23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

Still quiet on the EC news. Wonder just how much more is being done to fix things.
The Rebellion MP DLC is out, yet another MP thing to grind over. Still, got over a million credits sitting on the side, would love that new sniper rifle and engineer class, and the new mission / locales sounds interesting.
Just want my SP and ending though.

The most compelling thing about it for me is the Phoenix class.  I downloaded this, but only see the addition of the male Quarian, human males, and vorcha when I took a quick peak.  And the human male has a "lash" power, which as yet does not exist in the SP game.  Some of this may end up just being MP stuff, but it would be interesting if this is supposed to end up in SP.

[3DandBeyond]

Never mind, just found out what the Phoenix is. Major disappointment.

[BlueStorm83]

---  I was at work today, considering heroic sacrifice.  And it hit me:  Anyone remember the Hero ending of inFamous 2?  That was a heroic sacrifice in a serious badass way, and it was touching as all hell.  Shame Shep couldn't have gone out that way, saving Zeke.  lawl.

---  I also just looked up that Klencory "Beings of light" thing.  People who think that was a foreshadowing of the ME3 ending are missing one thing.  If a Being of Light is going to save us from Machine Devils... HE SHOULD NOT MAKE GOD DAMN MOTHER ****ING MACHINE DEVILS.

---  Re-read that last thing I wrote.

---  I'm actually a bit pshyched about the Vorcha, Male Quarrian, and especially Cerberus characters for the multiplayer.  Makes all that recruiting and helping and forgiving that I did in Single Player feel like that it mattered.  Personally, I like to think that after Harbinger incinerated Shepard in that beam, and the Citadel Scene NEVER HAPPENED, my Multiplayer characters all saved the day.  Led by my gold-armored Vanguard, Samuel Berg.  I even have a little themesong that I sing for him, when I play as him.  I'd like the next multi-pack they release to include some Eclipse, Blood Pack, and Blue Suns guys.  Yeah, they're just humans, salarians, krogan, and vorcha.  So what?  I like their feel.

---  Wouldn't it be nice if we all really WERE too stupid to understand the ending, and it wasn't actually really really bad and stupid?

---  Go back and read the Klencory thing one more time.  I really want to put that to bed.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 30 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[Holger1405]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Since 3DandBeyond hasn't replied to Holger's latest, I'll take a small crack at one part of it.

Holger says that there's no evidence that the Crucible is a Reaper Trap. True. But there isstill the possibility, even the liklihood of it. Javik and the Prothean VI both say that the Crucible is cycles and cycles older than they all thought it was; that every cycle adds to and improves on it.

To me, this introduced the STRONG possibility that the Reapers had created the plans, and at least used it as a Red Herring to keep the organic peoples attention while they were Reaped. When we find out in the end that "The Crucible has added new possibilities" as Starboy says, I immediately thought that this was all part of their plan. I figured that the Reapers, or Starboy himself, had theorized that through the crucible they could, I don't know, do something that they wanted. The Synthesis Option is positive for the Reapers. The Control Option puts us in a situation where Reapers survive and there's a body-less consciousness controlling the reapers; exactly what we have when Shepard encounters Starboy. And the Destroy Option kills the reapers, but ALSO kills your Synthetic allies. Synthesis seems like the "best" option when you discount the horrible horrible injustice done to people when you pick it.

I have to wonder, are we SURE that nobody ever completed the Crucible before? Javik said no, but he didn't know about Ilos. He was a soldier, some kind of officer, but would he know if the Crucible was completed or not? I don't think so. Maybe they provided the Crucible just waiting for some cycle to come along where someone would pick Synthesis. Maybe they need a willing merger, forcing it just results in abominations.

I like your way of thinking.
But  there are imho a few Problems.
First, if the Reapers did created the plans for the Crucible, it would be incredible stupid of them to include one option that leads to their own destruction, and another option that could lead to their own destruction. (I will explain the second option later on.)
Thus can it be possible that the Catalyst, as the entity who controls the Reapers, created the plans.
Same problem her, one option contradicts the Catalyst's goals and his logic verifiably, another option at least can do that.  

The first Option, the option that provable leads to the destruction of the Reapers is, how ironic:  destruction. (Also the Option that contradicts the Catalyst's goals and his logic verifiably.)

Thus what is the second Option? Well, Control.
A lot of People say that Control is a terrible option, because it would be TIM's choice, but I disagree.

If someone has "control" over something, than the most important question is always, who is the "controller." What are his/her goals. A real live example: The second world war occur because Hitler was in control of the German Wehrmacht. If, for example, Gandhi would had the control over the German forces, the war would never to happen.

It's not "some body-less consciousness", or a fascistic opportunist like TIM who controls the Reapers after you choose control, it's YOUR Shepard.     
 
Imho control is intended to be the Paragon choice. Shepard sacrifice herself/himself to save everyone, the Organic Races and the Geth, and ALL of her/his friends.

And Afterwards, when Shepard control the Reapers?  Well you have to use your own imagination, (That's the Part I like regarding the endings, and I don't get why so many People have such a big Problem with that.) so I can only tell you what my Shep would do. Ordering the reaper ground forces to Cease fire, than let them commit suicide, that followed by flying every Reaper into the next sun. And Yes, he can do that, because he controls the Reapers.         


   

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Consider what the Reapers do when they learn that we've built the Crucible: They take the Citadel, which is the CATALYST, to Earth. Our Homeworld. Which we have just assembled a SUPERFLEET to retake. Then they build a Conduit to it. A conduit that goes not just to the Citadel, but to a hallway that's about, let's say, 200 yards from the Catalyst/Crucible control room. When the Crucible is attached to the Citadel, the arms are WIDE open. The Arms are held on by tiny little structures. The Crucible's armor has come off. It's docked on that flimsy little ring there. The Crucible is the ULTIMATE WEAPON, right? It can destroy the Reapers, RIGHT?!?!

Not even ONE Reaper seems interested in this. None of them take a shot at it. They don't send any banshees or brutes or harvesters or cannibals or even husks into the Conduit after Shepard.

Snipped-----

Two Points,
first, the Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him, (I already explained way I think that this is true.)  So when the Crucible docks the changing process must started immediately and that's is a explanation way the Reapers do not try to destroy the Crucible.

second
I think that the Reapers are programmed not to damage the Citadel, because, a.) their "controller" is "living" there. b.) The Citadel controls the Mass Relays and the Reapers need them.  
When Shepard is brought up by the Catalyst, she/he and the catalyst are directly at the docking point of the Crucible. Destroying the Crucible, which must hold an enormous amount of energy, while at the same time the Citadel arms are open, would lead to at least massive damage to the Citadel, probably to their destruction.    

At last, as I said, I like your thinking, still there is imho neither in game evidence, nor even the slightest hint that the Crucible is anything else as the weapon the game describes it to be.   

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

And @Holger,
Consider this...the Prothean VI was taken from Thessia by Cerberus and was in TIM's possession before Shepard got it back. Just who exactly was TIM working for at that time? The kid and his reapers. You have no way of knowing if the VI had been tampered with or if the VI's statements were correct. It could even have been made by some Prothean who'd been indoctrinated.

I can consider this, but if I consider this, I can also consider that Liara is an indoctrinated agent of the Reapers, because she gave me the Plan's for the Crucible in the first Place.
See, I can consider all of this. The problem is the game didn't tell us so.

As I said before, there is no in game evidence for the Crucible as a Reaper trap.
There is no in game evidence for the Prothean VI altered by TIM
There is no in game evidence for the Prothean Vi made by an indoctrinated Prothean.
If you start to ignore the plot (or canon, and make no mistake, there is canon in Mass Effect.) as basic principle for your thinking then a.) there is no ground for a debate, because you can consider almost everything and b.) you start to Metagaming because the information's given to your Shepard are contradicting you considerations. (or speculations)

      

3DandBeyond wrote...
I'm just saying you have to trust too many things in order for you to erase all doubt about all of this stuff.

The Citadel was moved to Earth to help the harvesting. The conduit was created for harvesting. The kid lives on the Citadel where harvesting is taking place. And the kid and the reapers are one and the same, there's no way to separate them. Even worse is that the kid has the power, the reapers can't even shut themselves off, the kid controls them.

So, if a reaper was standing there telling Shepard the Crucible changed everything, would you believe him? In effect a reaper is standing there, the kid could be a reaper in sheep's clothing.

If it would be a Reaper who just didn't let my Shepard die, despite the fact that the only logical decision for him should be to let her/him die, (if noting changed), an despite the fact that all Reaper forces did try really hard to kill my Shepard just a few minutes ago, yes I would consider it.

3DandBeyond wrote...
The problem is you can't say with 100% certainty that anything the kid says is true.  And unless you can (and because someone or some thing said so isn't proof), the kid could be lying.  And that is the only burden of proof needed to reject him.  Beyond that, the kid must conclusively prove to Shepard that what he says is all true or Shepard risks everyone's life on what could be a lie.

And my version is only set in stone with me, because it is the only thing that makes sense.  If I met someone so obviously evil, I would not believe him no matter what, but he should at least offer real proof.  He has always wanted to kill me and now he says the Crucible changed him.  Prove it.

"100% certainty" Ok, lets see, you said your Shepard is a full bar Paragon. Then I assume that you did save the Rachni queen on Noveria and also on Utukku. Which 100 % certain proof did you have, that her race is in fact not violent? That she will help you truly against the Reapers?  
The information the Game gave to you up to the point on Noveria clearly indicates that the Rachni are dangerous, even a threat for the entire galaxy.

Thus, simple, no proof at all, you only have the word of the queen. (btw I let her go too, what can I say, I'm an optimist. :-)  )


On Utukku or maybe before on Tuchanka you must realize that your thrust didn't pay off. The Rachni fighting you once more. And if you let the queen leave again, it's the same all over again, no 100% certainty, only trust. (Yes I did it too... big optimist. )

If I be mistaken, and you didn't let the queen go, well it's practically the same with the Geth on  Rannoch. The Geth with the Reaper upgrades are practically a new race. There is no absolute certain proof that they will be friendly after the upload, (I admit, you have good background information due to the mission in the Geth server, but still no 100 % certain proof) furthermore in the moment you allow Legion to make the upload, the Geth have the intention to eradicate the Quarian's and you have no certainty at all that you will be able to convince the Quarian's to stop their attack.
And so I could go on, because there are many other examples in the games.   

3DandBeyond wrote...
Two questions for you to answer.  You may have answered elsewhere but for simplicity please indulge me here.
Do you believe the kid could be lying?
Do you believe the kid is evil?

"Do you believe the kid could be lying?"
Of course it could be lying, in every conversation I have it is possible that someone is lying to me, but I see no reason at all for the Catalyst to lie to my Shepard after he didn't let her/him die.

"Do you believe the kid is evil?"
At first I did, now, I'm not so sure anymore. There are simple not enough information's about what the Catalyst really is.
Maybe it's an advanced AI, but with restriction like EDI before Joker freed her. If that's would be the case, it couldn't be labeled as evil. (his doings yes, but not the Catalyst itself because he wouldn't have free will.)


Well we argued a lot, so something different for a change.
neehs.deviantart.com/gallery/
I stumbled over this, and figured that you are a Liara fan. Maybe you know this Page already, or maybe you don't like the contents, but I hope you like it.

Modifié par Holger1405, 30 mai 2012 - 01:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...


I like your way of thinking.
But  there are imho a few Problems.
First, if the Reapers did created the plans for the Crucible, it would be incredible stupid of them to include one option that leads to their own destruction, and another option that could lead to their own destruction. (I will explain the second option later on.)
Thus can it be possible that the Catalyst, as the entity who controls the Reapers, created the plans.
Same problem her, one option contradicts the Catalyst's goals and his logic verifiably, another option at least can do that.  

The first Option, the option that provable leads to the destruction of the Reapers is, how ironic:  destruction. (Also the Option that contradicts the Catalyst's goals and his logic verifiably.)

Thus what is the second Option? Well, Control.
A lot of People say that Control is a terrible option, because it would be TIM's choice, but I disagree.

If someone has "control" over something, than the most important question is always, who is the "controller." What are his/her goals. A real live example: The second world war occur because Hitler was in control of the German Wehrmacht. If, for example, Gandhi would had the control over the German forces, the war would never to happen.

It's not "some body-less consciousness", or a fascistic opportunist like TIM who controls the Reapers after you choose control, it's YOUR Shepard.     
 
Imho control is intended to be the Paragon choice. Shepard sacrifice herself/himself to save everyone, the Organic Races and the Geth, and ALL of her/his friends.

And Afterwards, when Shepard control the Reapers?  Well you have to use your own imagination, (That's the Part I like regarding the endings, and I don't get why so many People have such a big Problem with that.) so I can only tell you what my Shep would do. Ordering the reaper ground forces to Cease fire, than let them commit suicide, that followed by flying every Reaper into the next sun. And Yes, he can do that, because he controls the Reapers.         


   

What we are saying is the starkid has labeled a choice Destroy, but Shepard does not know that it will destroy anything.  We are looking at this from Shepard's point of view.  Shepard has to trust the kid when the kid says that will destroy the reapers, but s/he wouldn't and shouldn't.  That is why this part of the game is illogical.

As for Control-that choice again may not be even about control at all.  Shepard has no way of knowing what it will do.  And the kid doesn't say he's giving up all control-he says he had to change his solutiion.  So, these three choices are still his solution and he has always been killing people.  Beyond that, control of any kind has always corrupted the person in control.  And Shepard has spoken out against it numerous times throughout the game in reference to less evil things than the reapers.  Consider that the star kid now controls them and he has never stopped them from making people goo-in fact, he's encouraged it.  So, Shepard is just supposed to believe that somehow magically before dying s/he can control the reapers, or something else that is not defined at all.  Ask a question, Shepard.

I had made a comment about control and Hitler and I just can't leave it there and won't go there.  This is about fictional reapers and the people that have tried to control them have always changed or been changed.  Even TIM originally had some altruistic ideas and he was the only person willing to try to do something, twisted though he utlimately was.

You really do have to stop, put yourself in Shepard's place and use only what Shepard knows at the time.  Shepard has no proof that the kid has not been behind this all the time.  No one knows where the Crucible plans came from.    And the main point goes back to credibility-the kid is evil.  Evil people lie.  If you control evil things and do not stop them-though he even says he created them, then you are evil.

The Citadel is the kid's home-he says that.  And there are dead people everywhere.  The Citadel was moved to Earth to make harvesting easier.  And, the Citadel was made by the reapers.  So, the Crucible conveniently attaches to the Citadel, but none of the reapers attack it.  This makes no sense if it really could destroy them.  And keep in mind that before Shepard got up top to see the kid, the kid's solution had not yet changed.  So, he was still using his only solution-killing people.  He would see the Crucible as a threat unless he had a hand in making it.  Again, I'm not talking about what happens and what the player does. 

What we've been saying constantly is that the game changes how Shepard or any person would logically act when meeting this star kid.  No person would take what he is saying without proof.  And the kid can't give any proof.  So, a person would have to trust the kid (no way) or feel they have no choice.  This is a big failure of the ending-there's no ability to either ask for proof and no ability other than to quit the game, to reject this nonsense.

And no, Control is not the paragon choice at all.  In fact, if you save the Collector's base in ME2 (a non-paragon choice), the minimum EMS needed to get Control as a choice is lower.  Destroying the Collector's base is the paragon option and means the minimum EMS needed to get Destroy as an option is lower.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 11:59 .

[3DandBeyond]

Holger, I've read what you've said and I respect your opinion and that you are here expressing them, but...
You think the kid could be lying, but you can't see why he would. Well, maybe he likes turning people into goo. In real life you'd have to believe this is ok in order to accept anything he says.

And there's a different reason to trust the Rachni Queen. Each time she had been held against her will. She had clearly stated her hatred for the reapers and gave reasons why AND Shepard asked. It is easy to believe someone hates the person that took their children and turned them into reaper creatures. Of course I would believe her-and she also didn't go back on her word or the Rachni didn't. They were taken and changed and forced to go and kill. So, yes I trusted her and I also needed her and figured she could be useful. Lastly, I took pity on her because she was hurt.

The star kid was the one doing all the hurting. The star kid was doing all the killing. The star kid was in control and never stopped doing the killing. And the star kid needed Shepard's help-and the help may have been to make it easier to turn people into goo.

You said at first you thought he could be evil-well he is. It's about perspective. If I am a shark (with a brain) and people are trying to kill me, I don't like them very much. There are people out there that because I am not like them, may see me as evil and try to kill me, but if they do that then I think they are evil. It's from my personal point of view. I don't see how it's ambiguous-the guy turning people into goo is evil if you are a person. If you are a reaper, he's your best friend.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 03:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

---  I also just looked up that Klencory "Beings of light" thing.  People who think that was a foreshadowing of the ME3 ending are missing one thing.  If a Being of Light is going to save us from Machine Devils... HE SHOULD NOT MAKE GOD DAMN MOTHER ****ING MACHINE DEVILS.

---  Re-read that last thing I wrote.

-snipped
---  Go back and read the Klencory thing one more time.  I really want to put that to bed.

Yeah the Klencory thing never made too much sense-people point to it because it's the only reference to glowing people.  But even if it fit completely, it's still a very minor codex entry on what one Volus believes.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 12:29 .

[3DandBeyond]

Holger,
The most succinct way I can put this is this. You are putting the lives of trillions of people into the hands of the kid and he's the one that has been killing them. You are trusting someone that you even admit could be lying. And risking all these lives on what he says. He didn't kill Shepard because he said he needed him/her. And everything that he has done has been to make harvesting easier, moving the Citadel for one.  So the Crucible could just help harvesting. So, if Shepard makes a choice they could all be lies. Just because one is called "destroy" does not mean it will destroy the reapers. Just because one is called control or synthesis doesn't mean they will do anything either. This could all be the illusion of choice and the game fails because Shepard doesn't seem to care or Shepard does seem to trust the evil kid.

And you are evil if you control evil and have it do evil things.  Please explain how any person living in the galaxy would see the kid as not evil.  He even comes to Shepard using a non-threatening appearance, the least threatening. 

Thanks for the deviant art link, some funny things there.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 12:31 .

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...







again the catalyst isnt the good guy the enemy that has been destroying advanced organics for generations and then saying their going to save us from advanced synthetics but then use the geth to kill us or fight us with their reaper code after nearly destroying the galaxy and do this a thousand times over do you really think the reapers are just gonna sit down and drink milk and cookies with us I hardly doubt so

In A situation where the enemy that your fighting or brought all your forces to beat it makes no sense to automaticlly give into said enemy with circular logic that can be torn apart and then forced into 3 choices that either sound suicidal and ends up traping all your forces or commiting mass genocide to races like the geth and the quarians

Or turing everybody into half machines or half organic hybrids against their will destroying individuality evolution to affect real change to destroy the whole essence of bringing different people together to accomplish a goal

And No one has ever been able to control the reapers so it makes no sense why it would be able to work now when the illusive man and saren both failed to do so and how is shepard controlling the reapers if his or her body is destroyed how in hells name are the reapers being controlled and in any of the endings where the main villian lives what makes you think they won't try to harvest or commit mass genocide again it just


*Deep breath* dear god I just oooooih *Facepalms


Maybe from now on on every post I make I shall have this picture accompanie it

Thought this was kinda cool

Yeah a sacrifical ending is fine if you end up saving the people you sacrifice for but giving into the enemy and then having the enemy pick what you should or force you into 3 terrible choices that personally as player and as shepard would probably never do I'm sorry

I'd rather fight the reapers to the end and depending on how high ems is how bad we lose or how good we win with keeping the relays intact so all the forces can go home and have loyal squad stay with us and the fleets

And why Can't mass effect 3 have a good ending or at least a victory ending mass effect 1 had one mass effect 2 had one 99% of mass effect 3 despite the noble and sad sacrifices had heroic and well done moments so why in the ending where everything is suppose to make sense where we are suppose to be reaching a decent conclusion does everything lose cohesion losing gallons of blood or not I wouldn't give in or accept the cataylst without questioning my own sanity because he created the reapers he is using the reapers to destroy organics for aeons on end and is still using the reapers to destroy my forces as we are having this very conversation with the catalyst


And ultimately why would I Trapt my own forces or let the enemy that has been destroying life for thousand of years or is destroying us during most of the final game why in hells name would I let them live so that they can potentially kill us all over again I just sweet christmas U_u

At the end of the day a defeat is a defeat I wish our choices would've mattered I wish we could've really beaten the reapers espically under our own steam and not their creators wishes

The new multiplayer dlc is pretty fun loving the new cerberus vanguard and fighting to defend thessia in multiplayer

[dvd1154]

the ending needs a big old type of war were even thing your have makes the ending work not three choices a,b or c it should be made by the why you play the game your choices in the war not a,b, or c crazy madness

[dvd1154]

the great battle should be the ending your choices in it were the fleets go and were your ships go what reapers to attack what planets to save and the out come of the choices it the war with the fleets that would be a good ending to me

[dvd1154]

you are the leader of the fleets in the war against the reapers why can't you leade the fleets in the war against the reapers???? your choices should decide what fleets get destroy and what planet get destroyed and people survive the war geth human etc etc etc etc etc

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...

What we are saying is the starkid has labeled a choice Destroy, but Shepard does not know that it will destroy anything.  We are looking at this from Shepard's point of view.  Shepard has to trust the kid when the kid says that will destroy the reapers, but s/he wouldn't and shouldn't.  That is why this part of the game is illogical.

If my logic is sound, and I think it is, Shepard has a good reason to belief that the Catalyst is telling the truth.  

3DandBeyond wrote...
As for Control-that choice again may not be even about control at all.  Shepard has no way of knowing what it will do.  And the kid doesn't say he's giving up all control-he says he had to change his solutiion.  So, these three choices are still his solution and he has always been killing people.  Beyond that, control of any kind has always corrupted the person in control.  And Shepard has spoken out against it numerous times throughout the game in reference to less evil things than the reapers.  Consider that the star kid now controls them and he has never stopped them from making people goo-in fact, he's encouraged it.  So, Shepard is just supposed to believe that somehow magically before dying s/he can control the reapers, or something else that is not defined at all.  Ask a question, Shepard.

The Catalyst said: "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities." so the Crucible created the new possibilities, not the Catalyst.

But I agree, Shepard did reject control over others in the game, but this is not about to take free will away from EDI, the Geth or someone else, it is about stopping the Reapers from killing everyone.        

3DandBeyond wrote...
I had made a comment about control and Hitler and I just can't leave it there and won't go there.  This is about fictional reapers and the people that have tried to control them have always changed or been changed.  Even TIM originally had some altruistic ideas and he was the only person willing to try to do something, twisted though he utlimately was.

Well if you belief that Shepard is like TIM, not stronger, with more willpower. I think she/he is.  

3DandBeyond wrote...
You really do have to stop, put yourself in Shepard's place and use only what Shepard knows at the time.  Shepard has no proof that the kid has not been behind this all the time.  No one knows where the Crucible plans came from.    And the main point goes back to credibility-the kid is evil.  Evil people lie.  If you control evil things and do not stop them-though he even says he created them, then you are evil.

I think I do, and you don't. Shepard knows what the crucible is. Four trustworthy characters are telling him that it is a Weapon against the Reapers. (Liara, Hackett, Javik and the Prothean VI)
You are the one who are speculating outside Shepards in game knowledge.
 
About the Catalyst. We don't know what the Catalyst really is. Is he alive, or just a advanced computer program? So with the knowledge the game gave us about him, it's not possible to determinate if he is evil ore not. That isn't a good thing, and it shouldn't be so, but only the DLC can change that.      

3DandBeyond wrote...
The Citadel is the kid's home-he says that.  And there are dead people everywhere.  The Citadel was moved to Earth to make harvesting easier.  And, the Citadel was made by the reapers.  So, the Crucible conveniently attaches to the Citadel, but none of the reapers attack it.  This makes no sense if it really could destroy them.  And keep in mind that before Shepard got up top to see the kid, the kid's solution had not yet changed.  So, he was still using his only solution-killing people.  He would see the Crucible as a threat unless he had a hand in making it.  Again, I'm not talking about what happens and what the player does.

The game explains way the Crucible can dock on the Citadel without being destroyed. After the Crucible docks:

Holger1405 wrote...
Two Points,
first, the Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him, (I already explained way I think that this is true.)  So when the Crucible docks the changing process must started immediately and that's is a explanation way the Reapers do not try to destroy the Crucible.

second
I think that the Reapers are programmed not to damage the Citadel, because, a.) their "controller" is "living" there. b.) The Citadel controls the Mass Relays and the Reapers need them.  
When Shepard is brought up by the Catalyst, she/he and the catalyst are directly at the docking point of the Crucible. Destroying the Crucible, which must hold an enormous amount of energy, while at the same time the Citadel arms are open, would lead to at least massive damage to the Citadel, probably to their destruction.

   

3DandBeyond wrote...
And no, Control is not the paragon choice at all.  In fact, if you save the Collector's base in ME2 (a non-paragon choice), the minimum EMS needed to get Control as a choice is lower.  Destroying the Collector's base is the paragon option and means the minimum EMS needed to get Destroy as an option is lower.

Shepard save everyone if he choose control, that is imho very paragon.  

3DandBeyond wrote...
And there's a different reason to trust the Rachni Queen. Each time she had been held against her will. She had clearly stated her hatred for the reapers and gave reasons why AND Shepard asked. It is easy to believe someone hates the person that took their children and turned them into reaper creatures. Of course I would believe her-and she also didn't go back on her word or the Rachni didn't. They were taken and changed and forced to go and kill. So, yes I trusted her and I also needed her and figured she could be useful. Lastly, I took pity on her because she was hurt.

" She had clearly stated...." Yes, she did. And that's it. There is no proof whatsoever. Thus basically you (we) trusted the old enemy of the Galaxy on her word, and made a decision that, if it go wrong, would cost millions and millions of lives.   
Imho there is more reason (or proof) to trust the Catalyst that he had changed, than to trust the Rachni queen.   

[LiarasShield]

[quote]LiarasShield wrote...

[quote]LiarasShield wrote...







again the catalyst isnt the good guy the enemy that has been destroying advanced organics for generations and then saying their going to save us from advanced synthetics but then use the geth to kill us or fight us with their reaper code after nearly destroying the galaxy and do this a thousand times over do you really think the reapers are just gonna sit down and drink milk and cookies with us I hardly doubt so

In A situation where the enemy that your fighting or brought all your forces to beat it makes no sense to automaticlly give into said enemy with circular logic that can be torn apart and then forced into 3 choices that either sound suicidal and ends up traping all your forces or commiting mass genocide to races like the geth and the quarians

Or turing everybody into half machines or half organic hybrids against their will destroying individuality evolution to affect real change to destroy the whole essence of bringing different people together to accomplish a goal

And No one has ever been able to control the reapers so it makes no sense why it would be able to work now when the illusive man and saren both failed to do so and how is shepard controlling the reapers if his or her body is destroyed how in hells name are the reapers being controlled and in any of the endings where the main villian lives what makes you think they won't try to harvest or commit mass genocide again it just


*Deep breath* dear god I just oooooih *Facepalms


Maybe from now on on every post I make I shall have this picture accompanie it

Thought this was kinda cool


[/quote]


Yeah a sacrifical ending is fine if you end up saving the people you sacrifice for but giving into the enemy and then having the enemy pick what you should or force you into 3 terrible choices that personally as player and as shepard would probably never do I'm sorry

I'd rather fight the reapers to the end and depending on how high ems is how bad we lose or how good we win with keeping the relays intact so all the forces can go home and have loyal squad stay with us and the fleets

And why Can't mass effect 3 have a good ending or at least a victory ending mass effect 1 had one mass effect 2 had one 99% of mass effect 3 despite the noble and sad sacrifices had heroic and well done moments so why in the ending where everything is suppose to make sense where we are suppose to be reaching a decent conclusion does everything lose cohesion losing gallons of blood or not I wouldn't give in or accept the cataylst without questioning my own sanity because he created the reapers he is using the reapers to destroy organics for aeons on end and is still using the reapers to destroy my forces as we are having this very conversation with the catalyst


And ultimately why would I Trapt my own forces or let the enemy that has been destroying life for thousand of years or is destroying us during most of the final game why in hells name would I let them live so that they can potentially kill us all over again I just sweet christmas U_u

At the end of the day a defeat is a defeat I wish our choices would've mattered I wish we could've really beaten the reapers espically under our own steam and not their creators wishes

Well 3dand makes decent points with the rachni queen and we only ecounter the catalyst once and know nothing of the catalyst until the last 10 minuts we encountered the orginally rachi queen in mass effect one she wanted revenge against the reapers and her forces being manipulated by the reapers and if you let her live in the import of me3 then she won't betray like the the reaper created rachni queen

[3DandBeyond]

Liarashield,
You've been saying it just about longer than anyone else. Shepard shouldn't just believe the star kid. He's been doing evil things. He's been carrying out his "solution" which is to kill advanced organics and as an advanced organic, Shepard shouldn't just believe him. He says the Crucible changed him, but we only have his word on it and he has been doing evil things so he is not trustworthy. The fact that his original solution that he decided upon involved sending reapers to make people paste calls into question his "sanity".

But the kid's motives don't matter. He could actually think he is doing things for a good cause. If I were a reaper that would be ok, but as a human being (when he's been making human being goo), I couldn't help but see him as evil. He had the "off" switch but kept killing people.

To me, there's no gray area. Shepard is a person and s/he doesn't like the reapers for killing other people. The kid owns the reapers and is in charge of the killing. It's cut and dry. The kid is the evil, even more than the reapers, because he's been in control. They have had to do what he made them do. If the kid looked like Harbinger or Sovereign or Saren or TIM, Shepard would not listen to him. But Shepard isn't stupid either and would have to think this image of a kid was a new tactic.

When Shepard defeated the Collectors or at the end of The Arrival (I cannot remember which but I am pretty sure it was the Collector base), Harbinger said they would find a new solution. Sound familiar? In fact, it seems very likely that the star kid is Harbinger, the oldest reaper. He and Sovereign constantly echoed things the kid says later. They are of one mind or have one singular thought. And it has never been for the good of all organics.

Their real purpose is as murky as can be, but it's very obvious to me that this at least is true; if the reapers did nor harvest organic life, they would die. So my belief is that they are using subterfuge to mislead Shepard at the end. Harbinger kept trying to achieve their end goal of sucking up organic life that they need to exist. He kept hitting Shepard over the head with a hammer, but Shepard kept coming back. The Crucible is ambiguous at best-the most prolific scholar on Protheans (Liara) was almost totally wrong about them. And the odd thing is that the two items that she comes up with that may defeat the reapers (supposedly-Crucible plans and the nature of the Catalyst) have been in almost plain sight for years, but no one (not even Liara) thought they might be relevant. They could just have been planted, who knows?

What seems certain is that Harbinger and the reapers thought Shepard had a chance at defeating them. Javik says the strength of this cycle is that everyone was united-different from how they approached the threat. Another part is that people are more diverse. The Protheans in effect sought to assimilate other cultures, removing diversity (kind of already like the reapers), whereas all races in the current cycle were prompted to use their areas of strength and expertise.

I think Harbinger saw the threat and decided to try a new strategy; appeal to Shepard's vulnerability, Shepard's humanity. And Harbinger hit upon this as the new solution and needed Shepard to make it happen-so the choices could all mean Shepard was just doing what Harbinger wanted. But Harbinger is only giving the illusion of real choice.

The thing is, most of us can come up with any number of reasons for not trusting the star kid and not wanting to make any choice. The only reason I can come up with as it has been presented, for making a choice is because free will has been removed from Shepard. It just means if the kid could be lying or could be evil, unless Shepard's free will is gone, there's no way s/he would make any choice.

[Christianswe]

Some good links for you. You maybe have seen them already, but it´s a reminder of what many people out there feel about the subject of the ending. It will never really blow over or die down.
I hope the ending DLC will make the ending better, but it´s a hard ending to fix. Without changing it all over. I really hope that you listen to fan feedback right now. Crushed dreams and sad fans, is not good for buisness.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M0Cf864P7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft4bF6buEZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...


The Catalyst said: "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities." so the Crucible created the new possibilities, not the Catalyst.

But I agree, Shepard did reject control over others in the game, but this is not about to take free will away from EDI, the Geth or someone else, it is about stopping the Reapers from killing everyone.        

But you only have the star kid's word that this is true.  That is not proof.  Everything is based on what the star kid says and that is not proof.  You even said he could be lying.  You risk a whole galaxy on this kid's word (and he certainly isn't a kid at all, though we don't know what he is) and that's a risk no one would take unless forced to.

Shepard rejected control over other things because the person trying to control things was often changed by wanting to assert control.  Ever heard the term power mad or power hungry?  And this is all about the reapers I agree.  It's way too risky to trust that what has happened before to other people will not happen now.

Think about it for a minute.  The Citadel is the kid's home.  It was moved closer to Earth to make harvesting easier.  The kid lives inside a place full of people's bodies, not flowers, but dead people.

Yes, the kid said the Crucible opened up new possibilities and changed him, but how do you know that means it made him want to do good things?  You don't.  Shepard doesn't.  Maybe, in fact the Crucible allows him to harvest people faster.  How would Shepard know it doesn't?

Harvesting, it has been said takes maybe 100 years.  Maybe they no longer liked it taking so long.  Maybe they worried that an extended battle might diminish them or cause reaper deaths.

You cannot go by what the kid says, because he doesn't offer proof.  The kid can say anything, but he is not credible.

He offered TIM control, must have told him he could control the reapers.  TIM thought he could, but he had been indoctrinated.  He offered Saren control, Sovereign let Saren believe he could control the reapers, but he'd been indoctrinated.  I wasn't talking about controlling the geth or EDI.  I was talking about this kind of specific control-controlling the reapers.  Shepard saw that it changed people.  Saren enlisted Benezia's help to control the reapers, but Benezia (not the most evil being ever-Aethyta and Liara talked about the decent person she was) had been indoctrinated.

And again, Control is not a paragon choice.  Saving the Collector's base is a renegade choice and lowers the minimum EMS needed to get Control as an option.  Destroying the base is a paragon choice and lowers the minimum EMS needed to get Destroy as an option.  But all of this is of little matter-I don't see either of these choices as making any sense to any Shepard, no matter what.  Nor does Synthesis.

[LiarasShield]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Liarashield,
You've been saying it just about longer than anyone else. Shepard shouldn't just believe the star kid. He's been doing evil things. He's been carrying out his "solution" which is to kill advanced organics and as an advanced organic, Shepard shouldn't just believe him. He says the Crucible changed him, but we only have his word on it and he has been doing evil things so he is not trustworthy. The fact that his original solution that he decided upon involved sending reapers to make people paste calls into question his "sanity".

But the kid's motives don't matter. He could actually think he is doing things for a good cause. If I were a reaper that would be ok, but as a human being (when he's been making human being goo), I couldn't help but see him as evil. He had the "off" switch but kept killing people.

To me, there's no gray area. Shepard is a person and s/he doesn't like the reapers for killing other people. The kid owns the reapers and is in charge of the killing. It's cut and dry. The kid is the evil, even more than the reapers, because he's been in control. They have had to do what he made them do. If the kid looked like Harbinger or Sovereign or Saren or TIM, Shepard would not listen to him. But Shepard isn't stupid either and would have to think this image of a kid was a new tactic.

When Shepard defeated the Collectors or at the end of The Arrival (I cannot remember which but I am pretty sure it was the Collector base), Harbinger said they would find a new solution. Sound familiar? In fact, it seems very likely that the star kid is Harbinger, the oldest reaper. He and Sovereign constantly echoed things the kid says later. They are of one mind or have one singular thought. And it has never been for the good of all organics.

Their real purpose is as murky as can be, but it's very obvious to me that this at least is true; if the reapers did nor harvest organic life, they would die. So my belief is that they are using subterfuge to mislead Shepard at the end. Harbinger kept trying to achieve their end goal of sucking up organic life that they need to exist. He kept hitting Shepard over the head with a hammer, but Shepard kept coming back. The Crucible is ambiguous at best-the most prolific scholar on Protheans (Liara) was almost totally wrong about them. And the odd thing is that the two items that she comes up with that may defeat the reapers (supposedly-Crucible plans and the nature of the Catalyst) have been in almost plain sight for years, but no one (not even Liara) thought they might be relevant. They could just have been planted, who knows?

What seems certain is that Harbinger and the reapers thought Shepard had a chance at defeating them. Javik says the strength of this cycle is that everyone was united-different from how they approached the threat. Another part is that people are more diverse. The Protheans in effect sought to assimilate other cultures, removing diversity (kind of already like the reapers), whereas all races in the current cycle were prompted to use their areas of strength and expertise.

I think Harbinger saw the threat and decided to try a new strategy; appeal to Shepard's vulnerability, Shepard's humanity. And Harbinger hit upon this as the new solution and needed Shepard to make it happen-so the choices could all mean Shepard was just doing what Harbinger wanted. But Harbinger is only giving the illusion of real choice.

The thing is, most of us can come up with any number of reasons for not trusting the star kid and not wanting to make any choice. The only reason I can come up with as it has been presented, for making a choice is because free will has been removed from Shepard. It just means if the kid could be lying or could be evil, unless Shepard's free will is gone, there's no way s/he would make any choice.

Agree with you so much and it also brings into what harbinger said to shepard in mass effect 2 We will find another way perhaps the catalyst is really harbinger using the image of a child to make shepard submit to him it could also explain why harbinger just flew away or let shepard supposedly go to the only place that will destroy them if harbinger already knew it was a trap set up for shepard

So either the catalyst is the evil monster who created the reapers who have been destroying the galaxy millions of times over and is forcing shepard into the choices that will ultimately save the reapers or

It is harbinger using the image of a child to subdue shepard into making the choices that will help the reapers or cleanse organic life of the galaxy with them being trapt in our damamged solar system

Aheading to Harbingers words of We will find another way

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And there's a different reason to trust the Rachni Queen. Each time she had been held against her will. She had clearly stated her hatred for the reapers and gave reasons why AND Shepard asked. It is easy to believe someone hates the person that took their children and turned them into reaper creatures. Of course I would believe her-and she also didn't go back on her word or the Rachni didn't. They were taken and changed and forced to go and kill. So, yes I trusted her and I also needed her and figured she could be useful. Lastly, I took pity on her because she was hurt.

" She had clearly stated...." Yes, she did. And that's it. There is no proof whatsoever. Thus basically you (we) trusted the old enemy of the Galaxy on her word, and made a decision that, if it go wrong, would cost millions and millions of lives.   
Imho there is more reason (or proof) to trust the Catalyst that he had changed, than to trust the Rachni queen.   

Last I checked the Rachni Queen that was left was the last one left (with an ability to make more sure), but she's not a reaper and isn't blackening the sky with her presence.  She has limited albeit real ability to threaten, but to compare the two is like comparing a mosquito to a nuclear missile.  They both can draw blood and do damage, but one can be killed destroyed fairly easily, the other not so much.  There's way more reason to trust the Rachni that the Catalyst, er reaper kid.  The Rachni are actually very similar to the Krogan in what happened to them.  They had been bred by the Protheans to become more aggressive and to be fighting machines.  The Rachni discovered space travel and were for a time off on their own, until Salarians came upon them by opening up and using a mass relay.  Maybe had they been left alone, the Rachni Wars never would have taken place.  However, it did, but when Sovereign came, he imprisoned the Queen and created Rachni reaper creatures, effectively killing them.  And then in ME3 it had happened again and so it's pretty obvious the Queen would have just as much reason to hate the reapers as anyone else.  Even so, you don't have to save her.  You could kill her if you don't trust her.  You don't have that option with the star kid and he has been killing billions of people for no good reason.

The proof you have with the Rachni Queen is all that happened previously.  It isn't only her word-it's the reaper slaughter of her children and her pain is just as real as any human mother's pain.  You have proof to back up what she says.  In ME2, the Rachni didn't come out and fight anyone.  They did stay away as promised and they sent that Asari to tell you they were keeping that promise.  The Rachni also helped the Asari who had crash landed.  There is proof.

What actual proof do you have of what the kid says?  Proof that backs up what he says.  And you can't use what he says as proof, because it isn't.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 04:31 .

[3DandBeyond]

LiarasShield wrote...

Agree with you so much and it also brings into what harbinger said to shepard in mass effect 2 We will find another way perhaps the catalyst is really harbinger using the image of a child to make shepard submit to him it could also explain why harbinger just flew away or let shepard supposedly go to the only place that will destroy them if harbinger already knew it was a trap set up for shepard

So either the catalyst is the evil monster who created the reapers who have been destroying the galaxy millions of times over and is forcing shepard into the choices that will ultimately save the reapers or

It is harbinger using the image of a child to subdue shepard into making the choices that will help the reapers or cleanse organic life of the galaxy with them being trapt in our damamged solar system

Aheading to Harbingers words of We will find another way

I think what could have happened is that harvesting became more difficult for them this cycle.  First of all the people of the galaxy had come together as never before.  Secondly, the mass relays were still operational.  It is clearly stated that the reapers use FTL drives within a galaxy after arrival and the first thing they do for any cycle is to shut down or control the relays, stranding all people so that harvesting is easier.  This did not happen probably because of the tampering the Protheans did with the keepers and the Citadel relay.  They don't seem to control the relays.

But, after Shepard makes a choice, what happens?  The relays are destroyed and that strands all people.  But forget about the fact we are shown that that happens.  The kid tells Shepard it will happen, but Shepard has been told (I'm thinking it was Vigil that said this, but will try to find it) the reapers shut the relays down to strand people.  Why wouldn't Shepard wonder about this?  The kid could be lying and the reapers may not be destroyed, controlled, or absorbed in synthesis and Shepard has shut down the relays and stranded everybody.

The Citadel is happily harvesting people (for all Shepard knows) after a choice is made and having it near Earth where all the fleets are stranded is convenient.  There's a lot of people to harvest there.

I will again state that I think the kid is lying about the real purpose of the harvesting.  Between 50k cycles, the reapers are essentially hibernating out beyond the galaxy in hiding.  They act like a bear in a cave.  When the cycle begins they awaken and come out to "feed" and I don't mean eating like we think of it.  They need advanced organics for various reasons.  In a real way it may be that they can't assimilate lesser organic species-they need the brains and all.  It's also been said that this is related to their reproductive cycle, again very much like many animals that hibernate.  Animals may hibernate during gestation.  I don't think the real purpose of harvesting was anything relating to the circular logic, again that's just the star kid's attempt to get Shepard's help or to create absolute mind-numbing confusion.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[LiarasShield]

3DandBeyond wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Agree with you so much and it also brings into what harbinger said to shepard in mass effect 2 We will find another way perhaps the catalyst is really harbinger using the image of a child to make shepard submit to him it could also explain why harbinger just flew away or let shepard supposedly go to the only place that will destroy them if harbinger already knew it was a trap set up for shepard

So either the catalyst is the evil monster who created the reapers who have been destroying the galaxy millions of times over and is forcing shepard into the choices that will ultimately save the reapers or

It is harbinger using the image of a child to subdue shepard into making the choices that will help the reapers or cleanse organic life of the galaxy with them being trapt in our damamged solar system

Aheading to Harbingers words of We will find another way

I think what could have happened is that harvesting became more difficult for them this cycle.  First of all the people of the galaxy had come together as never before.  Secondly, the mass relays were still operational.  It is clearly stated that the reapers use FTL drives within a galaxy after arrival and the first thing they do for any cycle is to shut down or control the relays, stranding all people so that harvesting is easier.  This did not happen probably because of the tampering the Protheans did with the keepers and the Citadel relay.  They don't seem to control the relays.

But, after Shepard makes a choice, what happens?  The relays are destroyed and that strands all people.  But forget about the fact we are shown that that happens.  The kid tells Shepard it will happen, but Shepard has been told (I'm thinking it was Vigil that said this, but will try to find it) the reapers shut the relays down to strand people.  Why wouldn't Shepard wonder about this?  The kid could be lying and the reapers may not be destroyed, controlled, or absorbed in synthesis and Shepard has shut down the relays and stranded everybody.

The Citadel is happily harvesting people (for all Shepard knows) after a choice is made and having it near Earth where all the fleets are stranded is convenient.  There's a lot of people to harvest there.

I will again state that I think the kid is lying about the real purpose of the harvesting.  Between 50k cycles, the reapers are essentially hibernating out beyond the galaxy in hiding.  They act like a bear in a cave.  When the cycle begins they awaken and come out to "feed" and I don't mean eating like we think of it.  They need advanced organics for various reasons.  In a real way it may be that they can't assimilate lesser organic species-they need the brains and all.  It's also been said that this is related to their reproductive cycle, again very much like many animals that hibernate.  Animals may hibernate during gestation.  I don't think the real purpose of harvesting was anything relating to the circular logic, again that's just the star kid's attempt to get Shepard's help or to create absolute mind-numbing confusion.

Exactly if the reapers turn off the mass relays to harvest the other races don't you think that the relays being destroyed would only aid them in this process and as it stands in all endings it feels like the reapers win and we don't in any of em

Modifié par LiarasShield, 30 mai 2012 - 05:07 .

[3DandBeyond]

Best info ever-Synthetics don't have DNA (Marauder Shields confirms it), so hmmm, let's revisit Synthesis.