the overly loud minority, all other content is pushed back to give you "closure". I'm sorry, but that is just selfish.

Dude. We paid for this game. We spent our money on it because  it was advertised to use as offering a bunch of stuff we wanted.

We paid just as much money as you did.

Saying we don't deserve to be satisfied with what we paid for just because you want extra content is just as fracking selfish (if not moreso).

On top of that, they just pushed the other DLC back, they didnt cancel it. So you have to wait, just like we do, to get what you want.

The main reason we are discussing this is because the official statements on what Bioware has planned do not line up with what we are upset about.

Your comments make it pretty clear your satisfaction stems from speculation in your head. Good for you. If you had taken the time to not only read, but then also carefully consider the opposing points of view, then I might enage you in a real discussion.

What I have read so far from you is pretty close-minded and judgemental, serving no positive purpose and offering nothing productive to our discussion.

We didn't buy a product so that we would have to imagine a satisfactory conclusion that was advertised for said product.

Because you paid money for a game doesnt mean you get say in  its content.

Endings suck, we want a brighter one.
91%(66922 votes)

Endings are fine, we just want the Normandy strand on Earth or somewhere near Shepard.
6%(4270 votes)

Fine as it is.
2%(1594 votes)

Im going to say .. they want to sell more than 1594 copies of the next dlc.

[Malditor]

daveyeisley wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Actually, I've been the one who's open minded here.

If this were true, your comments and tone would reflect it. They do not. Tell us another one, Mr. Nixon.

I didn't think there was any reason to dislike the endings to begin with, because they did, in fact, line up with my way of thinking. I do now understand the reason for some people to be unhappy with the ending. However, I will never agree that it is right and fair to hold up playable content for the EC because of those not happy with the ending.

You are welcome to your opinion. So are we. Thankfully, Bioware is making an effort to do right by their fans (and that will mean more sales of DLC if they get it right this time).

I daresay, if you were in charge, Bioware would likely end up out of business

If there wasn't money involved, and all of this was free, I would agree with you.

You, on the other hand seem to think that nothing matters unless you get a satisfactory ending, regardless of whether others did and would like more content to enjoy.

And here is how I know your first statement was not true. If you had kept an open mind and read my posts you wouldn't have made this attempt to mischaracterise me and my intentions.

You've already made your judgement. You think we are selfish. You also think what you want is more important. So you are selfish too.

Selfish? Sure I am, no doubt about that, I want more content to play, but I'm willing to pay for it. I have read several pages of this discussion, however I do not have enough free time to read over 800 pages of comments and replies. Sorry if what I've gotten from you in your recent comments/replies to me isn't indicative of your overall personality/stance on this subject. Perhaps I was off on my comment about that, if so I do apologize. It seems you have had some people who don't believe you have any right to complain at all, which I don't think. Given that, you may have just made a snap judgement of me as well?

[LiarasShield]

The Catalyst is Space hitler because he has created the reapers to harvest and comit mass genocide every 50 thousands years in the sense of yes we are saving you and destroying and just like hitler used the n a z i s and the germans soldiers to kill and purge the jews so is the catalyst using the reapers to destroy organic life and harvest them and destroy their worlds

[LiarasShield]

Don't try to down play it don't try to cover it up with sugar and cotton candy the catalyst is a monsterous dictator using his reapers to say what should be in the galaxy or not

[Voodoo-j]

And yes the % may not be per the total amount of purchases, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

[LiarasShield]

Under the guise of were saving you

[Malditor]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Whoa whoa whoa, Maltidor? HITLER killed millions? Did you see him out there, PERSONALLY killing millions??? See what I did there, I used your own argument against you.

The Catalyst
1) admits that it created the reapers
2) called them his solution
3) admitted that he created them for the purpose of harvesting Organics (in the horribly gruesome way that they do).

You're pretty much saying that if I see a problem, then build a bomb, then plant that bomb, and that bomb does EXACTLY what I admitted that I created it for and it kills people, that I am innocent. Are you just another troll?

Yeah, I see what you did there. Well played. However my point was that Catalyst =/= to Hitler in motivation and therefore that I don't approve of Hitler or what he ORDERED  to be done.

[bayul]

I loved the game. Really. I skipped a work day to play it on day one, because this series is very important to me. Like reading a new Game of Thrones book, it was unacceptable for me to continue living my drone life without knowing what came next in this great saga. Presentation was excellent, loved every moment, accepted the need for dramatic deaths, like Mordin and others. But I detected many plot markers that seemed to have been pushed, despite them being utterly against previous story FACTS. These where seemingly made to economize the story, make it less pliable, less connected to ME1 & 2. Less dependent on the legacy system.

Things that i saw went wrong in the plot and then may have made ME3 hard to re-energize:

Rachni where obliterated, despite the fact they were rebuilding in secret, in preparation for war.They stated "our crescendo will burn the darkness clean"---scratch that says the developing team, burn the whole concept clean instead. Bioware ignored that they had ships (As stated in ME2), and they seem to forgotten to fly out and ask for Sheppard's help the way other races did in exchange for a Rachni fleet support. The story writers suddenly changed the concept and made them "promise to leave our galaxy and never return" (when Sheppard said this in ME3 I gasped for air. NO! NO!!!!). They also fought a firefight scarce singular battle. No drones escaped, no secondary females where bred. NO ONE saw this battle happening. Even though the Krogan where surveying their home-world--a place so obviously conspicuous they shouldn't have been there in the first place---if they wanted to lay low. Rachni produce armies en mass...it was pretty sad to see they were reduced to engineering workers. I would have accepted a DLC to add a more glorious final cleansing of Earth. I dreamed of this crescendo.---Opportunity FAIL

The Catalyst: You create ominous, creepy super-destroyers (reapers), alien in every way, hard to kill, hard to board (indoctrination upon contact) , mysterious in their rationale...total antagonists. And then you design the catalyst, their leader as a human kid---Whut? This was a missed chance to portray the Reapers insect like original form (it took millions of human corpses to make a human looking reaper--they must look insectoid in their original biological form)...but more than that, it scratched the concept that reapers where nations of personalities, independent, without weakness. No weakness but the citadel.Now they were controlled, Owned by a non combat space ark, the Citadel. A Citadel that was warped out of nowhere without a major battle without the drama of it's murdered citizens to back the event up.---What sovereign died to do in a great space battle of desperate odds, just happened. JUST HAPPENED, out of camera.In seemingly minutes. I would have expected the fleet battle to happen in the Widow nebula, battling desperate reapers that suddenly realize their imminent destruction thanks to a Cerberus warning. Upon victory, Mankind would have to test out it's mysterious super weapon...for good or Ill.

And for the ending: Why give us nonsensical, story breaking, galaxy screwing, energy rainbow ending if you wanted a dark, problematic conclusion in order to open up opportunities for a new saga?

Why not grant the audience a cost laden victory and make the reapers retreat temporarily? With living Reapers hidden in the stars, the galaxy will never be safe. Even the debris of their fallen would be problematic, indoctrination problems would arise in every world attacked by them. A universe of problems, the perfect birthing place for a new generation of heroes and ME plots.

And ending the game would unlock endless battles in multiplayer, with diverse enemies vying for control of all that remains? Without Sheppard to back up peace, the Krogan go rogue. The Rachni young Queens rebel.The reapers continue their attacks from safety, and using their Cerberus pawns, they continue to harvest humanity and lessening their mark on the "freed galaxy".Freed by Cerberus intrusion, Yahg escapees rush to their world to rally their clans for covert attacks on the weakened systems....the possibilities could have been endless.This would have made it easier to compose weekend events.

BUT WHY THIS?

WHY?

[Malditor]

Voodoo-j wrote...

And yes the % may not be per the total amount of purchases, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I imagine they would sell more than the 1594 you say. I can't be positive though, as who knows right. But I speculate a dlc sold now would produce more sales than if a the next dlc was sold a month from now. If only because the game is still "fresh" now compared to later. Though with Diablo 3 out and other very nice games releasing it's possible nothing would produce a significant sale of dlc.

[daveyeisley]

Thanatos144 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...


We didn't buy a product so that we would have to imagine a satisfactory conclusion that was advertised for said product.

Because you paid money for a game doesnt mean you get say in  its content.

Guh. Im gonna take the insipid trollbait one last time....

Paying for a game means you get the right to complain when it does not deliver its advertised content. Thats exactly what is going on here, along with thoughtful discussion of the why and how.

By rights, I should start trolling you back for this rubbish... but I'm better than that.

So, please, hit me with your best shot, bubbles.

Tell us all why we are wrong, again.

Tell us we have no right to complain, and that we should stay silent, and be grateful for what we were given.

Tell us all why you, and Malditor, and others who are satsfied with the ending are all more important than us, and your opinions and render ours irrelevant.

Yo dawg, what else? What else?

You got all that was advertized and more......You went past complaining to throwing a tantrum several pages past.

yeah? really? I threw a tantrum? I challenge you to quote said tantrum. LOLZ

What else, dawg? What else?

[Benchpress610]

Malditor wrote...
I suppose that is all the sales of the game? It's always a trend that people unhappy with a game will go online to talk about their displeasure. A better indication of the % of people unhappy would be an ingame survey at the conclusion.

I don’t want to start another sidetrack discussion here, but the fact that most people don’t go to forums and post their opinion doesn’t mean they approve or disapprove. You can assume approval just by silence.
 
This work similar as in political polls where a small sample of the voters is polled and the results are extrapolated. These polls in general are pretty accurate. Granted, in this case the most passionate fans are the ones posting and voting, but it works both ways. There are passionate fans of the ending as well, and they are voting and posting. So this IMO is a pretty good indicator.

[Malditor]

bayul wrote...

I loved the game. Really. I skipped a work day to play it on day one, because this series is very important to me. Like reading a new Game of Thrones book, it was unacceptable for me to continue living my drone life without knowing what came next in this great saga. Presentation was excellent, loved every moment, accepted the need for dramatic deaths, like Mordin and others. But I detected many plot markers that seemed to have been pushed, despite them being utterly against previous story FACTS. These where seemingly made to economize the story, make it less pliable, less connected to ME1 & 2. Less dependent on the legacy system.

Things that i saw went wrong in the plot and then may have made ME3 hard to re-energize:

Rachni where obliterated, despite the fact they were rebuilding in secret, in preparation for war.They stated "our crescendo will burn the darkness clean"---scratch that says the developing team, burn the whole concept clean instead. Bioware ignored that they had ships (As stated in ME2), and they seem to forgotten to fly out and ask for Sheppard's help the way other races did in exchange for a Rachni fleet support. The story writers suddenly changed the concept and made them "promise to leave our galaxy and never return" (when Sheppard said this in ME3 I gasped for air. NO! NO!!!!). They also fought a firefight scarce singular battle. No drones escaped, no secondary females where bred. NO ONE saw this battle happening. Even though the Krogan where surveying their home-world--a place so obviously conspicuous they shouldn't have been there in the first place---if they wanted to lay low. Rachni produce armies en mass...it was pretty sad to see they were reduced to engineering workers. I would have accepted a DLC to add a more glorious final cleansing of Earth. I dreamed of this crescendo.---Opportunity FAIL

The Catalyst: You create ominous, creepy super-destroyers (reapers), alien in every way, hard to kill, hard to board (indoctrination upon contact) , mysterious in their rationale...total antagonists. And then you design the catalyst, their leader as a human kid---Whut? This was a missed chance to portray the Reapers insect like original form (it took millions of human corpses to make a human looking reaper--they must look insectoid in their original biological form)...but more than that, it scratched the concept that reapers where nations of personalities, independent, without weakness. No weakness but the citadel.Now they were controlled, Owned by a non combat space ark, the Citadel. A Citadel that was warped out of nowhere without a major battle without the drama of it's murdered citizens to back the event up.---What sovereign died to do in a great space battle of desperate odds, just happened. JUST HAPPENED, out of camera.In seemingly minutes. I would have expected the fleet battle to happen in the Widow nebula, battling desperate reapers that suddenly realize their imminent destruction thanks to a Cerberus warning. Upon victory, Mankind would have to test out it's mysterious super weapon...for good or Ill.

And for the ending: Why give us nonsensical, story breaking, galaxy screwing, energy rainbow ending if you wanted a dark, problematic conclusion in order to open up opportunities for a new saga?

Why not grant the audience a cost laden victory and make the reapers retreat temporarily? With living Reapers hidden in the stars, the galaxy will never be safe. Even the debris of their fallen would be problematic, indoctrination problems would arise in every world attacked by them. A universe of problems, the perfect birthing place for a new generation of heroes and ME plots.

And ending the game would unlock endless battles in multiplayer, with diverse enemies vying for control of all that remains? Without Sheppard to back up peace, the Krogan go rogue. The Rachni young Queens rebel.The reapers continue their attacks from safety, and using their Cerberus pawns, they continue to harvest humanity and lessening their mark on the "freed galaxy".Freed by Cerberus intrusion, Yahg escapees rush to their world to rally their clans for covert attacks on the weakened systems....the possibilities could have been endless.This would have made it easier to compose weekend events.

BUT WHY THIS?

WHY?

I agree it would have been great if they left things open for more options later. Shoot, I didn't want the series to end at all.