23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

@Holger,
That "quote me" post would take me a month to fulfill. Please, you know I am not going to search through 800 pages to find one discussion you and I had. I clearly also remember one user asking us to please not have such lengthy discussions. I do not have a photographic memory, but I have an extremely good one.

We discussed the destroy option because I stated there was no option that a Paragon Shepard would make. I stated that I only chose destroy because that was always the goal, but I found it unthinkable especially for a paragon Shepard. Your reply was that a paragon could choose it depending upon what they did with the geth or if they had just been using the geth to help their EMS and not because they cared about them. I stated this was not a paragon way to act.

We had a whole discussion over what paragon meant and I said you did not fully understand it, to which you replied you did. I stated that a paragon thought over things and did not do things merely for expediency. I stated that a paragon cared about these people including the geth and including EDI and would not just kill them to achieve something. Hence, the whole problem with the ending-that Shepard does not protest the stupidity of any choice and the fact the kid is not to be trusted.  It isn't terribly important, but I'm just saying there's no good choice to make at all.

I remember the discussion fully, but I do not expect you to remember it.

Now onto your current assessment that Control is some sort of Paragon (full Paragon) option. Well, no way. First of all, in and of itself, forgetting paragon/renegade, it makes no bloody sense. Shepard is shown to die instantly and yet somehow has taken control of the reapers. Ok, space magic times half infinity (for space magic times infinity one needs to choose synthesis).

Now, onto your idea that Control is Paragon. Again, anyone that has been told by any reaper-like entity that they can control the reapers has been indoctrinated, crazy, evil, or all of the above. So, maybe a paragon could choose it-a deluded one who all of a sudden wanted to be a dead god.

Controlling something gives one great power that is not handled easily even with the best intentions. It is also the desire of those that wish to become gods and not those that wish to stop something. It is the easy way out though and as such is definitely the realm of a renegade who only thinks of expediency and not of consequences. In order to see this you only need to look at TIM who was a full blown renegade character. He wasn't always so "evil" and in fact had been more altruistic in his beliefs at least where humans are concerned. And even in wanting to control them, he still was thinking he was doing a good thing-controlling them to learn and then help humanity achieve greatness. His idea of the worm turning-the downtrodden rising up.

In fact, all of the choices are better suited to a renegade but even there the game fails.

A renegade Shepard still cares about someone. A renegade Shepard has still sacrificed a lot in order to save people s/he doesn't even know and will never know and that mostly have not been invested in saving themselves. I further think there is no true full renegade Shepard because it's an impossibility-that Shepard would figure that there is no fast and true method to save all these ungrateful people and might think to take off in the Normandy for some other hidden spot and live until found. Well, there's problems with that, but you get the idea. A renegade Shepard wouldn't do all these things.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 juin 2012 - 01:01 .

[big mass effect fan]

Let us fight Harbinger! Whether it be in real life or a reveal of the indoctrination theory followed by a fight inside Shepard's mind (or the former following the latter), we need to actually fight the reapers and not just flip an off switch.

[big mass effect fan]

[deleted dupliacte post]

Modifié par big mass effect fan, 04 juin 2012 - 02:27 .

[3DandBeyond]

This is the thing. People talked about paragon and renegade being balanced, but I think it's wrong that they are so in this sense...

The decisions don't change the endings much if in some cases at all, and along the way some things should just matter.

For instance, in ME2 if you hesitate before getting to the collector's base and do not go there directly once you can, more of your crewmates in pods will die-Gabby, Kelly, and maybe more-these 2 for certain. And Dr. Chakwas will be mad at first. Also, if you hesitate or take too long in killing husks and such along the way in the biotic bubble mission in the collector's base someone can die.

I think that there should be right moments to make paragon (more thoughtful) decisions and renegade (must act now) decisions. But they must have bigger effects. As it is now, there's a give and take-lose some Krogans, gain some Salarians. Lose the geth, gain more quarians. Don't get the brain, you get the reaper heart. They watered down so much.

The thing about the Collector's base really gets me-that is the final act in ME2, really.  A decision of great meaning that means nothing but a few points.  I just think it should have had a real impact.  In fact, I think it's so stupid that TIM holds up a tablet in ME3 that shows he has the same info that Shepard obtained before destroying the base and we never see that Shepard did anything with it.  And if you save the base it really does not give TIM an edge-what it does is lowers the minimum EMS needed for Control. 

Also, I never noticed EDI ever decoding the intel I kept from TIM in ME2 either.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[Pheonix57]

Okay, so before I believe you, I have to ask: When you say, "Yes we are listening" is it the same as when you told us that we would "have more choices than just A, B, and C" and that the game would "not be resolved by uncovering some long-lost Reaper “off” button"?
Because if it is the same, then I call bull****.

[Redbelle]

karmattack wrote...

You know what really highlighted the strange handling of Paragon/Renegade in ME3 for me? The ending of the Batarian Codes side mission. I played that mission pretty much full-Paragon**. After handling the pissed off Batarian with my super Paragon negotiating, and I was in dialogue with Agent I-Forget-Her-Name, the Paragon dialogue response to her asking if I was alright made Shepard say something like, "Yeah, well I wish you would just go over there and shoot him in the head, but we can't always get what we want."

Wait, WHAAAAAAT?!

**On my first playthrough of a Mass Effect game, I try to set aside the notion that full-Paragon or Renegade are going to net me the "best" outcomes and just play from the gut, in the moment. The Paragon/Renegade weakness of ME3 shows up here too. The first time I played ME2, I found myself going with a lot of the "meh," benign dialogue choices and those are sometimes hugely satisfying to me. I'm obviously not the first to point it out, and it was mentioned like 2 posts ago, but there are almost NO dialogue variances in ME3 beyond up-Good, down-Bad. That drove me nuts. PLUS, playing mixed and from the gut like this STILL rewarded me with the Synthesis ending, which is essentially in game-reward terms, the "best" ending and yet again I'm left with nothing to improve, and no reason to replay the game. That is, unless I want to hear Shepard say totally insane Renegade stuff when I make Paragon dialogue choices again...

Maybe your Shep was responding to the personel history he had. Did you go with the Skylian Blitz?

[linsanity]

No Bioware you arnt listening.

We're telling you that the endings are beyond explaination, they are that garbage.
We did not say the endings are fine and need more to explain the questions we have.

[3DandBeyond]

linsanity wrote...

No Bioware you arnt listening.

We're telling you that the endings are beyond explaination, they are that garbage.
We did not say the endings are fine and need more to explain the questions we have.

You are correct because you cannot explain inanity and the only question we'd like explained is this: how on earth could you have come up with this?  Or, you thought this was good?

This game featured some of the most memorable lines and moments, everything from Mordin's renditions of Gilbert and Sullivan to Shepard on Tuchanka, "There's a reaper in my way, Wrex," to EDI saying when her hair is wet, she can't do a thing with it.

In line with all that we are supposed to believe that this is special as well-the created will always rebel against the creator thus destroying the creator so I send the reapers to destroy you to keep you from being destroyed.

Ok, the only rebelling against creators that ever takes place in the game is done in response to creators that try to kill their creations.

And as someone pointed out, the kid who has been sending reapers to turn people into goo, now says he wants to help Shepard.  In effect saying, "I'm here to save you from me."  Some other poster correctly distilled the message of the star kid down to this.

So, along with every other memorable thought and quote within 3 games the last 2 that are the most memorable are these:
I send reapers to destroy you so you won't be destroyed.
I am here to save you from me.

No, I don't want these explained.  They don't need to be explained because they can't be explained.  And if I ever start wanting to understand them then I need serious help. 

[Archonsg]

Or pretend to understand because you'd be cool, artsy and an intellectual. Right!
? Right? :-P

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

Or pretend to understand because you'd be cool, artsy and an intellectual. Right!
? Right? :-P

Well, that is generally the effect some art promoters work to achieve.  They claim something is art and defy anyone to say it isn't.  No one wants to look foolish, so they all agree.  Then they find out the "art" was created when paint spilled onto a canvas lying on the floor or by a dog's tail that inadvertantly dipped in some paint.

That's part of what is wrong with self-promotion.  Anything that someone needs to tell you is art, isn't.  And, anything that is self-described either directly or through implication as intellectual, isn't.  And even if it is smart and artistic, that does not mean the product's consumer (buyer) wants it.  Much what is defined at some point as art has only been seen as art after the artist's death-most artists go through an awful lot of lean years on the way to others appreciating their works.  And most never achieve recognition or sell their works.  So, Bioware might want to rethink that whole "artistic integrity" thing.

[linsanity]

3DandBeyond wrote...

linsanity wrote...

No Bioware you arnt listening.

We're telling you that the endings are beyond explaination, they are that garbage.
We did not say the endings are fine and need more to explain the questions we have.

.....
I don't want these explained.  They don't need to be explained because they can't be explained.  And if I ever start wanting to understand them then I need serious help. 

Thanks for the agree

[Redbelle]

A while back the news reported that an artist had created a new work that comprised of a step ladder, some dust sheets, a used ash tray and coke can's and paint brushes and pots.

When the gallery closed and ppl were going home, the janitor came by and, thinking some work men had forgotten to tidy up, disposed of the trash, cleaned the brushes and wondered where the extra ladder had come from.

Maybe if they had roped it in............

[sdinc009]

Watched all 5 parts of this analysis and though I don't share all of his opinions the literary analyis is extremely top-notch. I would urge everyone to watch all 5 parts of this.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

[Mercedes595]

3DandBeyond wrote...

This game featured some of the most memorable lines and moments, everything from Mordin's renditions of Gilbert and Sullivan to Shepard on Tuchanka, "There's a reaper in my way, Wrex," to EDI saying when her hair is wet, she can't do a thing with it.

Couldn't agree more. Some of the writing in ME3 and indeed in the whole series was fantastic beyond wild dreams of ..... well anyone.

3DandBeyond wrote...

In line with all that we are supposed to believe that this is special as well-the created will always rebel against the creator thus destroying the creator so I send the reapers to destroy you to keep you from being destroyed.

I know this might sound as nitpicking, but the line went a bit diferently. The StarMagicGizmoChild said that the reapers come to harvest all advanced civilizations so that the less advanced organic life may be preseved, as opposed to the possibility of all organic life being wiped out by AIs. I know, not the most believable of reasons, but if you accept the premise that eventually every AI will turn against its creator, then i can see the logic in that. Barely.

3DandBeyond wrote...

And as someone pointed out, the kid who has been sending reapers to turn people into goo, now says he wants to help Shepard.  In effect saying, "I'm here to save you from me."  Some other poster correctly distilled the message of the star kid down to this.

So, along with every other memorable thought and quote within 3 games the last 2 that are the most memorable are these:
I send reapers to destroy you so you won't be destroyed.
I am here to save you from me.

Well if i remember correctly, he (the Catalyst) was the creator of the reapers, yet he did not have total controll over them or any direct communication with them. As seen in him not helping them open the Citadel mass relay in ME1 and also in him not being able to do anything to help them or counter them in the end of ME3. The reapers are an autonomous race created to solve the problem of possible wiping out of organic life in the galaxy .... (same as above). So I dont think the StarMagicGizmoChild is sending anything anywhere.
As to the "I am here to save you from me" thing..... well the Catalyst is not there to save anyone either, it is there to explain and the Crucible (which your allies built) is there to save you. Dont ask me, why all the advanced races before you who made the designs did not build it with little less extreme controls, ei. three simple buttons, as opposed to an exploding container (destroy), a hole full of light (synthesis) and a tesla coil (control).

3DandBeyond wrote...

No, I don't want these explained.  They don't need to be explained because they can't be explained.  And if I ever start wanting to understand them then I need serious help. 

So to wrap it up, If they thoroughly rework at least parts of the ending (delete Joker flying off + crash, explained the reasons behind and the aftereffects of the destruction of the relays, ... etc.) and added Geth to the animations of the fleet coming to earth + perheps added the geth units into the battles on the surface (as I said in my previous post some time ago, which nobody sadly reacted to) I would not mind the new ending that much. If i loved it or not would depend on wheter our choices from previous games or even from ME3 itself (again the Geth) would effect the endings. 
Sorry for the lenghty response and sorry for the spelling. 

[Benchpress610]

Redbelle wrote...

A while back the news reported that an artist had created a new work that comprised of a step ladder, some dust sheets, a used ash tray and coke can's and paint brushes and pots.

When the gallery closed and ppl were going home, the janitor came by and, thinking some work men had forgotten to tidy up, disposed of the trash, cleaned the brushes and wondered where the extra ladder had come from.

Maybe if they had roped it in............

ROFLMAO…oh man, I laughed so hard that I still have stomach cramps.
 
So true…art is in the eye of the beholder, but there are certain “works of art” that I wonder who can find them artistic. There are fancy art galleries in Manhattan showing crap that my five year old nephew would do a better job at. Any nincompoop can throw a bucket of paint at a canvas and then say it is “art”. Then, don’t dare to dismiss him as a quack because you’ll be labeled as a dumb @ss who don’t understand his “artistic vision”  

[MSandt]

Finished the game a few days ago and replayed the final three hours or so yesterday (after having boosted my readiness rating to 100% in multiplayer).

The ending was the best in video game history. This was Shepard's story and dwelling on what happened to everyone else would've been beside the point and totally unnecessary. A long happy ending à la LotR would have been corny.

As for lack of control - what did you expect? That having saved some insect at one point should have had an effect on your choices at such a galaxy-wide moment? That'd been silly.

It'd be a huge mistake if Bioware did anything to change the ending.

[akenn312]

sdinc009 wrote...

Watched all 5 parts of this analysis and though I don't share all of his opinions the literary analyis is extremely top-notch. I would urge everyone to watch all 5 parts of this.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

I watched these last night and all I could say is wow, they really did not think this story out at all. It blows me away how many things from the previous games they just missed an ignored. I mean Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 almost have no purpose because of this new game. This game literally throws everything you have done out the window. There are so many things wrong it's almost impossible to even talk about them in one post. Actually I agree with most of his points. I only thought it was the ending but now…whew.

Why don't they just use the conduit on Ilos? At least you know what that conduit does and where it will take you. No one knows anything about where the London conduit will take you after you get into the Citadel. Could be a control panel could be a processing vat, eh let's just have faith. Good plan Anderson.

Why don't the Reapers just go for the Citadel in the first place? What's all this planet by planet nonsense giving your enemy time to build a way to defeat you? They only finally go to the Citadel because TIM tells them? So agian what the fack was Sovregien doing in ME if the Citadel was not nessesary to thier plan? Great strategy Reapers.

Why does Cortez not tell us a Cain heavy weapon will destroy a spider Reaper on Rannoch? Then we don't have to go through all that targeting laser crap. Why isn't Cortez getting as many Cain's or targeting lasers for your armory if that's the only way we can kill a Spider Reaper? Why if one Cain can destroy a Spider Reaper are we still wasting time firing regular weapons and Thanix Missiles or even wasting time with Targeting lasers? What the heck is a Thanix missile anyway? Why hasn't Shepard informed anyone how to kill Reapers? Cain's or targeting Lasers connected to the Fleets only do it.….Sorry those Grenade Launchers and those Biotic blasts aren't going to do it. Good going Shep and Cortez.

No one knows what the Crucible does but they are totally convinced they can't win without using it. How do they know this if it's never been finished? Also they have the best scientific minds in the galaxy working on it and no one can figure out the huge retractable arms might fit on the Citadel. You know that thing the Reapers were always trying desperately to get to in the first game. Strong work Scientists and Liara.

And my favorite, so the main problem is organics will produce a mega synthetic AI that will destroy them all, even though not one synthetic AI has been a major threat or has there been an AI that was never easily defeated. So how again are synthetics going to destroy us all? The Citadel AI was trying a ponzi scheme and became a small bomb no major threat there, EDI was easily defeated, reprogrammed and eventually fights for you. Eva was easily defeated you took her out with a Predator pistol, the Geth were isolationists that finally made peace sure they were tough but not really a threat to rule the galaxy or destroy us all. So again where is the synthetic threat the Reapers keep talking to us about? Great job Catalyst.

All of it starts to unravel after you actually think about it. But we are the reason this all doesn't make sense. Yeah it's all on the fans, we're just asking way too much out of them.

Modifié par akenn312, 04 juin 2012 - 05:07 .

[Kallikanzarid]

Mordin's death was a deeply touching moment. The ending was god-awful BTW, please wipe eveything starting from Shepard taking a shot on Earth from the continuity, the plain and simple happy ending and Fallout style epilogue is all I'm asking for. Come on, please...

[Halie Star]

Dunfalach wrote...

I kow this thread is already miles long, but I'll add my comment in.

The Mass Effect series is probably my favorite series since the old Wing Commander games. ME3 is one of a handful of games I've ever pre-ordered (well, had pre-ordered for me at my request as a birthday present). And I very much enjoyed it overall up until the Star Child. I thought Mordin on Tuchanka, the varying options in the Quarian-Geth conflict, the many little side stories on Citadel as well as the depth of the number of encounters that were changed by little decisions when comparing a from-scratch run to an import run were excellent. I made repeated loops through the hospital on Citadel to hear the PTSD Asari's story, to see how the Marine who was going to lose a leg would fair, and even to ask Dr. Michel about the changing status of the hospital. Pretty much anywhere there was an environmental conversation on Normandy or Citadel, I'd loop by to hear it till it finished/repeated because I loved the extra life it breathed into the universe.

If I were only allowed to make one change to the endings, just a single change allowed, I'd remove the "all other synthetic life" clause from the destroy option. If choosing destroy only destroyed the Reapers, then I could say there was one choice that made Shepard the good guy, completing the mission he began with. But exterminating a race my Paragon Shep just helped achieve full sentience...that just doesn't seem like a choice a paragon should make. Nor do either of the others. Completely rewriting the entire universe into machine hybrids without their permission? Not very paragon at all. Attempting to control the Reapers after we just spent hours chastising TIM and killing off all his minions for the same plan? Also not very paragon. Unfortunately, I just dismissed all the options as not paragon for Shepard to do, and there are no options left. That's where my disappointment hit. I couldn't justify my Shepard doing any of those things as a paragon. I finally had to choose one just to get through to the end, but I wasn't pleased with it.

My Shepard's just finished disproving the entire basis of the Star Child's view of the universe, by bringing together groups that have fought for centuries, including the Quarians and Geth. My fleet has every known sentient race in the universe, including Rachni, all united under my leadership. The greatest foundation for argument against the Catalyst's assumptions in dozens of cycles is right there, and I have no option to show him this.

     What you said. I felt the same way. It's like everything just spun out of control. My Shep's mind set was totally different from the fiasco of spinning out of control, couldn't choose the answers I wanted to, cause they weren't there to choose. I am so depressed.
     There has got to be a happy ending. Without a happy ending it wouldn't make any sense to me to buy any DLC, for what? Another explanation of my femshep dying? No can't accept that. I wanted to shoot the kid in the face to destroy him, and fast forward a happy ending. Give back our control of what was one of my favorite games.

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

Watched all 5 parts of this analysis and though I don't share all of his opinions the literary analyis is extremely top-notch. I would urge everyone to watch all 5 parts of this.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

I am almost through with the first and he does point out something that always bothered me.  It's a big deal that Earth was attacked, but when Shepard goes looking for help, it's almost like, "oh yeah Palaven was attacked too." Or Tuchanka or whatever.  It so minimizes (even though they act sometimes like they care) what is going on elsewhere as if Earth was the only place attacked.

[Kallikanzarid]

I think my biggest problem with the endings is that everything I loved was destroyed. Yes, on paper we saved all life in the galaxy, but I don't care, because I never saw all life in the galaxy. I only cared about what I saw over the course of the games: several races living together in the world, communicating through mass relays, and my team, always there for me. In both endings everything I loved about the setting was lost, and my team ended up stranded on an uninhabitated planet, where they were forced to interbreed in order to repopulate, left without any technology or hope of rescue.

Isn't it a bummer, knowing that all you loved is gone and you couldn't stop it?

I understand, you have your artistic vision, and the standard way space operas are written is very restrictive, I agree. But it works, it leaves the audience with a sense of joy and desire to learn more about what happened after that, or before that. But after ME3 I felt a bit empty inside. After five years I was invested in the franchise, but now I don't know, I feel cheated. I couldn't save what I loved, I failed because some Star Child wannabe made me choose from two diabolically bad options and didn't even explain why. And now I have to live with that, and now *you* have to live with that, Bioware.

Modifié par Kallikanzarid, 04 juin 2012 - 04:33 .

[3DandBeyond]

MSandt wrote...

Finished the game a few days ago and replayed the final three hours or so yesterday (after having boosted my readiness rating to 100% in multiplayer).

The ending was the best in video game history. This was Shepard's story and dwelling on what happened to everyone else would've been beside the point and totally unnecessary. A long happy ending à la LotR would have been corny.

As for lack of control - what did you expect? That having saved some insect at one point should have had an effect on your choices at such a galaxy-wide moment? That'd been silly.

It'd be a huge mistake if Bioware did anything to change the ending.

I don't mean to insult you and you are welcome to your opinions of course, but..

I'm sorry what games were you playing exactly?  Lack of control-that is exactly where in the rest of the games and where is that stated in all the press the devs put out leading up to this game?  You know, where they said it was all about player choice (control), vast differences in endings, no ABC endings, no requirement to play MP for SP, and so on.

Or maybe you mean they didn't mean it when they said the Rachni would figure prominently in the ending.

A happy ending would be corny?  But Joker and all the others landing on the jungle planet is thoughty and deep?  Or how about the charred gasping Shepard torso-that is not corny at all?

And you really think the ending was Shepard's story (you know we saw everything previously from Shepard's point of view)?  What Shepard exactly throughout these 3 games would ever have stood idly by while some demented, evil god being in kid's clothing that has been turning people into goo, says that turning people into goo is done to help them?  Exactly which Shepard would when told that turning them into goo is done so they can ascend in a different form, would just casually say oh, please mr. star kid, we want to keep our current form?  Feck that, what Shepard wouldn't have a few very choice words to say at least?

Oh, and I'm sorry but exactly what games were you playing if in the end all those people Shepard cared about, oh even a love interest, are meaningless and unnecessary?  The games have always been about those relationships Shepard forged, so now they don't matter?  The ME series set itself apart in that the player as Shepard could direct all those relationships and could choose to care or not.  So, now they don't matter?  I'm stumped.  I've played 3 different games-one where Liara basically gave up part of her life for love or just friendship, to find the dead body of Shepard and then further gave up that body to Cerberus in the hope Shepard might live again.

I played games where Mordin became real and overcame (could overcome) flaws in his previous thinking and came to care for Krogan and lived to change the bad thing he had helped happen.

I played games where my decisions at least had the artifice of importance and seemed to determine things.  But, ultimately where they lead is to a discussion of a character I never fought and never knew about who says things and offers choices that only some deluded individual with some design on godhood would believe.  And on top of that Shepard who apparently hasn't suffered or sacrificed enough for an ungrateful galaxy, must now always sacrifice it all so that ungrateful galaxy can continue on, blissful in the knowledge that at least one person cared enough.

And as if that's not enough, Shepard's LI and friends that also may have sacrificed a lot and learned a great deal from Shepard, can deal with futility on a large scale.  It's not bad enough that Shepard died once, but Shepard must die again and again apparently until they get it right. 

The ending is a compilation of nonsensical parts thrown together and called artistic and deep.  The fact that it makes use of many cliche pieces in ways that don't even fit together bears out that it is neither.

One of the main points is that the reapers have been the enemy, the antagonist and the emotional counter to Shepard as hero.  In a good story you don't replace either the good or the bad guy at the end and certainly not in the last few moments or pages of a story.  The game stops once Shepard is hit by Harbinger's beam.  The interaction with a dying Anderson is magnificently done, but it is the only bright spot in a dreary demented ending.  And even there the game fails.  Shepard doesn't even seem to care.  So, I want to know in what ME game does this make sense?