23455 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueStorm83]

---  OH!  There's one other thing that I wanted to bring up...

"TAKE BACK EARTH"

---  I don't think we actually did that...  I mean, we tried.  It might have worked, we don't get to see any kind of real victory.  Some dudes in armor cheer a little, but they're standing waist deep in the ashes of the UK at the time.  Not sure anyone down there will ever survive.

Okay, okay, let's forget marketing.  The whole series was about trying to save everyone from the Reapers, right?  At least we killed them!  ...  One third of the time, based on the 2 endings where the reapers survive.  At least they're friendly in both of those endinds!  ...  Maybe.  Not sure how long Shepard control would work.  Or how half-organic reapers would- WAIT A SECOND!  They were ALREADY made partially out of Organics!  This is very, very odd.

Was Soverign just lying to us when we talked to him on Vermire (where I still believe I should have been able to try and save both Williams and Alenko, and maybe lose other squad members in the process if my attempt went bad due to my ABILITY, not a simple "Press a button and make soneone die" choice?)  Because he never mentioned any of this stuff to us.  Also, if you'll recall, after the Geth went away, they went into Isolation... until the Reapers TOLD THEM to go kill Organics.  The circular logic is apparently actually a figure eight.

Maybe instead of an Extended Cut, we can convince BioWare to give us a Reduced Cut.  The game can end when we kill Kai Lang, and just change the Illusive Man's dialogue after that.  He'll say, "Wow, Shepard, you really impressed me.  I guess you really CAN just kill the Reapers.  I told them that you were in the middle of the sun, and the dumb bastards just flew into it to find you, and died.  The End."

So much more sense than the magic rainbow boom ending.

I'd like to return my 200+ dollars worth of games, and my over 200 hours of play time (beat the first two more than once, and all DLC) to BioWare and be reimbursed.  So depressing.

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

SP2219 wrote...

Casey Hudson kept referring to the theme of sacrifice in his statement two months ago regarding the conclusion to Mass Effect 3:

"We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection."

Mr Hudson, Shepard's death was NOT a noble sacrifice. Shepard's death was an act of weakness and stupidity. He lay down his life not to satisfy his own goals, but to satisfy the goals of the Catalyst. As such the death of Shepard was not a symbol of victory; it was a symbol of defeat.

I'll say it again. You made Shepard GIVE IN TO THE ANTAGONIST! Why did you do this? The whole point of an uplifting sacrifice is that the character in question lays down their life to preserve their ideals, as a sign of defiance to the story's villain. Shepard did not show any sign of defiance. Shepard gave in to the Catalyst. He sacrificed himself for the villain. Shepard is supposed to try and stop the Reapers; not help them! This is not inspiring or uplifting, it is depressing, stupid, and an insult to Shepard's character.

If you think this is an inspiring ending, you are either in complete denial and unwilling to admit your mistake, or you are really stupid, and you do not understand what the words sacrifice and victory mean. I am unwilling to believe the former, as you and your team have proven time and again you are capable of conveying these themes. In much of Mass Effect 3 and your previous games the theme of victory through sacrifice is conveyed extremely well - but in the final twenty minutes of Mass Effect 3 you convey the opposite theme - the theme of defeat through weakness, stupidity and betrayal. I'm not sure that this is the theme you wanted to convey.

To be clear, from the ending you gave us, Shepard is either:

Too stupid to comprehend the situation and his own motives

Manipulative, power hungry, devoid of empathy, like the Catalyst and the Reapers. Hence he is not worthy of our respect or support - we were fools to trust him from the very beginning

Too weak to stand and fight for what he believes in - the preservation of free will. He doesn't have the courage or the capacity to fight when it matters most, at the tipping point of the final battle. At the most important part of the entire trilogy, he just gives up. It was all for nothing.

In any of these three situations, the audience comes away feeling stupid, guilty, or weak as a result. Is this what you want us to feel? Is this what you call inspiring and uplifting? I cannot believe that you would actually say this and mean it. Not to sound cliched Casey, but you really have got to be joking.

You do not necessarily need to get rid of this ending. You seem to think it's good. I guess the theme of defeat through weakness, stupidity and betrayal really works for you? Well, be that as it may, it doesn't work for everyone else. Give your players, the people who bought your game, the option of fighting back. Let us try and achieve what Shepard was working towards through the entire trilogy. Shepard might die, he might utterly fail, we don't care - but you need to let us try. Whether for good or for bad, you need to make it an option. You advertised your game with the slogan "Take Earth Back" not "Accept Defeat and Join the Enemy." You owe your customers what you advertised to them. They didn't pay you to mislead them.

I am angry because you are trying to defend your ending as if it is actually good. You cannot defend this. I would be perfectly fine if you just owned up to the fact that you made a mistake, and promised to correct it. No doubt your entire fanbase would support you. Instead, you rub it in our faces and insult our intelligence, as if we were too stupid to comprehend the crap you served us. This is extremely poor, lazy writing, and it is completely unworthy of you. If you truly think otherwise, then I am sorry to have trusted you to actually care about this franchise and your fans.

And no, you have not promised to correct your mistake with the Extended Cut DLC. You have promised to extend your mistake and make it worse. The problem is not clarity of exposition. The problem is that you gave the player no other option than to give in to the villain, and you should have given them the option to fight, however abrupt and poorly produced that might have been. That is why people are so angry, and that is why the ending, as it exists in its current form, is a failure.

Explains how I feel to a T alot of other fans see the catalyst as the hero but he created the reapers to destroy organic advanced life for generations and is using his reapers to pretty much destroy life across the galaxy as we speak he is not a hero he is a monster using other monsters to destroy us and all of our friends why would he give shepard any options other then the ones that help the reapers or let them win

Shepard didn't make a heroic sacrfice he or she submitted and gave into the creator of the reapers into Illogical suicides that ultimately only help the reapers in either they're goal of cleansing advanced organic life or preserving the reaper collective

Also what is also funny is that one of the costume dlcs for Final Fantasy XIII-2 Is commander shepards N7 armour plus failure endings to both games seeing any comparison here?

[3DandBeyond]

Here's some food for thought-early on in the games, can't remember who said it or where, but it was said one of the first things the reapers do for a cycle, after they've "invaded" is to shut down the mass relays to strand the races. I always just figured well they retconned this and it didn't happen in ME3. Oh, but wait it does.

If Shepard makes any of the 3 choices, what happens? The relays are destroyed. Well, ending fans say the explosions or destruction doesn't also destroy systems, so ok I now agree with that. It strands the races. It takes 100 years for a harvesting, so the reapers just arrived and got Shepard to shut down the relays.

[Firefly76]

Dear Bioware,

ME is amazing. I've spent hundreds of hours and dollars from games to art to books and have enjoyed every minute of it. Until the end of ME 3. I tried to enjoy it. I think I understand it. But after investing so much of myself into a story that I felt I created as much as the writers did, I suddenly found myself at a loss. After everything Shepard (I) accomplished he didn't deserve that. Every high road he took and sacrifice along the way should have earned more than dissolving into a beam of light with every good time and celebration promised by friends and crew lost along the way.

Vader didn't skewer Luke on the end of his saber or Gollum chuck Bilbo into the volcano. Let the hero have a happy ending. He deserves it. Especially in a story that so many invested so much in. A sketchy book or movie ending is easy to move on from. There is always another book or movie on the way. But these days there are few good games and barely any like ME.

I pray those last few moments were some sort of test to measure Shepard's and perhaps the galaxy's worth or even a bad dream... Anything. Just don't send him off like that. When the beam fades let the man or woman get back up and have a chance.

Please.

[3DandBeyond]

Landon7001 wrote...

any ending thats this easy to pick apart by this many ppl in a series based on meticulous detail, w extreme thought and care behind it, up until that point.....somethings wrong

those endings just are not right in any way...i never would have foreseen this **** from from these gifted ppl.....didnt they start working on me 3 before me 2 was even released according to them? didnt they go on about how, due to no further sequels, me 3 would be more branching and diverse in its story than any previous game....wow

Exactly-it's almost the fact that not only this many people can pick it apart for one thing, but for so many things.  It's also the fact that people have used logic to back up their statements and in order to refute what people say one must make up stuff. 

It was also something said by the devs that because ME3 was the end of the series and didn't have to be used to wedge pieces into any other sequel, the endings could be extremely diverse.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 20 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

Deleted, guy was being funny.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 mai 2012 - 12:33 .

[Andy the Black]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Landon7001 wrote...

any ending thats this easy to pick apart by this many ppl in a series based on meticulous detail, w extreme thought and care behind it, up until that point.....somethings wrong

those endings just are not right in any way...i never would have foreseen this **** from from these gifted ppl.....didnt they start working on me 3 before me 2 was even released according to them? didnt they go on about how, due to no further sequels, me 3 would be more branching and diverse in its story than any previous game....wow

Exactly-it's almost the fact that not only this many people can pick it apart for one thing, but for so many things.  It's also the fact that people have used logic to back up their statements and in order to refute what people say one must make up stuff. 

It was also something said by the devs that because ME3 was the end of the series and didn't have to be used to wedge pieces into any other sequel, the endings could be extremely diverse.

I'm assuming that the reason for only 3 endings is because they do plan on making Mass Effect 4.

[BearlyHere]

To put it in simplest terms, this is a game, and its players have invested much of themselves in it, just as the Bioware staff has. People do not play games to feel sick afterwards, or to feel used or ripped off. People play games to win and beat the game. It's that simple. What you gave us was a massive fail, with a mind game of our character taking a breath dangled before those of us who actually played twice. We are not entitled jerks because we believe that Shepard has as much right to survive and live, no matter how difficult that life would be. You've taken care of your favorite characters, Joker and Liara, Now how about our character?

Because frankly, if you had given more than a vague hint that there was no way of "winning" this game,and been honest from the beginning that you planned to kill Shepard off, how many of us would have played anyway?

[daveyeisley]

Another gripe:

It did not feel 'uplifting' to have Shepard pass out after crawling to the console only to have the lift activated for him. He didn't press any buttons. He didn't activate it. Either the Citadel, the Catalyst, or the Crucible somehow did it for him. If this was not done, Shepard would have failed. Utterly and completely.

It makes any sense of accomplishment feel more like getting a handout.

[Chrislo1990]

BearlyHere wrote...

To put it in simplest terms, this is a game, and its players have invested much of themselves in it, just as the Bioware staff has. People do not play games to feel sick afterwards, or to feel used or ripped off. People play games to win and beat the game. It's that simple. What you gave us was a massive fail, with a mind game of our character taking a breath dangled before those of us who actually played twice. We are not entitled jerks because we believe that Shepard has as much right to survive and live, no matter how difficult that life would be. You've taken care of your favorite characters, Joker and Liara, Now how about our character?

Because frankly, if you had given more than a vague hint that there was no way of "winning" this game,and been honest from the beginning that you planned to kill Shepard off, how many of us would have played anyway?

You're absolutely right. Bioware takes away player choice away from us where it matter MOST, determining Shepard's ultimate fate. To add insult to injury they implememnt a ridiculous ending that makes no sense whatsoever when it comes to canon. Bioware just absolutely ruined Mass Effect for me and that to me is unforgivable after having invested so much time with my Shepard, let alone the amount of money I spent purchasing their games and dlc.

But what does Bioware do when we bring out our torches? Nothing! Talk about having ego huh? A company that claims to be humble won't even afford to acknowledge their own mistake, let  alone correct them! Hey Bioware we don't want an extended cut. We wan additional ending where we , the players, decide whether Shepard lives or dies based on past decisions, moral inclinations, and so and so forth. I can't believe you guys would do away with a formula that worked beautifully in the past. Do you guys not care about your own product, about your own reputation as a developer? Have you becomerthat profit hungry? Do what's right! Do what actually needs to be done. Otherwise not a dollar more from me. I have not replayed ME3  since I beat it nad I don't plan to. What' the point? The multiplayer? Please...I could care less about it. Hold the line guys!

[3DandBeyond]

Andy the Black wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Landon7001 wrote...

any ending thats this easy to pick apart by this many ppl in a series based on meticulous detail, w extreme thought and care behind it, up until that point.....somethings wrong

those endings just are not right in any way...i never would have foreseen this **** from from these gifted ppl.....didnt they start working on me 3 before me 2 was even released according to them? didnt they go on about how, due to no further sequels, me 3 would be more branching and diverse in its story than any previous game....wow

Exactly-it's almost the fact that not only this many people can pick it apart for one thing, but for so many things.  It's also the fact that people have used logic to back up their statements and in order to refute what people say one must make up stuff. 

It was also something said by the devs that because ME3 was the end of the series and didn't have to be used to wedge pieces into any other sequel, the endings could be extremely diverse.

I'm assuming that the reason for only 3 endings is because they do plan on making Mass Effect 4.

Well if so they have decided to share very little with their fanbase.  That is actually an unsound marketing practice.  Fans provide free advertising.  Keeping fans out of the loop is the height of stupidity.  I will give one major example.  It's for a PS3 game (I don't want to debate the merits of the game or such). 

The game was a Japanese title, originally only available there and never intended for a worldwide market.  Demon's Souls.  People started buying and importing the Japanese version, mainly to North America.  The game was never advertised in North America at this point.  Sony that owned the game, didn't particularly like the worldwide use of the servers in Japan for whatever reason.  They decided based upon the fanantic fervor for the game, to release it as a North American title with NA servers.  It exploded (for a very small Japanese title) and people globally started getting the NA version.  The only ad I ever saw for it was one Game Informer ad, once.  The fans hyped it, the company and Sony never did.  It got repeatedly high reviews from fans and other reviewers, even though it was different from most games out there.  It won Best Game of the Year from Gamespot.  Nominated for best RPG for Spike TV's awards. 

And then it was released in Europe due to fan wishes and hype.  But basically it was a little game that sold very well with virtually no advertising.  Fans forced the release of the game globally when it was never planned.  And fan hype sold the game, not the company.

All game companies should take note of what happened with Demon's Souls.  It was simplistic, but not simple and fans made it a hit.  It also meant that the "sequel that wasn't really a sequel" Dark Souls sold very well in pre-orders, even was over sold.  I won't delve into the many mistakes made with Dark Souls however, but its success was a direct result of the fan created success of Demon's Souls.

Bioware had stated that ME3 was the end of the Shepard's story arc, but that there would be DLC.  They further stated that any new ME game would not be a sequel, but a prequel or even something akin to a huge sidequest (set concurrently with events in the present ME series).  However, these are the same people that said there'd be no ABC ending and it would be like no two endings would be alike for ME3.  FWIW.

[3DandBeyond]

daveyeisley wrote...

Another gripe:

It did not feel 'uplifting' to have Shepard pass out after crawling to the console only to have the lift activated for him. He didn't press any buttons. He didn't activate it. Either the Citadel, the Catalyst, or the Crucible somehow did it for him. If this was not done, Shepard would have failed. Utterly and completely.

It makes any sense of accomplishment feel more like getting a handout.

For a game ending that the marketing exec touted as being action packed because that's what people want (they want fighting and at that point don't care about their friends or any romance), I am left wondering where the action is.  I see more exciting action when watching my computer's screen saver.

[Voodoo-j]

 Where on the box does it say, Absolutely amazing action packed game play with a no win scenario ending that will leave you questioning a highly philosophical matter.  
It's not a game I would play, really get that crap out of your heads, or your next game you publish will flop harder than freddy got fingered.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 21 mai 2012 - 01:58 .

[BlueStorm83]

--- IF, and that's a big if, but IF the ending of the game is that Shepard shut off the relays for the Reapers (because the Protheans disabled the Reapers' ability to make the Keepers do it) and that now the REAL Reaping is going to begin, honestly, that would be a better ending than the current unsure, uninformative crap. I'd rather see that despite everything that Shepard tried, he gave his all but failed, and then in any sequels the NEXT Cycle could win it out.

If that's what happened, and Humanity DID survive on that jungle world and rebuild, then we would have FIFTY THOUSAND YEARS to come up with a new plan to beat the bastards. That, though depressing as all hell, would at least make some sense with what we know about the game cannon and what we've seen and done. Sure, the Asari, Quarrians, Geth, Vorcha, Krogan, Turian, Yahg, Volus, Elcor, Salarians, Batarians, and any other lesser races would be absolutely wiped out, and that's kinda a **** thing to do to people who put so much work into saving them all, at least it would fit with the established knowledge and the things we've seen. It would also answer the burning "Why the HELL was the Normandy RUNNING AWAY?!" question.

[BlueStorm83]

But, BioWare, DON'T DO THAT. Remove the Starboy's NONSENSICAL ramblings, either remove him altogether or at least add the option to deny his requests and 1) kill him, 2) commit suicide and let the fleet fight the reapers and WIN, dammit I know they can do it, or 3) have Hackett fire on Shepard's position, destroying the crucible and taking the Starboy with it, weakening the reapers enough that we can finish them off.

Sacrifice is only worth it if you actually SAVE SOMEONE with it. Dying because THE SPACE DEVIL said that you should is NOT worth a damn.

[daveyeisley]

I wonder if the QA testers actually got to see the ending before release.... and if they actually did, were they allowed to give feedback... and if they were, how the hell could it have not included some of the criticisms from this thread.... and if it did, why was it not heeded?

That's the brick wall of this issue. The folks who are dissatisfied want to know 'Why was it done this way?"

There are some plausible and reasonable scenarios that, if explained to most folks, they would grudgingly accept. It would need to come from the horse's mouth, but it could help a lot in ways that the extended cut cannot accomplish.

Of course, there are also scenarios that if confirmed, would make it worse. It would make sense to keep quiet in that case.

The problem is, if the reality is the former rather than the latter, keeping quiet makes it *seem* like the latter anyhow.

[Argetfalcon]

Let there be an ending where both SHEPARD and the GETH survive. I don't know how, maybe at the end of destroy the quarians are able to reactivate them and they are all still intelligent if you were able to make peace with them. But make sure THAT HAPPENS.

I CAN NOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH

also redo Tali's face

[Landon7001]

Voodoo-j wrote...

 Where on the box does it say, Absolutely amazing action packed game play with a no win scenario ending that will leave you questioning a highly philosophical matter.  
It's not a game I would play, really get that crap out of your heads, or your next game you publish will flop harder than freddy got fingered.

i strongly disagree  in fact youre simply wrong......some of the most thoughtful, philosophical internal conversations ive ever had have come from music, games{like mass effect 1 and 2}, books and films....in fact art made by those types of srtists is what i look for and respect...and i am one myself{conscious hip hop}

but no.....the me 3 ending was not intellectual or cerebral, it seemed like  it was written by an ape.....

[Landon7001]

i see jaw dropping new plot holes revealed almost daily...for example-synthesis-combines organic and synthetic, but the reapers....ARE ALREADY PARTLY ORGANIC wow so that really works for them......

[3DandBeyond]

Landon7001 wrote...

i see jaw dropping new plot holes revealed almost daily...for example-synthesis-combines organic and synthetic, but the reapers....ARE ALREADY PARTLY ORGANIC wow so that really works for them......

Yes they are or more appropriately synthetic organic constructs.  What that means is that their DNA is not a merged synthetic/organic hybrid DNA but yet in some way they are combined.  True synthesis is what they have always sought and have tried to achieve with the most advanced organic of a cycle. 

In fact, all attempts by every being within ME to create a true synthesis have led to extremely warped, horrific end products.  Consider Project Overlord, the Collector base and organic goo, TIM, and any other attempt at it in the game.  It isn't shown in any positive light-Shepard never sees it as anything good.  Mordin speaks out against it.  Sovereign wants it.  The kid says it's basically perfection-the end goal of evolution. 

[Voodoo-j]

Landon7001 wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

 Where on the box does it say, Absolutely amazing action packed game play with a no win scenario ending that will leave you questioning a highly philosophical matter.  
It's not a game I would play, really get that crap out of your heads, or your next game you publish will flop harder than freddy got fingered.

i strongly disagree  in fact youre simply wrong......some of the most thoughtful, philosophical internal conversations ive ever had have come from music, games{like mass effect 1 and 2}, books and films....in fact art made by those types of srtists is what i look for and respect...and i am one myself{conscious hip hop}

but no.....the me 3 ending was not intellectual or cerebral, it seemed like  it was written by an ape.....

Don't get me wrong, that is the "artistic integrity" that I hear.  It's argued by those that like the ending that it was created as such to make people think about synthetics, human evolution, man vs machine, ect.

What they did is forget the story and the rest of the game, because someone wanted to make a statement, for their vision.  Doing so they failed to tie the series to it, and just plain did it wrong.

And as I said, I purchased a game, entertainment, going by the past years playing many Bioware games, knowing they produce quality, and then this, they screwed the ending so horribly wrong that the quotes listed for the movie I linked really come to mind.  Utter failure.

[Voodoo-j]

Just got done watching Armageddon with the misses (again).
That's a story that ends sad but right.
Shows the human spirit, the Shepard we all played doesn't know how to fail.

If someone is listening, go watch it, and then play the ending of ME3.
If you don't understand how messed up it is after that you truly are missing the human spirit, the fire within our souls that drive us from the stone age to today. The part of us that connected to the ME series, and that part of us that is fighting for a fitting ending.

[The Gman707]

My main problem with the ening isnt the tragic element or the plot holes. I can deal with theses things. Having spent may years watching far eastern cinema i am used to tragic endings and those that watch action films are used to glossing over the odd convenience of plot. My problem is that the ending (and i deliberatly use the singular here) is that it removest the consiquence of choice. I have spent three games carefully assessing each option to choose the response i felt was best only to find that i may as well have stuck the game on narative difficulty and slapped the face buttons with my open palm, it would have achieved the same. Biowares prommised dlc update is one thing but it is not set to adress these issues from what i have read. Stickibg to your artistic vission is admirable,as a designer i wish i could do it all the time, and it works brilliantly for the fine artist. However those of us with end users must considder the needs of those users. Our investment in this universe should pay dividens. Its fine to be tragic but when i have spent 90+ hours being a shinning example of what humanity can be, i expect my sacrifice to count for sonething.

What bioware have delivered with their artistic vission is the destruction of their mythology. What has the potential to be an expandable universe ala star wars or halo has now become a self contained and closed story. What makes the universes of the afore mentioned ip so alluring is the possibilities in them. After their resoective tragedies (weather the death of the jedi or the loss of the master cheif

[The Gman707]

My main problem with the ening isnt the tragic element or the plot holes. I can deal with theses things. Having spent may years watching far eastern cinema i am used to tragic endings and those that watch action films are used to glossing over the odd convenience of plot. My problem is that the ending (and i deliberatly use the singular here) is that it removest the consiquence of choice. I have spent three games carefully assessing each option to choose the response i felt was best only to find that i may as well have stuck the game on narative difficulty and slapped the face buttons with my open palm, it would have achieved the same. Biowares prommised dlc update is one thing but it is not set to adress these issues from what i have read. Stickibg to your artistic vission is admirable,as a designer i wish i could do it all the time, and it works brilliantly for the fine artist. However those of us with end users must considder the needs of those users. Our investment in this universe should pay dividens. Its fine to be tragic but when i have spent 90+ hours being a shinning example of what humanity can be, i expect my sacrifice to count for sonething.

What bioware have delivered with their artistic vission is the destruction of their mythology. What has the potential to be an expandable universe ala star wars or halo has now become a self contained and closed story. What makes the universes of the afore mentioned ip so alluring is the possibilities in them. After their respective tragedies (weather the death of the jedi or the "loss" of the master cheif) the mythology continues largley unchanged, open for the remaining characters to continue the story. In mass effect we find such monumental change that it creates a whole new focus for the story. Will the universe regain the ability to travel the galaxy, will the crew of the normandy find food and shelter or resort to chaos and cannabilism before dying? Who cares thats not what i signed up for. I wanted star trek and what ive got is cast away.