23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

 Ok, just speculation and my own assumption so please feel free to offer your own interpretations on this. Since the Human Reaper wasn't finished I figured it wasn't in it's final form. I then assumed that the species that is Reaped is only the internal form and the Uniform Reaper ship that resembles a cuttlefish is an exterior hull. So, in my mind the Human Reaper when completed would have extisted inside the cuttlefish form. This creates a mind/body state where the Human Reaper=Mind inside Cuttlefish=Body if this makes sense

I think, but could be wrong that all of the reaper "ships" incorporate organic material to some extent.  I believe they utilize the goo that is made-so not only are reaper creatures (husks, et al) created, but the goo is like some sort of life blood.  Sovereign stated basically that Synthesis was their goal.  Perhaps, they continually worked to perfect it and turned out abominations...

I don't think we have enough context on this. But, I don't think they make a distinction between reapers, much like the geth are all geth.  Harbinger is a program within the Harbinger reaper kind of like EDI is in the ship and in the new EDI body.  But, the ships aren't just synthetic constructs.  I don't know fully what the reproductive cycle is, but I do think it could be more basic than what we are led to believe.  They need organic substance to exist and they need intelligent organic substance.  

It may be that they use the appearance of a new Reaper (human or cuttlefish) as some trophy.  In humanity there's some sort of belief that they may have found perfection.  So much is made of the lack of diversity of other current and previous cultures, and the vast diversity of humanity. 

The unfinished human reaper may have been what they saw as their perfection.  I do see it as existing on its own, but I can't see how it would look like anything other than silly.  Probably why it ended up being destroyed.  Imagine it flying around or running on the ground, not a good look at all.

We also haven't ever seen creatures like the human reaper inside reaper ships, though we haven't been inside too many.  No huge Prothean-like Reapers running around inside them on a scale of the same size as the human one.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 mai 2012 - 04:45 .

[sdinc009]

Malditor wrote...

sdinc009, the displeased will always be the most vocal of any group, therefore the most represented on forums and sites. The same people will typically be on each site, giving you false account of the actual number of unique people.
To be honest, we are both assuming here. I assume the silent majority, and it is by far the majority, aren't sufficiently unhappy enough to care if the ending/story is changed. You assume the exact opposite.

Ok, I will agree with you on this. True, that we are both making assumption here to validate our side. There is no real way to say with 100% certainty where the majority "truely" lies. I will only state that in accordance with Statistics, the numbers alone as well as the relative congruence of opinions, seem to side with the majority disapproving ME3. Yes, it is a statistical assumption, but one that I'm making with a fairly high probability of numerical certainty.

[sdinc009]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

Snipped...
 
Not that I think Shepars body cud resist the forces on entry even in the best circumstances.

The problem is we do not know anything about where in the atmosphere or in orbit the Normandy was when Shepard left it.  It didn't burn up either-it did break up, but not as much as some things have done in falling to Earth.  However, there have also been lower orbit objects that have not broken up much and have run out of power and are only being propelled by Newton's law of an object in motion.  They were already propelled and in motion and were coasting to some extent.  So could Shepard's body and the Normandy be coasting. 

We have no clue as to the re-entry envelope-the atmosphere is thick and so on.  At the point where Shepard was hurled out of the Normandy, the orbit may have been low enough for that planet to not create all the stresses you point to.  Your points are good, but it's still a given that much of what's debated is based upon the Earth's gravity, pull, atmosphere, and high orbit. 

Let's not forget other unknowns like planentary rotation and atmospheric weather patterns, These would have to be factored in to determine the outcome

[3DandBeyond]

Malditor wrote...

Here's my theory on why it was so important about saving Earth, and why only humans were being "transformed" into a Reaper. While humanity wasn't the most advanced, it was a human that was the largest obsticle to the Reaper invasion and therefore deemed the largest threat. It showed that the largest force of Reapers were headed to destroy Earth, and therefore in order to stop the overall reaper threat we needed to destroy the force attacking Earth to win the overall battle. This is my theory, and I make no claim that it is or must be the right one.

Of course much of what we discuss is theory where no context is given.  You are just as right as anyone.  But, consider that much of what is said points to the reapers and others thinking humans are the most diverse, and in some ways more perfect advanced culture of this cycle.  I want to say, but could be very wrong, that this is said somewhere.  I won't state that as fact but if I do find it will let you know.

They do obsess over Shepard, wanted Shepard's body, but then why?  It may be it's not the whole of humanity but one human, the one human that actually understood words and images that came through "prothean" and reaper devices.  They seek perfection and even the star kid tries to display synthesis as some sort of perfection.  Shepard seems to stand out and maybe not only embodies that one soul that can unite other races to defeat the reapers, but also a certain spirit they find appealing.

In some ways, I do see the use of likenesses as trophies, just like any big game hunter has trophies, perhaps.  They are also warnings.  But again why there's no Prothean one stumps me (probably the same silliness factor of seeing a flying human reaper).  The Protheans uplifted the Asari and some Asari all but worshipped them.  Seeing a Prothean style reaper (not just collectors) if done right might impact the Asari.  Just like if humans had uplifted grasshoppers to be the next big dog civilization and the grasshoppers were told and confronted by a silly looking human reaper.  Ok, that wouldn't work, would it.  Maybe they could only use a Prothean and then a human head flying around.  I think a Volus or Elcor flying Reaper would look less silly than a human or prothean one.

[Malditor]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Of course much of what we discuss is theory where no context is given.  You are just as right as anyone.  But, consider that much of what is said points to the reapers and others thinking humans are the most diverse, and in some ways more perfect advanced culture of this cycle.  I want to say, but could be very wrong, that this is said somewhere.  I won't state that as fact but if I do find it will let you know.

They do obsess over Shepard, wanted Shepard's body, but then why?  It may be it's not the whole of humanity but one human, the one human that actually understood words and images that came through "prothean" and reaper devices.  They seek perfection and even the star kid tries to display synthesis as some sort of perfection.  Shepard seems to stand out and maybe not only embodies that one soul that can unite other races to defeat the reapers, but also a certain spirit they find appealing.

In some ways, I do see the use of likenesses as trophies, just like any big game hunter has trophies, perhaps.  They are also warnings.  But again why there's no Prothean one stumps me (probably the same silliness factor of seeing a flying human reaper).  The Protheans uplifted the Asari and some Asari all but worshipped them.  Seeing a Prothean style reaper (not just collectors) if done right might impact the Asari.  Just like if humans had uplifted grasshoppers to be the next big dog civilization and the grasshoppers were told and confronted by a silly looking human reaper.  Ok, that wouldn't work, would it.  Maybe they could only use a Prothean and then a human head flying around.  I think a Volus or Elcor flying Reaper would look less silly than a human or prothean one.

I just want to say, I'm happy to actually be having civil and intellectual discussions at this point. This gives me much more understanding of the depth some players have in their attachment and thoughts about the game.

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

Snipped...
 
Not that I think Shepars body cud resist the forces on entry even in the best circumstances.

The problem is we do not know anything about where in the atmosphere or in orbit the Normandy was when Shepard left it.  It didn't burn up either-it did break up, but not as much as some things have done in falling to Earth.  However, there have also been lower orbit objects that have not broken up much and have run out of power and are only being propelled by Newton's law of an object in motion.  They were already propelled and in motion and were coasting to some extent.  So could Shepard's body and the Normandy be coasting. 

We have no clue as to the re-entry envelope-the atmosphere is thick and so on.  At the point where Shepard was hurled out of the Normandy, the orbit may have been low enough for that planet to not create all the stresses you point to.  Your points are good, but it's still a given that much of what's debated is based upon the Earth's gravity, pull, atmosphere, and high orbit. 

The height of the orbit doesn't matter, only that the Body did enter the atmosphere matters.

And since which point in this Thread exactly do you defend Bioware and I am not?   

[3DandBeyond]

Malditor wrote...

I just want to say, I'm happy to actually be having civil and intellectual discussions at this point. This gives me much more understanding of the depth some players have in their attachment and thoughts about the game.

I also want to say that this is something that almost everyone can agree on, the ME series is an anomaly in gaming.  It could have been and still could be the most significant gaming experience and force for change in what I think has become a stagnated industry.  Not to insult anyone and I mean this, but not everyone that plays games is 13 and male.  I will admit to liking FPSs far more than I perhaps should-my nephews tell their friends and the reaction is surprise.

What ME did was to move gaming in a huge earth-shattering way.  It proved that people wanted a game with profound issues presented in the way that Star Trek presented some real issues in its day (interracial romance, racism, war, genocide).  The sensitivity shown to many subjects within these games is in a word, inspiring. Furthermore, they are uplifting not only within the game, but outside of it.

We are a diverse group (I've said this before).  Yet, we all can point to things that emotionally hit us within these games.  I told my brother there are parts that make grown men cry.  But there's more.

We are confronted by issues that in real life very few people can debate civilly.  There's the arrogance of some cultures, the ignorance, greed, spirtitualism, hatred, "promiscuity", ambitiousness of others.  There are issues of the meaning of love-straight, gay, alien, infidelity, casual, committed.  And yet, we accept it all.  There haven't by and large (at least not right here) been a lot of discussions of something being immoral or unacceptable or unnatural.  And even straight players have had their Shepard be gay and vice versa.  Religious issues are touched upon within the game even within the character of Legion, a synthetic being that speaks of heretics and strikes a religious chord, and yet we don't hit each other over the head with what we must or should believe about religion.

The games hit the sweet spot of gaming and so the love fans feel is great.  It's what has made it possible for us to mostly discuss things civilly and even in disagreement we still mostly agree.  We want more.  For many of us in order to be able to accept more, we need the ending to be better.  To live up to all these things that have been hit upon here.  We loved the games, the characters, the stories, the action, because when these worked they didn't just work well, they exceeded every game that ever came before.  They hit us somewhere deep in our core.  In part it was due to the interactive nature, because we felt we made the decisions and that is the further genius of these games.  We just want to be able to look at them as we once did and love them again.  We got dumped off a cliff and we need help crawling back up.

I know this is all over the top, but I just wanted to show what I feel about the games and show why I feel so disgusted with the ending.  I want an ending worthy of the story created thus far and all that interaction and choice.

[Redbelle]

On the matter of falling from orbit and surviving (Well he was dead so clearly survivings not much an option at that point)...... I watched a TV program about real life stories many a year ago and one that stuck in mind was how a parachutist had both chutes fail and she hit the ground, and lived. She shattered most of her right side however.

I know it's not the same as falling from orbit but the height, I don't think is as important as that she hit terminal velocity. If someone can survive a fall like that in real life and not have her organs mulched then it lends credance to Shepards body also surviving impact.

Havn't had time to look at the re-entry problem yet but someone elses post got me thinking about atmosphere, gasses and the ignitition temperature of those gases. Pondering it for later.

[Redbelle]

@ 3d.

I think the reason ME really really Reeeeeeally took off was that it made the story telling part of the game into a game mechanic that left ppl wanting to hear the dialogue so they could make choices how to respond. Thus, even conversation skippers had good reason to let the dialogue flow.

Playing older story games I find I can just hit Skip to get through all the stuff I've heard of previously and get ot the gameplay. But in ME the story and how you interact with others is a part of the gameplay and skipping it detracts from the overall experience.

The combat system is nice but has been said to have been lifted from GoW, another cover shooter. ME handles this well (except in ME1), but the story interaction was the main driving and selling point for me.

Lately I noticed another game. FFXIII-2 make use of a similar, choose how you respond, system. I'm not sold on the idea however as most FF games take so long to complete that hitting the end rarely makes me want to dive right back in.

Alpha Protocol has been the only other game I can remember that tried something similar. I think it was made by Obsidian who had a partnership with BW at some point. Might be wrong about that though.

Modifié par Redbelle, 18 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

Snipped...
 
Not that I think Shepars body cud resist the forces on entry even in the best circumstances.

The problem is we do not know anything about where in the atmosphere or in orbit the Normandy was when Shepard left it.  It didn't burn up either-it did break up, but not as much as some things have done in falling to Earth.  However, there have also been lower orbit objects that have not broken up much and have run out of power and are only being propelled by Newton's law of an object in motion.  They were already propelled and in motion and were coasting to some extent.  So could Shepard's body and the Normandy be coasting. 

We have no clue as to the re-entry envelope-the atmosphere is thick and so on.  At the point where Shepard was hurled out of the Normandy, the orbit may have been low enough for that planet to not create all the stresses you point to.  Your points are good, but it's still a given that much of what's debated is based upon the Earth's gravity, pull, atmosphere, and high orbit. 

The height of the orbit doesn't matter, only that the Body did enter the atmosphere matters.

And since which point in this Thread exactly do you defend Bioware and I am not?   

Not sure what you mean...I think maybe you think I am always attacking Bioware and ME games, but far from it.  I don't.  I think they blew it big time with the ending.  I don't like it and it has so many unforgivable egregious errors to it that others have said far better than I.

I am just disputing what another poster tried to assert-the idea that since the game has some space magic in it in places, that no one should have a problem with space magic at the end.

Archonsg has so fully disputed the idea that Shepard's body hitting the planet meant that it had been burnt up or disintegrated that I believe it's a non-issue.  That being said, many people didn't like the whole Lazarus Project thing and that's ok.  I personally don't see it as game-breaking because it opened up some plotlines in the game.  It also helped bring Cerberus more fully into the conflict so it was ok by me even if it was wholesale space magic-I don't think it is, but so what.

However, I do not accept the last thing I will remember and the thing I am working toward in 3 games being made whole cloth of space magic.  The star kid comes out of nowhere, but I was fighting Reapers.  In the last 5 minutes, he's the real enemy.  Let me shoot myself right here.  He controls the Reapers and won't stop them, thinking that destroying things to save them from being destroyed makes sense-ok, he's crazy.  Please, let me shoot him, or ok, I want to shoot myself, come on.

But nooooooooooo, instead I got to shoot Anderson and never even cried or anything, and TIM being indoctrinated meant he could suddenly control me.  Hmmm, yes that now makes sense.  Please give Anderson a gun and let him shoot me in the head now!

Ok, now in the span of 5 minutes the Citadel/Crucible mating project has created a baby-3 count them 3 awful, stupid, nonsensical choices.  Hmmm. frickin' frackin' stupid gun won't kill the kid, can't kill myself, and all I can do is wait and fail.  I got all these damn stupid assets just for this, 3 color decision where in the end my Love Interest and friends end up flying to Nirvana to live and procreate as I vaporize.  Great friends.  I want to shoot them now.  And the best, the very best I can hope for is for my body to end up in a pile of rubble and my gun is nowhere to be found.  Thank God it's the end.

Last thought-a few people have debated the ability of Shepard's body to remain partly intact when falling to a planet unlike Earth in atmosphere and with a lot of unknowns.  How then can it be that it then makes sense that Shepard landed on Earth, which we do know something about without even armor on (since that got blown off before Shepard got to the Citadel) and is able to take a breath, that incredibly happy super duper satisfying gasp of life and the promise of skipping through daisies?  Now that's space magic.

[Redbelle]

@3d

I'm hoping beyond hope at this point that BW will release DLC single player later as they did with ME2's shadow broker that will give us a better thought out ending. I mention Shadow Broker expansion not in the context that it was an ending to ME2 but that it came out around 10 months after ME2's release.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

On the matter of falling from orbit and surviving (Well he was dead so clearly survivings not much an option at that point)...... I watched a TV program about real life stories many a year ago and one that stuck in mind was how a parachutist had both chutes fail and she hit the ground, and lived. She shattered most of her right side however.

I know it's not the same as falling from orbit but the height, I don't think is as important as that she hit terminal velocity. If someone can survive a fall like that in real life and not have her organs mulched then it lends credance to Shepards body also surviving impact.

Havn't had time to look at the re-entry problem yet but someone elses post got me thinking about atmosphere, gasses and the ignitition temperature of those gases. Pondering it for later.

The gases couldn't ignite because there's no Oxygen so that's a non-issue.

What they point to is friction and see that as tearing up Shepard's armored body.  I don't see this as being a given since the armor protects from many things within the game and all of the things we don't know can impact how long Shepard might have experienced friction.  I've seen some bodies that have dealt with friction and sometimes it's amazing just what humans can experience.  Terminal velocity is an issue, but yes, people have even survived it with far less injury than you'd expect.

The fact that even in Earth's atmosphere and with all that is known about Earth and the potential for burn up, there are a lot of objects that face re-entry and have very little break up and they are actually intended to break up.

There are too many unknowns to just say out of hand that Shepard's armored body could not be sufficiently intact to be recovered.  In fact, we do see that the helmet was and Legion wears a piece of Shepard's chestplate.

[Redbelle]

Don't we also see part of his armour in ME'2 shadow broker expansion in Liara's apartment?

Modifié par Redbelle, 18 mai 2012 - 05:53 .

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

@3d

I'm hoping beyond hope at this point that BW will release DLC single player later as they did with ME2's shadow broker that will give us a better thought out ending. I mention Shadow Broker expansion not in the context that it was an ending to ME2 but that it came out around 10 months after ME2's release.

I too am not opposed to this.  I think there's still so much they could do with it-I think the ending was not something that could be easily contained within one standard sized game.

If you just take ME2 for example-it was superficially choice driven but had to funnel you to ME3, so it was really more linear than we felt.  ME3 could have been more varied. 

ME2 was basically chasing the Collectors in order to set you up for the Reapers and the Collectors were rather limited in scope-they seemed to use only one ship and then they had a base.  There were tangent quests of course.  The Reapers darkened the sky.  And you were tasked with uniting untold numbers of people together and along the way had to defeat things that were impediments to their help.  How on Earth this could be wedged into one game is beyond me.  And it's one of the reasons the game just feels unfinished, unpolished especially at the end.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

Don't we also see part of his armour in ME'2 shadow broker expansion in Liara's apartment?

Yes we do.

[Voodoo-j]

That has always twinged in the back of my head aswell.. 1 billion years.. and only 1 type of reaper??
Where are the countless races they have wiped out and stored if each reaper is designed to look like the race they are created from?

(maybe it was recoreded 1 million years.. but still)

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 18 mai 2012 - 05:58 .

[Redbelle]

With Mass Effect, I know the concept of freedom and choice is arguable........ But I've always seen it like this. You have to defeat the Reapers/Geth/Collectors, but how you do it and who you do it as is up to you.

So many games of yester year had me playing as a locked in hero who had his history and attitude pre written. ME freed the player from that.

[sdinc009]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

On the matter of falling from orbit and surviving (Well he was dead so clearly survivings not much an option at that point)...... I watched a TV program about real life stories many a year ago and one that stuck in mind was how a parachutist had both chutes fail and she hit the ground, and lived. She shattered most of her right side however.

I know it's not the same as falling from orbit but the height, I don't think is as important as that she hit terminal velocity. If someone can survive a fall like that in real life and not have her organs mulched then it lends credance to Shepards body also surviving impact.

Havn't had time to look at the re-entry problem yet but someone elses post got me thinking about atmosphere, gasses and the ignitition temperature of those gases. Pondering it for later.

The gases couldn't ignite because there's no Oxygen so that's a non-issue.

What they point to is friction and see that as tearing up Shepard's armored body.  I don't see this as being a given since the armor protects from many things within the game and all of the things we don't know can impact how long Shepard might have experienced friction.  I've seen some bodies that have dealt with friction and sometimes it's amazing just what humans can experience.  Terminal velocity is an issue, but yes, people have even survived it with far less injury than you'd expect.

The fact that even in Earth's atmosphere and with all that is known about Earth and the potential for burn up, there are a lot of objects that face re-entry and have very little break up and they are actually intended to break up.

There are too many unknowns to just say out of hand that Shepard's armored body could not be sufficiently intact to be recovered.  In fact, we do see that the helmet was and Legion wears a piece of Shepard's chestplate.

Just occured to me that there couldn't be enough heat generated to cause a burn, not just because of no oxygen, but also if there was ignition then would the entire planets atmosphere also have ignited. Remember, the atmosphere is methane, very flammable. No planet wide fireball, no burn.

[akenn312]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Last thought-a few people have debated the ability of Shepard's body to remain partly intact when falling to a planet unlike Earth in atmosphere and with a lot of unknowns.  How then can it be that it then makes sense that Shepard landed on Earth, which we do know something about without even armor on (since that got blown off before Shepard got to the Citadel) and is able to take a breath, that incredibly happy super duper satisfying gasp of life and the promise of skipping through daisies?  Now that's space magic.

I totally agree with this good point, does it really matter if Shepard was on fire or not? At least I can sorta buy Shepard falling to the planet and Cerberus being able to reanimate him from dead tissue. It's out there but at least not "Yo Dawg" out there.

But why all of a sudden at the end of Destroy is Sheppard hard to kill like Wolverine? It was first hard for me to believe he and Anderson survived a point blank Reaper blast but I did accept it, but after that he has been bleeding out for at least 10 minutes with no medi-gel help, then able to boldy walk into multiple explosions...Then survive the Citadel explosion...Then he falls to Earth surviving re-entry and hits the rubble like a comet and still able to take a breath. N7 dogtags intact and shiny and new. Hell Wolverine would die through that.

I need to stop thinking about it, it's just going to keep frustrating me. Even the one ending everyone thinks is the best ending is very FRAKED. LOL

Modifié par akenn312, 18 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[shenlonzero]

only thing i want is for to bioware to come out and say what they think the ending means to them. i don't need them to pull a lucas arts. so please consider that for a second, people. i think if bioware was a little more open about the ending, instead of going along with those who haven't beaten it yet. I don't really need extended content ending, cause everytime i think about someone doing this, i think about george lucas and how we will never have the original trilogy on bluray cause he went back and changed crap.

[daveyeisley]

Holger1405 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...


Not exactly, though. If they slow the shuttle down, its angle of descent will decay faster because gravity is now facing less resistance. I believe this would increase the penetration of the atmosphere, but heat from the shockwave compression would remain about the same.

The problem is as you said, the gravitic acceleration of the large mass of the shuttle leading to momentum which is too great, they do not have enough fuel to apply counter thrust long enough to make a significant difference. If they had the fuel, they could apply counter thrust the whole way down and make an easier re-entry.

The rock-skipping example still confirms the 'bounce-off' effect is due to too much velocity, rather than not enough.

As you said, the rock cannot penetrate the water until it slows down. Velocity increases the resistance to penetration. Shepards body travelling at lower velocity makes penetrating easier, not harder.

Well, It was pretty exactly.
With "significantly" slow the Shuttle down was meant to a velocity that wouldn't give heat problems at all.

The orbital velocity of the Space Shuttle is, as said, about 28000 Km/h, this is the velocity where gravity and velocity equals each other and the Shuttle stays in Orbit.
The re-entry velocity is about 27000 Km/h. The Shuttle is only slowed down by 1000 km/h this is enough to set it to descent.
If the Shuttle go faster, at the giving entry angle, it would burn up.
If it go slower, again, at the giving entry angle, it would be "bounce off" on the Atmosphere.
if it, before re-entry, go significantly slower, let say 20000 km/h, it couldn't hold the entry angle and would burn up or ripped apart later on.

If my assessment on the velocity and the entry angle are correct, Shepard's body would have the same Problem.
If I am wrong and the Body is significantly slower, it would be even worse. (as it would be for the Shuttle.)
In this case the Body would hit the atmosphere in an much steeper angle, and heat, due to friction, and compression would tear the Body apart.
Imagine you steering a car into a water wall with 100 Km/h and then imagine you do it with 20000 km/h... 
 
Not that I think Shepars body can resist the forces on entry even in the best circumstances.

I disagree and have explained why going slower will not cause the 'bounce-off' result. Slower is better for less resistance during penetration of a liquid or a gas. Going faster increases resistance and kinetic energy transfer, and thus heat and momentum.

What I think you are missing is that shepard's body would not have the mass or velocity of the shuttle, and therefore not have the momentum to 'bounce-off'. Its lower velocity combined with atmosperic conditions also means less kinetic energy transfer to the shockwave, thus less heat (even on a steeper re-entry angle, which it would not necesarily have to adopt).

The whole point being, it is plausible that shepards body did not burn up. The shuttle is somewhat of a poor comparison, due to its mass, but if it were dealing with the same conditions as Shepard's body on the low-grav, low density atmosphere with sub-freezing ambient temperatures, the tolerance would be much greater for a number of reasons.

I think if you still disagree, then we can put the cork in this one.

[3DandBeyond]

shenlonzero wrote...

only thing i want is for to bioware to come out and say what they think the ending means to them. i don't need them to pull a lucas arts. so please consider that for a second, people. i think if bioware was a little more open about the ending, instead of going along with those who haven't beaten it yet. I don't really need extended content ending, cause everytime i think about someone doing this, i think about george lucas and how we will never have the original trilogy on bluray cause he went back and changed crap.

The difference is Star Wars in its original form was great, complete, finished, and made sense.  I didn't need to guess about what happened.  Yes, it was also happy, so what?  The main point is it was a complete work as were Jedi and Empire Strikes Back.  They didn't need anything and what was added was cosmetic unnecessary stuff using more up to date CGI instead of allowing SW to exist as we had first seen it, in places rough and all, with explosions that at the time we felt worked.  It was years later that he had a change of heart, but he changed it over what was the Masterpiece SF work of a generation.  It was a blockbuster that no one ever said needed bigger CGI explosions or more CGI characters, but he got scared.  He knew he still wanted to release more Star Wars movies, but he had waited so long and by the time he did he had moved from the kind of grittiness that standard models had given SW and went with CGI for Phantom Menace.  It was so polished as to be annoying.  He didn't want the original trilogy to look and feel too much different from the new set.  And it was a huge mistake, no doubt about it.

But that is not at all similar to what we have here.  The ending of this game series is nowhere near artistic or complete, doesn't give one any sense of accomplishment.  In fact the feeling is, "what happened?  Is that it?"

Take this and then put it into the original Star Wars.  Just for example, A New Hope.  What if at the end, all the forces were set to fight the Death Star and you never see what happens afterward.  Or, maybe instead of Darth Vader coming after Luke in his Tie Fighter, maybe a clown.  And that clown is yelling, "Luke I am not your father and I must kill you so you are not killed by Stormtroopers."  And then Luke goes to shoot into the vent and there are 3 of them-one allows him to destroy the Death Star, himself, and C3PO and R2D2.  Another allows him to make all beings part organic and synthetic.  And the last one allows him to control the Death Star and drive it around the galaxy.  Oh, except he dies after making these choices unless he got enough people to join the Alliance (like if given a choice in siding with the Empire or the Rebel Alliance, the Empire made sense), and then he would live but fall back to the Rebel Base in a crumpled mass and take a breath.  But, no matter since Han Solo had bugged out, taken Leia and C3PO and R2 and Chewie with him and crash landed somewhere in never never land.  And now all ship's warp speed drives are inoperable and well, you get the idea.

If the ending of Star Wars had been horrible, it would never have been a block buster.  I saw it over 6 times when it was first released within the space of 2 weeks.  It didn't need fixing.  That's the big difference.


Believe me, a lot of people have been begging Bioware to explain what this ending means, in order to understand their vision and how it could be so vastly different from what people were promised and from the rest of the games.  Silence is what is given in return.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 mai 2012 - 06:45 .

[Benchpress610]

I know I might upset a few friends here, but I must insert my thoughts on the matter of
Shepard’s body burning or not. This is only on the burning issue and looked at strictly from a scientific point of view.
 
It all depends on how thick is the atmosphere of the planet and the gravitational pull of such planet.  In this case Alchera’s surface gravity is 0.85g (0.85*9.8 m/s2 = 8.33 m/s2)and Atm. pressure is 0.83 atm.

The gravity pull produces enough acceleration (8.33 m/s2) to generate terminal velocity (speed at which drag = gravity) in that atmosphere.
The density of the atmosphere (whatever it is made of) is high enough to produce enough drag (friction) to cause terminal velocity. I’m looking only at the Physics of the issue here. I’m not concern with Chemistry just yet. Under these conditions, the speed of a body falling through that atmosphere will produce such high friction to generate enough heat to incinerate that body to cinder. Now the question is: would Shepard’s armor be able to withstand that kind of heat? Probably for a few seconds it will, but not likely for the whole length of the fall.
 
Now let’s look at the Chemistry. Must posts I’ve read assume that oxygen is needed to burn something, and they are mostly right. Burning, or more correctly, combustion is an oxidation chemical reaction. A fuel and an oxidizer agent are needed to produce combustion. BTW, the type of reaction is named after the most common oxidizer there is: oxygen. The most common combustion reactions are the ones using hydrocarbons as fuel: generic equation—n(CH)+ n(O2) = n(CO + CO2 + H2O) + HEAT. However, there are other fuels and oxidizers. For example, the solid fuel rocket boosters that are the source for secondary propulsion on the Space Shuttle use a mixture of aluminum and magnesium as fuel and a substance containing sulfur as oxidizer. They don’t need oxygen to burn.
 
Back to Shepard’s body falling through an atmosphere of comparable density as ours into a planet with gravity similar to ours. The heat is generated by physical/mechanical means, not chemical. There is no “burning” in the sense of flames, but the enormous heat will vaporize the body (again another physical process). The human body is composed of mostly water (can’t remember the %), carbon, nitrogen and other elements. There we have it all the elements necessary for a good combustion under intense heat.
 
OMFG…I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Bubbles on this one.
 
All of that being said however, doesn’t discredit the fact that, as Archonsg put it in his post a few pages back, a little space magic sprinkled here and there to help the plot along is OK as long as it’s explained and maintains the narrative coherence of the story. Nothing compared to the appalling disjointed ending.
 
Sorry if I miss one or two numbers there. To write this, I had to dust off a few corners of my brain, I thought I never had to use ever again.

[Holger1405]

sdinc009 wrote...



Just occured to me that there couldn't be enough heat generated to cause a burn, not just because of no oxygen, but also if there was ignition then would the entire planets atmosphere also have ignited. Remember, the atmosphere is methane, very flammable. No planet wide fireball, no burn.

If there would be oxygen, you would be correct.

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress,
We'd never get mad at you or anyone else with any kind of respectful disagreement. I think all along we've all said that there's just enough more that we don't know that allows us to suspend our disbelief. I had thought perhaps Shepard's body would possibly melt, but vaporize I am sure you are correct, makes more sense. I don't think it was ever a given that in any conventional sense Shepard's body wouldn't be destroyed, but that with what we know it might not be.  And actually the fact that in order to disbelieve it with any real proof or certainty one needs to have such in depth knowledge is quite the opposite of what is needed to disbelieve the ending. 

It's the fact that there's just enough dramatic importance and it's just done well enough to make me accept the magic that may exist. It's an "I don't care, it works for me" kind of thing. I just don't see the ending in the same light.

Artistic or poetic license allows one to use fantastic fictional elements in order to drive a story, but only if they bend your sense of the possible or if the dramatic effect is great.

If at the end, the star kid had shown up earlier and said it was the horrible evil being behind the reapers and it gave TIM magical powers of control, that might have worked. If the star kid had said in Harbinger's voice that Shepard only had 3 choices to save some other lives in the galaxy and s/he had to make it now, I might have been able to live with it-well, it would have had to be done really well. I think it's all about the context that the space magic is used in and just how well it is used that matters. The ending wasn't done well. You have this kid-like thing with a kid-like voice and aren't given anything to go on. If he'd been explained better, it is possible it would have worked. Maybe not, but...the Shepard falls to Alchera was done fairly well in my opinion.

And actually you aren't agreeing that much with bubbles.  He thinks that if you can accept that about the beginning of ME2 then the ending is fine, because Space Magic is Space Magic.  He even said he didn't have a problem with it himself so the whole discussion was pointless.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 mai 2012 - 07:43 .