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[Thanatos144]

Redbelle wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

no thantos what happend wasn't a true sacrifice and shepard gave into the enemy and in both of the endings the reaper lives and in all endings our forces are trapt in a solar system if you looked at any of the links I posted the actual sacrifice ends up saving someone

So the reapers should all die huh??????We humans should be just like them
at the end and commit Genocide huh? Sorry but one Hitler like ending is
enough for me.

Sorry but I need some clarification here.

The Reapers are going to kill, or harvest as they term it, all advanced life because 50,000 yrs enough time for any species to live. We can go into the why's of the 50,000yrs cycle but from the in game perspective the human race has had it's alloted time and now it's up it's time to be destroyed.......... And the Reapers absolutely will not cease and desist in this action till every space faring advanced race is gone. They cannot be bargined or negotiated with and they have the power to steamroll over every species in a divided state.

To put it simply, Death is inevitable. The Reapers are the big bad and nothing will stop them from killing everything, making more of them and then doing it all over again to another cycle of beings.

And while in principle is it wrong to kill, your saying we should take the morale high ground and not destroy them? Ok, there are 2 options which do not involve destruction. But control has always been pushed as impossible in the narrative. Many have tried and all have failed. And to suddenly have a SC pop up and say 'This time will be different', does not wash with me because I've seen attempts to control the Reapers through 3 games end in a spectacular failure. So synthesis then................ one problem with this and it happens to be a subject that is more down to Earth. Womens rights in America campaign strongly that a woman has the right to control their bodies without outside influence............ I could go into the specifics but essentially if a woman wants to go on the pill or not it's their decision and no one elses. Synthesis takes the principle of individual control over a persons body and discards it in favour of one person making a decision that fundamentally changes them.

So if commiting genocide is wrong against the Reapers, And geth (which I really hated since I'd managed to unite the Quarians and Geth and learned of their symbiotic relationship that would shave decades off repopulating Rannoch), and Edi................. and synthesis is wrong because it doesn't permit individual freedom to control their genetic, (I'm reminded of the DNA database from years back and the huge uproar it caused).............. and if control is wrong becuase while a branch to climb out on it's always, always been shown to have been cut off when the climber is far out on it, what's left?

What's your take?

What you seem to be saying is that you cant see any reason to take the higher ground. I on the other hand am a bit more of a optamist I guess.  I havent taken the control option yet.....Hard to bring myself to be like the illusive man.

In the context of the game could you explain what you mean by the higher ground?

 By not repeating the same mistakes the reapers did....Genocide is a mistake and I just dont see repeating that mistake as noble. I am glad they give us the option but I am also glad they gave us two more with it.

Modifié par Thanatos144, 24 mai 2012 - 09:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

jgibson14352 wrote...

i am a true hardcore mass effect fan, and after playing all three games extensively, i can only agree. Bioware did a great job on continuing Liaras romance at the beggingng (minus the "liara toured the normandy" bug), but after she kisses shepard on the cheek, its as if they forgot she was even in the first two games at all. the thing that most got me mad was how after three years of dating, she apparently considered she and shepard to be just friends, and had to be prodded into admiting her feelings on the citadel.
aside from "how many times have you popped his thermal clip?" and two dialouge options with javik, theres almost no mention of a romance until the assault on Cronos Station. not even after Thessia!

Agreed.  And there are many that will consider the Liara romance to be the canon romance of the game.  Even with as sparce a bit as it is, it's the most ahem, fleshed out of all the romances.  I mean Shepard kisses Jack and all, but (haven't played to romance Jack) it seems to all be dry dock, if you get my drift.  There are touching scenes and all which is far better than the shower thing with Samantha and some of the others.  Allers, puhleese.  The dialogue with Garrus is funny and I personally love him so much.  But most of the romances are really a few, very few lines of dialogue.

I initially played ME on the PS3.  I had ME1 for PC, but crappy PC and then just never installed it until ME3 was due out.  I started with a femshep because I'm a lady and I was surprised that a blue female alien was offered as a love interest in the comic.  I thought, what the heck, and that was that.  I've tried male Sheps, but can't stand the VO acting.  And as I said, all other romances are just worse to me.  Not so well done from what I've seen.  I really wanted to romance Thane, but they don't give you much.

So, Liara happened.  The convo about Little Blue Children is epic in my opinion and gets to the heart, especially the gift scene.  It so made me wish they had done more with not just this, but all romances.  And once I got the xbox games, I started playing from ME1 with Liara as LI and she was definitely the aggressor-not said in the comic.  She kept going after Shepard.  So, it's a real eye opener just how far ME2 fell-some great scenes, but damn few.  And I don't care if they get all naked-I like good romantic dialog and pathos.  Avoid the kiss, then kiss-that is great emotional play.

The few moments in ME3 are done so well and convincingly (when it's an admitted love affair and not the friendship as you said), that it is one of the more overriding things that does in truth disappoint me about the ending.  Mind you, I want something that is well done and not a rush job just to explain stuff.  And I do think others that want some type of sacrificial ending because that is what they see as the inevitable outcome.  And I won't say if they did it right and had a happy ending and a sad one that I'd never play a sad one.  But, if I create multiple Shepards I'd go more for the happy every time.  And Little Blue Children would definitely be most desirable.  Why not?  It's what my Shepard wants more than anything else, but it just sucks that galaxy annihilation fears got in the middle of it.  And after all that Shepard has already sacrificed, my Shepard says enough is enough.

[Holger1405]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Guys, Shhhh. Fighting is pointless.

--- Here's why they can't build the relays as fast as the Crucible: The Protheans were actively studying the Mass Relays, as stated by Vigil. There is no evidence that the current Council has any such research. The Crucible was laid out as blueprints. It was easy to build because the Protheans designed the plans to be read by anyone: Liara stated as much. Mass Relays are Quantum Locked, that's why they're nearly impervious. Even if the Quantum Lock expired when they were destroyed, now they're (worst case) rubble or (best case) damaged beyond repair. Smash an old Rotary Phone, then rebuild it without any plans. That's the difference in the current level of technology between Council Races and the Reapers, at the height of their existence, when they built the Relays. Even assuming that the current council races are half as intelligent as the Protheans were, even assuming that the Council had a secret Mass Relay research project, and even assuming that they survived the Reapings, it would take at least a few months to just BUILD a relay (it took months to build the Catalyst, though in real time it took us just between 40 and 50 hours, Hackett provides a timeline in a conversation.) That's if they had explicit plans. Assuming that they'll need to examine a dead relay and reverse engineer, I'd predict (my own estimate, nothing more) at the very least two years to get it right. ALSO you'd need the MATERIALS for it. And since they don't have the relay system to move materials with, like they did with the Crucible... Yeah.

At best, it's a long way off. At worst, it'll only get done after MASSIVE deaths due to bad conditions after the war.

OK, let's speculate!

The Races have a Blueprint for a Mass Relay, because the Citadel is a Mass Relay. They made a almost fatal mistake by not studying the Keepers, the Citadel or the Relay's, a mistake they will not repeat, Plus they have the Crucible team already assembled.
Besides, the dead Reapers are basically very advanced Computers so the blueprints of the Mass Relay's are most probably still in their Systems. Cerberus already did combined Reaper Tech with Mass Effect Tech by using the dead Reaper from the Collectors base.
Also Matriarch Aethyta suggested that they should build new Relay's, so it is in the technical scope, elsewise she wouldn't suggested it in the first Place.
Martial is also note a Problem, they have  at least hundreds of dead Reapers in every major System, Plus wreckage from a lot of other Ships.
Furthermore, they don't need to bring the "catch" Relay into position, quantum communications isn't based upon the Relay system, so the Crucible, now Relay team   can simply pass their data to the Home worlds of the other races and they can build the "catch" Relay on their own.

And this all count's only for the Destruction ending, in the two other endings you have full-blown Reapers to your disposal.                  

Still, you are right, building a Mass Relay system will take time. I think even more as you suggested.
But why is that a Problem?
The Game stated explicit that the Reapers did concentrate on areas of high population density. Food usually didn't come from that areas.   
Furthermore, the Reapers goal on Earth was to "harvest" People. In order to harvest anything you need to cultivate it until the harvest time comes. (decayed body's are unusable for Reapers)
So the Reapers had to leave the food production intact.

And for the dextro-amino Species. The Quarians brought their whole Migrant Fleet to the battle, but for sure not their civilians, so there live Ships can easily supplying the Turians.

Modifié par Holger1405, 24 mai 2012 - 10:30 .

[jgibson14352]

3DandBeyond wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

i am a true hardcore mass effect fan, and after playing all three games extensively, i can only agree. Bioware did a great job on continuing Liaras romance at the beggingng (minus the "liara toured the normandy" bug), but after she kisses shepard on the cheek, its as if they forgot she was even in the first two games at all. the thing that most got me mad was how after three years of dating, she apparently considered she and shepard to be just friends, and had to be prodded into admiting her feelings on the citadel.
aside from "how many times have you popped his thermal clip?" and two dialouge options with javik, theres almost no mention of a romance until the assault on Cronos Station. not even after Thessia!

Agreed.  And there are many that will consider the Liara romance to be the canon romance of the game.  Even with as sparce a bit as it is, it's the most ahem, fleshed out of all the romances.  I mean Shepard kisses Jack and all, but (haven't played to romance Jack) it seems to all be dry dock, if you get my drift.  There are touching scenes and all which is far better than the shower thing with Samantha and some of the others.  Allers, puhleese.  The dialogue with Garrus is funny and I personally love him so much.  But most of the romances are really a few, very few lines of dialogue.

I initially played ME on the PS3.  I had ME1 for PC, but crappy PC and then just never installed it until ME3 was due out.  I started with a femshep because I'm a lady and I was surprised that a blue female alien was offered as a love interest in the comic.  I thought, what the heck, and that was that.  I've tried male Sheps, but can't stand the VO acting.  And as I said, all other romances are just worse to me.  Not so well done from what I've seen.  I really wanted to romance Thane, but they don't give you much.

So, Liara happened.  The convo about Little Blue Children is epic in my opinion and gets to the heart, especially the gift scene.  It so made me wish they had done more with not just this, but all romances.  And once I got the xbox games, I started playing from ME1 with Liara as LI and she was definitely the aggressor-not said in the comic.  She kept going after Shepard.  So, it's a real eye opener just how far ME2 fell-some great scenes, but damn few.  And I don't care if they get all naked-I like good romantic dialog and pathos.  Avoid the kiss, then kiss-that is great emotional play.

The few moments in ME3 are done so well and convincingly (when it's an admitted love affair and not the friendship as you said), that it is one of the more overriding things that does in truth disappoint me about the ending.  Mind you, I want something that is well done and not a rush job just to explain stuff.  And I do think others that want some type of sacrificial ending because that is what they see as the inevitable outcome.  And I won't say if they did it right and had a happy ending and a sad one that I'd never play a sad one.  But, if I create multiple Shepards I'd go more for the happy every time.  And Little Blue Children would definitely be most desirable.  Why not?  It's what my Shepard wants more than anything else, but it just sucks that galaxy annihilation fears got in the middle of it.  And after all that Shepard has already sacrificed, my Shepard says enough is enough.

i agree that enough is enough, no matter what you choose for Shepards background, the man (or woman, i play male shep) has gone through some horrible, horrible things in his life even before ME1. if you chose it, then not only did all of his family and friends get slaughtered by batarians before he was 16, his entire 60 man platoon was wiped out before his eyes by a thresher maw. then you get into ME1, and its the death of one of his best friends and crew mates (jenkins included, or even Wrex). when ME2 comes around, he has the blood of 304,000 batarians on his hands, not to mention any crewmembers who didnt make it back. by ME3s ending, hes lost mordin, thane, legion, and maybe even tali, miranda, the other squadmate from ME1, and councilor udina. to cap it all off, the man he sees as his father (anderson) "supposedly" bleeds out right next to him after watching his final effort to fight back literally obliterated around him. the man DESERVES to find some peace and hapiness, with whoever his love interest is, blue babies or no.

i believe that the romance/sex scenes in ME1 and ME3 where the best by far, but because it showed that the shepard and the love interest cared for each other, and the scene was kind of a rubber stamp on that. i know the romance is just a subplot, but it definately should have had a bigger impact on the story.

at least in the Extended Cut, they wont have any excuses for the romances not being perfect.

[BlueStorm83]

Holger1405 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Guys, Shhhh. Fighting is pointless.

--- Here's why they can't build the relays as fast as the Crucible: The Protheans were actively studying the Mass Relays, as stated by Vigil. There is no evidence that the current Council has any such research. The Crucible was laid out as blueprints. It was easy to build because the Protheans designed the plans to be read by anyone: Liara stated as much. Mass Relays are Quantum Locked, that's why they're nearly impervious. Even if the Quantum Lock expired when they were destroyed, now they're (worst case) rubble or (best case) damaged beyond repair. Smash an old Rotary Phone, then rebuild it without any plans. That's the difference in the current level of technology between Council Races and the Reapers, at the height of their existence, when they built the Relays. Even assuming that the current council races are half as intelligent as the Protheans were, even assuming that the Council had a secret Mass Relay research project, and even assuming that they survived the Reapings, it would take at least a few months to just BUILD a relay (it took months to build the Catalyst, though in real time it took us just between 40 and 50 hours, Hackett provides a timeline in a conversation.) That's if they had explicit plans. Assuming that they'll need to examine a dead relay and reverse engineer, I'd predict (my own estimate, nothing more) at the very least two years to get it right. ALSO you'd need the MATERIALS for it. And since they don't have the relay system to move materials with, like they did with the Crucible... Yeah.

At best, it's a long way off. At worst, it'll only get done after MASSIVE deaths due to bad conditions after the war.

OK, let's speculate!

The Races have a Blueprint for a Mass Relay, because the Citadel is a Mass Relay. They made a almost fatal mistake by not studying the Keepers, the Citadel or the Relay's, a mistake they will not repeat, Plus they have the Crucible team already assembled.
Besides, the dead Reapers are basically very advanced Computers so the blueprints of the Mass Relay's are most probably still in their Systems. Cerberus already did combined Reaper Tech with Mass Effect Tech by using the dead Reaper from the Collectors base.
Also Matriarch Aethyta suggested that they should build new Relay's, so it is in the technical scope, elsewise she wouldn't suggested it in the first Place.
Martial is also note a Problem, they have  at least hundreds of dead Reapers in every major System, Plus wreckage from a lot of other Ships.
Furthermore, they don't need to bring the "catch" Relay into position, quantum communications isn't based upon the Relay system, so the Crucible, now Relay team   can simply pass their data to the Home worlds of the other races and they can build the "catch" Relay on their own.

And this all count's only for the Destruction ending, in the two other endings you have full-blown Reapers to your disposal.                  

Still, you are right, building a Mass Relay system will take time. I think even more as you suggested.
But why is that a Problem?
The Game stated explicit that the Reapers did concentrate on areas of high population density. Food usually didn't come from that areas.   
Furthermore, the Reapers goal on Earth was to "harvest" People. In order to harvest anything you need to cultivate it until the harvest time comes. (decayed body's are unusable for Reapers)
So the Reapers had to leave the food production intact.

And for the dextro-amino Species. The Quarians brought their whole Migrant Fleet to the battle, but for sure not their civilians, so there live Ships can easily supplying the Turians.

--- Very good points, all of them.

One quibble is that Anderson (or maybe Hackett?) said that they were bringing people alive AND DEAD into the Conduit to take to the citadel, presumably to make a new reaper.  So they don't necessarily need live people.

I like the thought of having the other races build their own catch relays, but remember that you can't just go relay to relay, sometimes you have to bounce around a couple relays to get to the ones you really want to.  Also, even with the Com Buoy system communication isn't instantaneous, unless you're using a Quantum Entanglement Communicator.  And from what I understand, all of those in existence are either on the Normandy, in the Illusive Man's throne roo- oh, right, boom, OR on Earth and other Alliance vessels.  Not sure that any exist to other planets.  Even assuming that they have some, there is still the question of building the first working relay.  I don't think that the Citadel can work, didn't it get blown up in all besides the Control ending?  Even if the Citadel's still around, the question remains, is its mass relay capabilities one way only?  Were they destroyed with the other relays?  If it is still around and works both ways, is it still quantum locked?  Sure, I admit that they CAN build new relays, but it's gonna crazy mad hard.

Oh, and if you try to scan Keepers, they die.  Only that one dude's stealth scan actually worked on them without hurting them.

[3DandBeyond]

The points that Liarashield and many others make are this, that in our view Shepard is committing suicide without context when submitting to any of the choices the kid gives him/her. It's either that or genocide.

The kid is holding the gun that is pointed to Shepard's head. While Shepard may then have no other choice but to pick a color, Shepard is not willingly sacrificing for some noble cause. In essense, it is assisted or imposed suicide or genocide and/or suicide/genocide depending on EMS/multiplayer and such.

The kid is pointing a gun at Shepard's head. The kid cannot be seen as friendly. The kid has been sending reapers (further alluded to in Javik's comments in From Ashes DLC where Javik says he doesn't think the reapers are calling the shots). The reapers are turning people into organic people paste. This is not a good thing, so the kid controls the reapers turning people into goo. Reapers bad, kid really bad since reapers are under kid's control and kid could stop the reapers from the goo thing.

Javik also speaks badly of people that have tried to control th reapers. And anyone that has tried to (been convinced that they could) control the reapers has been evil/indoctrinated or both. In short they have been made to think they could control the reapers. By who? Ultimately by the kid because he is in charge. So, the bad guy says Shepard can control the reapers. No way.

The kid also gives 2 other choices. Destroy can't make sense because why would the kid allow Shepard to kill the reapers when he could just shut them down? He's in control of them and he could tell them to just back off. Synthesis is just repugnant.

The thing is the kid may be holding the proverbial gun to Shepard's head, but if Shepard picks one of these things, then s/he isn't doing it out of sacrifice or even real choice, but because there's no alternative. Well, the Shepard I played wouldn't give in so easily and that's what it is-it's giving up and giving in, a demoralized and demoralizing scenario. Not sweet and not bittersweet, but definitely bitter.

[Silpheed58]

Given the nature of the endings you will argue forever and never convince someone to see your way. That's why I am glad this game's story is SP so I don't have to share my with someone I think is a crack pot. or doesn't have their priorities straight because in the end, the end you choose boils down to your own personal priorities and moral views.

[BlueStorm83]

Silpheed58 wrote...

Given the nature of the endings you will argue forever and never convince someone to see your way. That's why I am glad this game's story is SP so I don't have to share my with someone I think is a crack pot. or doesn't have their priorities straight because in the end, the end you choose boils down to your own personal priorities and moral views.

No, not at all.  In the end, the end you choose disregards your own personal priorities and moral views and throws you into a generic end that is at least 70% identical to the end I chose, 90% identical if you don't count the colors, 95% identical if you don't count the slightly different camera angles, and 100% identical if you and I picked the same 1 out of SIX possible endings.

Also, if you don't want to share... why are you here in a thread that discusses the endings?

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 25 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[jgibson14352]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The points that Liarashield and many others make are this, that in our view Shepard is committing suicide without context when submitting to any of the choices the kid gives him/her. It's either that or genocide.

The kid is holding the gun that is pointed to Shepard's head. While Shepard may then have no other choice but to pick a color, Shepard is not willingly sacrificing for some noble cause. In essense, it is assisted or imposed suicide or genocide and/or suicide/genocide depending on EMS/multiplayer and such.

The kid is pointing a gun at Shepard's head. The kid cannot be seen as friendly. The kid has been sending reapers (further alluded to in Javik's comments in From Ashes DLC where Javik says he doesn't think the reapers are calling the shots). The reapers are turning people into organic people paste. This is not a good thing, so the kid controls the reapers turning people into goo. Reapers bad, kid really bad since reapers are under kid's control and kid could stop the reapers from the goo thing.

Javik also speaks badly of people that have tried to control th reapers. And anyone that has tried to (been convinced that they could) control the reapers has been evil/indoctrinated or both. In short they have been made to think they could control the reapers. By who? Ultimately by the kid because he is in charge. So, the bad guy says Shepard can control the reapers. No way.

The kid also gives 2 other choices. Destroy can't make sense because why would the kid allow Shepard to kill the reapers when he could just shut them down? He's in control of them and he could tell them to just back off. Synthesis is just repugnant.

The thing is the kid may be holding the proverbial gun to Shepard's head, but if Shepard picks one of these things, then s/he isn't doing it o.ut of sacrifice or even real choice, but because there's no alternative. Well, the Shepard I played wouldn't give in so easily and that's what it is-it's giving up and giving in, a demoralized and demoralizing scenario. Not sweet and not bittersweet, but definitely bitter.

thats just it though. by destroying the reapers, Shepard is standing in defiance, he wont take the other options. the reapers must pay for their crimes. the star child clearly paints the other options in a better light, saying that destruction will also kill the geth, but will not result in peace. synthesis offers the best option to most players, saying synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution. but thats the catch, the reapers are the pinnacle of evolution, and they see themselves as "ascending" organic life, as they said in the Evolution comics. control is an obvious trap, so i wont waste my time on that. by choosing destruction, shepard states that he wont back down, he came to stop the reapers and thats exactly what hes going to do

[Rex Fallout]

Silpheed58 wrote...

Given the nature of the endings you will argue forever and never convince someone to see your way. That's why I am glad this game's story is SP so I don't have to share my with someone I think is a crack pot. or doesn't have their priorities straight because in the end, the end you choose boils down to your own personal priorities and moral views.

I'd argue it comes down to what color you prefer.  Not your moral views.  Do you want to see everyone you love die in a red explosion, a green explosion ro a blue explosion?  None of the above?  Sorry that isn't a choice. 

[daveyeisley]

Thanatos144 wrote...

daveyeisley wrote...
Ok. You feel you are discussing things.

So we can both agree that in a discussion, it is ok for people to agree, and it is also ok for people to disagree.

Right?

Now, before, you said you were expressing your views.

I believe that expressing one's views is very different from discussing things. Simply because, expressing one's views does not mean you are willing to explain or discuss them.

Do you agree?

So this leads me to believe that expressing one's views is a one-shot deal. You do it, then its over and done with.

If you stick around to explain, and exchange ideas, then you are discussing.

Now, I am interested to know what you believe the goal of a discussion is.

Why should people put their time and effort into discussing something, regardless of whether they agree or disagree?

So i am not suppose to defend my views when they are attacked or questioned??????You have a very twisted view on what is a discussion.

Whoa, easy now. I am still just asking you questions, no judgements at all.

Did you disagree with any of my above-quoted post?

Are you willing to answer my question about what you believe the goal of a discussion is?

[daveyeisley]

Siansonea II wrote...

"Yes we are listening".

860 page thread.

No BioWare tagged replies.

Math?

Sigh.... I hadn't thought of it in these terms, I just had an inkling in the back of my brain.... this post made me actually look at the reality of it.... and it made me sad. Really sad.

I really want to believe Bioware cares about our opinions enough to change direction with the extended cut, or at least engage is some discourse about the whys and hows and pros and cons of context, clarity, and closure versus new optional ending content.

I need to believe they will understand and respond to our concerns.... but ...

800 pages....

[BearlyHere]

BlueStorm83 wrote...


--- Very good points, all of them.

One quibble is that Anderson (or maybe Hackett?) said that they were bringing people alive AND DEAD into the Conduit to take to the citadel, presumably to make a new reaper.  So they don't necessarily need live people.

I like the thought of having the other races build their own catch relays, but remember that you can't just go relay to relay, sometimes you have to bounce around a couple relays to get to the ones you really want to.  Also, even with the Com Buoy system communication isn't instantaneous, unless you're using a Quantum Entanglement Communicator.  And from what I understand, all of those in existence are either on the Normandy, in the Illusive Man's throne roo- oh, right, boom, OR on Earth and other Alliance vessels.  Not sure that any exist to other planets.  Even assuming that they have some, there is still the question of building the first working relay.  I don't think that the Citadel can work, didn't it get blown up in all besides the Control ending?  Even if the Citadel's still around, the question remains, is its mass relay capabilities one way only?  Were they destroyed with the other relays?  If it is still around and works both ways, is it still quantum locked?  Sure, I admit that they CAN build new relays, but it's gonna crazy mad hard.

Oh, and if you try to scan Keepers, they die.  Only that one dude's stealth scan actually worked on them without hurting them.

Give Tali a wad of Shep's used chewing gum, a port access device, and some baling wire, and she'll fix it in no time.

[Benchpress610]

daveyeisley wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

"Yes we are listening".

860 page thread.

No BioWare tagged replies.

Math?

Sigh.... I hadn't thought of it in these terms, I just had an inkling in the back of my brain.... this post made me actually look at the reality of it.... and it made me sad. Really sad.

I really want to believe Bioware cares about our opinions enough to change direction with the extended cut, or at least engage is some discourse about the whys and hows and pros and cons of context, clarity, and closure versus new optional ending content.

I need to believe they will understand and respond to our concerns.... but ...

800 pages....

Yeah…we haven’t heard a peep from BW after 800+ pages and almost three months from release. Just rumors, nothing official. This can be interpreted in two ways:
 
1.      They already said their piece and are working in their EC explanation clarification crap. So they are not changing the endings and that’s the end of it. They think we are bunch of ungrateful, whiny brats that don’t appreciate their effort, so there is nothing to say.
2.      Presumably any company in their position would be all out in damage control to appease its fan base. So, why the silence? Could it be they are actually listening? It could be that they are setting up to do a complete overhaul of the ending. But let’s face it, three months is not such a long time in the big scheme of things, and they don’t want to say anything definitive until all detail and planning is finalized.
 
Otherwise they would be out there defending the ending and explaining what exactly their artistic vision is…

[3DandBeyond]

jgibson14352 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The points that Liarashield and many others make are this, that in our view Shepard is committing suicide without context when submitting to any of the choices the kid gives him/her. It's either that or genocide.

The kid is holding the gun that is pointed to Shepard's head. While Shepard may then have no other choice but to pick a color, Shepard is not willingly sacrificing for some noble cause. In essense, it is assisted or imposed suicide or genocide and/or suicide/genocide depending on EMS/multiplayer and such.

The kid is pointing a gun at Shepard's head. The kid cannot be seen as friendly. The kid has been sending reapers (further alluded to in Javik's comments in From Ashes DLC where Javik says he doesn't think the reapers are calling the shots). The reapers are turning people into organic people paste. This is not a good thing, so the kid controls the reapers turning people into goo. Reapers bad, kid really bad since reapers are under kid's control and kid could stop the reapers from the goo thing.

Javik also speaks badly of people that have tried to control th reapers. And anyone that has tried to (been convinced that they could) control the reapers has been evil/indoctrinated or both. In short they have been made to think they could control the reapers. By who? Ultimately by the kid because he is in charge. So, the bad guy says Shepard can control the reapers. No way.

The kid also gives 2 other choices. Destroy can't make sense because why would the kid allow Shepard to kill the reapers when he could just shut them down? He's in control of them and he could tell them to just back off. Synthesis is just repugnant.

The thing is the kid may be holding the proverbial gun to Shepard's head, but if Shepard picks one of these things, then s/he isn't doing it o.ut of sacrifice or even real choice, but because there's no alternative. Well, the Shepard I played wouldn't give in so easily and that's what it is-it's giving up and giving in, a demoralized and demoralizing scenario. Not sweet and not bittersweet, but definitely bitter.

thats just it though. by destroying the reapers, Shepard is standing in defiance, he wont take the other options. the reapers must pay for their crimes. the star child clearly paints the other options in a better light, saying that destruction will also kill the geth, but will not result in peace. synthesis offers the best option to most players, saying synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution. but thats the catch, the reapers are the pinnacle of evolution, and they see themselves as "ascending" organic life, as they said in the Evolution comics. control is an obvious trap, so i wont waste my time on that. by choosing destruction, shepard states that he wont back down, he came to stop the reapers and thats exactly what hes going to do

However, Destroy is genocide.  It does depend upon how you play Shepard but if you help EDI become more humanistic in her viewpoint-she continually changes her programming to become a full crewmember, willing to die for everyone-and if you help reunite the geth and quarian, you cannot help but feel they are people, too.

There is no good option, because they are the choices the kid gives you and the kid is evil.  Consider that many think he is actually showing Shepard that Destroy is the good option by showing it's what Anderson would pick.

It's all a trick-he shows Shepard good sides (in his view) to all of the choices and some drawbacks, of course.  But, he could be lying about all of them.  There are many instances in the game where people talk about the trickery used by the reapers and we know who controls them.

Javik for one talks about people that decided to sacrifice their children to the reapers thinking that would placate them, but he says it just made it easier.  No one knows what the Crucible is supposed to do.  It could just as easily be a tool to make things easier for the reapers and in picking one, any one Shepard could be hitting the "turn everyone into goo" button.  It's why making any choice is almost irrelevant.  It doesn't make sense for Shepard to make one.  No choice could be trusted, but even so no choice is a win.

[3DandBeyond]

Here's an interesting codex entry since everyone keeps talking about the mass relays being destroyed. It's in the Reaper War section under Desperate Measures.

"Destroying a mass relay to stop the Reapers' advance is infeasbile. Although it has recently been proven that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Ruptured relay-all those relays colored red, green, and blue certainly looked ruptured to me. Just wanted to mention.

[BearlyHere]

My renegade didn't hesitate to go for the destroy option, but even my paragon didn't trust the kid, who just happens to look like that one who haunts her dreams. That and the pronouns the kid uses implies he's speaking for the Reapers. Since the first two seemed like letting the Reapers win, she also didn't hesitate to go for destroy, though with great regret for killing EDI and the Geth.

Anyway you look at it, it's dark and bitter. What happened to good triumphing over evil? What I would like to know is would they have been so quick to go for the kill ending if it had been Liara or Garrus who had to choose the color? But that wouldn't happen, because Liara has to be around to raise a blue Shep baby someday. I think that will be revealed in the next ME. Not that I'll buy it.

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Here's an interesting codex entry since everyone keeps talking about the mass relays being destroyed. It's in the Reaper War section under Desperate Measures.

"Destroying a mass relay to stop the Reapers' advance is infeasbile. Although it has recently been proven that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Ruptured relay-all those relays colored red, green, and blue certainly looked ruptured to me. Just wanted to mention.

Exactly…This is corroborated by Amanda Kenson in Arrival who explains to Shepard that rupturing a mass effect core of a relay would liberate an enormous amount of energy rivaling that of a supernova. I don’t know what’s ambiguous about that.  

[Archonsg]

Benchpress610 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Here's an interesting codex entry since everyone keeps talking about the mass relays being destroyed. It's in the Reaper War section under Desperate Measures.

"Destroying a mass relay to stop the Reapers' advance is infeasbile. Although it has recently been proven that mass relays can be destroyed, a ruptured relay liberates enough energy to ruin any terrestrial world in the relay's solar system."

Ruptured relay-all those relays colored red, green, and blue certainly looked ruptured to me. Just wanted to mention.

Exactly…This is corroborated by Amanda Kenson in Arrival who explains to Shepard that rupturing a mass effect core of a relay would liberate an enormous amount of energy rivaling that of a supernova. I don’t know what’s ambiguous about that.

There is also just common sense physics backing that up.

Relay's = superstructures that can stand a supernova blast (codex > secondary > ilos> mu relay) Now take a close look at a relay, it is NOT a box or encased structure, Relays uses Mass Effect Fields to contain the energy within. Thus any energy applied at said structure, cannot use the compression model (think the movie Armageddon and the concept of a closed fist vs open palm) to in effect act as a force multiplier.

Thus for a Mass relay to break up due to an external kinetic/momentum force, would require that force to be of substantial strength.
This is something that EVERY supporter of the "different kind of explosion", "energy bled out already" or whatever does not want to admit to, and is ignored.

Now, the best part, a writer has come out to say that the Relays aren't destroyed. That the relays overloaded but did not rupture. I appreciate the PR cover but seriously, this just made it all the more glaring that the Creative Team was really taken out of the loop, and that they have not even seen the ending for themselves. Anyone who has will have seen in ALL THREE options, Relays rupturing. That kinda happens when parts and pieces of the superstructure is seen to break, expand and "blow outwards" away from the force that was applied to them, the very definition of an explosion.

Now I am obligated to give the one possible scenario that was pointed out to me that could actually have caused the relays to rupture with less energy and act as a shock buffer for said explosive release and that is if a singularity event were to first happen and is maintained during explosion. This singularity event for obvious reasons need to be again near the strength of what is released to be able to first cause a flex inwards of said structure, thus cracking, weakening it and then hold true as the energy is released and said explosion is then muted.

However again we see no such thing and as with everything engineering, it is best just to use Occam's razor and use the most direct, simplest explanation. The relays exploded. kinetic/momentum energy is greater than superstructure strength at release, magnitude of force applied needs to be more to have a sudden failure of superstructure able to withstand supernovas.
System a relay is residing = FUBARed.

And yes, that should have happened to that "paradise planet" Joker landed on.

Bottom line, they made the ending cut scenes so illogical, so badly written it is only fair to say that their intent was for visual quality (and I use that term lightly) only. Explosions, chase, crash and appearance of familiar members (even though some should be dead or severely wounded on Sol) to give the viewer the "wow" factor.


Logic and physics.
Failed and betrayed at the end.
Admit the ending for what it is, rubbish.

Modifié par Archonsg, 25 mai 2012 - 05:17 .

[B3A5T13]

I loved the game, and Just so you know I thought the Ending was BRILLIANT!
Although I must admit it took me a while to understand why so. There were many a long talk with my fellow Mass effect playing friends about it. we each noticed something different in places all throughout the game, and having read the books and comics. this led us to believe that there was more to the game than what we saw. Then we found the I.T. It took our previous theories and ended up expanding on them. after that it was clear why the Game was AWESOME. because the ending made you think.

Thank you for not force feeding me the ending, and allowing me to make connections throughout the games.
Your final product actually reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey. at the time no one liked it. but now years later it is regarded as one of the best sci-fi movies ever made.

Thank you BW I look forward to more ME games in the future.

Modifié par B3A5T13, 25 mai 2012 - 06:43 .

[Ksandor]

B3A5T13 wrote...

I loved the game, and Just so you know I thought the Ending was BRILLIANT!
Although I must admit it took me a while to understand why so. There were many a long talk with my fellow Mass effect playing friends about it. we each noticed something different in places all throughout the game, and having read the books and comics. this led us to believe that there was more to the game than what we saw. Then we found the I.T. It took our previous theories and ended up expanding on them. after that it was clear why the Game was AWESOME. because the ending made you think.

Thank you for not force feeding me the ending, and allowing me to make connections throughout the games.
Your final product actually reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey. at the time no one liked it. but now years later it is regarded as one of the best sci-fi movies ever made.

Thank you BW I look forward to more ME games in the future.

Brainwashed, whitewashed, hired pro or just mainstream? Whatever... I am SO glad you liked the ending. Unfortunately the majority did not like it. The game did not sell well, company reputation is down from heroic to disliked and only that matters because... gimme casshhhhh! Now, please go and post 10.000 more positive posts. I am sure the hired pros will earn their money. Thanks.

[Helios969]

3DandBeyond wrote...

However, Destroy is genocide.  It does depend upon how you play Shepard but if you help EDI become more humanistic in her viewpoint-she continually changes her programming to become a full crewmember, willing to die for everyone-and if you help reunite the geth and quarian, you cannot help but feel they are people, too.

There is no good option, because they are the choices the kid gives you and the kid is evil.  Consider that many think he is actually showing Shepard that Destroy is the good option by showing it's what Anderson would pick.

It's all a trick-he shows Shepard good sides (in his view) to all of the choices and some drawbacks, of course.  But, he could be lying about all of them.  There are many instances in the game where people talk about the trickery used by the reapers and we know who controls them.

Javik for one talks about people that decided to sacrifice their children to the reapers thinking that would placate them, but he says it just made it easier.  No one knows what the Crucible is supposed to do.  It could just as easily be a tool to make things easier for the reapers and in picking one, any one Shepard could be hitting the "turn everyone into goo" button.  It's why making any choice is almost irrelevant.  It doesn't make sense for Shepard to make one.  No choice could be trusted, but even so no choice is a win.

Destroy is the only option given Bioware stripped freewill from the ending.  My Shep was about building cooperation and coalitions throughout the series.  There should have been a solution that wasn't about control, destroy, or synthesis, but destroy is the RIGHT choice in dealing with an enemy bent on genocide of all organic life.

A vote for control is a vote for slavery since it takes away freewill, and synthesis is even worse since it takes away everyone's freewill.  Like Garrus said: "It's the cold, hard calculus of war.  Ten billion die over here so twenty billion over there can live."  Personally, I'd rather be slaughtered than have my will dominated.

The ending clearly suggests the ones in control are Bioware's writers, but they may have unwittingly clicked destroy on themselves in the process.  We went through 2 and 99/100ths games of something like Star Wars and suddenly were warped through time-space into the Matrix?  Worst ending (book, movie, game) EVER.

[Helios969]

B3A5T13 wrote...

I loved the game, and Just so you know I thought the Ending was BRILLIANT!
Although I must admit it took me a while to understand why so. There were many a long talk with my fellow Mass effect playing friends about it. we each noticed something different in places all throughout the game, and having read the books and comics. this led us to believe that there was more to the game than what we saw. Then we found the I.T. It took our previous theories and ended up expanding on them. after that it was clear why the Game was AWESOME. because the ending made you think.

Thank you for not force feeding me the ending, and allowing me to make connections throughout the games.
Your final product actually reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey. at the time no one liked it. but now years later it is regarded as one of the best sci-fi movies ever made.

Thank you BW I look forward to more ME games in the future.

Indoctrinated agent of the Reapers.

[Holger1405]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- Very good points, all of them.

One quibble is that Anderson (or maybe Hackett?) said that they were bringing people alive AND DEAD into the Conduit to take to the citadel, presumably to make a new reaper.  So they don't necessarily need live people.

True, but the Reapers need intact Body's. If the Reapers cut the supplies of food off, the human population would starve to dead in a very short period of time, and the Body's would decay short after that, becoming unusable for the Reapers.

BlueStorm83 wrote...
I like the thought of having the other races build their own catch relays, but remember that you can't just go relay to relay, sometimes you have to bounce around a couple relays to get to the ones you really want to.

Well there are primary and secondary relays. The primary relays for long distant travel and bound to their "catch" relay, the secondary for relatively short travel and not bound to a single other "catch" relay. If the races can figure out how to build mass relays, this is not more than a matter of logistic.
    

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Also, even with the Com Buoy system communication isn't instantaneous, unless you're using a Quantum Entanglement Communicator.  And from what I understand, all of those in existence are either on the Normandy, in the Illusive Man's throne roo- oh, right, boom, OR on Earth and other Alliance vessels.  Not sure that any exist to other planets.

At least the Salarian's, and the Council did have quantum communicators too.  From what Udina mentioned in his conversation with Shepard, I assume quantum communication is standard by now.
     

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Even assuming that they have some, there is still the question of building the first working relay.  I don't think that the Citadel can work, didn't it get blown up in all besides the Control ending?

No, there are explosions, but the Citadel is not destroyed.

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Even if the Citadel's still around, the question remains, is its mass relay capabilities one way only?  Were they destroyed with the other relays?  If it is still around and works both ways, is it still quantum locked?  Sure, I admit that they CAN build new relays, but it's gonna crazy mad hard.

It would work both way's but it also would be bound to the Relay in dark space, where the Reapers are hiding between the cycles. I consider the Citadel only as an possible blueprint.    

[George Costanza]

Ksandor wrote...

B3A5T13 wrote...

I loved the game, and Just so you know I thought the Ending was BRILLIANT!
Although I must admit it took me a while to understand why so. There were many a long talk with my fellow Mass effect playing friends about it. we each noticed something different in places all throughout the game, and having read the books and comics. this led us to believe that there was more to the game than what we saw. Then we found the I.T. It took our previous theories and ended up expanding on them. after that it was clear why the Game was AWESOME. because the ending made you think.

Thank you for not force feeding me the ending, and allowing me to make connections throughout the games.
Your final product actually reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey. at the time no one liked it. but now years later it is regarded as one of the best sci-fi movies ever made.

Thank you BW I look forward to more ME games in the future.

Brainwashed, whitewashed, hired pro or just mainstream? Whatever... I am SO glad you liked the ending. Unfortunately the majority did not like it. The game did not sell well, company reputation is down from heroic to disliked and only that matters because... gimme casshhhhh! Now, please go and post 10.000 more positive posts. I am sure the hired pros will earn their money. Thanks.

Hey, you might not have heard yet, cause it's kinda a new thing, but apparently some people don't have exactly the same opinions about things as you. They're not necessarily a nefarious agent for the enemy trying to bring down the fanbase from within.