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So, what if all comes to pass and after the EC DLC is released, and Bioware announced, an "Alternative Endings DLC for say $19.90 that will contain a heroic victory, would anyone want to buy this? Am starting to wonder if wasn't the plan all along, because I just can't imagine why they would want ME to end like this.
On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
Débuté par
Chris Priestly
, mars 15 2012 02:55
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#20577
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 05:00
daveyeisley
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- Members
- 204 messages
That last one was probably overly harsh. It was a commentary more on my hopes for what Mass Effect could achieve for the fans, Bioware, and the gaming medium. I've mentioned that before.
I can admit I do honestly appreciate the concept of having a plot twist in a game to elevate the story. I especially like the idea of a twist that incorporates a metaphysical or philosophical "Big Idea", it can truly magnify the scope of a story and make it infinitely more profound.
I think thats what they wanted to do. Make Mass Effect 3 have a twist that turned it into something more than just a war to save the galaxy from certain annihilation. That still would have been epic, but they wanted to go even further... to make the audience contemplate things more challenging and that might be directly relevant to our own future.
They seem to have wanted to break past the outer limits of what the audience might expect.... and leave them awestruck. I respect and applaud the audacity and ambition of that intent.
By comparison, on a smaller scale, I think they nailed the plot twist with KotoR. Wasn't so much metaphysical as it was a nod to the Empire Strikes Back plot twist. It was amazingly well done. One of the only video game plot twists thats ever gotten past me... and man did I feel dumb when Malak taunted me with it.... I so totally should have seen it coming.... but they did it well. They got me.
I wish they had 'gotten' me with the Catalyst in ME3. It just didn't work for me.
I'm still trying to figure out how they might have done glow boy the right way. So far I am feeling like it needed earlier and more frequent, yet subtle foreshadowing. The dreams didn't really do enough in forshadowing the purpose of the cycle, or the final choice. It still would have needed to be subtle, thats the main thing, don't give it away too early.... just put the clues in place.
Maybe we needed some data about pre-reaper civilization. A clue to what happened before the Reapers existed, and maybe a clue about why they came to be. Subtle, mysterious, but indicative of a purpose beyond extermination. Word usage that tied in with statements from sovereign and harbinger. Salvation thru destruction and all that. We needed more clues on how that was meant, and we needed them early, and more often in ME3.
I concede there were some very minor clues, but I contend there werent enough of them, they came too late in the story, and what we had was too subtle... or perhaps there werent enough of them, often enough to reinforce and keep the idea/doubt fresh in our minds.
When the reveal comes, those clues need to resurface in our minds clearly and easily. A recap of the clues is a good idea, too. Thats one thing they did right with the reveal in KotoR.
The reaper on Rannoch did come out and speak directly about the synthetic and organic conflict, and the order vs. chaos concept as well. He was pretty blatant. As subtle as being hit over the head with a hammer. Still it had a bit of mystery, so I bought it.
Yet still, when I get to the end, its like glow boy is throwing me a curveball, but it feels less like I was shocked to learn the truth and more like I was disappointed at how simple the lie was. I felt like it was intended to be challenging, but I grasped it far too easily. It wasn't nearly as complex as past experience seemed to indicate it would be.
I intend this merely as a thought exercise, a brain dump if you will, regarding how we might have more readily accepted the existence glow boy and his purpose, or the purpose of the reapers.
The choice is a separate matter. Needed more development, and definitely needed Shepard to participate more actively. That scene doesn't have a prayer of working without immersive player agency, and that means every player of every version of Shepard needs to have at least one option they can live with.
Otherwise the player will just input a choice to make the game progress without actually feeling like they arrived at a choice. If that happens, the choice is meaningless.
They need information from a source they trust. Tricia Helfer coming in to do VO work is a good sign. Here is to hoping EDI is having some dialogue added to help Shepard analyze his options, as this will lend some credibility and context. Without that, the choice is far less meaningful. Impact all but negated.
Just imagine, if you will, EDI reminding Shepard of their conversation where she concluded that submission is not preferable to extinction. Basically giving Shepard the OK to choose destroy. Imagine Joker frantically arguing against it. Poor fella. Joker is screwed unless Shep chooses synthesis. Either he loses EDI, or he loses Shep. That sucks
So yeah, the kid. The choice.
EMS and all our War Assets also simply must have expanded treatment. While I rate the existing treatment as 'passable', it is definitely a mere shadow of what Bioware is capable of. The following ideas would of course be contingent, where applicable, on Shepard having made the effort or choice required to obtain the listed assets.
Gotta see those Geth Primes and those Rachni tearing ****e up. Some Geth Armatures and Colossi, too.
More Krogan badassery. Physically brutalizing the smaller reaper units, and swarming/overrunning the larger ones. Redundant nervous system enabling them to recover from massive trauma.
More turian large unit tactical maneuvers - maybe a top-down view from a hundred feet up showing a deft and disciplined transition from entrenched defensive formation to a split and hinge-wheeling maneuver utilizing an armored cavalry deployment to smash a reaper flank. The turians moving from their trenches less like individuals, and more as a flowing single unit, with precise timing and coordination to transition to offense mere seconds after the reaper's flank is turned. Hopefully all this extra wordiness paints a decent picture of what I see in my head. The whole sequence would need only be like 10-15 seconds long.
Gotta have some Asari Ambushes. A Salarian recon team to initiate suprise contact with some incendiary devices and then tactically withdraw. The reaper advance on the Salarian's leading them right into Asari sniper fire, and human and Asari biotic artillery.
Harbinger guarding the beam. Codex says it takes 4 dreadnauts minimum to destroy a reaper capital ship. Lets double that for Harby. Lets see two Dreadnauts from each allied Fleet, Asari, Salarian, Human, Turian, Quarian, Geth, Batarian (possibly), and even the Volus Kwunu, plus the Destiny Ascension if Shepard Saved it. They all form up, follow harby, and focus fire - I am sorry.... Harbinger is either toast, beating a tactical retreat, or calling in backup and not shooting at the hammer force trying to get to the beam.
I admit the reaper should totally just shut the damn beam off. So, assuming they do the smart thing when Harbinger gets pwned, now Hammer need to turn it back on. Either they can do it manually from the ground, or they get some kodiaks to do it in space. Can be handled with cutscenes if the sword fleet executes a clever screening action.
Resistance on the outside of the Citadel would be minimal. Beam gets turned on. Hammer ground force meets reaper reinforcements. Casualties ensue. Coats initiates screening action to get shepard and crew to the beam. Beam separates shepard from crew. Blah blah, work it from there.
Shepard doesn't have the assets needed - any one or group of these actions fails, and he loses allied units and maybe even a squadmate.
Wow that was way too long.... sorry for that, thanks if you read it all.
I can admit I do honestly appreciate the concept of having a plot twist in a game to elevate the story. I especially like the idea of a twist that incorporates a metaphysical or philosophical "Big Idea", it can truly magnify the scope of a story and make it infinitely more profound.
I think thats what they wanted to do. Make Mass Effect 3 have a twist that turned it into something more than just a war to save the galaxy from certain annihilation. That still would have been epic, but they wanted to go even further... to make the audience contemplate things more challenging and that might be directly relevant to our own future.
They seem to have wanted to break past the outer limits of what the audience might expect.... and leave them awestruck. I respect and applaud the audacity and ambition of that intent.
By comparison, on a smaller scale, I think they nailed the plot twist with KotoR. Wasn't so much metaphysical as it was a nod to the Empire Strikes Back plot twist. It was amazingly well done. One of the only video game plot twists thats ever gotten past me... and man did I feel dumb when Malak taunted me with it.... I so totally should have seen it coming.... but they did it well. They got me.
I wish they had 'gotten' me with the Catalyst in ME3. It just didn't work for me.
I'm still trying to figure out how they might have done glow boy the right way. So far I am feeling like it needed earlier and more frequent, yet subtle foreshadowing. The dreams didn't really do enough in forshadowing the purpose of the cycle, or the final choice. It still would have needed to be subtle, thats the main thing, don't give it away too early.... just put the clues in place.
Maybe we needed some data about pre-reaper civilization. A clue to what happened before the Reapers existed, and maybe a clue about why they came to be. Subtle, mysterious, but indicative of a purpose beyond extermination. Word usage that tied in with statements from sovereign and harbinger. Salvation thru destruction and all that. We needed more clues on how that was meant, and we needed them early, and more often in ME3.
I concede there were some very minor clues, but I contend there werent enough of them, they came too late in the story, and what we had was too subtle... or perhaps there werent enough of them, often enough to reinforce and keep the idea/doubt fresh in our minds.
When the reveal comes, those clues need to resurface in our minds clearly and easily. A recap of the clues is a good idea, too. Thats one thing they did right with the reveal in KotoR.
The reaper on Rannoch did come out and speak directly about the synthetic and organic conflict, and the order vs. chaos concept as well. He was pretty blatant. As subtle as being hit over the head with a hammer. Still it had a bit of mystery, so I bought it.
Yet still, when I get to the end, its like glow boy is throwing me a curveball, but it feels less like I was shocked to learn the truth and more like I was disappointed at how simple the lie was. I felt like it was intended to be challenging, but I grasped it far too easily. It wasn't nearly as complex as past experience seemed to indicate it would be.
I intend this merely as a thought exercise, a brain dump if you will, regarding how we might have more readily accepted the existence glow boy and his purpose, or the purpose of the reapers.
The choice is a separate matter. Needed more development, and definitely needed Shepard to participate more actively. That scene doesn't have a prayer of working without immersive player agency, and that means every player of every version of Shepard needs to have at least one option they can live with.
Otherwise the player will just input a choice to make the game progress without actually feeling like they arrived at a choice. If that happens, the choice is meaningless.
They need information from a source they trust. Tricia Helfer coming in to do VO work is a good sign. Here is to hoping EDI is having some dialogue added to help Shepard analyze his options, as this will lend some credibility and context. Without that, the choice is far less meaningful. Impact all but negated.
Just imagine, if you will, EDI reminding Shepard of their conversation where she concluded that submission is not preferable to extinction. Basically giving Shepard the OK to choose destroy. Imagine Joker frantically arguing against it. Poor fella. Joker is screwed unless Shep chooses synthesis. Either he loses EDI, or he loses Shep. That sucks
So yeah, the kid. The choice.
EMS and all our War Assets also simply must have expanded treatment. While I rate the existing treatment as 'passable', it is definitely a mere shadow of what Bioware is capable of. The following ideas would of course be contingent, where applicable, on Shepard having made the effort or choice required to obtain the listed assets.
Gotta see those Geth Primes and those Rachni tearing ****e up. Some Geth Armatures and Colossi, too.
More Krogan badassery. Physically brutalizing the smaller reaper units, and swarming/overrunning the larger ones. Redundant nervous system enabling them to recover from massive trauma.
More turian large unit tactical maneuvers - maybe a top-down view from a hundred feet up showing a deft and disciplined transition from entrenched defensive formation to a split and hinge-wheeling maneuver utilizing an armored cavalry deployment to smash a reaper flank. The turians moving from their trenches less like individuals, and more as a flowing single unit, with precise timing and coordination to transition to offense mere seconds after the reaper's flank is turned. Hopefully all this extra wordiness paints a decent picture of what I see in my head. The whole sequence would need only be like 10-15 seconds long.
Gotta have some Asari Ambushes. A Salarian recon team to initiate suprise contact with some incendiary devices and then tactically withdraw. The reaper advance on the Salarian's leading them right into Asari sniper fire, and human and Asari biotic artillery.
Harbinger guarding the beam. Codex says it takes 4 dreadnauts minimum to destroy a reaper capital ship. Lets double that for Harby. Lets see two Dreadnauts from each allied Fleet, Asari, Salarian, Human, Turian, Quarian, Geth, Batarian (possibly), and even the Volus Kwunu, plus the Destiny Ascension if Shepard Saved it. They all form up, follow harby, and focus fire - I am sorry.... Harbinger is either toast, beating a tactical retreat, or calling in backup and not shooting at the hammer force trying to get to the beam.
I admit the reaper should totally just shut the damn beam off. So, assuming they do the smart thing when Harbinger gets pwned, now Hammer need to turn it back on. Either they can do it manually from the ground, or they get some kodiaks to do it in space. Can be handled with cutscenes if the sword fleet executes a clever screening action.
Resistance on the outside of the Citadel would be minimal. Beam gets turned on. Hammer ground force meets reaper reinforcements. Casualties ensue. Coats initiates screening action to get shepard and crew to the beam. Beam separates shepard from crew. Blah blah, work it from there.
Shepard doesn't have the assets needed - any one or group of these actions fails, and he loses allied units and maybe even a squadmate.
Wow that was way too long.... sorry for that, thanks if you read it all.
Modifié par daveyeisley, 18 mai 2012 - 05:04 .
#20578
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 05:15
daveyeisley
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- Members
- 204 messages
It would chafe, wouldn't exactly earn my trust back, but if the DLC was offered, I would wait until there was a clear consumer feedback picture, and if it made good on the promise of a heroic victory, yeah... I would buy it simply because not having that is too painful. Its worth $20 to me to fix this.
In all honesty, I would have paid $80 out of the gate and waited another year if they had taken the time to make such content part of the original release.
In all honesty, I would have paid $80 out of the gate and waited another year if they had taken the time to make such content part of the original release.
#20579
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 07:07
Mandalore007
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- Members
- 21 messages
BlueStorm83 wrote...
--Don't mistake hating - HATING - the ending with hating the game. I loved the game. I was totally psyched when I was charging the conduit. When I got hit by the beam, I was like, "Holy ****, this is getting intense!" When I limped my way past the other soldiers with singular determination, when I took out poor misunderstood Marauder Shields, that was a pretty incredible scene. When I got into the Citadel and it was a charnel house, I was horrified and more determined than ever. Even though the bodies were oddly blank and manequin-like. I was a little suspicious, but was willing to accept that maybe they were, like, halfhusks.
--Then I got to Anderson, and he turned around kinda wonky. The Illusive Man showed up, and I was like, "Wait a second, what's he doing here? Well, maybe he was ON the citadel when he alerted the reapers to our plan, just roll with it." He started making me do things, I was like, "But wait, I thought he didn't put a control chip in. Was there some secret control chip that he didn't even tell Miranda about, to try and be super DUPER sneaky and manipulative? Just roll with it!" And Anderson was like, "Shempard, I can't!" Because he apparently couldn't even finish his sentences. And I got a little, "He can control Anderson too? That doesn't make sense, really. Maybe he'll explain it in the conversation, that he has the power to, like, super-indoctrinate. Maybe Illusive Man is now a mini-reaper, having augmented himself with all that reaper tech he was taking. JUST ROLL WITH IT, ME!" He made me shoot Anderson. Anderson didn't really react. Odd. Still rolling, maybe that's his being controlled. He's so controlled that he can't even FLINCH. Shempard's like, "Dammit, Illusive man, look at yourself in the mirror! You're TOTALLY indoctrinated, dude!" Mr. Man replies, "No way! The horrible evil reaper voices that control my brain explicitly told me that I'm not- aw hell..." Then he takes a Saren. I was a little pleased with this. I thought, "Aw yeah, last time this happened I got a boss fight." But Shempard was still all limpy. And then I smacked a computer and sat to hang with my bro, Andy "The Andersonly" Anderson.
--Pretty cool dialogue scene here. I liked that Anderson was understanding, and just glad that we'd finally won. Shepard turned on the Crucible, and it would make all the problems go away. I was still rolling with it, despite the lack of explanations, the death of a friend, and even the somewhat underwhelming death of an enemy that I actually had some respect for (his real desire to save everyone, at least, underneath the twisted indoctrination.) Hackett's like, "Shepard, I can't pronounce Shempard correctly! Also, you need to do something else. Shemp stumbles forward, can't make it to the console. Then an unexplained Elevator takes him up.
--That jarred me. I was like, "Who turned that on? Is the Council still alive? Maybe Bailey? Even CONRAD?! OMG, did they stage this all for a surprise party for my birthday?!" Nah. It was Starboy, determined to reunite for one final movie sequel to Starboy and the Captain of Outer Space.
--Not gonna once again point out how every single thing from this point onward had no real logical bearing on the story, the personality of the character I'd played, the allies I'd recruited, the fleet fighting just outside, the established use of technologies and game-world physics.
--Then I was sad.
--I'm so very sad about this because I loved every single second before that damn unexplained elevator. The reason this bothers me so much is because it's like the final scene in Romeo and Juliet, where Juliet commits suicide, so Romeo just shrugs and bangs Mercutio. That doesn't happen, BTW. Because it would not follow the story's established purpose. I just want Mass Effect fixed, so people can enjoy 100% of it, not just 99.9%. If it was the first .1% that was utterly garbage and nonsense, that could be excused because it went out on a high note. If you live as a saint for 99 years, then die coked out in bed with seven transgendered hookers, how do you think you'll be remembered? Nothing against the trannies, just saying that would stand out in peoples' minds. Not a, like, whatever you call dudes who hate trannies.
lol well put:lol:
#20580
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 07:26
gyrosp
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- Members
- 45 messages
I have finished ME 3 a few days ago
and although I was aware that the ending is heavily criticised I was really
shocked when I saw it myself. That’s it? Really?
I know nearly everything is still
written about the ending but I’d like to write down my feelings myself.
Bioware promised to make an ending
that answers all questions and that makes sense. Obviously they did not made
this ending.
What annoys me most is this stupid
plot. “We kill you because otherwise you will be killed by other synthetic life”.
Sorry but this is the most annoying plot I could have imagined for ME.
When I saw the ending I remembered a
scene from ME 1 when you talk to the Sovereign for the first time. The reaper
said something like “You can not understand why we have to kill you. It’s
beyond your imagination”. Well with this ending Shepard just could have said
something like “Oh I do, you have to kill us, because otherwise some other synthetics
will kill us, rigt?”. “Oh yes, it’s not that complicated after all.”
And there are so many other annoying things:
The beginning and the ending of ME 1
were great. The beginning and the ending of ME 2 were even greater. The beginning
of ME 3 was worse, the ending even worser. I don’t know what happened during
the development, but something must have gone wrong. ME 3 is still a good game
and I can overlook the beginning but not the ending.
I don’t know if this is just a rumor
but somewhere I’ve read that actually another ending was planed. An ending
focusing on the dark energy. The reaper try to control this energy and prevent
it from destroying the galaxy. That’s the reason why the reaper tried to build
a human reaper. That would also explain why the reaper harvest organic life and
not simply destroy it. That could have been a great ending. If this is not just
a rumor why was this ending finally rejected?
I still hope that Bioware is
bluffing and will release a DLC which proves the indoctrination theory right.
Otherwise Bioware could save the money and the effort and give up the
development of the extended cut because a more visualized ****ty end will just
stay what it is… a ****ty end.
There are so many plot holes that
can’t be fixed with some more cut scenes like the Normandy leaving the sol-system.
Of course you can show some scenes where the Harbinger and other reapers fire
1.000.000 cruise missiles at the Normandy and the only way to survive is to use
a Mass Effect Portal but would this be a satisfying explanation?
Just one more thing. Bioware talked
about being proud of their artistic choices. But what the hell is artistic at
this ending?
I know this post won’t help anybody
but I feel better now
.
and although I was aware that the ending is heavily criticised I was really
shocked when I saw it myself. That’s it? Really?
I know nearly everything is still
written about the ending but I’d like to write down my feelings myself.
Bioware promised to make an ending
that answers all questions and that makes sense. Obviously they did not made
this ending.
What annoys me most is this stupid
plot. “We kill you because otherwise you will be killed by other synthetic life”.
Sorry but this is the most annoying plot I could have imagined for ME.
When I saw the ending I remembered a
scene from ME 1 when you talk to the Sovereign for the first time. The reaper
said something like “You can not understand why we have to kill you. It’s
beyond your imagination”. Well with this ending Shepard just could have said
something like “Oh I do, you have to kill us, because otherwise some other synthetics
will kill us, rigt?”. “Oh yes, it’s not that complicated after all.”
And there are so many other annoying things:
- Shepard made peace between the Geth
and the Quarians and has EDI in his crew. Still you don’t have any options to
tell the catalyst that a peaceful coexistence with synthetic life is possible.
- Why did the reaper built a human reaper?
- Why did the reaper and collectors make genetic experiments?
- Why did the reaper harvest organic life and not simply destroy it?
- Why did the Normandy left the sol-system?
- How did your squad-mates survived
the reaper beam, got back to the Normandy, took a shower and polished their
armor just to leave the crashed Normandy?
- ...
The beginning and the ending of ME 1
were great. The beginning and the ending of ME 2 were even greater. The beginning
of ME 3 was worse, the ending even worser. I don’t know what happened during
the development, but something must have gone wrong. ME 3 is still a good game
and I can overlook the beginning but not the ending.
I don’t know if this is just a rumor
but somewhere I’ve read that actually another ending was planed. An ending
focusing on the dark energy. The reaper try to control this energy and prevent
it from destroying the galaxy. That’s the reason why the reaper tried to build
a human reaper. That would also explain why the reaper harvest organic life and
not simply destroy it. That could have been a great ending. If this is not just
a rumor why was this ending finally rejected?
I still hope that Bioware is
bluffing and will release a DLC which proves the indoctrination theory right.
Otherwise Bioware could save the money and the effort and give up the
development of the extended cut because a more visualized ****ty end will just
stay what it is… a ****ty end.
There are so many plot holes that
can’t be fixed with some more cut scenes like the Normandy leaving the sol-system.
Of course you can show some scenes where the Harbinger and other reapers fire
1.000.000 cruise missiles at the Normandy and the only way to survive is to use
a Mass Effect Portal but would this be a satisfying explanation?
Just one more thing. Bioware talked
about being proud of their artistic choices. But what the hell is artistic at
this ending?
I know this post won’t help anybody
but I feel better now
.
Modifié par gyrosp, 18 mai 2012 - 07:39 .
#20581
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 08:55
Calibisto
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- Members
- 473 messages
I didn't want to write anything about the ending because I feel most have been said already, by people whom put it better than me.
(Like dr. Gray: http://social.biowar...886/13#11470730).
Something however made me decide to write something about the trilogy I loved so much.
Mass Effect 3, while different than the previous parts is a GREAT game. The curing of the Genophage and the sacrifice of Mordin touched me. The whole Galaxy at War feeling the game has impressed me. Bringing peace to the Quarians and Geth made me feel proud. Tali talking about her house on Rannoch made me smile.
And it say it all, that after 30 hours of all these great things, the thing that mostly stands out is how BAD the ending is. Mass Effect 1 and 2 made me restart a second play through immediately to see what happened if I did other choices. The only reason Mass Effect 3 is still in my console is because I like the multi-player. As for the whole mass effect story, I am done with it.
As I said at the beginning, I didn't want to write.
However yesterday I came across this fan-art
http://neehs.deviant...allery/36328521
How can one argue the ending is not bad, that when these pictures manage to inspire more feelings in me then the whole ending has?
If you reader like the ending, then I am happy for you. You got an ending to a great series.
I however didn't get an ending. I got 'Space Magic' instead;
-Plot holes,
-Characters acting against their set persona,
-Ignoring the theme of the series.
Not to mention the ending goes against everything BioWare promised. We wouldn't get choice A/B/C. We would get COMPLETELY different endings based on our choices in ME1 & 2.
Well theoretically they got a point with the first promise, it wasn't A/B/C, it was Red/Blue/Green.
tl;dr
Ending overshadows a great game.
The ending doesn't deliver what was advertised
(Like dr. Gray: http://social.biowar...886/13#11470730).
Something however made me decide to write something about the trilogy I loved so much.
Mass Effect 3, while different than the previous parts is a GREAT game. The curing of the Genophage and the sacrifice of Mordin touched me. The whole Galaxy at War feeling the game has impressed me. Bringing peace to the Quarians and Geth made me feel proud. Tali talking about her house on Rannoch made me smile.
And it say it all, that after 30 hours of all these great things, the thing that mostly stands out is how BAD the ending is. Mass Effect 1 and 2 made me restart a second play through immediately to see what happened if I did other choices. The only reason Mass Effect 3 is still in my console is because I like the multi-player. As for the whole mass effect story, I am done with it.
As I said at the beginning, I didn't want to write.
However yesterday I came across this fan-art
http://neehs.deviant...allery/36328521
How can one argue the ending is not bad, that when these pictures manage to inspire more feelings in me then the whole ending has?
If you reader like the ending, then I am happy for you. You got an ending to a great series.
I however didn't get an ending. I got 'Space Magic' instead;
-Plot holes,
-Characters acting against their set persona,
-Ignoring the theme of the series.
Not to mention the ending goes against everything BioWare promised. We wouldn't get choice A/B/C. We would get COMPLETELY different endings based on our choices in ME1 & 2.
Well theoretically they got a point with the first promise, it wasn't A/B/C, it was Red/Blue/Green.
tl;dr
Ending overshadows a great game.
The ending doesn't deliver what was advertised
#20582
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 09:05
dalethfc
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- Members
- 79 messages
The Ending is similar to Deus-Ex-HR, push 1, 2 or 3, but in that, there is a full and valid reason that makes sense.
Unlike this rubbish for ME3.
Unlike this rubbish for ME3.
#20583
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 09:32
Archonsg
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- 3 560 messages
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
2) Alchera's gravity is also about 20% less than that of Earth's so that might throw our known object falling at for xxx amount of time = xxx amount of meter's traveled. (actual speed will vary) Is 20% less gravitational influence enough to "slow" Shepard's speed on re-entry? I do not know, I am not an astro-physicist but again, until we get better or actual info, we could just use the 20% difference as a direct correlation yes?[/quote]
The Body would bounce off from the atmosphere if it would be much slower, (20000 Km/h was already conservative.) That is independent from the Gravity of the Planet. So no.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]daveyeisley wrote...
@ holger
I am intrigued by your assertion that Shepard's body would 'bounce off' the planet's atmosphere if it was not going fast enough.
Do you have a link to your source for this?
I only ask because in modern spaceflight, the craft follows a re-entry vector that is designed to "glance off" the edge of the atmosphere to *avoid* extra friction as it penetrates. The thrusters are used to align the orbital path with this vector, but gravity does the rest as I understand it.
I am not positive, but I believe the gravity of the planet provides sufficient force to pull and object to its surface, even if the object is travelling a vector that intersects on a shallow angle with the atmosphere (which also reduces the friction created by slowly penetrating to denser layers rather than punching thru directly).
EDIT: Actually, I can see now a scenario where an object caught by the gravity well would "slingshot" around the planet, but still escape orbit, however.... this would have more to do with the object's vector upon contact with the planet's gravity well, the angle would have to be extremely shallow. Greater velocity would actually make it more likely to "slingshot" rather than become a decaying orbit, because the increased velocity would increase momentum, which is needed to escape the gravity well without thrust.
[/quote]
Daveyeisley beat me to it.
Here's a good wiki link
Atmospheric Entry
Depending on angle of attack (vector) on re-entry and speed, having too much speed could cause the object to escape a planet's gravity well, as well as "bounce" off a planet's atmosphere. In this case Alchera's -20% that of Earth grav would indicate that Shepard should not be travelling that much faster.
Good call though.
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
3) Surface temperature of Alcheara is -22c, which means that the atmospheric temperature is again in correlation, lower and might again act as yet another buffer in keeping Shepard's body being burned away in re-entry. [/quote]
Temperature in an atmosphere depends on many different factors. But on the point where the Atmosphere begins it has almost the terms of Space.
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
4) Shepard may be dead, but he is still fully armored and aside from what seems like a seals breach, is still fully functional. kinetic shields and material meant to withstand EVA work (space absolute temperatures range quite high)
temperatures and variations in space and thus it its conceivable that the armor has some way to keep temperatures on the inside a constant (or at least as best is its able to) near survivable conditions.
an excerpt if you will :
So, (to finally get to the answer!) temperatures vary so much in the absence of air because there is nothing to reflect, absorb, and scatter the entering heat and nothing to hold in the heat on the "night" side. This is why the day/night temperature of the Earth in the northern US during a typical June is 21°C / 11°C (70°F / 52°F), whereas that on the Moon (located at the same distance from the Sun as the Earth but lacking an atmosphere) is 115°C / -180°C (240°F / -290°F).
What all this means is that given all this, are asked to believe that it is possible for a body still encased in armor to re-enter such a planet and not have said body incinerated.
I thought it to be plausible.[/quote]
True, space absolute temperatures range is quite high, but the entry temperatures of Shepard's body must be approximately 2000 degree Celsius (3632 degree Fahrenheit).
The shields wouldn't withstand the heat for more than a few seconds, and the suite was already cracked and did not provide heat shield capabilities. (how long can you resist a Flamethrower attack in game? 4 - 5 seconds at best.)
And we note even talked about pressure and the fact that the residual oxygen in Shepard's body would be a good oxidant.
imho, under this circumstances, nothing off Shepard's body would reach the ground.
[/quote]
[/quote]
You are right in a sense.
However, temperatures in "true" space would depend a lot on how close you are to the planet's sun and how much energy is being reflected off an object, in this case Shepard in his/her armor and the composition / material of said armor.
Which is why that range is so high. Absolute "zero" in deep space with little or no direct sun reflection = 2.7 kevlin (-270.7 deg celsius) to as high several thousand degrees if you are near a sun's corona.
However, the planet itself gives us that clue.
It has a surface temperature of -22 deg celsius which would indicate that Alchera's sun isn't that near nor its energy output in space bring about such a drastic rise in temperature, say that of if Shepard was at Venus.
So I think my original assessment is right, that in this case, Shepard's armor and shields would be sufficient to withstand a short jaunt in space.
Heat on Re-entry though, presents another problem.
Do note, I am not debating whether or not Shepard's body is damaged. I am just concerned at the moment if its plausible to have that body intact, well as intact as a body can be considering terminal velocity impact once it clears atmosphere.
Here is one problem I am not sure how to explain with just physics or facts available, that is, heat damage.
I do think that re-entry with the body intact is possible but how to keep heat damage from affecting the brain is another thing altogether.
I can only think of ONE possible solution and this unfortunately relies on luck. (as much as I hate that)
If Shepard falls into atmosphere in a certain position tumbling as he did but somehow in doing so, or somehow level out so that his body shields his head, that might work.
Think of how our own Space shuttle uses its belly "armor" (ceramic shields) to absorb and deflect heat away from the cockpit where our astronauts are. This might work, but like I said, needs that bit of "luck" as well as acceptance from the player to accept that Shepard was that lucky.
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
As I mentioned in that other post above (the one with the picture of the Shepard's Xray-ed skeleton, page 815 ) it's not that they are asking us to remove ALL disbelieve, or that there isn't any suspension at all.
In this fictional set piece, applying what is termed the "socratic exercise" if given all the above, given the rules of physics, could this happen? That is science fiction. It asks, what if ... within the realms of reality can something happen.
Lastly, does the above look like I am "spinning" things, considering the use of the socratic exercise in determining whether or not this particular event is plausible?[/quote]
Of course you are right, and no you don't "spinning" anything, it's just an interesting debate.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Thank you.
And that is why I am in this discussion. You raise some rather good points and I did have to go and research abit to make sure my theory would be sound.
I want to point out that I do too, understand that all this, is just an excercise of the socratic question "what if...", and as such, there is no "right" or "wrong" answers, it all depends on the "if" of the "what if...."
Thus it could be very possible that while exploring this, we do find that hey, Bioware DID screw up ...again.
But given how close to plausible this proved to be, I think a little small mistake isn't all that bad.
Well, not as bad as "shockwave of green light washes over you and suddenly, you have circuitry grafted into your very flesh, and with circuitry, which implies electrical discharges, which means no more baths or you short circuit yourself!
Well maybe not.
But hey, I bet it would be interesting to see if touch = exchange of data.
New ways to molest someone?
Now that's space magic!
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
2) Alchera's gravity is also about 20% less than that of Earth's so that might throw our known object falling at for xxx amount of time = xxx amount of meter's traveled. (actual speed will vary) Is 20% less gravitational influence enough to "slow" Shepard's speed on re-entry? I do not know, I am not an astro-physicist but again, until we get better or actual info, we could just use the 20% difference as a direct correlation yes?[/quote]
The Body would bounce off from the atmosphere if it would be much slower, (20000 Km/h was already conservative.) That is independent from the Gravity of the Planet. So no.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]daveyeisley wrote...
@ holger
I am intrigued by your assertion that Shepard's body would 'bounce off' the planet's atmosphere if it was not going fast enough.
Do you have a link to your source for this?
I only ask because in modern spaceflight, the craft follows a re-entry vector that is designed to "glance off" the edge of the atmosphere to *avoid* extra friction as it penetrates. The thrusters are used to align the orbital path with this vector, but gravity does the rest as I understand it.
I am not positive, but I believe the gravity of the planet provides sufficient force to pull and object to its surface, even if the object is travelling a vector that intersects on a shallow angle with the atmosphere (which also reduces the friction created by slowly penetrating to denser layers rather than punching thru directly).
EDIT: Actually, I can see now a scenario where an object caught by the gravity well would "slingshot" around the planet, but still escape orbit, however.... this would have more to do with the object's vector upon contact with the planet's gravity well, the angle would have to be extremely shallow. Greater velocity would actually make it more likely to "slingshot" rather than become a decaying orbit, because the increased velocity would increase momentum, which is needed to escape the gravity well without thrust.
[/quote]
Daveyeisley beat me to it.
Here's a good wiki link
Atmospheric Entry
Depending on angle of attack (vector) on re-entry and speed, having too much speed could cause the object to escape a planet's gravity well, as well as "bounce" off a planet's atmosphere. In this case Alchera's -20% that of Earth grav would indicate that Shepard should not be travelling that much faster.
Good call though.
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
3) Surface temperature of Alcheara is -22c, which means that the atmospheric temperature is again in correlation, lower and might again act as yet another buffer in keeping Shepard's body being burned away in re-entry. [/quote]
Temperature in an atmosphere depends on many different factors. But on the point where the Atmosphere begins it has almost the terms of Space.
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
4) Shepard may be dead, but he is still fully armored and aside from what seems like a seals breach, is still fully functional. kinetic shields and material meant to withstand EVA work (space absolute temperatures range quite high)
temperatures and variations in space and thus it its conceivable that the armor has some way to keep temperatures on the inside a constant (or at least as best is its able to) near survivable conditions.
an excerpt if you will :
So, (to finally get to the answer!) temperatures vary so much in the absence of air because there is nothing to reflect, absorb, and scatter the entering heat and nothing to hold in the heat on the "night" side. This is why the day/night temperature of the Earth in the northern US during a typical June is 21°C / 11°C (70°F / 52°F), whereas that on the Moon (located at the same distance from the Sun as the Earth but lacking an atmosphere) is 115°C / -180°C (240°F / -290°F).
What all this means is that given all this, are asked to believe that it is possible for a body still encased in armor to re-enter such a planet and not have said body incinerated.
I thought it to be plausible.[/quote]
True, space absolute temperatures range is quite high, but the entry temperatures of Shepard's body must be approximately 2000 degree Celsius (3632 degree Fahrenheit).
The shields wouldn't withstand the heat for more than a few seconds, and the suite was already cracked and did not provide heat shield capabilities. (how long can you resist a Flamethrower attack in game? 4 - 5 seconds at best.)
And we note even talked about pressure and the fact that the residual oxygen in Shepard's body would be a good oxidant.
imho, under this circumstances, nothing off Shepard's body would reach the ground.
[/quote]
[/quote]
You are right in a sense.
However, temperatures in "true" space would depend a lot on how close you are to the planet's sun and how much energy is being reflected off an object, in this case Shepard in his/her armor and the composition / material of said armor.
Which is why that range is so high. Absolute "zero" in deep space with little or no direct sun reflection = 2.7 kevlin (-270.7 deg celsius) to as high several thousand degrees if you are near a sun's corona.
However, the planet itself gives us that clue.
It has a surface temperature of -22 deg celsius which would indicate that Alchera's sun isn't that near nor its energy output in space bring about such a drastic rise in temperature, say that of if Shepard was at Venus.
So I think my original assessment is right, that in this case, Shepard's armor and shields would be sufficient to withstand a short jaunt in space.
Heat on Re-entry though, presents another problem.
Do note, I am not debating whether or not Shepard's body is damaged. I am just concerned at the moment if its plausible to have that body intact, well as intact as a body can be considering terminal velocity impact once it clears atmosphere.
Here is one problem I am not sure how to explain with just physics or facts available, that is, heat damage.
I do think that re-entry with the body intact is possible but how to keep heat damage from affecting the brain is another thing altogether.
I can only think of ONE possible solution and this unfortunately relies on luck. (as much as I hate that)
If Shepard falls into atmosphere in a certain position tumbling as he did but somehow in doing so, or somehow level out so that his body shields his head, that might work.
Think of how our own Space shuttle uses its belly "armor" (ceramic shields) to absorb and deflect heat away from the cockpit where our astronauts are. This might work, but like I said, needs that bit of "luck" as well as acceptance from the player to accept that Shepard was that lucky.
[quote]Holger1405 wrote...
[quote]Archonsg wrote...
As I mentioned in that other post above (the one with the picture of the Shepard's Xray-ed skeleton, page 815 ) it's not that they are asking us to remove ALL disbelieve, or that there isn't any suspension at all.
In this fictional set piece, applying what is termed the "socratic exercise" if given all the above, given the rules of physics, could this happen? That is science fiction. It asks, what if ... within the realms of reality can something happen.
Lastly, does the above look like I am "spinning" things, considering the use of the socratic exercise in determining whether or not this particular event is plausible?[/quote]
Of course you are right, and no you don't "spinning" anything, it's just an interesting debate.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Thank you.
And that is why I am in this discussion. You raise some rather good points and I did have to go and research abit to make sure my theory would be sound.
I want to point out that I do too, understand that all this, is just an excercise of the socratic question "what if...", and as such, there is no "right" or "wrong" answers, it all depends on the "if" of the "what if...."
Thus it could be very possible that while exploring this, we do find that hey, Bioware DID screw up ...again.
But given how close to plausible this proved to be, I think a little small mistake isn't all that bad.
Well, not as bad as "shockwave of green light washes over you and suddenly, you have circuitry grafted into your very flesh, and with circuitry, which implies electrical discharges, which means no more baths or you short circuit yourself!
Well maybe not.
But hey, I bet it would be interesting to see if touch = exchange of data.
New ways to molest someone?
Now that's space magic!
Modifié par Archonsg, 18 mai 2012 - 09:50 .
#20584
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 09:59
Holger1405
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daveyeisley wrote...
@ holger
I am intrigued by your assertion that Shepard's body would 'bounce off' the planet's atmosphere if it was not going fast enough.
Do you have a link to your source for this?
I only ask because in modern spaceflight, the craft follows a re-entry vector that is designed to "glance off" the edge of the atmosphere to *avoid* extra friction as it penetrates. The thrusters are used to align the orbital path with this vector, but gravity does the rest as I understand it.
I am not positive, but I believe the gravity of the planet provides sufficient force to pull and object to its surface, even if the object is travelling a vector that intersects on a shallow angle with the atmosphere (which also reduces the friction created by slowly penetrating to denser layers rather than punching thru directly).
EDIT: Actually, I can see now a scenario where an object caught by the gravity well would "slingshot" around the planet, but still escape orbit, however.... this would have more to do with the object's vector upon contact with the planet's gravity well, the angle would have to be extremely shallow. Greater velocity would actually make it more likely to "slingshot" rather than become a decaying orbit, because the increased velocity would increase momentum, which is needed to escape the gravity well without thrust.
Actually 'I can't, didn't looked this up, it comes from old Knowledge stored in regions of my brain long not used... <_<
But maybe I can explain.
The "bounce off" effect is of course related to the entry angel.
Example Space Shuttle.
The orbital velocity of the Space Shuttle is, if I remember correctly, about 28000 Km/h (17400 mph)
The re-entry angle is 6 - 7 %
The re-entry velocity is about 27000 Km/h (17,000 mph)
So why didn't they slow done the Shuttle even more? They have not enough energy (fuel) to slow it down significantly, and because of the given re-entry angel, if they would decelerate it to, let's say 25000 Km/h, the Shuttle wouldn't have enough speed to "penetrate" the atmosphere and would "bounce of" back into the orbit.
You can compare this to throwing a Stone over a water surface. If you get the angel and velocity right (in our case wrong) it will bounce of several times until it has lost the necessary speed, and ultimately sink.
That didn't mean it would escape Orbit, on the next circulation it would be re-enter the atmosphere.
Shepard body is not a Space Shuttle, it has significant less mass and, of course, no controls.
(I have no data regarding a human body entering an atmosphere, so this has his amount on "guessing.")
Still , the Planet in question, Alchera, has less gravity then Earth, meaning, the needed orbital velocity would be lower, but still well over 20000 Km/h.
The comparable minor mass of Shepard's body would result in less gravity pull compared to a heavier object, so the entry angel would be relatively shallow, and that's leads to the same Problem the Shuttle has, shallow angel, not enough speed = "bouncing off"
Edit: typo
Modifié par Holger1405, 18 mai 2012 - 11:43 .
#20585
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 10:30
Archonsg
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SWTOR subs cancelled. We still have 95 +/- days of play though.
Wife says she'll miss her Sith Sorceress, but its all about "integrity".
Reason for cancelling : "I cannot support a company that mis-advertised Mass Effect 3, and instead of addressing the issue, choose to both insult your paying customers and than hide behind "artistic integrity". "Multiple vastly varied endings" indeed.
Wife says she'll miss her Sith Sorceress, but its all about "integrity".
Reason for cancelling : "I cannot support a company that mis-advertised Mass Effect 3, and instead of addressing the issue, choose to both insult your paying customers and than hide behind "artistic integrity". "Multiple vastly varied endings" indeed.
Modifié par Archonsg, 18 mai 2012 - 10:34 .
#20586
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 10:32
Holger1405
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Archonsg wrote...
Depending on angle of attack (vector) on re-entry and speed, having too much speed could cause the object to escape a planet's gravity well, as well as "bounce" off a planet's atmosphere. In this case Alchera's -20% that of Earth grav would indicate that Shepard should not be travelling that much faster.
Good call though.
Well, quoted daveyeisley before I saw your post, so it's all above!
Archonsg wrote...
You are right in a sense.
However, temperatures in "true" space would depend a lot on how close you are to the planet's sun and how much energy is being reflected off an object, in this case Shepard in his/her armor and the composition / material of said armor.
Which is why that range is so high. Absolute "zero" in deep space with little or no direct sun reflection = 2.7 kevlin (-270.7 deg celsius) to as high several thousand degrees if you are near a sun's corona.
However, the planet itself gives us that clue.
It has a surface temperature of -22 deg celsius which would indicate that Alchera's sun isn't that near nor its energy output in space bring about such a drastic rise in temperature, say that of if Shepard was at Venus.
So I think my original assessment is right, that in this case, Shepard's armor and shields would be sufficient to withstand a short jaunt in space.
Yes , never doubted it.
Archonsg wrote...
I can only think of ONE possible solution and this unfortunately relies on luck. (as much as I hate that)
A hell of a lot of luck.
Archonsg wrote...
Thus it could be very possible that while exploring this, we do find that hey, Bioware DID screw up ...again.
Oh I never thought Bioware screw up in this case. I also never thought that resurrection Shepard would be possible, but the Plot twist was amazing! I was literally, with my mouth wide open, staring on my screen as this happend. thinking, well, Ok, they just killed off the main character, on the beginning of the second Game....
It was just too good, so I never considered it a bad decision, imho it was Space Magic, but damn well set Space Magic.
Modifié par Holger1405, 18 mai 2012 - 10:49 .
#20587
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 10:44
Archonsg
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Holger1405 wrote...
Archonsg wrote...
I can only think of ONE possible solution and this unfortunately relies on luck. (as much as I hate that)
A hell of a lot of luck.Archonsg wrote...
Thus it could be very possible that while exploring this, we do find that hey, Bioware DID screw up ...again.
Oh I never thought Bioware screw up in this case. I also never thought that resurrection Shepard would be possible, but the Plot twist was amazing! I was literally, with my mouth wide open, staring on my screen as this happend. thinking, well, Ok, they just killed off the main character, on the beginning on the second Game....
It was just too good, so I never considered it a bad decision, imho it was Space Magic, but dame well set Space Magic.
Yeah.
Still, that "lucky stroke" is still within the realm of possibility.
But yes, I am not against ALL space magic, heck Biotics are by definition, literally space magic
, but as long as they use it sparingly, use it within context of the game and use it without breaking the rules (bend them all you want) of plausibility, I am fine with it.
#20588
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 11:09
Holger1405
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Archonsg wrote...
SWTOR subs cancelled. We still have 95 +/- days of play though.
Wife says she'll miss her Sith Sorceress, but its all about "integrity".
Reason for cancelling : "I cannot support a company that mis-advertised Mass Effect 3, and instead of addressing the issue, choose to both insult your paying customers and than hide behind "artistic integrity". "Multiple vastly varied endings" indeed.
I don't know how long you are married, but I , married for 17 years now, wouldn't take the beloved "Sith Sorceress" of my wife away from her, (wife reaction:
) no I wouldn't....
#20589
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 11:33
daveyeisley
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@archonsg
Awesome link, thanks!
Unfortunately, I think we need an aerospace engineer's expertise to really make firm conclusions, especially an engineer who is intimately familliar with re-entry calculations.
Your link does lead me to think that the main factors in the heat generated (and thus the risk of shep's body being melted/disintegrated) would be the shockwave's compression leading to kinetic energy (and thus heat accumulation before dispersal), and to a much lesser extent (surprisingly to me) velocity and atmospheric density which lead to friction.
I think it is safe to say that because friction is actually the lesser of the two factors in heat generation, and due to that fact that lower gravity means a lower rate of acceleration (resulting in lower velocity at every point in the descent) and lower atmospheric pressure means lower atmospheric density which means less friction, Shep's armor could more than likely survive the heat from the comparatively low friction.
The shockwave's compression would also yield less heat due to two factors: 1) lower atmospheric density reducing the maximum potential energy of the shockwave from compression and also increasing the rate of energy/heat dispersal 2) lower gravity yielding decreased acceleration meaning less kinetic energy generated from the descent overall for transfer to the shockwave.
This would seem to combine with the freezing atmospheric temperatures to make it seem more plausible that the heat, while dangerous, might not fry shep's body inside his armor.
I think Shep still would be extremely lucky, simply because he happened to be spaced near a planet with lower gravity, lower atmospheric density, no oxygen in the atmosphere, and freezing atmospheric temperatures.
Awesome link, thanks!
Unfortunately, I think we need an aerospace engineer's expertise to really make firm conclusions, especially an engineer who is intimately familliar with re-entry calculations.
Your link does lead me to think that the main factors in the heat generated (and thus the risk of shep's body being melted/disintegrated) would be the shockwave's compression leading to kinetic energy (and thus heat accumulation before dispersal), and to a much lesser extent (surprisingly to me) velocity and atmospheric density which lead to friction.
I think it is safe to say that because friction is actually the lesser of the two factors in heat generation, and due to that fact that lower gravity means a lower rate of acceleration (resulting in lower velocity at every point in the descent) and lower atmospheric pressure means lower atmospheric density which means less friction, Shep's armor could more than likely survive the heat from the comparatively low friction.
The shockwave's compression would also yield less heat due to two factors: 1) lower atmospheric density reducing the maximum potential energy of the shockwave from compression and also increasing the rate of energy/heat dispersal 2) lower gravity yielding decreased acceleration meaning less kinetic energy generated from the descent overall for transfer to the shockwave.
This would seem to combine with the freezing atmospheric temperatures to make it seem more plausible that the heat, while dangerous, might not fry shep's body inside his armor.
I think Shep still would be extremely lucky, simply because he happened to be spaced near a planet with lower gravity, lower atmospheric density, no oxygen in the atmosphere, and freezing atmospheric temperatures.
#20590
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 11:34
Voodoo-j
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3DandBeyond wrote...
Well, we need to stop this right now. In truth we are all fanboys or whatever you want to call it. We've all been fanboys or we wouldn't be here (I say it even though I'm an older lady). We are all here because we love ME or have loved it. Many of us just want the chance to love it again. We are disappointed to put it mildly, in a game with fantastic stories, acting, music, struggles, foes, heroes, characters, and so on-disappointed that all of that seems to have been forgotten and left out of the ending of ME3.
Others are just not thrilled or think the ending is ok. Others just don't care since it had pretty colors and marines waving guns and someone died.
But I daresay we all have loved these games.
Older lady... I beg to differ, such a young a vibrant soul.
But this is exactly what (most) everyone really wants, a reason to play through again.
If Bioware can fix that then the % of unhappy people (even if it's an ending they don't completely agree with) will drop dramatically.
As for anyone who thinks we've complained enough, their stated ec doesn't beam down a ray of sunshine in the gloom of ME that I have had since I seen Shepard get blasted of his/her feet. Once I have hope, or Bioware has dashed all hope, then and only then shall I stop. I'm waiting to see their response, if they are listening.
Modifié par Voodoo-j, 18 mai 2012 - 11:35 .
#20591
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 11:47
daveyeisley
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Holger1405 wrote...
daveyeisley wrote...
@ holger
I am intrigued by your assertion that Shepard's body would 'bounce off' the planet's atmosphere if it was not going fast enough.
Do you have a link to your source for this?
I only ask because in modern spaceflight, the craft follows a re-entry vector that is designed to "glance off" the edge of the atmosphere to *avoid* extra friction as it penetrates. The thrusters are used to align the orbital path with this vector, but gravity does the rest as I understand it.
I am not positive, but I believe the gravity of the planet provides sufficient force to pull and object to its surface, even if the object is travelling a vector that intersects on a shallow angle with the atmosphere (which also reduces the friction created by slowly penetrating to denser layers rather than punching thru directly).
EDIT: Actually, I can see now a scenario where an object caught by the gravity well would "slingshot" around the planet, but still escape orbit, however.... this would have more to do with the object's vector upon contact with the planet's gravity well, the angle would have to be extremely shallow. Greater velocity would actually make it more likely to "slingshot" rather than become a decaying orbit, because the increased velocity would increase momentum, which is needed to escape the gravity well without thrust.
Actually 'I can't, didn't looked this up, it comes from old Knowledge stored in regions of my brain long note used... <_<
But maybe I can explain.
The "bounce off" effect is of course related to the entry angel.
Example Space Shuttle.
The orbital velocity of the Space Shuttle is, if I remember correctly, about 28000 Km/h (17400 mph)
The re-entry angle is 6 - 7 %
The re-entry velocity is about 27000 Km/h (17,000 mph)
So why didn't they slow done the Shuttle even more? They have not enough energy (fuel) to slow it down significantly, and because of the given re-entry angel, if they would decelerate it to, let's say 25000 Km/h, the Shuttle wouldn't have enough speed to "penetrate" the atmosphere and would "bounce of" back into the orbit.
You can compare this to throwing a Stone over a water surface. If you get the angel and velocity right (in our case wrong) it will bounce of several times until it has lost the necessary speed, and ultimately sink.
That didn't mean it would escape Orbit, on the next circulation it would be re-enter the atmosphere.
Shepard body is not a Space Shuttle, it has significant less mass and, of course, no controls.
(I have no data regarding a human body entering an atmosphere, so this has his amount on "guessing.")
Still , the Planet in question, Alchera, has less gravity then Earth, meaning, the needed orbital velocity would be lower, but still well over 20000 Km/h.
The comparable minor mass of Shepard's body would result in less gravity pull compared to a heavier object, so the entry angel would be relatively shallow, and that's leads to the same Problem the Shuttle has, shallow angel, not enough speed = "bouncing off"
Edit: typo
Not exactly, though. If they slow the shuttle down, its angle of descent will decay faster because gravity is now facing less resistance. I believe this would increase the penetration of the atmosphere, but heat from the shockwave compression would remain about the same.
The problem is as you said, the gravitic acceleration of the large mass of the shuttle leading to momentum which is too great, they do not have enough fuel to apply counter thrust long enough to make a significant difference. If they had the fuel, they could apply counter thrust the whole way down and make an easier re-entry.
The rock-skipping example still confirms the 'bounce-off' effect is due to too much velocity, rather than not enough.
As you said, the rock cannot penetrate the water until it slows down. Velocity increases the resistance to penetration. Shepards body travelling at lower velocity makes penetrating easier, not harder.
#20592
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 11:58
Benchpress610
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dalethfc wrote...
The Ending is similar to Deus-Ex-HR, push 1, 2 or 3, but in that, there is a full and valid reason that makes sense.
Unlike this rubbish for ME3.
Agreed, the ending in DXHR did make sense given the story background and solutions offered. Jensen didn’t need a magical construct to execute his decision. It was just insert a specific message in the signal that was already transmitting. And there were four choices, not three.
Modifié par Benchpress610, 18 mai 2012 - 12:22 .
#20593
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:07
3DandBeyond
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Archonsg wrote...
So, what if all comes to pass and after the EC DLC is released, and Bioware announced, an "Alternative Endings DLC for say $19.90 that will contain a heroic victory, would anyone want to buy this? Am starting to wonder if wasn't the plan all along, because I just can't imagine why they would want ME to end like this.
Given that blue screen that comes up saying Shepard has become a legend, buy some DLC, I have tended to think this myself.
There's no way I can honestly believe that writers that came up with such full characters and some amazing stories could want to end the games this way, nor can I believe that they thought this actually brought some type of meaning to all that happened.
There's one comment that was made (I honestly can't remember who said it on the Bioware team) that is kind of dismissive of complaints about the ending and indicates they should have known better. The person said they understood that fans would be sad since this (ME3) was the last Shepard story. This says a lot.
First, it says they knew that no matter what fans would be emotionally affected at the end of ME3.
Second, it says Shepard's story ends with ME3, but they have always said there will be ME3 DLC-so Shepard could have been in planned DLC.
Third, this person believes or believed that people were only upset because Shepard's story was "over".
The last part is very wrong. What happened was that people expected something amazing to happen with the story at the end. We expected something heroic and victorious or something tragic and disastrous and we expected all the shades of gray in between. We knew that even if there was this amazing happy ending there would be a tinge of sadness at the story ending. But, what we got was like we expected the full spectrum of black to gray to white endings. Shades from good to bad. Instead we got chartreuse, an ending so completely out of character or meaning within these games.
We expected to be sad, maybe bittersweet sad even if a happy ending happened, what we were and are was shocked, dumbfounded, in disbelief, disappointed, horrified, in denial that this could actually be the ending. We looked for a third disc. We figured this was a joke. I know I played the ending again to see if I missed something. Sadness set in, but I wasn't just sad that Shepard's story was done (actually I didn't feel like it was), I was sad that the game and all these characters and that I the player and I as Shepard was treated this way. I was sad that someone actually had the nerve, the gall, the opinion that this was a decent ending. I was sad that something so contrived and illogical could be used to end 3 games that never let me feel they were contrived and illogical. And, I had to deal with this along with knowing or figuring that these great characters did all this stuff for nothing-or at least some of them did. I know I wondered why I worked to get all the war assets and why I didn't just let people die in the ME2 suicide mission since it wouldn't have mattered.
But, I also felt that it just seemed unfinished. I never could shake that feeling.
#20594
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:19
Benchpress610
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If it is a whole expansion pack with 10+ hours of gameplay i might consider it. But if it is just an alternative ending pack with a few cutscenes and a couple of dialog options and maybe an hour of gameplay. It'd better be free or I won't buy it. Takes a lot of nerve to sell you an incomplete game and then charge you for the ending.Archonsg wrote...
So, what if all comes to pass and after the EC DLC is released, and Bioware announced, an "Alternative Endings DLC for say $19.90 that will contain a heroic victory, would anyone want to buy this? Am starting to wonder if wasn't the plan all along, because I just can't imagine why they would want ME to end like this.
#20595
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:20
Thanatos144
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Never mind
Modifié par Thanatos144, 18 mai 2012 - 12:23 .
#20596
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:24
Benchpress610
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Ah...bubbles making ripples again. Isn't that nice....
#20597
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:30
daveyeisley
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Thanatos144 wrote...
spoiled children....
Yo, yo, you got dat so right, dawg. You keep droppin all dis maturity on us ungrateful babies. We all admire you, dawg. You got such a handle on being a grown-up. You tryin to teach us how to grow, right? You wanna help us all. I feel you dawg.
What else, what else?
Modifié par daveyeisley, 18 mai 2012 - 12:30 .
#20598
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:30
Thanatos144
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One day when you have something of substance instead of bootlicking and whining you will be worth more notice than what you get now which is humour.Benchpress610 wrote...
Ah...bubbles making ripples again. Isn't that nice....
#20599
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:32
Thanatos144
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I dont care if you admire me. I just find it humorous you 5 keep at this.daveyeisley wrote...
Thanatos144 wrote...
spoiled children....
Yo, yo, you got dat so right, dawg. You keep droppin all dis maturity on us ungrateful babies. We all admire you, dawg. You got such a handle on being a grown-up. You tryin to teach us how to grow, right? You wanna help us all. I feel you dawg.
What else, what else?
Modifié par Thanatos144, 18 mai 2012 - 12:33 .
#20600
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 12:45
daveyeisley
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Thanatos144 wrote...
I dont care if you admire me. I just find it humorous you 5 keep at this.daveyeisley wrote...
Thanatos144 wrote...
spoiled children....
Yo, yo, you got dat so right, dawg. You keep droppin all dis maturity on us ungrateful babies. We all admire you, dawg. You got such a handle on being a grown-up. You tryin to teach us how to grow, right? You wanna help us all. I feel you dawg.
What else, what else?
We jus' tryin to do right by you, mastah!
