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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#21001
3DandBeyond

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daveyeisley wrote...

Didn't mean to imply that we should all settle for EC making shepard's sacrifice more heroic.

I meant more that, sacrifice is a valid outcome but should be portrayed more dramatically.

I still contend that there should be more wildly varying outcomes based on previous choices, including a happy, if perhaps imperfect, outcome where the reapers are defeated, the jackass who has been playing god is destroyed (IE. Catalyst), and Shepard survives to settle down with his love interest.


Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I just fail to see how a game that can contain something as totally satisfying and sad as the genophage cure battle on Tuchanka (there's a reaper in my way, Wrex), can have this ending and that someone can see the two and think the ending is just fine.

Heroic is what Mordin did and how it was portrayed was amazing, sad, satifying, and noble.  I think a heroic sacrifice done poignantly can be better than any happy ending done badly.  I of course think the ending should contain sacrifice and total victory in differing degrees because that was how we played the game.  I fully believed that because I was doing things along the way that mattered and were sometimes hard for me to do, that the ending would make note of that.  It ignores it completely.

#21002
InLoveWithTaliZorah

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This video says a lot.


#21003
Voodoo-j

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InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

This video says a lot.


I didn't follow alot of what was said before, they had the first 2 games and other ones I had played, I had every confidence the game would be awesome.  Even after hearing about the ending, I still wanted to form my own opinion.  I can't believe they said all of these things.

ARE THEY INDOCTRINATED????

There is no fricken way that the words that came out of their mouth can be mistaken for the end result.

I still say the ending buckled under pressure of time maybe budget as well.
The only way they can recover *in my eyes* is if they come clean.
I'm not an idiot, I am guessing they are not either.  Why continue the ruse.
Gamers respect open and honest devs.  Hell I've bought crap games because I knew what I was buying was exactly what it was.  The devs completely open and honest and active on their forums.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 21 mai 2012 - 11:56 .


#21004
Landon7001

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I say damn bioware for crafting characters and romances we love so much only to have shepard die.......there MUST be an ending where shepard lives, w/ his LI. PERIOD. and wy do u ppl care so much what gaming media say about you?? seriously, do you actually respect them? DO YOU THINK THEYRE ACTUALLY INFORMED, OR KNOW ABOUT THAT WHICH THEY CRITICIZE OR KNOW WHAT THEYRE TALKING ABOUT........seriously

#21005
3DandBeyond

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InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

This video says a lot.

Best example of how much contempt they had for the truth and then to have the audacity to be aghast that players are upset. 

This is one of the oldest tricks in human nature.  Someone that lies to you when called out for lying, goes on the attack.  Great business strategy, but it's worse.  If they indeed just love ME as fans do, then they should have wanted to do all the things they promised and they should have found a way to do it.  It would have been very easy to go to EA and say they can't finish the game in the time allotted, so they need it to instead carry over into ME4.  And present it as a win-win.  A chance to keep fans' attention and get more money out of the series.  And the ability to create Omega sidequest DLC as well as other more in depth DLC.  And then get the buzz going.  The ending is too big for just one game.  Fans would have eaten it up.  And EA would have seen the money potential.

I'm not buying all this stuff that says they had no say in it.  What happened is the alternate ending got leaked and instead of just going with it and seeing it as a sign that fans were eager for the game, they got mad and threw a fit.  And they themselves decided to create a different quickie ending with very little thought.  They made it so incomprehensible and wrapped it in a phony intellectual aura in order to try and make it seem beyond reproach.  It was esoteric and sad so it had to be good.  They thought people would be so in awe and would be speculating what the higher meaning was that they'd overlook the ABC choices, the kid's stupidity, the substitution of some phony for the real Shepard, and the lack of a real ending, because everyone would be so amazed at how it piqued their imagination.  But by and large most people, yes most people can see through this.

#21006
BlueStorm83

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---  Having Shepard kill himself, or have Hackett fire on his position, wouldn't be a selfish suicide, it would be a selfless suicide.  He would remain true to himself, and not impose his will on any other lifeforms (transforming every living thing or even controlling the reapers.  They have Free Will (or at least they did before the Catalyst) and you can't take that away, that's worse than death.  Just kill them :)  He would put his faith in all the friends and allies that he'd recruited.  Especially by destroying the Catalyst, he would give real hope to the Galaxy: without the Catalyst, the paradigm would be shifted, and maybe the cycles wouldn't repeat again.

---  Synthesis is not for the good of all life.  It's not for the good of anyone.  If what I am is abhorent or not viable, and you change me to be something acceptable or viable, then I am dead, and some new... THING is walking around wearing my face.  I am me, and remaining myself is the sacred right of every living thing.

---  Synthesis was first brought up as a topic not verbally, but surprisingly during the Vision that Shepard had from the beacon on Eden Prime in ME1's first few moments.  Among flashes of Ilos, Teeth, ruined cities... he sees what looks like meat with circuitry on it.  It was utterly disgusting.  To think that is preferable to death is to abhor one's very nature.

---  Many, MANY times, the game has shown us the theme of sacrifice, but only to stand up for what one BELIEVES, not for mere scrabbling survival.  Ashley Williams (Or Kaiden for those of you who banged Ashley and then felt guilty) died insisting that I made the right call.  They died not for survival, but for their oaths and the duty they were proud to do. 
Wrex died (if you sucked at talking) taking a stand to restore his people, not only physically, but to give them their PURPOSE back. 
Thane fought for me and died, knowing that he was sick and would be at a disadvantage, because we were bros. 
Kal'Reegar and his men died heroically in an EMAIL, saving turians, because they were proud to serve because I did the same for them once. 
Mordin died to fix a mistake he made, and also for personal redemption.  He didn't like what he'd become, and he would do whatever it took to return to his happy, singing self, even if it would be only for a few seconds. 
Lt. Victus died because he was a soldier, sure, but also because the way that his prople planted the bomb on Tuchanka was reprehensible.  If it had gone off, who would have known anything?  Tuchanka is a nuclear wasteland!  **** blows up there all the time!  And while REAPERS are wandering around on it?  PLEASE!
Legion died to give his people INDIVIDUALITY.  It was totally unnecessary, they would have "survived" just fine without a sense of self.  But he did it because he knew what it was to be a person, not just a machine, and it was more important to give that gift to others.
EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in Mass Effect 2 goes on a Suicide Mission with Shepard.  None of them expect to come back.  They don't just go because they want to stop the collectors; through the Loyalty Missions you forge a bond, and, as Hackett tells you, they go with you because you are Shepard, and they trust you, and that's worth risking your life for.

In the End, Shepard's "Sacrifices" are all a betrayal of who he is.  A Paragon would never pick Synthesis or Control, or Destroy if it meant the death of BILLIONS of Geth and his own friend EDI.  A Renegade would never pick Synthesis or Control, and he wouldn't pick Destroy simply because a Renegade wouldn't do anything that little ****** suggested.  It just SEEMS to be bad writing (though I admit that it COULD be good writing that was executed in a very poor, very slapdash, very rushed, very craptastic way.)  Which brings me to...

---  Indoctrination Theory.  If this is true, and Synthesis and Control are losing options, and Destroy with a high EMS results in Shep waking up and the fight still going on, we're really not told this...  After the Credits, instead of "I'm Buzz Aldrin, buy DLC," if we had seen a short video that confirmed these things, then the 3 ending "choices" would have been a BREATHTAKING mind****. 

After picking Control, if I'd seen Shepard's face all screwed up like the Illusive Man and Saren, and him gunning down his OWN TEAMMATES, I'd have gasped, fell back on the floor, and been like "MY GOD, WHAT DID I DO!?!?!?" 

If after picking Synthesis, we would see Shepard's half-mechanical body wired into some machinery, and then it pulls back and we see he's part of a new Reaper that proceeds to vaporize the victory fleet that we'd worked SO hard to assemble, and the last thing we see is this new reaper destroy the Normandy, and Joker's lifeless corpse floating in the vaccuum, we'd get a sinking sickness in our stomachs, but it would be a GOOD one; we'd see a sad, horiffic, poignant ending about the soul and free will and all that ****, but we'd know we could reload and try again.

And of course, if after picking Destroy on a high EMS file, if we see Shepard wake up, and a Edi helps him to his feet (to confirm that it was a mind**** and not real) and then he grabs a gun, turns to face the conduit, and then the game just ENDS, we'd all not only accept and even ENJOY the ending, we'd all be ready to BUY MORE DLC AND GAMES!

---  As it stands, I won't be buying more games from BioWare, for the time being, at least..  This isn't a boycott or anything, I just don't trust them to deliver what I like anymore.  It's like when Taco Bell started CAKING Cilantro into their Crunch Wrap Supremes.  Or when my local pizza place started using Fennel in the sauce (YUCK!.)  It used to be great, now I don't enjoy it, and I'm sad, because I wanted more of what I liked and thought I could keep getting.

#21007
BlueStorm83

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Oh, and sorry for the huge post. I had a LONG boring rainy day at the Garden Center I operate today, and that means time to think. Lawls.

#21008
3DandBeyond

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Landon7001 wrote...

I say damn bioware for crafting characters and romances we love so much only to have shepard die.......there MUST be an ending where shepard lives, w/ his LI. PERIOD. and wy do u ppl care so much what gaming media say about you?? seriously, do you actually respect them? DO YOU THINK THEYRE ACTUALLY INFORMED, OR KNOW ABOUT THAT WHICH THEY CRITICIZE OR KNOW WHAT THEYRE TALKING ABOUT........seriously


You see the problem is Bioware has decided to pick and choose whose views matter.  They've decided that gamers that want things to go boom are easier to placate and to develop games for, except those aren't the main people that have been buying ME or DA or KOTOR.  And it's almost like when they say something it totally contradicts other things they've said.  They figured people wanted an action packed ending, but didn't give one.  They figured that because the fighting would be intense no one would care about their LI or friends, but in the midst of the only fighting at the very end, Shepard gets the gift from Liara (maybe the LI) and basically says good luck (I choose for it not to be goodbye) to friends.  I think their main problem is that no one knows what the hell is going on.  They can't even agree as to what the game is about.

They shouldn't care about the gaming media, it's the fans that count.  That's my point about what fans did for Demon's Souls.  If a game is good people tell everybody.  I've said this before-my nephews and my brother have xbox360s and don't have any ME games.  I know my brother would love the games, but he has little time for gaming.  So, a game just has to be really good.  I also know that the ending would ****** him off completely.  I won't do that to him.  I was going to buy all 3 games for all 3 of them.  As of right now that's around $300, give or take some.  I was also going to get them gold memberships and MS points for all the DLC-that's a lot more money.  I won't now.

#21009
Kelel01

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 I just finished Mass Effect 3 today, and let me just tell you folks at Bioware that I equally love and hate you guys.   Before you write me off as another disgrunteled fan please continue reading.  I don't really even remember completely how I stumbled on this series, but I realized quite early that Bioware had created something revolutionary, to the point where vidoe game does not do this series justice, as I always tell fellow gamers that the Mass Effect series is the first real interactive movie, with the best script/story I have ever heard.  So let me cut to the chase I loved loved loved loved loved loved the ending to this GREAT SERIES.   So then of course you are wondering what my broblem with bioware is then?  Since I started playing Mass Effect, in my humble opinion, no game has come close in gameplay or story so, I guess you can say I don't really even enjoy gaming anymore, just Mass Effecting.  If this is my biggest problem with the creative geniuses at Bioware, well then I guess I don't really have a problem at all.  I am sure you know that you can't plese everyone, but just know, you still have one loyal fan to the end.  I can't wait to see what you have in store for the future in the mass effect Universe.  If I could make a suggetion though you can easily create another trilogy telling Javik's story and the demise of the Prothean empire, just a thought, but I am sure whatever you folks at Bioware are cooking up, it will be massively effective.

                                                                                                                                                                  Thank You. 

#21010
3DandBeyond

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

Oh, and sorry for the huge post. I had a LONG boring rainy day at the Garden Center I operate today, and that means time to think. Lawls.


Do not apologize it was well worth reading and I thank you for it.  It bears out just what honorable sacrifice is and what is so wrong with Shepard, any Shepard making any of those illogical choices.  It is suicide not sacrifice because there's no context.  It is genocide for expediency's sake.  And it is slavery instead of hard work (easy to give up, harder to work to form bonds between disparate groups and minds).  It is godhood in place of rejection. 

In ME2, most of those that follow Shepard begin to do so for ulterior motives-money or promises made.  But, they do not go into the suicide mission for any of that.  Miranda says it-Shepard has that thing which causes people to follow him/her to hell.  Ashley (wrongly so, because Shepard would reject this) says that Shepard is a god.

Shepard is a person that killed (in my game) 300k Batarians and was detained for this, but then gets the Batarians to follow her.

If this was all some sort of inside joke to continue the game, then they could have and should have come out with that information.

#21011
LiarasShield

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LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Gee you all think Bioware should put in a option for Shepard to commit selfish suicide of the galaxy?



He or She already does that by submitting to the being who has either created or controls the reapers who have been destroying advanced organic civilizations for thousands or millons of years so once shepard meets the main villian or the creater of the reapers he or she doesn't challange his twisted logic for the reason he causes mass genocide and only gives in to the creator of the reapers and only sees the creator of the reapers choices as shepards only options when this is the being who has used the reapers to destroy most of the galaxy zillions of times over

And in 2 of the 3 endings the reapers live and in all the endings shepards forces are trapt around our dying solar system so in all the endings either the reapers live or they cleanse most of the galaxy of advanced organic life

A sacrifice and a meaningful one only happens if you end up saving the people that you sacrifice your life for but because the main villian the catalyst forces shepard into what options he or she is promitted and gives up to the main villian and have the main villian decide what you should do it is no longer a victory or sacrifice since none of these choices was under shepards own will power and the creator of the reapers forced shepard into its decisions it would like to see appear

We don't win we didn't beat the reapers nor did we really save anybody our fleets are stranded in our damaged solar system  and by the time they run out of supplies unless they can rebuild the relays or find a planet within our solar system that wasn't damaged then they do not have a shot

And any meaningful sacrifice was shot the moment shepard gave in to the main villian and had him decide what he or she does

We didn't beat the reapers they beated us


I can't accept a you lose ending no matter what it is the same garbage That ended up being FF 13-2


Well the requiem of the goddess Dlc was the final dlc that was released for 13-2 it was about lightnings final battle with caius after lightning returns to the future once serah and noel supposedly temporarily killed him only for serah to die and for lightning to fight caius and how she became crystal and if you get the secret fragment she ends up waking later on in the future in a dead world all by herself I don't know if any dlc can redeem this since snows and lightnings dlc were ment to be the last ones


Still thinking the person and or people who thought complete failure was ok were friends with the square enix guys or they're in both companies


Well hopefully if their is a 13-3 hopefully lightning will find a way to restore the timelines and vanqish the chaos of valhalla and perhaps restore her sister or perhaps meet her again in another time but it seems like lightning is the only survivor left after the chaos of valhalla hopefully lightning will be able to restore the earth or maybe become the new Goddess Of Etro



Still can't think why a suicide with no real victory is appealing to some of you it just makes me question the very sanity of people today U-u

#21012
daveyeisley

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Kelel01 wrote...

 I just finished Mass Effect 3 today, and let me just tell you folks at Bioware that I equally love and hate you guys.   Before you write me off as another disgrunteled fan please continue reading.  I don't really even remember completely how I stumbled on this series, but I realized quite early that Bioware had created something revolutionary, to the point where vidoe game does not do this series justice, as I always tell fellow gamers that the Mass Effect series is the first real interactive movie, with the best script/story I have ever heard.  So let me cut to the chase I loved loved loved loved loved loved the ending to this GREAT SERIES.   So then of course you are wondering what my broblem with bioware is then?  Since I started playing Mass Effect, in my humble opinion, no game has come close in gameplay or story so, I guess you can say I don't really even enjoy gaming anymore, just Mass Effecting.  If this is my biggest problem with the creative geniuses at Bioware, well then I guess I don't really have a problem at all.  I am sure you know that you can't plese everyone, but just know, you still have one loyal fan to the end.  I can't wait to see what you have in store for the future in the mass effect Universe.  If I could make a suggetion though you can easily create another trilogy telling Javik's story and the demise of the Prothean empire, just a thought, but I am sure whatever you folks at Bioware are cooking up, it will be massively effective.

                                                                                                                                                                  Thank You. 


I envy the amount of love for the endings in this post.... and I can't resist the curmudgeonly urge to interrogate the poster on what choice they made and why the felt it was good...

#21013
BlueStorm83

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---  I'm quick to say that anyone who LOVED the endings is just a blind fanboy.  While I acknowledge that it is possible for a human being to enjoy anything (LOTS of horrible sick fetishes exist) I'd be more willing to believe that people would say things like, "If the Catalyst created not only the Reapers, but all current organic life as well, I'd be willing to trust him and then ending BLANK was satisfying to me."  Qualify it.  I can accept a victory ending, I can accept a defeat ending.  I can't accept an ending that tries to do both, succeeds at neither, and hinges on a character with a POWERFULLY independant and decisionmaking personality just kinda give up.

Ironically, Shepard was Shepherded into three near-identical cluster****s.

#21014
heraymo

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Are You Still Listening j/k

#21015
AlienShagger

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3DandBeyond wrote...

AlienShagger wrote...

Landon7001 wrote...


I put the third CD back in the case and put it up on the shelf with the first two. And as I did that, all of this was on my mind. I deleted the three games from my gaming system along with Origin’s stuff and I won’t game for a while. I’m just not there. Bioware could be right that eventually it may blow over for them. But we won’t forget…


You shouldn't forget. BioWare gave you more than an ending; they gave you the most important choice you can make and, intentionally or not, in some crazy twist of luck or artistic skill, managed to ask you to make the same choice in your own life.

This is far more than any story I experienced did for me, except perhaps writings of Plato more than a decade ago. Anything less than this would have been infinitely less, no matter how otherwise soothing (or perhaps because of it).


Pardon me, but what???  So, he made the decision to walk away from the game and take his money with him.  That is exactly what a company that wants to sell you stuff is after.

Honestly, this is a thinking person's game, but to imply that the ending is on a par with Plato is well I can't say the word.  Give me a break.  It is childish nonsense that has been picked apart by better minds than mine and they have done so eloquently.  It is like a psychotic break and it is in no way encouraging-it does not encourage deep thought, does not encourage or inspire the soul.  It's like trying to imply that within a rubber band is the meaning of all life and telling people to go ahead and discuss it.  I can do that with anything, but I sure as hell am not going to pay a lot of money for the experience.

Anything less than what we got would have been more than what we have.  A great many people would have been satisfied (I wouldn't) if they had stopped the game when Anderson died.

The ending asked Landon7001 the most important decision of his life.  Oh, for Pete's sake I've heard everything now.  Well, if it did, he gave them the answer.  No more money for Bioware games.  Good idea for a business.


I think BioWare, accidentally or not, created a masterpiece with the entire series and especially the final scenes of ME3 and I would like to share that. That is hard to do when people think you don't have two brain cells to rub against each other, so I will try to explain 20 years of thinking about our media in two paragraphs.

The game, as everything else in the entertainment industry, is permiated by our culture, religion, philosophy and (imaginary) life lessons; basically your standard comedy/tragedy from back in the day when Plato walked the southern regions of this continent. We identify with the imaginary characters and find some of them in us.

I said that it did for me what Plato did over a decade ago and I've read most of him; if anything that's a comment on me (and perhaps my generation), not Plato. I think that it is entirely possible that the points made through ME-type constructs are much more valuable for the today's public, simply because we are who we are. I think it is fair to say that people today get a part of their social education from reality shows, sitcoms, magazines and games like ME and I think anyone who approaches these as mere entertainment is massively mistaken and possibly in danger of indoctrination.

Which is why I am excited about the final scenes in ME3. On many levels. What they did may have been accidental, but there it is. Not even BioWare going out and telling us that that's not what they meant by it is going to change what is there.

The series got a segment of the world-wide public to relate to their content in such a deep and personal way, that a disturbing ending got massive response. The nature of the disturbance is also notable: we shifted focus from external to internal struggle and not in some simlpistic way, but with a profound human touch. Shepard is fighting himself, unaware because he so wants to make things right in the real world. There's very little you can do in a coma, but make happy pictures for yourself.

Now here's why I like the scenes so much: The indoctrination is as real for Shepard as it is for us. I relate to his feeling of powerlessness and am daily tempted and often fall into the trap of complacency, when faced with my percieved lack of ability to change this world. Just like Shepard, this is not because I lack the will, but because I am invested in a system that subverts my intent and uses my work against me. Wanting to get things done blinds Shepard and he does what the Reapers want him to do. Notably, the Crucible (some part or entirety of my professional work) is something we do not understand the effect of, created out of percieved necessity and may be exactly what the Reapers (<insert real-life authority figure here>) wanted.

If Shepard rejects the lies served to him, he draws another breath. Everything is as it was seconds before you got hit on Earth. I do not know if this is the intent from BioWare writers, but it makes sense. It is also a good point that Shepard drew breath once, or for the first time - I don't think I have ever done so myself. Freedom from investment in other people's plans may have to come in a rubble of at least some of our work. I also do not think that it is a defeatist position - on the contrary. Being in control of your actions, knowing who and what you are, what you are doing and why must be so liberating, that it is a far greater victory than any one tiny challenge, like the one Reapers pose.

It seems to me that rejection of indoctrination by us westerners is something each of us should to do on a daily basis and that would make for a tedious conclusion to a game. The best they could do is show us that we're not there yet by a long shot. I am not there yet, but I want to be.

If I am reading too much into this, it really doesn't matter. The personal effect is the same, the online community is awesome and Marauder Shields is priceless ;)

Modifié par AlienShagger, 22 mai 2012 - 05:31 .


#21016
AlienShagger

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Double post ftw.

Modifié par AlienShagger, 22 mai 2012 - 05:29 .


#21017
Voodoo-j

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AlienShagger wrote...

Some well thought out words.


The issue is this is not the ending that was implied as per other bioware games.  It did not tie the story of ME to it correctly.
It did not follow through on all the documenteries that have been on since ME 1.

There are supposed to be multiple outcomes that create an enjoyable replay value.

Instead they grabbed the paint tool in their graphics suite and changed some colors.

They created 1 ending with 3 choices, all the same.

I can only appluad it if they managed to pull it off in one day, to save their jobs and get the game out the door lest if be sunk forever.

There is nothing else.  This is not what they told us was envisioned.

#21018
Voodoo-j

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There should be multiple successful different endings, not necessarily happy, but successful.

InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

This video says a lot.

 

That pretty much sums it up .. with their own words.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 22 mai 2012 - 05:38 .


#21019
Voodoo-j

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From what your saying... Ending A and B are a lie and your only left with ending C. So, where are the multiple endings?

You can like what they did, that's fine. But it's not what they said they were going to do, and it does not follow through with the way the series was intended, by their own words. The ending is not the one I paid for, or spent countless hours to attain.

#21020
AlienShagger

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Voodoo-j wrote...

From what your saying... Ending A and B are a lie and your only left with ending C. So, where are the multiple endings?

You can like what they did, that's fine. But it's not what they said they were going to do, and it does not follow through with the way the series was intended, by their own words. The ending is not the one I paid for, or spent countless hours to attain.


Making us feel that freedom from indoctrination is really what it's all about can't be done if they maintain the grip on what happens next (after we take that breath). It's up to us for the first time and that is the most important thing. This is why their DLC isn't really necessary for me personally. It is not a satisfying ending, because breaking free of indoctrination is not an ending, but a beginning. After that every day should be a new beginning.

The pressure people put on BioWare I think is marvelous and is entirely justified, simply by the virtue of them being a corporation. You are entirely right that they are trying to milk whatever they can for as much as they can; you automatically get my vote for free DLC there. I want you to see what I saw in this little marvel for your personal
mental health, then go right back to bashing BioWare.

Modifié par AlienShagger, 22 mai 2012 - 06:07 .


#21021
Holger1405

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LiarasShield wrote...




Still can't think why a suicide with no real victory is appealing to some of you it just makes me question the very sanity of people today U-u


BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I'm quick to say that anyone who LOVED the endings is just a blind fanboy. While I acknowledge that it is possible for a human being to enjoy anything (LOTS of horrible sick fetishes exist) I'd be more willing to believe that people would say things like, "If the Catalyst created not only the Reapers, but all current organic life as well, I'd be willing to trust him and then ending BLANK was satisfying to me." Qualify it. I can accept a victory ending, I can accept a defeat ending. I can't accept an ending that tries to do both, succeeds at neither, and hinges on a character with a POWERFULLY independant and decisionmaking personality just kinda give up.

Ironically, Shepard was Shepherded into three near-identical cluster****s.


These two statements showing an incredible lack of appreciation for other people's opinions.
In addition they are offensive, especially because they are also based on opinions only. Opinions who are neither confirmed nor the absolute truth.

Modifié par Holger1405, 22 mai 2012 - 11:37 .


#21022
AlienShagger

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Holger1405 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...




Still can't think why a suicide with no real victory is appealing to some of you it just makes me question the very sanity of people today U-u


BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I'm quick to say that anyone who LOVED the endings is just a blind fanboy. While I acknowledge that it is possible for a human being to enjoy anything (LOTS of horrible sick fetishes exist) I'd be more willing to believe that people would say things like, "If the Catalyst created not only the Reapers, but all current organic life as well, I'd be willing to trust him and then ending BLANK was satisfying to me." Qualify it. I can accept a victory ending, I can accept a defeat ending. I can't accept an ending that tries to do both, succeeds at neither, and hinges on a character with a POWERFULLY independant and decisionmaking personality just kinda give up.

Ironically, Shepard was Shepherded into three near-identical cluster****s.


These two statements showing an incredible lack of appreciation for other people's opinions.
In addition they are offensive, especially because they are also based on opinions only. Opinions who are neither confirmed nor the absolute truth.


I don't respect people's opinions at all. I like arguments instead. Respecting opinions is what gets us bull**** public discourse we have in the mainstream media today. **** people's opinions.

I get how you could be in the category these two are in. It's a bit like me and classical music - just can't make me listen to 99% of it. Have to present it right.

If you are being given insight into your voulnerability to indoctrination, you will have a reaction like this. You may think that people who like the final scenes (it is NOT the ending) are masochists or something; kindof what I think about people who listen to 99% of classical music. Well, the ME3 ending made me energized and has keept me like that for days now, sort of like the occupy wall street movement does, simply by virtue of agreeing with me that freedom from indoctrination is more important right now than what happened to the fleet and the galaxy - indeed, without freedom, the fight can't even start. The breath at the end is just bonus - Shepard gets to fight now! It really doesn't get any better or optimistic.

#21023
3DandBeyond

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AlienShagger wrote...

snipped


You are however asserting that indoctrination is real for the player.  But no, I never was indoctrinated.  I'm sorry but this is reading way too much into it.

The fact that you can ascribe such meaning to an ending that was rushed (it was changed from what it was supposed to be to this partly in light of the leak) is to deny what happened.  You are welcome to it, if that helps you digest the game, but that does not change what happend.

The ending is not what was promised in any way, shape, or form and does not fulfill some very core promises that were specifically stated and even implied in the way you played the game or how the game/story unfolded.  This wasn't a David Lynch movie, it was more akin to Star Trek and Star Wars than Inception. The ending was supposed to answer all questions not make people go "what?"  An intelligent story at the end may have you ask why.  This ending makes people not even want to know why.  They don't like it first and foremost at a gut level.  Beyond that they feel insulted intellectually.

In order for this pseudo-intellectualism to involve any true intellect, it needed to challenge people's core concepts, but it didn't.  It slapped me in the face and told me that was a good time.  It insults intelligence by faking intelligence.  In order to make sense of it you must either believe it is all an hallucination (indoctrination) or well otherwise it makes no sense.  But in terms of this story and not some other Salvadord Dali-esque visionary dystopic view of fatalism, the ending fails and indoctrination does not salvage it.  Indoctrination ruins it-it taints Shepard's character unless it is rejected.  But again it is not an ending.  If it's true, the reapers still need to die.

I applaud you for finding a way to make it work for you, but your theories are for you alone.  They are so far removed from anything that took place in this story that they are just fantastical. 

You've based a lot of your thought on what Shepard thinks or believes about the Crucible and all along Shepard is not that believing of it-s/he continually questions what it is.

You apparently believe that because you are of a certain generation and have read Plato that puts you in a different realm than others.  Most likely I am older than you.  So.  I'm not averse to intellectual reading or intellectual thought, though I am not intellectual.  However, what most of us feel is we bought a game.  A very smart, thoughty game that dealt with some raw issues and that did that well.  If, as you say the game departed and entered into the realm of fantasy and existentialism (which I do not believe was intended) on purpose, then shame on them.  I wasn't looking for Mario Brothers, nor was I looking for some passion play ending by Sartre.

I was looking for an ending that reflected my choices in the game.  An ending that played out storywise just as the games before had.  I was looking for an ending that remained grounded in the story at hand and that remained true to the real art that was in the plotlines that came before and the character interaction that had so far driven the games.

I wasn't complacent about anything.  You assume something here.  But I was playing a game for fun.  And more often fun doesn't end on a note of "what?!!!!?" 

I'd also say that from a purely business standpoint it makes no sense.  The ending does not make one want to figure it out-it makes the head hurt.  This does not lead one into buying DLC and so on.  It's not fun.  Even a heroic sacrifice would be way more fun.  But it needed to appeal not only to our heads in some comrehendible way, but also to our hearts.  It fails on both counts.  You've had to make up the story of what the ending means to you.  I wanted a real ending.  That doesn't mean I wanted something dumb and just a lot of big explosions.  I wanted an ending story that fit the story in the game.  The ending was promoted and promised to answer all questions and show everything that happened.  It doesn't.

#21024
Redbelle

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@Holger.

Should we all just hold hands and accept that those opinions you deemed offensive are opinions and appreciate them? Although being deemed statements may reduce them to not being opinions....... though why you would deem their statements that could be deemed opinions as not the absolute truth does accept that their may be some truth in those opinions/statements.

Urgh, I can't keep this up all day.

But to end on a note of unity. The endings, while unsatisfying for me, were acceptable to others. I get that. I've also had chats where ppl have expressed why they thought the endings were good. While I still maintain they were not up to the quality that BW have delivered time and again, the different perspectives allows me to re-evaluate my opinion based on new information.

#21025
3DandBeyond

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AlienShagger wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

From what your saying... Ending A and B are a lie and your only left with ending C. So, where are the multiple endings?

You can like what they did, that's fine. But it's not what they said they were going to do, and it does not follow through with the way the series was intended, by their own words. The ending is not the one I paid for, or spent countless hours to attain.


Making us feel that freedom from indoctrination is really what it's all about can't be done if they maintain the grip on what happens next (after we take that breath). It's up to us for the first time and that is the most important thing. This is why their DLC isn't really necessary for me personally. It is not a satisfying ending, because breaking free of indoctrination is not an ending, but a beginning. After that every day should be a new beginning.

The pressure people put on BioWare I think is marvelous and is entirely justified, simply by the virtue of them being a corporation. You are entirely right that they are trying to milk whatever they can for as much as they can; you automatically get my vote for free DLC there. I want you to see what I saw in this little marvel for your personal
mental health, then go right back to bashing BioWare.


I guess I see this as impossible.  If indoctrination is a beginning than it is like saying falling off a cliff while asleep is a beginning.  Indoctrination is for one thing said to destroy the mind and the time it takes depends on the depth of the indoctrination.  Since Shepard is said to be vastly different from others with an extremely powerful mind, any indoctrination would be overly powerful and degenerative.  Not only would it potentially ruin Shepard's reputation but most likely Shepard's mind as well.  And when Shepard "wakes up" the rocks at the bottom of the cliff are waiting.

Moreover, I don't care to be thought of as indoctrinated, nor was I indoctrinated.  If I was then this ending would have made sense and I would have thought it as the most awesomest ever.  It insulted my intelligence.