Ce sujet est fermé
Surfed the web a lttle and found this:
The session lineup for August's GDC Europe 2012 in Cologne continues to expand this week, with BioWare talking post-release DLC lessons from Mass Effect and Dragon Age, plus Bigpoint on free-to-play game design and YoYo Games on HTML5 programming.
These talks all fall within GDC Europe's Main Conference, which takes place Monday through Wednesday, August 13-15, 2012 at the Congress-Centrum Ost Koelnmesse in Cologne, Germany.
The full details on these new sessions are as follows:
- In the show's Business and Marketing track, BioWare's director of online development, Fernando Melo ( Dragon Age, Mass Effect franchises), will outline how the major studio has organized and crafted a long-term plan for each of its major new releases.
The session, titled "Leveling Up Your AAA game - BioWare's Post Release Content Insights," will examine downloadable content strategies, online game passes, microtransactions, and more, and Melo will argue why all of these additions can augment a game's initial sales and make a big-budget title far more successful.
link: http://www.gamasutra..._HTML5talks.php
Many have noted that From Ashes DLC provided much needed focus and development to the ME story that it felt like a core game character had been stripped out of the game and bundled at extra cost to the gamer.
The idea being that the company wanted to not only shift $50 per unit but also make another $20 on top during the release period to boost sale income to $70. Cheeky, but I went with it and made noise about how a game company should not take their customer base for granted, (especially after the ending controversy).
Unfortunately it looks like they are going to be talking about this for future releases too. I'm concerned that BW and other game companies could soon be splitting elements of gameplay out of core game designs and sell them seperately. I don't mind paying for bonuses and extra's but if they want to make consumers pay for little bits of what should be core game content they are going to lose alot of confidence from gamers. And confidence in a company is the first step towards paying them for their product.
On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
Débuté par
Chris Priestly
, mars 15 2012 02:55
Retour en haut
#20952
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 04:47
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
Really?? I mean if they wanted to make more $ why limit the Collectors edition?
#20953
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 04:50
daveyeisley
-
- Members
- 204 messages
To my knowledge, they have not clearly rejected Indoctrination Theory.
I still have some small shreds of hope that the EC can take that ball and run with it, and fill in the holey bits. Part of me will still feel, and agree with the others who feel, a little taken advantage of by the game being released without the content needed to make it 'complete'... but I would still pay them to get what I was hoping for all along.
I know that encourages this tactic, but my desire to punish the tactic is overwhelmed by my desire for my Shepard to have a heroic conclusion to his story. This mitigating factor will not apply, of course, to future releases
A few more things:
1. Speculation on why it happened the way it did.
Back with KotoR, and KotoR2, I am thinking the Bioware folks felt a little handcuffed because the IP they were working with was not their own. Anything they wanted to do with Star Wars could be nixed if Lucasarts didn't think it 'fit'.
Casey's wonderful ideas for Mass Effect solved the issue. Bioware's own IP. They could do whatever they wanted with it. No one could tell them no. Complete freedom and creative control.
Fast forward to Mass Effect 3. The idea of the 'bittersweet' ending. That is obviously something that had always been planned on some level.
My problem is, that desire for 'bittersweet' by whoever made the decision, is based on that person's preference. Even if the team agreed with it, it is still a preference.
What we have at the end of Mass Effect 3, is that preference being forced on us to the exclusion of our own. In a game where *our* preference as players had been able to significantly impact our experience up to that point.
A happy (or just happier) ending would not "betray all the agonizing choices Shepard had to make". That is purely subjective preference and opinion, and I happen to vehemently, categorically disagree with it.
2. The advertising campaign and the ending of Mass Effect 3 bear some similarities to a "Bait-and-Switch".
Sadly, one big difference is that with a bait-and-switch, you can usually 'opt out' before accepting the newly offered item. With Mass Effect 3, we don't have that option because the switch doesn't happen until after we paid and invested time in the item.
I still like the game (would have been 'love', but the ending ruined that), I still play it. I don't want my money back, especially if there is a chance my issues can be corrected. However, because I can't 'opt out' of ME3 at this point, if those issues remain unresolved, then my only recourse really is to 'opt out' of future Bioware products until I can be reasonably certain they will deliver what I want for my money.
3. Sacrifice, and heroism.
The final scene with Shepard and the Catalyst is almost completely devoid of emotional content. There is no catharsis at all, except maybe the music after the choice is made. Its emotionally flat for the most part.
In the mood and atmosphere of that scene, there is no sense of Shepard not wanting to die, struggling internally against the idea that if he doesn't sacrifice himself the people he cares about will suffer and die. There isn't enough tension. There isn't a sense of desperation. It doesn't come off as the Last Gloriously Heroic Sacrifice of Shepard's existence.
It tends to leave a good many people empty, many others confused, some angry, some pensive... but almost nobody seems to feel the intended 'bittersweet' feeling.
That last scene has to show Shepard being emotional. It has to showcase some internal conflict. It has to show how this is a Big Deal to Shepard. When Shepard makes up his mind, the possible reasons for his decision should be highlighted in an emotionally touching way.
Shepard deserved a loving send-off. If the only way was to die to save the Galaxy, the emotional gravity of the choice needs to be showcased to the audience in grand fashion. Its got to have impact, its got to pull at the heart strings.
In order to accomplish all that, there needs to be more tension and emotion from Shepard earlier in the interaction, and the cinematics need to pay loving homage to this legendary figure as he gives up his existence, hopes, dreams, and future.
I still have some small shreds of hope that the EC can take that ball and run with it, and fill in the holey bits. Part of me will still feel, and agree with the others who feel, a little taken advantage of by the game being released without the content needed to make it 'complete'... but I would still pay them to get what I was hoping for all along.
I know that encourages this tactic, but my desire to punish the tactic is overwhelmed by my desire for my Shepard to have a heroic conclusion to his story. This mitigating factor will not apply, of course, to future releases
A few more things:
1. Speculation on why it happened the way it did.
Back with KotoR, and KotoR2, I am thinking the Bioware folks felt a little handcuffed because the IP they were working with was not their own. Anything they wanted to do with Star Wars could be nixed if Lucasarts didn't think it 'fit'.
Casey's wonderful ideas for Mass Effect solved the issue. Bioware's own IP. They could do whatever they wanted with it. No one could tell them no. Complete freedom and creative control.
Fast forward to Mass Effect 3. The idea of the 'bittersweet' ending. That is obviously something that had always been planned on some level.
My problem is, that desire for 'bittersweet' by whoever made the decision, is based on that person's preference. Even if the team agreed with it, it is still a preference.
What we have at the end of Mass Effect 3, is that preference being forced on us to the exclusion of our own. In a game where *our* preference as players had been able to significantly impact our experience up to that point.
A happy (or just happier) ending would not "betray all the agonizing choices Shepard had to make". That is purely subjective preference and opinion, and I happen to vehemently, categorically disagree with it.
2. The advertising campaign and the ending of Mass Effect 3 bear some similarities to a "Bait-and-Switch".
Sadly, one big difference is that with a bait-and-switch, you can usually 'opt out' before accepting the newly offered item. With Mass Effect 3, we don't have that option because the switch doesn't happen until after we paid and invested time in the item.
I still like the game (would have been 'love', but the ending ruined that), I still play it. I don't want my money back, especially if there is a chance my issues can be corrected. However, because I can't 'opt out' of ME3 at this point, if those issues remain unresolved, then my only recourse really is to 'opt out' of future Bioware products until I can be reasonably certain they will deliver what I want for my money.
3. Sacrifice, and heroism.
The final scene with Shepard and the Catalyst is almost completely devoid of emotional content. There is no catharsis at all, except maybe the music after the choice is made. Its emotionally flat for the most part.
In the mood and atmosphere of that scene, there is no sense of Shepard not wanting to die, struggling internally against the idea that if he doesn't sacrifice himself the people he cares about will suffer and die. There isn't enough tension. There isn't a sense of desperation. It doesn't come off as the Last Gloriously Heroic Sacrifice of Shepard's existence.
It tends to leave a good many people empty, many others confused, some angry, some pensive... but almost nobody seems to feel the intended 'bittersweet' feeling.
That last scene has to show Shepard being emotional. It has to showcase some internal conflict. It has to show how this is a Big Deal to Shepard. When Shepard makes up his mind, the possible reasons for his decision should be highlighted in an emotionally touching way.
Shepard deserved a loving send-off. If the only way was to die to save the Galaxy, the emotional gravity of the choice needs to be showcased to the audience in grand fashion. Its got to have impact, its got to pull at the heart strings.
In order to accomplish all that, there needs to be more tension and emotion from Shepard earlier in the interaction, and the cinematics need to pay loving homage to this legendary figure as he gives up his existence, hopes, dreams, and future.
Modifié par daveyeisley, 21 mai 2012 - 04:56 .
#20954
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 04:59
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
only recourse really is to 'opt out' of future Bioware products until I can be reasonably certain they will deliver what I want for my money
I'm already at that point, they have lost my confidence, even if it means I don't get the limited edition. I'd rather have a standard edition of something I enjoy, than a limit edition POS.
I'm already at that point, they have lost my confidence, even if it means I don't get the limited edition. I'd rather have a standard edition of something I enjoy, than a limit edition POS.
#20955
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:00
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
Perhaps that's why they did a limited run, they are trying to dangle the carrot. What they don't realize is that most gamers are quite intelligent and will quickly revolt with their pocket book.
#20956
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:03
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
I'm starting to see a trend in their thinking, and I don't like it.
Modifié par Voodoo-j, 21 mai 2012 - 05:03 .
#20957
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:10
daveyeisley
-
- Members
- 204 messages
It strikes me as poignant that Lieutenant Victus' sacrifice came off as more heroic than Shepard's.
You could see him struggling to stay alive as he tried to accomplish his goal.
You could see the effect on Victus when he realized what he had to do.
The frantic desperation faded. It made him sad, yet proud and calm all at the same time.
You could see in his face the brief but critical moment when he realized:
"this is the end of me, but it is the only way, and it will be worth it."
You got to see how a hero dies.
The extended cut simply must give Shepard that same treatment. I daresay on a grander scale, as well.
You could see him struggling to stay alive as he tried to accomplish his goal.
You could see the effect on Victus when he realized what he had to do.
The frantic desperation faded. It made him sad, yet proud and calm all at the same time.
You could see in his face the brief but critical moment when he realized:
"this is the end of me, but it is the only way, and it will be worth it."
You got to see how a hero dies.
The extended cut simply must give Shepard that same treatment. I daresay on a grander scale, as well.
Modifié par daveyeisley, 21 mai 2012 - 05:20 .
#20958
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:10
Redbelle
-
- Members
- 5 399 messages
Has anyone noticed if DLC content gets cheaper the further from the release date it gets?
Generally I don't buy games on the day of release. (ME3 was the exception based on the strength of ME2......... not doing that for ME4 based on the ending for ME3).
Generally I don't buy games on the day of release. (ME3 was the exception based on the strength of ME2......... not doing that for ME4 based on the ending for ME3).
#20959
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:28
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
Redbelle wrote...
Has anyone noticed if DLC content gets cheaper the further from the release date it gets?
Generally I don't buy games on the day of release. (ME3 was the exception based on the strength of ME2......... not doing that for ME4 based on the ending for ME3).
I don't think so, if I recall the Shadow Broker was priced higher than some of the others, and it was well worth it.
#20960
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:31
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
VRtheTrooper wrote...
i also agree with the synthesis portion. its a rational decision for the good of ALL life, not just organic. (many people that believe IT will disagree)
You need to read what Mordin says about Synthesis in ME2, when discussing the Collector's physiology. It's the part where Mordin sings. He clearly describes it as creating stagnation, destroying what makes life best, and so on.
It is also the stated purpose of Sovereign and Saren. The kid seems to like it as well. And it is a one person decision that affects trillions of beings, giving them no say. It alters DNA in ways Shepard does not even ask about-so we have no context nor does Shepard with which to make an informed decision. But, even so any answer Shepard could get as to what it does is what the evil little glow boy would give and not to be trusted.
It destroys life as it is and creates no reason for beings to try.
#20961
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:31
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
#20962
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:33
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
daveyeisley wrote...
It strikes me as poignant that Lieutenant Victus' sacrifice came off as more heroic than Shepard's.
You could see him struggling to stay alive as he tried to accomplish his goal.
You could see the effect on Victus when he realized what he had to do.
The frantic desperation faded. It made him sad, yet proud and calm all at the same time.
You could see in his face the brief but critical moment when he realized:
"this is the end of me, but it is the only way, and it will be worth it."
You got to see how a hero dies.
The extended cut simply must give Shepard that same treatment. I daresay on a grander scale, as well.
Yes, and afterward you had some context as to what that would mean for his legacy-how he would be viewed from that moment on. It's yet another story of redemption within the game. And Victus was not even a major character.
#20963
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:38
Landon7001
-
- Members
- 768 messages
Jim-an-old-gamer says:
01:07am April 17 2012
Well, I finished ME3 last week and then spent a week in my spare time reading all about the travesty that was the ME3 ending. Yup, it was beyond awful. Here are my thoughts and it's not pretty…
I’m an older gamer; probably been gaming since before many of you were born. I started in 1975 on mainframes playing Star Trek on hard-copy terminals (yup, that is not a misprint). I am a huge gamer and build my own custom rigs to play on and do consoles too. There isn’t a game that matters in over three decades that I haven’t played. I love gaming; I know gaming. I’m in 49 Steam groups. That’s my background so you know…
I’m not going to rehash all the things that have been said by many others so very well. I’ll tell you that, to me, this was the worst ending in the history of gaming. I mean that not in an absolute sense, but that the delta between the expectations we had after the first 2 games, and the impossibly horrible ending of ME3 is the greatest in my recollection. Plain and simple, the people at Bioware and EA lied to us all. Flat out lied. We were given a great sandbox to play in and we were allowed to take this story in many directions based on our play. That was one of the defining aspects of the game. The first two games were terrific and while playing the third, I was about half-way through it but hadn’t seen all the grief about ME3 on the Internet as yet. At that point I stopped and took a break and said to my wife that this was the first gaming experience that could approach the Half-Life world in quality, emotion, combat and fun. It was awesome.
And then they took it all away. Like many of the gamers worldwide I had invested a ton of time and money into this franchise. And for one of the very few times in my 36+ years of gaming, I actually cared for this crew. I know that a non-gamer may not understand this, but think of it like the Harry Potter books or the LOTR trilogy. I cared about those souls I read about many times in Tolkien’s books. I felt this way about Shepard and his gang.
For all the reasons so well stated in Angry Joe’s 10 reasons on his WEBsite, I couldn’t agree more that BW/EA really blew this one on a grand scale. I mean I’m not sure that I have ever seen so much negative reaction to a game EVER! And it’s all because they did not respect the fans, the canon or the structure they had built. I can’t imagine who the genius was at BW/EA that green-lighted this mess. And it’s laughable how they are “standing by their choices”; it’s laughable. I am quite sure that there are employees are BW that knew this was a mistake of grand proportions and kept quiet to protect their jobs. Who was the Einstein that made this happen? And then they try to make all this negative controversy a marketing feature? I mean it’s just laughable. I only hope that people who may think about purchasing this series read about all of this on the Internet. Those who suggest a boycott may have something. Nothing else is likely to work. I’m not buying BW/EA ever again without the correct fix (not cut scenes…).
You just know that it is not going to get fixed the way all the fans would like. The suits and money men won’t support it even though they have made a bazillion dollars on this franchise. And that Einstein at BW would have to admit they made the biggest dumb ending decision in gaming history and would you do that? Naaah, he will keep quiet and hope it all blows over. A few cut scenes aren’t going to fix it. We want ME3 to end the same way ME2 ended; with choices and closure. I had hoped that BW would offer to give the code to the fans so someone could program the correct ending structure. You can bet they won’t do that either.
And I have a few words for all the “It’s Bioware’s game!, grow up” types. You’re all wet; all of you. You don’t know gaming and you obviously don’t care about gaming. It is not like a book or a movie. Those are fixed objects; the fallout of someone’s mind. An RPG game is an interactive experience and it is designed specifically for the gamer to interact with. The designers know this and build the gaming world for this. Do we sit around and tell you that it’s stupid to do whatever it is you like and get upset when those in THAT world screw with YOUR world? Don’t tread on our feet and we won’t tread on yours’. Butt out if you can’t think of something constructive to say. These are our feelings and if you don’t like it then go to Hell. I am as pissed at all of you as I am at Bioware.
In the end, this is what we have; Bioware took one of the finest sci-fi gaming franchises of this generation and almost created a masterpiece. It was almost Half-Life quality. It could have been amazing. And they tore it to shreds in the end. They really screwed the gaming community and especially the hard-core fans. Tens or hundreds of thousands feel various combinations of regret, anger and bewilderment. But what it really is, is sad. It is sad for the gamers; it is sad for Bioware’s team who almost made it happen, but then ruined it. It is just sad. I’m sure most will move on and try and put it behind us. I mean it’s a game. But we had really invested a lot in the ME world. I’m sure that whatever your hobbies are, that there are passionate people who aren’t happy when someone screws with your world.
I put the third CD back in the case and put it up on the shelf with the first two. And as I did that, all of this was on my mind. I deleted the three games from my gaming system along with Origin’s stuff and I won’t game for a while. I’m just not there. Bioware could be right that eventually it may blow over for them. But we won’t forget…
Regards,
An old guy named Jim
Spam (0)
THIS
01:07am April 17 2012
Well, I finished ME3 last week and then spent a week in my spare time reading all about the travesty that was the ME3 ending. Yup, it was beyond awful. Here are my thoughts and it's not pretty…
I’m an older gamer; probably been gaming since before many of you were born. I started in 1975 on mainframes playing Star Trek on hard-copy terminals (yup, that is not a misprint). I am a huge gamer and build my own custom rigs to play on and do consoles too. There isn’t a game that matters in over three decades that I haven’t played. I love gaming; I know gaming. I’m in 49 Steam groups. That’s my background so you know…
I’m not going to rehash all the things that have been said by many others so very well. I’ll tell you that, to me, this was the worst ending in the history of gaming. I mean that not in an absolute sense, but that the delta between the expectations we had after the first 2 games, and the impossibly horrible ending of ME3 is the greatest in my recollection. Plain and simple, the people at Bioware and EA lied to us all. Flat out lied. We were given a great sandbox to play in and we were allowed to take this story in many directions based on our play. That was one of the defining aspects of the game. The first two games were terrific and while playing the third, I was about half-way through it but hadn’t seen all the grief about ME3 on the Internet as yet. At that point I stopped and took a break and said to my wife that this was the first gaming experience that could approach the Half-Life world in quality, emotion, combat and fun. It was awesome.
And then they took it all away. Like many of the gamers worldwide I had invested a ton of time and money into this franchise. And for one of the very few times in my 36+ years of gaming, I actually cared for this crew. I know that a non-gamer may not understand this, but think of it like the Harry Potter books or the LOTR trilogy. I cared about those souls I read about many times in Tolkien’s books. I felt this way about Shepard and his gang.
For all the reasons so well stated in Angry Joe’s 10 reasons on his WEBsite, I couldn’t agree more that BW/EA really blew this one on a grand scale. I mean I’m not sure that I have ever seen so much negative reaction to a game EVER! And it’s all because they did not respect the fans, the canon or the structure they had built. I can’t imagine who the genius was at BW/EA that green-lighted this mess. And it’s laughable how they are “standing by their choices”; it’s laughable. I am quite sure that there are employees are BW that knew this was a mistake of grand proportions and kept quiet to protect their jobs. Who was the Einstein that made this happen? And then they try to make all this negative controversy a marketing feature? I mean it’s just laughable. I only hope that people who may think about purchasing this series read about all of this on the Internet. Those who suggest a boycott may have something. Nothing else is likely to work. I’m not buying BW/EA ever again without the correct fix (not cut scenes…).
You just know that it is not going to get fixed the way all the fans would like. The suits and money men won’t support it even though they have made a bazillion dollars on this franchise. And that Einstein at BW would have to admit they made the biggest dumb ending decision in gaming history and would you do that? Naaah, he will keep quiet and hope it all blows over. A few cut scenes aren’t going to fix it. We want ME3 to end the same way ME2 ended; with choices and closure. I had hoped that BW would offer to give the code to the fans so someone could program the correct ending structure. You can bet they won’t do that either.
And I have a few words for all the “It’s Bioware’s game!, grow up” types. You’re all wet; all of you. You don’t know gaming and you obviously don’t care about gaming. It is not like a book or a movie. Those are fixed objects; the fallout of someone’s mind. An RPG game is an interactive experience and it is designed specifically for the gamer to interact with. The designers know this and build the gaming world for this. Do we sit around and tell you that it’s stupid to do whatever it is you like and get upset when those in THAT world screw with YOUR world? Don’t tread on our feet and we won’t tread on yours’. Butt out if you can’t think of something constructive to say. These are our feelings and if you don’t like it then go to Hell. I am as pissed at all of you as I am at Bioware.
In the end, this is what we have; Bioware took one of the finest sci-fi gaming franchises of this generation and almost created a masterpiece. It was almost Half-Life quality. It could have been amazing. And they tore it to shreds in the end. They really screwed the gaming community and especially the hard-core fans. Tens or hundreds of thousands feel various combinations of regret, anger and bewilderment. But what it really is, is sad. It is sad for the gamers; it is sad for Bioware’s team who almost made it happen, but then ruined it. It is just sad. I’m sure most will move on and try and put it behind us. I mean it’s a game. But we had really invested a lot in the ME world. I’m sure that whatever your hobbies are, that there are passionate people who aren’t happy when someone screws with your world.
I put the third CD back in the case and put it up on the shelf with the first two. And as I did that, all of this was on my mind. I deleted the three games from my gaming system along with Origin’s stuff and I won’t game for a while. I’m just not there. Bioware could be right that eventually it may blow over for them. But we won’t forget…
Regards,
An old guy named Jim
Spam (0)
THIS
#20964
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:40
daveyeisley
-
- Members
- 204 messages
3DandBeyond wrote...
daveyeisley wrote...
It strikes me as poignant that Lieutenant Victus' sacrifice came off as more heroic than Shepard's.
You could see him struggling to stay alive as he tried to accomplish his goal.
You could see the effect on Victus when he realized what he had to do.
The frantic desperation faded. It made him sad, yet proud and calm all at the same time.
You could see in his face the brief but critical moment when he realized:
"this is the end of me, but it is the only way, and it will be worth it."
You got to see how a hero dies.
The extended cut simply must give Shepard that same treatment. I daresay on a grander scale, as well.
Yes, and afterward you had some context as to what that would mean for his legacy-how he would be viewed from that moment on. It's yet another story of redemption within the game. And Victus was not even a major character.
Exactly. Minor character, minor (optional!) plot point, and they got it right.
Somehow the drama of Shepard's final choice.... so much larger in scope.... so much more profound in meaning.... they didn't get the mood right.... the tone.... it didn't feel heroic.....and they didn't give the legacy proper treatment.
My Shepard was a War Hero origin. When I asked Hackett, "Why me?", he said that the people I had saved on Elysium still thanked me by name.
What about the entire Galaxy of species I united in a common cause of survival, and then sacrificed myself to save from the reapers?
Why can't I get to see how they all reacted to my choice? (Extended Cut will surely fix this, right?)
#20965
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:46
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
Basically what Bioware said about Indoctrination theory was this:
They had originally considered it (as well as other things) for the ending, but then it was too complicated so they decided against it. And they said it was not a part of any gameplay for the ending. Make of that what you will. They of course could have added narrative about IT, but in fact they already did-TIM's story and ending.
Unless they had always planned to have the ending be within some DLC then they knowingly released a game without an ending.
Even so, there are people that cannot get DLC due to financial reasons (can't afford an internet connection or their connnection is bad or they can't get DLC in their country) and no game ever should be released without an ending especially if it's intended to come later on in DLC. It is the same argument for why multiplayer should not, but is a prerequisite in order to be successful in single player. And that is stated where any 360 owner can find it. The idea that games can be released incomplete really speaks to companies taking fans for granted, if that was what was originally planned. But, then again also think of it as them trying to make you pay to get an ending.
I believe the indoctrination discussion was in the paid for app, the Final Hours and when I can bring myself to look it up again, I will.
And it's true there is no emotion at the end. Neither Shepard nor the player feel anything whether Shepard faces certain death or that fantastically happy gasp, I survived moment. It happens so quickly and Shepard acts so moronically, that s/he is anything but heroic in making a choice. If Shepard chooses Destroy, many have pointed out it makes so much sense to walk toward the thingy that will go boom. Oh, but you have to hit the imaginary square target in order for it to go boom. Ok, yeah right.
They had originally considered it (as well as other things) for the ending, but then it was too complicated so they decided against it. And they said it was not a part of any gameplay for the ending. Make of that what you will. They of course could have added narrative about IT, but in fact they already did-TIM's story and ending.
Unless they had always planned to have the ending be within some DLC then they knowingly released a game without an ending.
Even so, there are people that cannot get DLC due to financial reasons (can't afford an internet connection or their connnection is bad or they can't get DLC in their country) and no game ever should be released without an ending especially if it's intended to come later on in DLC. It is the same argument for why multiplayer should not, but is a prerequisite in order to be successful in single player. And that is stated where any 360 owner can find it. The idea that games can be released incomplete really speaks to companies taking fans for granted, if that was what was originally planned. But, then again also think of it as them trying to make you pay to get an ending.
I believe the indoctrination discussion was in the paid for app, the Final Hours and when I can bring myself to look it up again, I will.
And it's true there is no emotion at the end. Neither Shepard nor the player feel anything whether Shepard faces certain death or that fantastically happy gasp, I survived moment. It happens so quickly and Shepard acts so moronically, that s/he is anything but heroic in making a choice. If Shepard chooses Destroy, many have pointed out it makes so much sense to walk toward the thingy that will go boom. Oh, but you have to hit the imaginary square target in order for it to go boom. Ok, yeah right.
#20966
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:48
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
Undoubtedly felt like Jim, I did play about 20 hours of multiplayer afterwards, trying to justify the money I spent, but I've given up on that as well. Just playing some Halo 2 pc otherwise Minesweeper is all I can muster up at this point.
#20967
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 05:55
AlienShagger
-
- Members
- 43 messages
VRtheTrooper wrote...
i also agree with the synthesis portion. its a rational decision for the good of ALL life, not just organic. (many people that believe IT will disagree)
Synthesis is surrender, the mildest option reserved for the weakest souls. No attempt of control and certainly no dissent, Synthesis appeals to your need to have your cake and eat it too.
Synthesis is the metaphore for the real life popular choice to "work from within the system", as many former idealists will tell you once they become placated by the benefits of submission to authority. There is no "within the system" withoug being the system's ****. Sorry, it's the wrong choice philosophically, morally and even just mentally - take the red pill and a fighting chance.
#20968
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:03
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
daveyeisley wrote...
Exactly. Minor character, minor (optional!) plot point, and they got it right.
Somehow the drama of Shepard's final choice.... so much larger in scope.... so much more profound in meaning.... they didn't get the mood right.... the tone.... it didn't feel heroic.....and they didn't give the legacy proper treatment.
My Shepard was a War Hero origin. When I asked Hackett, "Why me?", he said that the people I had saved on Elysium still thanked me by name.
What about the entire Galaxy of species I united in a common cause of survival, and then sacrificed myself to save from the reapers?
Why can't I get to see how they all reacted to my choice? (Extended Cut will surely fix this, right?)
Well, you know it's like this:
Minor character (the kid in the beginning) Shepard is hit hard emotionally. Has nightmares about it and tells others (Garrus, I think and hints at it to Liara) that this haunts him/her. Big dramatic heart tug attempt.
Major character (Anderson) gets shot by you (Shepard) and Shepard seems to feel nothing.
Major character (Thane) dies and Shepard is expressionless.
Major character (Mordin) sacrifices himself and Shepard is expressionless.
I think the player seems to feel more about these things than Shepard does. Apparently major things in the game didn't matter as much as minor things, so it makes sense to pull this star kid, possibly a being of light from some minor codex entry and make him the major character in the last 5 minutes. It all makes sense now.
#20969
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:10
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
Voodoo-j wrote...
Undoubtedly felt like Jim, I did play about 20 hours of multiplayer afterwards, trying to justify the money I spent, but I've given up on that as well. Just playing some Halo 2 pc otherwise Minesweeper is all I can muster up at this point.
Well, makes sense. MP was ok fun for awhile, but it gets tedious. Also a lot of random stuff keeps happening. In many games recently when you have to shut down 4 indoctrination devices or whatever they are, we only shut down 3, the game says we failed, it showed that we only got 3, and then acted as if we were successful.
And then usually you use up credits to get some gear and something stupid happens in the game so you can't get to the end of the mission-so foe is still alive but in an area that's inaccessible. Or it just fails to move onto the next wave. I also have played games where it will not give me credit for killing foes. I get some minor assist points for taking down Banshees, Atlases, and so on even when I clearly destroyed them single-handedly since everyone else is dead or in another area of the map.
And then it ends up getting annoying that some people play as if the whole thing is just team deathmatch and they don't help do anything else at all. The whole idea of making it necessary just irks me.
#20970
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:13
daveyeisley
-
- Members
- 204 messages
AlienShagger wrote...
Synthesis is surrender, the mildest option reserved for the weakest souls. No attempt of control and certainly no dissent, Synthesis appeals to your need to have your cake and eat it too.
Synthesis is the metaphore for the real life popular choice to "work from within the system", as many former idealists will tell you once they become placated by the benefits of submission to authority. There is no "within the system" withoug being the system's ****. Sorry, it's the wrong choice philosophically, morally and even just mentally - take the red pill and a fighting chance.
While I see, and can understand where you are coming from with this, I personally don't see Synthesis quite the same way.
I don't think its 'weak' to desire balance. Sometimes, it is the hardest road, to avoid extremes. Judging the philosphy behind it is too subjective and situational to be meaningful. There is good and bad involved (like with anything), but there is no absolute weakness or strength involved.
I do agree that Synthesis is morally deplorable.
#20971
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:19
jasonhunt
-
- Members
- 1 messages
I ended ME3 Yearsterday.
The game is really good until the the end: i mean,i don't want the final where shepard win and all are happy,but guys something like the ME1 final with saren with an ''overwhelming'' enemy and an epic final battle where maybe shepard is able to save galaxy but die for it?
It's understandable that shepard can die against a powerful enemy like the reaper but not like that....
And also,why shoud i take a powerfull army with Asari,turian,Elcor and everyone in the galaxy when at the end is uselesss have a powerfull army or an army with the minimum requirement to create the final weapon?
And why in the conclusional video of the game the normandy is escaping with all your crew when they where all employees in the counter attack to retake earth?
I have the feeling that the ending was made in five minutes while most of the energy were involved in the first part of the game.
The game is really good until the the end: i mean,i don't want the final where shepard win and all are happy,but guys something like the ME1 final with saren with an ''overwhelming'' enemy and an epic final battle where maybe shepard is able to save galaxy but die for it?
It's understandable that shepard can die against a powerful enemy like the reaper but not like that....
And also,why shoud i take a powerfull army with Asari,turian,Elcor and everyone in the galaxy when at the end is uselesss have a powerfull army or an army with the minimum requirement to create the final weapon?
And why in the conclusional video of the game the normandy is escaping with all your crew when they where all employees in the counter attack to retake earth?
I have the feeling that the ending was made in five minutes while most of the energy were involved in the first part of the game.
#20972
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:19
daveyeisley
-
- Members
- 204 messages
3DandBeyond wrote...
Well, you know it's like this:
Minor character (the kid in the beginning) Shepard is hit hard emotionally. Has nightmares about it and tells others (Garrus, I think and hints at it to Liara) that this haunts him/her. Big dramatic heart tug attempt.
Major character (Anderson) gets shot by you (Shepard) and Shepard seems to feel nothing.
Major character (Thane) dies and Shepard is expressionless.
Major character (Mordin) sacrifices himself and Shepard is expressionless.
I think the player seems to feel more about these things than Shepard does. Apparently major things in the game didn't matter as much as minor things, so it makes sense to pull this star kid, possibly a being of light from some minor codex entry and make him the major character in the last 5 minutes. It all makes sense now.
I ran thru the game doing a 'speed run'.... finished it in just over 17 hours played ignoring most of the optional content and making almost all renegade choices....
When I argued with mordin at the Shroud and he admtted that he made a mistake... Wow.
What he said about the Big Picture hit home. Should hit home with the big dogs at EA and Bioware, too....
"Big picture made of little pictures..."
You have to get all the minor ones right (which they mostly did, yeah), but also the major ones, too (which sadly, they didn't).
#20973
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:24
Voodoo-j
-
- Members
- 312 messages
You know.. I'm not afraid to admit it I wouldn't mind a happy happy ending, but I want more than that, I want an ending that makes sense. I could handle an ending where Shepards LI has to shoot him as he became indoctrinated as a deversion, and finish whats needed to be done. There are so many possibilities, why the uncreative bland ending?? Where is the reason to replay the game.
Don't stop at I don't even want a happy ending, it's beyond that. Don't lower ourselves to it.
I wouldn't mind a happy happy ending, but I want more than that, I want an ending that makes sense. I could handle an ending where Shepards LI has to shoot him as he became indoctrinated as a deversion, and finish whats needed to be done. There are so many possibilities, why the uncreative bland ending?? Where is the reason to replay the game.Don't stop at I don't even want a happy ending, it's beyond that. Don't lower ourselves to it.
Modifié par Voodoo-j, 21 mai 2012 - 06:25 .
#20974
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:25
3DandBeyond
-
- Members
- 7 579 messages
@Landon7001,
I am in complete agreement with you on this one. I have only a few years fewer experience playing games than you (Commodore Vic20 on into Infocom text games and more).
It isn't that this is necessarily the worst ending ever (I think it is, though), but it is in the context of some of the best games ever made. This is without question the series of games, the gaming experience I have waited for all my life. I wanted real characters with real decisions and seemingly real minds, even if I knew there was some artifice to it of necessity. The illusion of choice was suspended and I believed I was making choices. So much the better that it was set in Space and that I could fire a gun here and there and everywhere. It was the game to end all games.
Generally, I am not quite so disappointed when a game fails ending-wise because I am not so emotionally invested. They end, oh well. But that is exactly the opposite of what this is. It's like taking some ultimate piece of artwork and saying it's only fit to be shown in someone's bathroom, hanging above the toilet. The contrast between game and ending is so much greater than occurs in any other game that it does become the worst ending ever in all of gaming. And I, like you have played literally thousands of games in my life.
I will also say that no game before in my life ever made me want to see just what the ending was as much as this. I thought it would be like opening the best gift ever and afterward the gift would keep on giving because I would jump at the chance to play again. I got dirty socks for my gift.
The problem for me is that this has now permeated all gaming. I've lost some interest in it all. I'm stuck up in the Citadel, looking at a glowing stupid fake child and wondering what new game out there will ever be as wonderful to play and disappoint so much at the end.
I got some free games with my new 360. I have Skyrim, haven't finished Fallout:New Vegas. I have literally hundreds of games right now that I could play, but I haven't got the desire. This is a first for me since I started playing games. It's also the strangest thing that this game has done to me. I know it sounds very dramatic and I don't mean it to, but it's true. It's just like the best game ever with the worst ending ever ruined other games for me.
I am in complete agreement with you on this one. I have only a few years fewer experience playing games than you (Commodore Vic20 on into Infocom text games and more).
It isn't that this is necessarily the worst ending ever (I think it is, though), but it is in the context of some of the best games ever made. This is without question the series of games, the gaming experience I have waited for all my life. I wanted real characters with real decisions and seemingly real minds, even if I knew there was some artifice to it of necessity. The illusion of choice was suspended and I believed I was making choices. So much the better that it was set in Space and that I could fire a gun here and there and everywhere. It was the game to end all games.
Generally, I am not quite so disappointed when a game fails ending-wise because I am not so emotionally invested. They end, oh well. But that is exactly the opposite of what this is. It's like taking some ultimate piece of artwork and saying it's only fit to be shown in someone's bathroom, hanging above the toilet. The contrast between game and ending is so much greater than occurs in any other game that it does become the worst ending ever in all of gaming. And I, like you have played literally thousands of games in my life.
I will also say that no game before in my life ever made me want to see just what the ending was as much as this. I thought it would be like opening the best gift ever and afterward the gift would keep on giving because I would jump at the chance to play again. I got dirty socks for my gift.
The problem for me is that this has now permeated all gaming. I've lost some interest in it all. I'm stuck up in the Citadel, looking at a glowing stupid fake child and wondering what new game out there will ever be as wonderful to play and disappoint so much at the end.
I got some free games with my new 360. I have Skyrim, haven't finished Fallout:New Vegas. I have literally hundreds of games right now that I could play, but I haven't got the desire. This is a first for me since I started playing games. It's also the strangest thing that this game has done to me. I know it sounds very dramatic and I don't mean it to, but it's true. It's just like the best game ever with the worst ending ever ruined other games for me.
#20975
Posté 21 mai 2012 - 06:26
LiarasShield
-
- Members
- 6 924 messages
BlueStorm83 wrote...
But, BioWare, DON'T DO THAT. Remove the Starboy's NONSENSICAL ramblings, either remove him altogether or at least add the option to deny his requests and 1) kill him, 2) commit suicide and let the fleet fight the reapers and WIN, dammit I know they can do it, or 3) have Hackett fire on Shepard's position, destroying the crucible and taking the Starboy with it, weakening the reapers enough that we can finish them off.
Sacrifice is only worth it if you actually SAVE SOMEONE with it. Dying because THE SPACE DEVIL said that you should is NOT worth a damn.
Indeed bluestorm we think exactly the same when it comes to this
