23455 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueStorm83]

Careful there, 3D, don't want to suppose that there is any set cannon to the game. Remember, up until the Failure- I mean the "ending" the game's totally open. Sure, Liara might have been the most logical choice or whatever, but honestly, as I know you already know, it's our own stories. Until the terribad endings. But you know what I means.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Since 3DandBeyond hasn't replied to Holger's latest, I'll take a small crack at one part of it.

Holger says that there's no evidence that the Crucible is a Reaper Trap. True. But there isstill the possibility, even the liklihood of it. Javik and the Prothean VI both say that the Crucible is cycles and cycles older than they all thought it was; that every cycle adds to and improves on it.

To me, this introduced the STRONG possibility that the Reapers had created the plans, and at least used it as a Red Herring to keep the organic peoples attention while they were Reaped. When we find out in the end that "The Crucible has added new possibilities" as Starboy says, I immediately thought that this was all part of their plan. I figured that the Reapers, or Starboy himself, had theorized that through the crucible they could, I don't know, do something that they wanted. The Synthesis Option is positive for the Reapers. The Control Option puts us in a situation where Reapers survive and there's a body-less consciousness controlling the reapers; exactly what we have when Shepard encounters Starboy. And the Destroy Option kills the reapers, but ALSO kills your Synthetic allies. Synthesis seems like the "best" option when you discount the horrible horrible injustice done to people when you pick it.

I have to wonder, are we SURE that nobody ever completed the Crucible before? Javik said no, but he didn't know about Ilos. He was a soldier, some kind of officer, but would he know if the Crucible was completed or not? I don't think so. Maybe they provided the Crucible just waiting for some cycle to come along where someone would pick Synthesis. Maybe they need a willing merger, forcing it just results in abominations.

Consider what the Reapers do when they learn that we've built the Crucible: They take the Citadel, which is the CATALYST, to Earth. Our Homeworld. Which we have just assembled a SUPERFLEET to retake. Then they build a Conduit to it. A conduit that goes not just to the Citadel, but to a hallway that's about, let's say, 200 yards from the Catalyst/Crucible control room. When the Crucible is attached to the Citadel, the arms are WIDE open. The Arms are held on by tiny little structures. The Crucible's armor has come off. It's docked on that flimsy little ring there. The Crucible is the ULTIMATE WEAPON, right? It can destroy the Reapers, RIGHT?!?!

Not even ONE Reaper seems interested in this. None of them take a shot at it. They don't send any banshees or brutes or harvesters or cannibals or even husks into the Conduit after Shepard.

Snipped-----

Thanks for saying everything I meant to say--Javik knows next to nothing about anything.  He states there are classes of people and he is I think the appropriate name was the Warrior class.  He had heard about the Crucible but it was never finished-so we don't even know if the Protheans worked on the plans or just worked on making the Crucible or if they ever did either.  Liara was very wrong about much of her understanding of them.

The Crucible is a huge target, yet is ignored.  As you said, the Citadel is conveniently moved to the Reaper's first zone of attack and to what is the home of the most advanced organic race.  Most have assumed it was the Asari but the game contradicts itself here.  Mordin says humans are more advanced and more diverse.  The Asari are too genetically similar.  And it seems Thessia was easily conquered. 

So the Citadel is by Earth, a conduit is opened up to allow someone to go up it (ok they were bringing bodies up so the kid could turn them into goo), but Harbinger didn't kill Shepard.  What happened to Harbinger?  He hits Shepard once with the beam and runs off.  Uh, no.  Why would Harbinger leave if it was possible other humans would try to use the conduit.  He specifically moved there supposedly to protect it.  I'd think he wouldn't believe Shepard was the only one who'd try.

I don't think the only conclusion Shepard could come to is that this is all a trap, but I think it is one logical conclusion and as such Shepard would have to consider all the possibilities before doing anything the kid offers.

All Shepard knows is the kid is turning people into goo.  The kid controls things.  The kid seems to not want to hit the off switch and is still killing people while talking to Shepard.  The kid offers Shepard control.  Well, the kid won't use the off switch so how is Shepard supposed to before dying.  The kid offers faulty, flawed, or purposely misleading logic.  This means either the kid is inept or evil.  If someone is inept I don't tend to trust that they know what they are talking about.  If someone is evil I definitely don't trust them.  That means the kid could be wrong or could be lying.  These are possibilities and Shepard's decisions should be based on Occam's Razor--you arrive at a conclusion based upon the fewest number of hypotheses.

This means that in order to make a choice, Shepard must believe and form too many hypotheses or believe too many things favorable to the kid.  The much simpler route, requiring fewer hypotheses or belief in things that have no proof is arrived at if Shepard refuses to make any choice.  Shepard simply must act on a twisted faith in the evil reaper kid in order to trust him.

Any sentence with believe in it is a hypothesis unless it is proven, then it is fact.
To make a choice:
Shepard must believe the Protheans worked on the Crucible plans and knew what they were.  No proof.
Shepard must believe the plans were not created by the kid/reapers.  No proof.
Shepard must believe Harbinger didn't hit him/her directly with the beam.  Proof says otherwise.
Shepard must believe the kid's faulty logic is true or that the kid believes it is true.  No proof.  In fact, the kid has been shown as evil unless proven otherwise because he is creating people goo.  And even if he believes he is doing good, that is irrelevant to people who do not want to be turned into people goo.
Shepard must believe the kid is being honest about everything.  No proof.  If the kid lies about one thing, then everything could be a lie.
Shepard must believe the choices are real.  No proof.  In fact, Shepard is told that in most cases s/he will never even know if they are real, because s/he will die.  Double down on no proof.
Shepard must believe there was some reason that made sense, other than harvesting, for the Citadel to be moved to Earth.  Anti-proof.  The kid says the Citadel is his home and others said the conduit was there specifically to harvest people and turn them into goo in the kid's home.  That is what it was being used for and that is why the Citadel was moved to Earth so the processing was made easier.  This is in bold for people to really consider.
There are more things Shepard must believe in, but since the list is already fairly long, you get the idea.  There's a lot that Shepard must take on faith alone, faith in an evil guy that may in reality be Harbinger or Sovereign's twin brother.

To reject a choice:
Shepard must believe the kid could be lying.  That's it.  S/he needs no proof of this because to reject something in this case requires a lesser burden.  It's kind of like a court case.  If one piece, the biggest piece of any case is possibly not true, then the whole thing can fall apart.  The kid absolutely could be lying.  Shepard has no proof based on the list above that anything the kid says is true.  In fact, certain things point to the kid as not just misguided, but as willfully, purposely lying.

Shepard does not need to know if the kid is lying, but if the possibility exists then all the rest gets thrown out the window.  In fact, Shepard used a somewhat similar standard with TIM on many issues.  Shepard might have destroyed the collector's base because s/he just didn't believe TIM would use it for good.  And why?  Because TIM had done some bad things before.  Well, so has the kid, but now Shepard is willing to risk everything and everyone on this kid's word.  Nope, no way.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 mai 2012 - 02:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Careful there, 3D, don't want to suppose that there is any set cannon to the game. Remember, up until the Failure- I mean the "ending" the game's totally open. Sure, Liara might have been the most logical choice or whatever, but honestly, as I know you already know, it's our own stories. Until the terribad endings. But you know what I means.

Nope, I wasn't suggesting that at all, because I also mentioned that Ashley and/or Kaidan were treated even worse than Liara in ME2.  And they could have been LIs as well.  I'm not casting my own preferences out there as the only way to do things.  What I was saying is that they removed certain LIs from our games and that Liara was put as DLC and then gone, but Ashley/Kaidan insults Shepard and is gone.  And then in ME3, Thane dies.  But most people that played from ME1 had a LI and may have wanted to be true, but the game seems to not want you to.

I didn't mean to imply she was the canon romance at all  -I do think that a lot of people have her as the LI, because they do seem to have done more work in scripting that romance, even with part of it being DLC.  Personally, with the male Shepard I had started, I would have gone for Tali, but I truly think that Shepard should have done the real face unveiling.  That would have been so touching.

But I will point out that it seems the choices for a female Shepard to romance are kind of slim pickings.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 mai 2012 - 03:05 .

[LiarasShield]

again the catalyst isnt the good guy the enemy that has been destroying advanced organics for generations and then saying their going to save us from advanced synthetics but then use the geth to kill us or fight us with their reaper code after nearly destroying the galaxy and do this a thousand times over do you really think the reapers are just gonna sit down and drink milk and cookies with us I hardly doubt so

In A situation where the enemy that your fighting or brought all your forces to beat it makes no sense to automaticlly give into said enemy with circular logic that can be torn apart and then forced into 3 choices that either sound suicidal and ends up traping all your forces or commiting mass genocide to races like the geth and the quarians

Or turing everybody into half machines or half organic hybrids against their will destroying individuality evolution to affect real change to destroy the whole essence of bringing different people together to accomplish a goal

And No one has ever been able to control the reapers so it makes no sense why it would be able to work now when the illusive man and saren both failed to do so and how is shepard controlling the reapers if his or her body is destroyed how in hells name are the reapers being controlled and in any of the endings where the main villian lives what makes you think they won't try to harvest or commit mass genocide again it just


*Deep breath* dear god I just oooooih *Facepalms


Maybe from now on on every post I make I shall have this picture accompanie it

Thought this was kinda cool


[/quote]


Yeah a sacrifical ending is fine if you end up saving the people you sacrifice for but giving into the enemy and then having the enemy pick what you should or force you into 3 terrible choices that personally as player and as shepard would probably never do I'm sorry

I'd rather fight the reapers to the end and depending on how high ems is how bad we lose or how good we win with keeping the relays intact so all the forces can go home and have loyal squad stay with us and the fleets

And why Can't mass effect 3 have a good ending or at least a victory ending mass effect 1 had one mass effect 2 had one 99% of mass effect 3 despite the noble and sad sacrifices had heroic and well done moments so why in the ending where everything is suppose to make sense where we are suppose to be reaching a decent conclusion does everything lose cohesion losing gallons of blood or not I wouldn't give in or accept the cataylst without questioning my own sanity because he created the reapers he is using the reapers to destroy organics for aeons on end and is still using the reapers to destroy my forces as we are having this very conversation with the catalyst


And ultimately why would I Trapt my own forces or let the enemy that has been destroying life for thousand of years or is destroying us during most of the final game why in hells name would I let them live so that they can potentially kill us all over again I just sweet christmas U_u

At the end of the day a defeat is a defeat I wish our choices would've mattered I wish we could've really beaten the reapers espically under our own steam and not their creators wishes

If you can explain why all this is fantastic then i'll leave you be lol

[BearlyHere]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Careful there, 3D, don't want to suppose that there is any set cannon to the game. Remember, up until the Failure- I mean the "ending" the game's totally open. Sure, Liara might have been the most logical choice or whatever, but honestly, as I know you already know, it's our own stories. Until the terribad endings. But you know what I means.

Nope, I wasn't suggesting that at all, because I also mentioned that Ashley and/or Kaidan were treated even worse than Liara in ME2.  And they could have been LIs as well.  I'm not casting my own preferences out there as the only way to do things.  What I was saying is that they removed certain LIs from our games and that Liara was put as DLC and then gone, but Ashley/Kaidan insults Shepard and is gone.  And then in ME3, Thane dies.  But most people that played from ME1 had a LI and may have wanted to be true, but the game seems to not want you to.

I have never said she was the canon romance at all-I do think that a lot of people have her as the LI, because they do seem to have done more work in scripting that romance, even with part of it being DLC.  Personally, with the male Shepard I had started, I would have gone for Tali, but I truly think that Shepard should have done the real face unveiling.  That would have been so touching.

But I will point out that it seems the choices for a female Shepard to romance are kind of slim pickings.

I played 2 before I because I had thought it was just a shooter, but I was given it by a friend who was getting rid of his xbox. Since I only knew Kaidan as that jerk on Horizon, and Thane and Garrus were aliens, my first fem Shep went for Jacob, grumbling that female players get short-changed again.  That romance really comes back to bite you in the butt in 3.

I liked 2 enough that I picked up 1, and missed out on Kaidan somehow my first time, so my new Fem Shep gave Liara the "we're both women" line and was loveless. But I really liked Thane the first time I played, so she hooked up with him. Whoever wrote him put a lot of thought into the dialog. At least in 3 Shep got a reunion/make-out session in the hospital and a touching death scene. Jacob I just wanted to punch.

My male ren Shep went for Tali. She was so much more interesting and fun than Liara, who he let down as gently as a renegade could. My last male Shep came out the first time Kaidan flirted with him. It would be nice to have a chance for Shep to live and be reunited with his/her LI. It's too much to hope with the state of the galaxy that they could take Kaidan's mom to meet Admiral Shepard on her ship and then after a cruise of the solar system, retire to run a bar in the Bahamas, with a little mercenary work on the side.

[3DandBeyond]

And @Holger,
Consider this...the Prothean VI was taken from Thessia by Cerberus and was in TIM's possession before Shepard got it back. Just who exactly was TIM working for at that time? The kid and his reapers. You have no way of knowing if the VI had been tampered with or if the VI's statements were correct. It could even have been made by some Prothean who'd been indoctrinated.

I'm just saying you have to trust too many things in order for you to erase all doubt about all of this stuff.

The Citadel was moved to Earth to help the harvesting. The conduit was created for harvesting. The kid lives on the Citadel where harvesting is taking place. And the kid and the reapers are one and the same, there's no way to separate them. Even worse is that the kid has the power, the reapers can't even shut themselves off, the kid controls them.

So, if a reaper was standing there telling Shepard the Crucible changed everything, would you believe him? In effect a reaper is standing there, the kid could be a reaper in sheep's clothing.

The problem is you can't say with 100% certainty that anything the kid says is true.  And unless you can (and because someone or some thing said so isn't proof), the kid could be lying.  And that is the only burden of proof needed to reject him.  Beyond that, the kid must conclusively prove to Shepard that what he says is all true or Shepard risks everyone's life on what could be a lie.

And my version is only set in stone with me, because it is the only thing that makes sense.  If I met someone so obviously evil, I would not believe him no matter what, but he should at least offer real proof.  He has always wanted to kill me and now he says the Crucible changed him.  Prove it.

Two questions for you to answer.  You may have answered elsewhere but for simplicity please indulge me here.
Do you believe the kid could be lying?
Do you believe the kid is evil?

If you answer yes to either of these, then to me it makes no sense to listen to him about anything.  I know the game doesn't give you any other option, but that's my point, the game should.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 mai 2012 - 03:39 .

[3DandBeyond]

@BearlyHere,
I first played on the PS3, so it was ME2 and 3. I was going to try a male Shepard, but I didn't like him at all, so I played a female one. And just made the choice of Liara. It was really weirdly done in the comic.

But, what happened is I played as Paragon and just felt dirty cheating on her, even as I said I did to get Kelly to feed my fish. I also did start to romance Thane (told him I wanted him), but the conversation options stopped for him, until later on and the romance stuff never came up again.

After that, I was given the xbox versions, and Kaidan's lines seemed crappy. He was really kind of insulting about some things when I started talking a lot to Liara (not romancing). He was telling me we had a job to do and not to get side-tracked, so well he pissed me off. Later he wanted romance with me and I told him to start acting professionally. I just didn't like the way they led into this. I didn't feel like I could naturally romance him after he'd been telling me how to run things.

Garrus, I just love Garrus, but am kind of glad the way things worked out, because I caught him kissing Tali.

[shepLJ]

Please re-read the forum of over two years ago...

Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light"

None of this has any consequence when read in conjunction with what was said several years before ME3 ..

[Redbelle]

@Bladehero

I wonder if it was the catalyst who created indoctrination to force unwilling organics to accept being Reaperised.

@ShepLJ

I'm doing a runthrough of ME from ME1, and now I know about the SC I'm keeping an eye out for anything that might be reference to them.... early days yet.

[George Costanza]

I spent most of the game assuming that the end would reveal that the Crucible was a Reaper tool of control; a false hope to waste our time and gather our forces to one area to be more easily wiped out. I was genuinely surprised when it wasn't, and it actually was just a really, really stupid plot device.

[Overmindonly]

3DandBeyond wrote...

No one really is going to look down upon you for having a theory.  People just want everyone to be respectful and so if you have one people should also respect that.  You may be too shy to publicly express your theory and that's ok, but you might really want to reconsider sharing it.  People may try to talk you out of it or disagree with it, but expressing your opinion is never wrong.  Just do so decently.

Otherwise, people can PM you to request your theory-it's whatever you want, but sometimes good debate is really a good thing.  We all can learn something.

I know that a debate can arise from many beautiful things, and I will not force anyone to believe by force to my theory. The problem is that I wrote so much that I would not be a problem. I'm not good at English and I wrote all in Italian. I wanted to know how to post what I wrote without stealing space to anyone. I really like the comparison with other people, especially if we share the same passion. Justwanted to ask a moderator what is the right way to do it, for the problemsmentioned here. That's it 

[chuckdrunkskunk]

Wow, reading this stuff, it makes me think what the hell bioware was thinking. In light of all this, how can they be happy with the ending? I'm hoping that all their press regarding their standing is just the biggest practical joke in history and when the new ending dlc comes out, all this was just a bad dream that we'll all have a laugh about. That time how bioware pulled a fast one over the majority of the gaming community....

[3DandBeyond]

shepLJ wrote...

Please re-read the forum of over two years ago...

Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light"

None of this has any consequence when read in conjunction with what was said several years before ME3 ..

Yes, that's something some will point to as the basis for the starkid, but...

This was a minor codex entry of what one eccentric Volus believed to be so.  So, in essence if this is the reason for the starkid, the major antagonists at the very last few moments of three games were substituted for beings within a minor entry.  But, that codex also says the beings of light are there to help, which in terms of the advanced organics of the time does not matter at all.  The current advanced organics are not going to think it's ok if the reapers harvest them because that means tree frogs can advance to the next cycle. 

When the writers put the kid in charge, they made him the reaper keeper, in control.  That makes him the guy who has been turning people into goo.  He gives no proof of anything he said and so what he says could be all lies.  But, even if he is being 100% honest, in what universe does it make sense that people would think it's ok to do anything that he offers.  He's been turning people into goo. 

And on a real gut level, Shepard's never wanted to control the reapers, even if it were possible.  If they existed in my life, and they'd been killing people, I can think of no option other than their destruction, that makes any kind of sense.  I would want them erased from my memory.  I wouldn't want them on a leash.  I wouldn't want to decide where they get their next meal-I'd want them gone.  But, I find the Destroy option repulsive on many levels. 

Even so, it's a circular route.  I'd find the choices as illogical as the other "logic" used by the starkid.  And I'd see him as either a warped AI or an avatar for the Reaper's consciousnesses.  As such his motivations are suspect.  There's also no clue as to who originally "programmed" whatever he is and their motivations.  Maybe the programmer hated all people because they picked on him.  Who knows?  I don't.

On the derelict reaper one of the indoctrinated scientists says that even mad gods can dream (an homage to Lovecraft), but it may be revealing.  The star kid could be an AI that went crazy in his godhood and maybe he was looking for a replacement or maybe his programming was looking for a sane replacement.  But it again sounds crazy when he says Shepard can control them and will die.  Maybe that's what happened to the star kid-he was an organic that was given control and died and became this being of just energy, but it drove him insane.  So, this could happen to Shepard.

Back to the point that Klencory might be the basis--consider that the head marketing guy for Bioware made many statements about what ME3 was supposed to do or be for the franchise.  He specifically stated that no one would remember minute details from ME1-he couldn't remember things that happened 8 years ago (ME1 came out 5 years ago).  So he was either saying the writers couldn't be expected to remember little things that happened early on in the games or that fans wouldn't (actually fans research everything), but then some people now believe they used one very forgettable minor point to base the whole ending on.

[3DandBeyond]

George Costanza wrote...

I spent most of the game assuming that the end would reveal that the Crucible was a Reaper tool of control; a false hope to waste our time and gather our forces to one area to be more easily wiped out. I was genuinely surprised when it wasn't, and it actually was just a really, really stupid plot device.

Yes, I always had issues with them spending so much time building something that they hadn't a clue about.  They invested time, resources, and people on what could be the biggest red herring ever.

And then in London, Shepard luckily finds a Cain laying on the ground that is used to destroy a Hades Cannon, which amazingly has no shielding?  Or, if it has shielding (which it shoudld have) then wouldn't it be possible to try using such a thing on other reapers.  Instead they are using conventional missiles against the one by the conduit.  I could have that all wrong, but people refer to the Cains as something like nuke launchers.

[Redbelle]

chuckdrunkskunk wrote...

Wow, reading this stuff, it makes me think what the hell bioware was thinking. In light of all this, how can they be happy with the ending? I'm hoping that all their press regarding their standing is just the biggest practical joke in history and when the new ending dlc comes out, all this was just a bad dream that we'll all have a laugh about. That time how bioware pulled a fast one over the majority of the gaming community....

It does raise the question of wheather the writing team who put the ending together feel a little embarressed. Put aside the actual content of the ending and focus on the pacing and the characterisation of the lead subjects and it feels like it's step falters....... get into the actual content of the SC's logic, etc, and things go from faltering to tripping, and then realise that the events of the past game are not reflected in the conversation,  an area ME games thrive in, and I for one was left perplexed that the culmination of the ME trilogy did not leave me with a feeling of accomplishment.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

chuckdrunkskunk wrote...

Wow, reading this stuff, it makes me think what the hell bioware was thinking. In light of all this, how can they be happy with the ending? I'm hoping that all their press regarding their standing is just the biggest practical joke in history and when the new ending dlc comes out, all this was just a bad dream that we'll all have a laugh about. That time how bioware pulled a fast one over the majority of the gaming community....

It does raise the question of wheather the writing team who put the ending together feel a little embarressed. Put aside the actual content of the ending and focus on the pacing and the characterisation of the lead subjects and it feels like it's step falters....... get into the actual content of the SC's logic, etc, and things go from faltering to tripping, and then realise that the events of the past game are not reflected in the conversation,  an area ME games thrive in, and I for one was left perplexed that the culmination of the ME trilogy did not leave me with a feeling of accomplishment.

That's one of the most glaring problems with it.  You are left with a sense of futility and where you should be in awe of how great the ending was, the awe is over someone thinking it makes sense, not just on its own merits, but within the context of these games.

The futility is created by all the in game elements that are just forgotten, the futility of playing and gathering all the assets-the player's feeling of futility.  But that's joined by what you see as the sense within the game of all that Shepard had to go through, including the whole dying in ME2 and all the other sacrifices made along the way, only to be greeted by the idiot boy brigade.  I mean, if I'd been fighting Harbinger, Sovereign, reaper creatures, and had seen all the piles of putrefying bodies lying on the Citadel, I would truly think someone had lost their mind in trying to get me to listen to the guy that put those bodies there.  But, if made to listen to him and forced to do as told, I would think nothing had been worth this.

[Archonsg]

Part if the problem is that the Catalyst, the Crucible and the whole starbrat episode stems from Bioware rewriting the end after the leak. It would not have been a problem had everyone in the creative team been on board and knew what what was going on.

Unfortunately, based by comments by the writers themselves and unofficial sources, that suggested the locking out of the creative team, which I believe to be true, the Catalyst, Crucible, Starbrat and MP end were all slapped on without oversight and thus, we have our ending.

In regards to the Crucible, It would not have been so bad had they kept it simple. Javik himself admitted to the fact that he was just a soldier and would not be privy to all things scientific or the development of weapons by the Protean Scientists. So why did they not just kept it simple and let the Crucible be something the Proteans were developing? More so, they could tie in with their war with their AIs. The Proteans were about to win, assumingly they developed something to "hack or break into" their AI's opponents frequencies, and this Crucible was just an extension of the project.

Makes sense?
Or at least more so then a "hand me down" schematic that no one knows what its for, what it would do and how to activate it from cycles past, I hope.
That is like someone telling me that for the past several thousand years, our ancestors found a schematic for a fusion plant, and not knowing what it is for and what it does, worked on it anyways and somehow refined those plans and now in the present day, we just need to put all the "Lego" pieces in place to get ourselves a working fusion plant. Huh what?!

Also consider this. For that ancient race to know just how this Crucible will work, that it is will affect the core programming of the AI Starbrat, it implies that the race knew of Starbat's existence and coding. So don't you think it would have more info on Starbrat and / or at the least make it suspicious of its origin? Made by the ones who made the reapers or was it made by the reapers themselves?

[LiarasShield]

BearlyHere wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Careful there, 3D, don't want to suppose that there is any set cannon to the game. Remember, up until the Failure- I mean the "ending" the game's totally open. Sure, Liara might have been the most logical choice or whatever, but honestly, as I know you already know, it's our own stories. Until the terribad endings. But you know what I means.

Nope, I wasn't suggesting that at all, because I also mentioned that Ashley and/or Kaidan were treated even worse than Liara in ME2.  And they could have been LIs as well.  I'm not casting my own preferences out there as the only way to do things.  What I was saying is that they removed certain LIs from our games and that Liara was put as DLC and then gone, but Ashley/Kaidan insults Shepard and is gone.  And then in ME3, Thane dies.  But most people that played from ME1 had a LI and may have wanted to be true, but the game seems to not want you to.

I have never said she was the canon romance at all-I do think that a lot of people have her as the LI, because they do seem to have done more work in scripting that romance, even with part of it being DLC.  Personally, with the male Shepard I had started, I would have gone for Tali, but I truly think that Shepard should have done the real face unveiling.  That would have been so touching.

But I will point out that it seems the choices for a female Shepard to romance are kind of slim pickings.

I played 2 before I because I had thought it was just a shooter, but I was given it by a friend who was getting rid of his xbox. Since I only knew Kaidan as that jerk on Horizon, and Thane and Garrus were aliens, my first fem Shep went for Jacob, grumbling that female players get short-changed again.  That romance really comes back to bite you in the butt in 3.

I liked 2 enough that I picked up 1, and missed out on Kaidan somehow my first time, so my new Fem Shep gave Liara the "we're both women" line and was loveless. But I really liked Thane the first time I played, so she hooked up with him. Whoever wrote him put a lot of thought into the dialog. At least in 3 Shep got a reunion/make-out session in the hospital and a touching death scene. Jacob I just wanted to punch.

My male ren Shep went for Tali. She was so much more interesting and fun than Liara, who he let down as gently as a renegade could. My last male Shep came out the first time Kaidan flirted with him. It would be nice to have a chance for Shep to live and be reunited with his/her LI. It's too much to hope with the state of the galaxy that they could take Kaidan's mom to meet Admiral Shepard on her ship and then after a cruise of the solar system, retire to run a bar in the Bahamas, with a little mercenary work on the side.

Actually I would say that liara is just as equally romantic as tali because she even goes to the length of finding shepards body in the hope that cerberus can bring back him or her and liara has always been deadicated to shepard wether as a friend or a lover from mass effect one and into mass effect 2 during the shadow broker dlc

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

snipped-----

Or at least more so then a "hand me down" schematic that no one knows what its for, what it would do and how to activate it from cycles past, I hope.
That is like someone telling me that for the past several thousand years, our ancestors found a schematic for a fusion plant, and not knowing what it is for and what it does, worked on it anyways and somehow refined those plans and now in the present day, we just need to put all the "Lego" pieces in place to get ourselves a working fusion plant. Huh what?!

Also consider this. For that ancient race to know just how this Crucible will work, that it is will affect the core programming of the AI Starbrat, it implies that the race knew of Starbat's existence and coding. So don't you think it would have more info on Starbrat and / or at the least make it suspicious of its origin? Made by the ones who made the reapers or was it made by the reapers themselves?

This is what I have real problems with with the Crucible.  People are absorbed in it with no real idea of why they believe it is anything other than a time waster.  It got everyone to focus on building it and doing little else.  Could they have perhaps maybe better spent their time and resources in outfitting every ship with Thanix cannons?  Or maybe creating more EDIs and using the targeting that took down the reaper on Rannoch.  I believe if it's believable that they could all get together and build something on this scale, then other things could have been created as well that might have actually done something that they knew about.  Also, Eva Core (the EDI body) took the data for the Crucible and what they retrieved from her body was not the complete plans.  The Prothean VI had the information on the Catalyst which all of a sudden was the only info they needed.  Well, what happened to the other parts of the plans?

And I totally agree with you, that whoever originally started the plans had to have some idea what it would do or how it would be used.  And this indicates inside information because Sovereign and Harbinger say the reapers are unknowable.  The kid isn't ever asked about who he is, but only ever says he controls the reapers.  Since he doesn't explain what or who he is at all, and speaks of being some big know it all who is out to save organic life (right), then he must see himself as unknowable as well.  So, how then would people just hit upon the idea of the Crucible which conveniently docks with the Citadel, the kid's home?

Then, after someone just magically figured out how to start to make a device to fight the reapers, other people just magically figured out how to make it better?  But no one knows how it works or what it will do?  Ok.  That's like telling me some really powerful armored guy out there somewhere who wants to kill me and I have to make something to fight him.  I'm pretty smart so I could make a gun, but instead I come up with plans to make something that can attach to the guy's house and do something.  And I put all of my knowledge and all of my resources into making this "something" because it may do "something".  Yes, this makes sense.  But it wouldn't make sense for me with my gun knowledge to try and build a more powerful gun that could shoot through this guy's armor?  Or in the case of the reapers, it wouldn't make sense to try and develop some sort of EMS pulse that could be shot at the reapers and that could be outfitted to as many ships as possible.

[3DandBeyond]

LiarasShield wrote...

Actually I would say that liara is just as equally romantic as tali because she even goes to the length of finding shepards body in the hope that cerberus can bring back him or her and liara has always been deadicated to shepard wether as a friend or a lover from mass effect one and into mass effect 2 during the shadow broker dlc

I think this is true of course, but anyone could make a case for whatever LI they chose.  And it's often just like whatever face or sex you first choose for Shepard.  For you, that becomes the more canon one.  I created one kind of imperfect face for my Shepard.  I played through ME2 with it and then ME3.  When I went back and tried new faces, they seemed wrong, so for me it's like the person isn't the real Shepard, so a different romance could work. 

Actually none of the characters that could be LIs is available consistently through all 3 games-to unlock the paramour achievement.  So, this just seems to be a kind of nasty trick.


But my only point about Tali is there's that scene where Shepard does unmask her and it's touching to a point, but if they were going to actually show her face, why not there?  Why not let us see her being happy with Shepard?

I think a lot of what touches all of us about our particular LI preference is the supposed promise of what the future could bring-a home for Tali, blue children for Liara, or the tormented redeemed character of someone so fated as Thane.  And then the hard shell, but soft core of Garrus-he was so wise always, but even he often acted more with his heart, such as on the loyalty mission and so he and Shepard did complement each other.  But, I always saw them as buddies, great buddies.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 mai 2012 - 03:37 .

[Redbelle]

You know..... there are bad endings....... and then there are really bad endings that despite plot holes, logic gaps etc etc, keep you hooked because the narrative and screenplay is so compelling.

For anyone who watched Captain America when he went down with the plane ask yourself, was that a bad ending..... (ok not quite the ending but near enough).

Now watch this and ask if, despite the plot holes, did you still enjoy it.

[Archonsg]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

snipped-----

Or at least more so then a "hand me down" schematic that no one knows what its for, what it would do and how to activate it from cycles past, I hope.
That is like someone telling me that for the past several thousand years, our ancestors found a schematic for a fusion plant, and not knowing what it is for and what it does, worked on it anyways and somehow refined those plans and now in the present day, we just need to put all the "Lego" pieces in place to get ourselves a working fusion plant. Huh what?!

Also consider this. For that ancient race to know just how this Crucible will work, that it is will affect the core programming of the AI Starbrat, it implies that the race knew of Starbat's existence and coding. So don't you think it would have more info on Starbrat and / or at the least make it suspicious of its origin? Made by the ones who made the reapers or was it made by the reapers themselves?

This is what I have real problems with with the Crucible.  People are absorbed in it with no real idea of why they believe it is anything other than a time waster.  It got everyone to focus on building it and doing little else.  Could they have perhaps maybe better spent their time and resources in outfitting every ship with Thanix cannons?  Or maybe creating more EDIs and using the targeting that took down the reaper on Rannoch.  I believe if it's believable that they could all get together and build something on this scale, then other things could have been created as well that might have actually done something that they knew about.  Also, Eva Core (the EDI body) took the data for the Crucible and what they retrieved from her body was not the complete plans.  The Prothean VI had the information on the Catalyst which all of a sudden was the only info they needed.  Well, what happened to the other parts of the plans?

And I totally agree with you, that whoever originally started the plans had to have some idea what it would do or how it would be used.  And this indicates inside information because Sovereign and Harbinger say the reapers are unknowable.  The kid isn't ever asked about who he is, but only ever says he controls the reapers.  Since he doesn't explain what or who he is at all, and speaks of being some big know it all who is out to save organic life (right), then he must see himself as unknowable as well.  So, how then would people just hit upon the idea of the Crucible which conveniently docks with the Citadel, the kid's home?

Then, after someone just magically figured out how to start to make a device to fight the reapers, other people just magically figured out how to make it better?  But no one knows how it works or what it will do?  Ok.  That's like telling me some really powerful armored guy out there somewhere who wants to kill me and I have to make something to fight him.  I'm pretty smart so I could make a gun, but instead I come up with plans to make something that can attach to the guy's house and do something.  And I put all of my knowledge and all of my resources into making this "something" because it may do "something".  Yes, this makes sense.  But it wouldn't make sense for me with my gun knowledge to try and build a more powerful gun that could shoot through this guy's armor?  Or in the case of the reapers, it wouldn't make sense to try and develop some sort of EMS pulse that could be shot at the reapers and that could be outfitted to as many ships as possible.

I was thinking along the lines of how this would tie in from previous lore and how, carrying forward would allow the player to combat the Reapers AND give the players an opportunity to fight Harbinger in a boss fight.

Just like in the Rannoch campign. Have Shepard and crew work to get the crucible in place, use the Citadel as the primary signal booster since its the biggest Relay built, and the ever elusive catalyst, living minds. It would be a nice touch if they can figure a way for all squad members to be present and willing to be plugged in along with Shepard, emphasizing that the design originally called for a dozen, or more willing souls to battle the Reaper's overmind.

Why? Because it would mean the player who saved his entire squad in ME2 and have their loyalty would stand a better chance then the player who lost more then one along the way.

This I think would resound fairly well would most ME veterans and give those who didn't do too well, incentive to replay the series yes?

Then of course we'd have our battle with Harbinger via VR interface, with each companion dropping off to take on an aspect of the Reaper's core programming till its just you and you squad. Fate of your companions unknown, (based on EMS I would guess, as much as I do not like its implementation) and its time to really kick Reaper ass or die trying.

PS; forgot to add, it won't just be a hard EMS score to determine if your squadmates past and present dies, it should take into account loyalty, side missions done as well as actual assets. My MP N7 5000++ ems asset should not be the only thing needed to keep everyone alive.

Modifié par Archonsg, 29 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...



I was thinking along the lines of how this would tie in from previous lore and how, carrying forward would allow the player to combat the Reapers AND give the players an opportunity to fight Harbinger in a boss fight.

Just like in the Rannoch campign. Have Shepard and crew work to get the crucible in place, use the Citadel as the primary signal booster since its the biggest Relay built, and the ever elusive catalyst, living minds. It would be a nice touch if they can figure a way for all squad members to be present and willing to be plugged in along with Shepard, emphasizing that the design originally called for a dozen, or more willing souls to battle the Reaper's overmind.

Why? Because it would mean the player who saved his entire squad in ME2 and have their loyalty would stand a better chance then the player who lost more then one along the way.

This I think would resound fairly well would most ME veterans and give those who didn't do too well, incentive to replay the series yes?

Then of course we'd have our battle with Harbinger via VR interface, with each companion dropping off to take on an aspect of the Reaper's core programming till its just you and you squad. Fate of your companions unknown, (based on EMS I would guess, as much as I do not like its implementation) and its time to really kick Reaper ass or die trying.

PS; forgot to add, it won't just be a hard EMS score to determine if your squadmates past and present dies, it should take into account loyalty, side missions done as well as actual assets. My MP N7 5000++ ems asset should not be the only thing needed to keep everyone alive.

I absolutely agree-this idea that EMS determines everything doesn't take into account the quality of the decisions made.  It boils it down to mere numbers which can be attained in some different ways.  I'm not saying there should be some cut and dry god's view (player's view) way to play every last detail, but I do think that there could be many ways that different decisions would come together to make a whole and give someone the best chance at an ending and then different endings.  It's actually kind of like some choices that should not contradict each other - so if you are a renegade toward a certain goal, you may be rewarded for choosing some option elsewhere that makes sense for this character.

That may seem hard to do, but I think it could be done.  Since everything is basically assigned points.

At the end of ME2, it wasn't only loyalty that determined whether everyone survived or not.  It was also who you put in key positions (and whether or not they were loyal) and then it was also about timing.  It was easy enough to go back and "fix" some things, but it did take me a few tries to figure it all out.

It actually seems like they started down this route with the minimum EMS needed for each choice.  For instance, if you save the Collector's base in ME2, the minimum for the Control option is lower.  And if you destroyed the base, the minimum for the Destroy option is lower.

[Archonsg]

Still quiet on the EC news. Wonder just how much more is being done to fix things.
The Rebellion MP DLC is out, yet another MP thing to grind over. Still, got over a million credits sitting on the side, would love that new sniper rifle and engineer class, and the new mission / locales sounds interesting.
Just want my SP and ending though.