23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Benchpress610]

MSandt wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Mercedes595 wrote...

MSandt wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

And I don't call forced suicide a sacrifice or bittersweet at all. Point out the sweet please.

Howabout the fact that you succeeded in preventing a genocide of all advanced races, including your own? Oh, and the whole top-floor scene was just stunning audiovisually.

+1

Except that the astonishing visuals and stunning musical effects could not cover up the load of horse manure being spoken by glowboy.  

And how was it horse manure? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the origin of the Reapers was never established in either Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2 (unless you considered the "we're infinite" bit a satisfactory explanation). But it was known that they 1) were part machine, part organic and that 2) they destroyed advanced organic civilizations in an endless cycle. What remained to be explained was who created them and why. The "glowboy" didn't really even reveal anything we didn't alread know except his identity as the creator, which we knew existed out there somewhere the whole time.

That’s all well and good, except I don’t need to know the origins of the reapers. They are an unknowable evil that needs to be eradicated. They were the perfect antagonists until glowboy made them irrelevant.
 
Now the question is why what he said is a load or horse manure:

“In order to save you from being slaughter by synthetics, I made other synthetics to slaughter you before the ones you created do it. I’m sorry I have priority”  WTF?....why in hell if you want to save me don’t you kill the synthetics instead?[/list]I can never pass that one. No matter how you slice it, you’re never gonna convince me that is NOT a whole 50 ton truck loaded with horse crap. 
 
Control: “you will control the reapers, but you will die and lose everything you have”…tell me my friend, how exactly am I controlling the reapers when I’m DEAD???...more smelly stuff…[/list]
Synthesis: OK, is every living being in the galaxy part organic part synthetic? Not considering the fact that most races already have some sort of synthetic implants, how is this new DNA works? As far as I know machines don’t have DNA, how are they contributing to the melding? Another matter we need to consider:…the reapers must be part organic now. Does this mean they need to EAT to survive? If that’s the case they will become the most feared predator that ever lived. They would be a bigger threat than they ever were. Now instead of every 50K years, we’ll be contending with them every day… See where am I going with this? The whole thing is just an exercise in absurdity. [/list] 
Destruction: This is the only one that makes a little sense as I’ve been playing for three games to destroy the reapers. However there is one caveat, and I’m sure you have heard this one: you’ll destroy “all synthetic life, including the geth”. There is your bittersweet, you’ll destroy a whole race of sentient life you just help to bring into the galactic community. [/list] 
There are many more examples, but I want to mention one last thing: that device with the A, B, C choices, where did it come from? …it wasn’t part of the Crucible. I wasn’t part of the Citadel, unless glowboy had anticipated it and had ready. Obviously this is not the case as he himself says “the Crucible changed me”. This thing looks like a well engineered and put together construct. So how was it built? Literally glowboy had only minutes to “puff” make it appear. Unless he is just a magical being and Mass Effect, a hard SI-FI game, all of the sudden, with no prior warning became Alice in Wonderland, this is just another load of…well…you know….[/list] 
Sorry I went too long, I didn’t mean to…

Edit. Sorry, the formstting didn't come up as I expected.

Modifié par Benchpress610, 04 juin 2012 - 09:11 .

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

@3dandbeyond and @holger1405
Peace, take a deep breath now. Sorry I am late of this particular discussion but hear me out please.

In regards to the control option, I think both of you are correct, and wrong.


Lets just first agree that "Destroy" is as Renegade as you get. Geth, Allies? What Allies, ya sure they aren't really living things, blow them up. EDI, nah, she's just a sex toy that doesn't know it yet, then again maybe she does, given what Joker downloads off the net ... so blow her up too. Don't need no stinking synthetics as friends anyways."

And that "Synthesis" is just plain bat **** crazy.

Agreed on both points there.

Control though, I see both your POVs.
But because the ending does not take into account one of the big game mechanics in the game, the Paragon / Renegade decision tree (yet another reason why this ending IS BROKEN in relation to Mass Effect the series) you are left to interpretation as to what "control" would exactly do.

You see, I do agree with Holger that control is the only option that does not "Mass Genetically rape" every race out there or cause you to betray people who are dying, fighting for you as an ally.
I also happen to agree with 3D that control as an option is no long-term solution or even a solution ON ITS OWN.

Therein lies the problem.
A paragon WOULD take control of the reapers if he or she can be sure he or she actually takes control not just get elecro-fried to death to the background of manical laughing from the catalyst, that those three options were the only available ones, and THEN FLY EVERY SINGLE REAPER AND THE CITADEL INTO THE SUN. After making sure there are no survivors on the citadel of course.




But without that "fly into the sun" option, taking control for control's sake is not just Renegade, its bad in the evil sense, its stupid as again you have every indication that the Catalyst isn't telling you the entire truth. It's in control, thus it CAN stop everything, remove the Reapers from Battle, halt all reaper ground forces in fact, he can end it all right there, but he doesn't and he wants you to die. Again I cannot stress this enough, it tells you to go kill yourself and IS STILL KILLING PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE, IN SPACE AT THE TIME, and you (Shepard) thinks it's a good idea to do what it says? <_<

This is why it becomes clearly unacceptable to me-there's no
questioning of just how exactly this would work, but even if offered
some explanation I'd still say, "nah, you like to kill people too much. 
Don't trust you."

I think it's easy enough to want to believe that some innocent looking vid kid is there to help, but this is a ploy that is used so often that it's ridiculous anyone would believe it.  I want to ask, "who are you really and what do you look like?"  Because I know it is not a human boy.  Anyone ever read Cyrano De Bergerac?  One of the early tales of putting a pretty face on something so it is more acceptable.

Now as for Space Magic, there's space magic as in Biotics, and there's Space Magic as in "Ignore actual physics of how much force it requires to compromise a superstructure like that of a Mass Relay" (please for gods sake DO THE MATH before saying "its a different explosion") which in EVERY scene has an explosion FIRST followed by bits and pieces of a Relay flying outwards from source of kinetic / momentum force. You don't have to be a physicist or even need a degree in advanced physics, just a little common sense and understanding that ;

1) you need xxx amount of kinetic/momentum force to break something apart
2) you need xxx amount of force to not just crack or dent an object but to cause catastrophic damage to an object
3) any less than xxx amount of force even from an explosion would not cause structure to fail

And yes, we are told to ignore that because explosions make for exciting viewing. Now THAT'S Space Magic

Two points in game that say the galaxy is screwed by mass relay destruction-The Arrival and codex-Desperate Measures.  Zero points anywhere else where something that is not made up says the galaxy will be just fine when relays are destroyed.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 juin 2012 - 09:31 .

[3DandBeyond]

Great post, Benchpress.

The one point that recently hit me goes hand in hand with what you say about the ABC choices. I want to know how the star kid knows all about them if the crucible created them and he had nothing to do with the crucible. Since he knows what they will do, he appears to have inside knowledge of the crucible and thus would not create or help create something that will destroy what he created unless his stupid garbage circular logic actually follows what the game shows and not what he says.

He says basically the created destroy the creator.
In the game we see the opposite, the creator destroying the created.
So, maybe the kid created or helped create the crucible because he could not destroy his creation, the reapers. He, the creator wants to destroy his created. And this makes just about as much sense as any of the other garbage within the ending.

You really have to put yourself there and think about what threshold you would cross to get to believe this junk.

[akenn312]

MSandt wrote...

Yes, as I said it's possible that there might appear another synthetic race that wipes out all life but that's a fact of life that advanced organic civilizations have to live with. In fact, it's a fact of life we too here in real life have to live with, that our technology turns against us. There's nothing Shepard could ever do to make it otherwise, except by denying all civilizations any chance of development. In fact, if you so choose, you can do just this by going for the control option.

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

Modifié par akenn312, 04 juin 2012 - 09:40 .

[Redbelle]

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@MSandt,
I have not put you down at all and you keep snipping the meaning out of what I say. I never said you had to pursue romantic relationships. You keep insisting I am talking about romance when I clearly stated I wasn't. But, fine have a conversation with yourself.

One cannot have a genuine conversation if you continually do this.

Shepard shoots Anderson and there is no expression of angst over what just happened. None.

He reasonably argued his position and he didn't once snipe at you or
insult you. I am thinking maybe you need to ether get thicker skin or
maybe stop reading others posts.

And who invited you in on this discussion?  I never said that s/he sniped at me.  I correctly stated that s/he keeps snipping my quotes and states things I never said.  I said relationships were not all about romance, but that was ignored and s/he keeps insisting I mean romances.  Snipping and sniping are 2 different words, but in your words, "what are they teaching in schools these days?"

I see so you just dont like him debating you point for point.....That is a sign of weak debating.

Uh, Than, you did kinda get the wrong end of the stick there. If that was me, and I've messed up a few times in posting, I'd acknowledge the misunderstanding and move on.

btw, snipping refers to cutting out the main body of text to specify a certain sentence and/or paragraph. Handy if you ever want to talk about something someone said and don't want the post to be th...................................................................................................................................is big.

[sdinc009]

akenn312 wrote...

MSandt wrote...

Yes, as I said it's possible that there might appear another synthetic race that wipes out all life but that's a fact of life that advanced organic civilizations have to live with. In fact, it's a fact of life we too here in real life have to live with, that our technology turns against us. There's nothing Shepard could ever do to make it otherwise, except by denying all civilizations any chance of development. In fact, if you so choose, you can do just this by going for the control option.

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

Don't forget that the only reasons the Geth were even a threat was because of the Reapers involvement. The Catalyst so called solution caused the very problem it was trying to solve so, yeah, retarded logic here. Also, how is Synthesis even a solution. Ok, so all organics and synthetics are are now an amalgum of both (how exactly does that work by the way synthetics don't have DNA and organic species have varying base amino acid compositions). So what happens if they make sythetic afterward? By the Catalyst's logic the new syntheics would then destroy all the merged synth/organic people so problem not really solved.

[Redbelle]

MSandt wrote...

Yes, as I said it's possible that there might appear another synthetic race that wipes out all life but that's a fact of life that advanced organic civilizations have to live with. In fact, it's a fact of life we too here in real life have to live with, that our technology turns against us. There's nothing Shepard could ever do to make it otherwise, except by denying all civilizations any chance of development. In fact, if you so choose, you can do just this by going for the control option.

Thinking of a car firm called Rover that lost many a job when they brought in the robotic production line. Seems to me that, comparatively speaking, tech has done ppl out of manual labour tasks. Though then we could discuss the jobs created by the tech and then go forth to say that skilled labour and our unskilled workforce are the ones who suffer the most and then talk about training into skilled professions.......................

I've got a spinning top I watched a man make out of a piece of scrap wood with handtools. The guy did it in under 2 mins. I appreciate the skill it took. Probably wouldn't appreciate a machine doing the same thing.

[Redbelle]

sdinc009 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

MSandt wrote...

Yes, as I said it's possible that there might appear another synthetic race that wipes out all life but that's a fact of life that advanced organic civilizations have to live with. In fact, it's a fact of life we too here in real life have to live with, that our technology turns against us. There's nothing Shepard could ever do to make it otherwise, except by denying all civilizations any chance of development. In fact, if you so choose, you can do just this by going for the control option.

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

Don't forget that the only reasons the Geth were even a threat was because of the Reapers involvement. The Catalyst so called solution caused the very problem it was trying to solve so, yeah, retarded logic here. Also, how is Synthesis even a solution. Ok, so all organics and synthetics are are now an amalgum of both (how exactly does that work by the way synthetics don't have DNA and organic species have varying base amino acid compositions). So what happens if they make sythetic afterward? By the Catalyst's logic the new syntheics would then destroy all the merged synth/organic people so problem not really solved.

Good point. Are all base metals now synth-a-ganic too? Have the ships in orbit above Earth, after a fashion, come to life? Do Alliance pistols now have the right to form a union and go on strike if their not greased to their satisfaction??? Do shotguns now advocate the teachings of Mahatma Ghandi and refuse to participate in violence?!?!

Darn I thought I'd put the synth ending to bed in my mind and now new information threatens the balance of my fragile little mind!!!

I'm gonna go shoot zerging husks. That always cheers me up.

Modifié par Redbelle, 04 juin 2012 - 10:01 .

[Archonsg]

Holger1405 wrote...
Well it wasn't about the Mass Relays, it was about Shepard controlling the Reapers after her/his physical dead...

I can see one explanation. That the Mass Relays did release their energies before they exploded. If you look carefully at the videos, you can see that the energy from the element zero core is release before the explosion happened. It's true, a Mass Relay is a superstructure, but they also have quantum shield's who put them together on a subatomic level. If this shielding is also gone the amount of Energy to destroy such a structure is high, but it should been well under the amount of energy needed to destroy a Planetary system. 

I was just using one POV on Space Magic (Biotics) vs Space Magic (control / Synthesis / Shepard found alive after free falling through atmosphere without armor and taking a breath) 

On the Relay thing Holger, let me try to see if you get what I am getting at.
Get a metal spoon, then flick it as hard as you can with your finger. Did it break or more importantly "explode / rupture" with bits and pieces flying away from the direction of your flick?
No? Why? Is it because you can't flick "hard" enough?

Now the same thing applies to a relay. It is made of a material that can withstand a direct Supernova blast. Codex entry Secondary > Locations > Ilos > Mu Relay

So no matter WHAT kind of energy or whether or not the "contained" energy has been expanded, the explosion that we see ripped apart a Mass Relay at point of origin has to be Supernova or stronger. Also note that a Mass Relay is NOT an enclosed structure using instead Mass Effect Fields to hold in its destructive energy, mass effect fields that again, can withstand a direct Supernova hit (and also thus contain release energy of supernova scale at least) didn't fail based on that Mu Relay incident.

Thus, to get that "spoon" to not just bend, crack or flex on application of force, you need a certain amount of force or rather kinetic / momentum energy at the point of contact to be able to overcome and "rupture" / explode / burst that spoon into bits. 
Do you agree that no matter what else that ammount of force is a constant? Meaning that less then "enough" force you just bend or crack it, not have pieces ripped off and flying off?

Now going back to the relays, those buggers EXPLODED. Boom ...bits and pieces flew every which way away from point of origin of kinetic / momentum energy. 

Logic would then dictate that if something can survive a supernova hit, to get such a structure to have bits and pieces torn off from an explosion, considering the amount of force is needed from that explosion to cause such an effect, IS NOT good for any system when it does go "Klaaabooomm!"

I am NOT judging the release of energy that so many people rightly think is bad, only by lore in game but on pure simple hard physics of materials, how explosion works (if you want I'll put up a link with the necessary mathematical equations in how to calculate just how an explosion works) but also the fact that Superstructres such as a Mass Relay has bits and pieces torn off and flung out into space from that point of origin expansion of energy.

You were military. 
I do not know if you were given engineering training but I was, and had more then my fair share  blowing up stuff and I know how cutting momentum force works. Not enough TNT or any mordern day fast munition plastics for that matter, and you can't cut Reinforced Ibeams, same rules appplies.

When you see pieces of a Relay go flying by, that is ONE BIG explosion to rival a Supernova. Want a link to what a supernova does to a planetary system from NASA / people brainier then I?

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 juin 2012 - 10:12 .

[3DandBeyond]

Unfortunately, anyone that thinks synthetic DNA isn't possible:

http://io9.com/55438...-self replicate


To be honest, this is merely a proof of concept and this DNA would require nutrition.

Now, what this means is that taking chemicals one could create DNA. Shooting a beam out that coalesces or causes all DNA in the galaxy to merge is space magic. Needing Shepard's DNA to make it happen, well that's just because Shepard must die.

Synthesis is no less stupid since it removes all self-determination and raises so many more questions beyond how could it happen.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 juin 2012 - 10:32 .

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

I'm reposting this so everyone can watch. Those that are claiming that this ending is anything other than total crap PLEASE just take the time to watch these to observe a literary analysis. The ending is awful because the narrative is broken. It doesn't make sense because it violates dozens of rules to storytelling.

Watched all 5 parts of this analysis and though I don't share all of his opinions the literary analyis is extremely top-notch. I would urge everyone to watch all 5 parts of this.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

This bears repeating and people do need to watch them especially if they think this makes sense.

[Andy the Black]

Benchpress610 wrote...

That’s all well and good, except I don’t need to know the origins of the reapers. They are an unknowable evil that needs to be eradicated. They were the perfect antagonists until glowboy made them irrelevant.

Nailed it. We never needed to know how the Reapers came in to being. It gave them an aura of mystery and made them much more threatening. The origin of many great villains is missty at best, The Borg, The Joker, Mumm-Ra. However I can see why Bio throught they had to give somthing in this regard, many would not be satisfied with the question unanswered, although I think it would of been a cool story for the next game(s). The problem is The Catalyst just droped out of thin air, never at any point in the trilogy is it hinted that the Reapers are having their strings pulled by a higher power. It's an un-necessary decision that seem shoehorned in at the end.

[3DandBeyond]

This is the most important video of the bunch listed above since it deals with the ending itself.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 juin 2012 - 10:56 .

[MSandt]

3DandBeyond wrote...

But they are not preserving organic life they are in fact destroying it (some they harvest and some they don't) and they destroy all advanced organic life when only one advanced form actually created synthetics that actually may well have decided to work with organics in the game.  This puts the lie to anything the Catalyst insists must always be true.  He decides to kill all advanced organics even those who have no desire to create AIs.

I wasn't trying to justify the Catalyst's actions. Read any religious book and you're bound to notice that gods are not quite as nice or as smart as people expect them to be. They have their own crazy ideas about how life should unfold and act vengefully when beings with free will deviate from heaven-set norms.

The Catalyst simple believed that a controlled cycle of evolution and extinction is better than a linear path that eventually leads to the extinction of all organic life.

We have no way of knowing what corporeal form if any the Catalyst takes.  His true nature could lie in redundant code that exists in places other than the Citadel, just as EDI could exist within the EDI body and the Normandy.

The relevant bit of information was supplied by the Prothean VI that specified that the Citadel is the Catalyst.

The catalyst never actually revealed himself at all.  He shows up in a form that indicates he has some all powerful ability to read Shepard's thoughts, but has no real ability to know all that Shepard could have done.  Shepard could have rejected one form or another of each of the 3 choices and also even the basis behind what the kid does, but the kid doesn't know that-things that happened repeatedly.  Yet, he grabs one image of a kid that Shepard saw for 10 total seconds.  Anyway, the kid shows up in the non-threatening form but he offers nothing to suggest who or what he really is, so he has not revealed himself.  We have learned nothing about him.  And all that we know is what he says, some of it extremely abhorrent.

The Catalyst's existence wasn't left any more vague than that of EDI even if its exact form was never revealed. Of course, we don't know everything, and we need not to. No one said the Catalyst is omnipotent or that it could know everything Shepard is going to do when even she herself didn't  know that. It wasn't even said that the Catalyst chose the glowboy form; it could have simply induced Shepard to pick that form. But this is pure speculation and completely unimportant to this discussion anyway. It doesn't really matter whether the Catalyst was a piece of code in a computer somewhere or a physical being hiding in the Citadel's attic.

We have no idea how long it would take to create more reapers or some other death machines, since we have no idea how long it took to make these.  We may have some clue that they've been doing what they do for a long time, but no idea where they came from or who built them or what.  We have one AI that says a lot of things-that is it.

So? We go by the information we have. The Catalyst said the Reapers are his solution to chaos. Do we have any reason not to believe him? It was the Protheans who initially mentioned that there is a creator. Should we expect that Bioware decided to introduce a fake creator at the very last minute just for the fun of it?

I don't claim to know who the Catalyst really is. But so what? If you were to explain his origins, you'd have to explain the origins of his origins, and so on, ad infinitum. The game is not about that. At that point Shepard probably couldn't care less and quite frankly neither should we. That stuff is for fanfiction and expanded universe material. I have no interest in turning this into a debate about who the Catalyst really is.

Basically, all you know is what he says, but if that's all you know, then you really don't know anything.  He says synthetics and organics will always fight-but Shepard says differently on Rannoch.  And still Shepard also says you do not condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

Yes, but the kid also mentions that Shepard being there is a sign that things may have changed, contrary to its expectations.

[barnigan]

First time on this page and all i see is a star wars debate so i'll just pitch my idea and be on my way

alternet ending:
Joker hears the report of the hammer team getting pounded by Harbenger and decides to do a suicide dive firing the Thanix cannon at the weak point.  This alows shepard and the remaining hammer team to make it to the conduit; however, Normandy is to large to fly in atmosphere so Joker is unable to regain altatude and crashes, but manages to get out of range of any reaper ships.  Joker contacts you as you arive on the Citadel to see if you made it and to report that he's down and reaper ground forces are moving in.  you can tell him to:
-do his best to hold his ground 
    Consequnce:
Normandy is overwhelmed and destroyed
-order arial units either from the ground support or orbital fighters (2 different options) break off and evacuate the normandy 
  Consequence:
slight decrease in military power from either ground or orbital forces since troops will return to battle after evac
-order arial units either from the ground support or orbital fighters break off and  protect the normandy
  Consequence:
large decrease in military power form either ground or orbital forces as troops are spread out further

Anderson and the remaining Hammer troops fortify their position at the conduit to prevent shepard from getting flanked as he and his squad push foward.  Shepard moves ahead to find heavy cerberus resistance.  Come to find out the Illusive man "snuck"  onto the citadel with a large squad of troops (while in truth the reapers gave him a way in since he is already indoctranated).  At some point as Shepard moves to the controles he hears a report that the ground forces are taking a beating and need additional support.  Shepard can either:
-Tell them that they just need to hang on
  Concequence:
if ground Military Power is to low the ground forces will be overrun allowing Reapers to send more of their troops through the Conduit.  This will begin to overwhelm Anderson's position and in desparation he will seal the room and blow a hole in a space facing wall venting out the reapers, himself, and whats left of Hammer.
Note: this is a little strech other possisbilities are blowing the room or simply dieing and Shepard gets attacked from both fronts front from cerburus and back from reapers.
-Oder orbital forces to send aditional fighters to provide ground support
  Concequence:
decrease military power of orbital forces and increase military power of ground forces until it's strong enough to prevent being overrun.
Shepard pushes foward unitl he reaches the Illusive man. conversation inssues you can:
-try to convence him he's indoctranated (paragon)
  Success:
he shots himself
  Fail:
he shows you how powerfull reaper teck made him aka: you fight
-argue with him until he drops his guad for a head shot (renagade)
  Success:
you kill him instantly
  Fail:
same as above
if orbital fleet still has a high enough military power the crucible is loaded otherwise it is destroyed while trying to put it into place.  also depending on military power Major charicters in the orbital fleet may be killed. while still succeding to attach the crucible.

Shepard reachs the controles and is confronted by the AI who has taken the image of the Citadel VI.  In an atemp to pursuade you to reconsider it offers to spare humans but sending back technologicaly to prevent unplanned synthetic domination.
choices here are:
-aggree to the AI's Terms
  consequence
Reapers continue their domination and programming the indoctranated humans with the mentality of early cave man
- try to convince the AI of the hipocracy of using synthetics to destroy civilizations to prevent them from building synthetics that destroy civilizations.
  Success:
AI relizes the hole in its logic and offers to send the Reapers back to dark space and see if the current cycle can prevent the Synthetic domination that its creators failed to do.
-ignore the AI and activate the Crucible
  kill repaers

[MSandt]

akenn312 wrote...

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

You're assessing the potential of synthetic life to wipe out all organic life based on a miniscule sample. Humans, for example, had barely had enough time to discover the relays. You're basing your opinion on what happened during the course of just three games spanning a few years at the most when the Catalyst had millions of years worth of data, data that was lost to everyone else a long time ago. Oh, and even during that extremely short time span (of the three games), I had to destroy the Geth because it was hinted that they'd destroy the Quarians upon reactivation. So, even such a tiny sample provided good enough a reason to be suspect of synthetic life beyond the Reapers.

[Ichigo-16]

MSandt wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

You're assessing the potential of synthetic life to wipe out all organic life based on a miniscule sample. Humans, for example, had barely had enough time to discover the relays. You're basing your opinion on what happened during the course of just three games spanning a few years at the most when the Catalyst had millions of years worth of data, data that was lost to everyone else a long time ago. Oh, and even during that extremely short time span (of the three games), I had to destroy the Geth because it was hinted that they'd destroy the Quarians upon reactivation. So, even such a tiny sample provided good enough a reason to be suspect of synthetic life beyond the Reapers.

I just beat the game and had to post a few of my thoughts.

Assessing the potential of synthetic life to wipe out all organic life on a miniscule sample is kind of what your doing with the "hint" or "tiny sample".  There is no real proof that synthetic life will infact destroy their creators.  We only have the word of the Star Kid, which is not enough reason to believe him. 

However, during ME3 the player learns that for 2 cycles in a row, the Reaper's (the solution to help save organics) are responsible for synthetics attacking and killing people.  1) Javik tells the player the only reason the Protheans were unable to win thier organic/synthetic war was because of the Reaper invasion.  The Protheans had to turn their attention towards the Reaper's just before they won, which Javik's says they were close to doing.  2) The Geth only rebeled against the Quarians when they attacked first and simply drove them off their planet and did not pursue them.  It was the Heretics of the Geth, ones influenced by the Reaper's that went out of their way to attack organics.

So it seems that, imo, that there is more proof that the synthetic/organic problem is more of side effect of the Reaper's "plan" than an unovoidable inevitability.

[3DandBeyond]

MSandt wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

But they are not preserving organic life they are in fact destroying it (some they harvest and some they don't) and they destroy all advanced organic life when only one advanced form actually created synthetics that actually may well have decided to work with organics in the game.  This puts the lie to anything the Catalyst insists must always be true.  He decides to kill all advanced organics even those who have no desire to create AIs.

I wasn't trying to justify the Catalyst's actions. Read any religious book and you're bound to notice that gods are not quite as nice or as smart as people expect them to be. They have their own crazy ideas about how life should unfold and act vengefully when beings with free will deviate from heaven-set norms.

The Catalyst simple believed that a controlled cycle of evolution and extinction is better than a linear path that eventually leads to the extinction of all organic life.

I agree with you that gods can be evil.  What I am saying is that no matter what this being, whatever it is creates justifications for things in ways that make no sense.  What I've always said is that what the kid believes is moot.  According to where Shepard is standing, the effect of what the kid is doing is evil.

We have no way of knowing what corporeal form if any the Catalyst takes.  His true nature could lie in redundant code that exists in places other than the Citadel, just as EDI could exist within the EDI body and the Normandy.

The relevant bit of information was supplied by the Prothean VI that specified that the Citadel is the Catalyst.

Refuted by the Catalyst himself.  He says the Citadel is a part of him.  There is nothing to say that the Protheans knew that much about this at all, since the Catalyst says the Citadel is not the Catalyst.

The catalyst never actually revealed himself at all.  He shows up in a form that indicates he has some all powerful ability to read Shepard's thoughts, but has no real ability to know all that Shepard could have done.  Shepard could have rejected one form or another of each of the 3 choices and also even the basis behind what the kid does, but the kid doesn't know that-things that happened repeatedly.  Yet, he grabs one image of a kid that Shepard saw for 10 total seconds.  Anyway, the kid shows up in the non-threatening form but he offers nothing to suggest who or what he really is, so he has not revealed himself.  We have learned nothing about him.  And all that we know is what he says, some of it extremely abhorrent.

The Catalyst's existence wasn't left any more vague than that of EDI even if its exact form was never revealed. Of course, we don't know everything, and we need not to. No one said the Catalyst is omnipotent or that it could know everything Shepard is going to do when even she herself didn't  know that. It wasn't even said that the Catalyst chose the glowboy form; it could have simply induced Shepard to pick that form. But this is pure speculation and completely unimportant to this discussion anyway. It doesn't really matter whether the Catalyst was a piece of code in a computer somewhere or a physical being hiding in the Citadel's attic.

I also agree here, the only thing that matters is what the kid does, and he admits he sends reapers to make people goo.  I need to know nothing beyond that because whatever else he says is subject to at least question.

We have no idea how long it would take to create more reapers or some other death machines, since we have no idea how long it took to make these.  We may have some clue that they've been doing what they do for a long time, but no idea where they came from or who built them or what.  We have one AI that says a lot of things-that is it.

So? We go by the information we have. The Catalyst said the Reapers are his solution to chaos. Do we have any reason not to believe him? It was the Protheans who initially mentioned that there is a creator. Should we expect that Bioware decided to introduce a fake creator at the very last minute just for the fun of it?

I don't claim to know who the Catalyst really is. But so what? If you were to explain his origins, you'd have to explain the origins of his origins, and so on, ad infinitum. The game is not about that. At that point Shepard probably couldn't care less and quite frankly neither should we. That stuff is for fanfiction and expanded universe material. I have no interest in turning this into a debate about who the Catalyst really is.

I've not said I need to know who he is because I've already seen what he does and I want to smash his face in.  But, I think people (maybe not you) would have a completely different opinion about trusting him or making a choice (and then agree Bioware needed to include an option to reject) if the kid looked like Harbinger or Sovereign or a beast with huge tentacles that shot acid.  Heck, Shepard didn't even trust the AI that was siphoning money on the Citadel, but Shepard trusts this AI that has been killing and has killed trillions of people? 

Basically, all you know is what he says, but if that's all you know, then you really don't know anything.  He says synthetics and organics will always fight-but Shepard says differently on Rannoch.  And still Shepard also says you do not condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.

Yes, but the kid also mentions that Shepard being there is a sign that things may have changed, contrary to its expectations.

The problem again with all that is that all you have is the kid's word for any of this.  He could be lying. 

I'm asking that you think about this.  Some guy brings a lot of thugs to your neighborhood and he tells you he controls them.  He has them kill your neighbors (the ones you like), he has them kill some of your family members.  He beats you to within an inch of your life and makes you kill a man you care deeply for.  Not only is he having people killed, but he's making them into pudding.  And when you meet him, he tells you he is doing this for your good and for the good of the neighborhood.  But, now that he's met you he has new options.  And by the way he is one huge massive infected looking person or he's a cutie that looks like your best friend's son.  But, either way you know this guy is still killing people-in fact, one of his thugs is torturing your sister right now.  Do you trust him?  I'm not asking if you are forced to do something, but only if you believe him when he says he now wants to change because he met you?  

[Redbelle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

I'm reposting this so everyone can watch. Those that are claiming that this ending is anything other than total crap PLEASE just take the time to watch these to observe a literary analysis. The ending is awful because the narrative is broken. It doesn't make sense because it violates dozens of rules to storytelling.

Watched all 5 parts of this analysis and though I don't share all of his opinions the literary analyis is extremely top-notch. I would urge everyone to watch all 5 parts of this.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

This bears repeating and people do need to watch them especially if they think this makes sense.

Started looking through these and intially thought the critic was being to harsh for the first 2 minutes..... After all, I've gotten through playthroughs without half this stuff coming to mind, But then I remembered my old writing tutor who could break fully grown aspiring writers by being this critical and get them to pay attention to detail and.............

.............. Look, BW, I know you don't read this thread. But on the off chance, If your not going to talk to us and give us answers to questions we're damn well going to find them elsewhere from other sources. And you should know that these vids are exactly what I didn't want to happen. I've gone from sitting back enjoying an action RPG to dissecting it with a fine tooth comb. It started with the ending and now creep is ocurring that's running all the way back to the beginning. And while I could be disciplined and not watch them........ I'm just too curious to see how other ppl view your product. Plus did I mention the answers to questions thing???

No matter. Just got to plow through them and get it done......... Tbh honest the lack of communication is helping to a degree. There are only so many times one can bang their head against a brick wall.

[akenn312]

MSandt wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

Wait I'm still trying to understand why people believe this and why people are so ready to accept it. Where in the story has any of the current synthetics or AI's shown that they could become all powerful and wipe out organics or destroy all life? The only synthetic race with that power and is destroying organics are the Reapers. Why are people buying into this bad writing so easily? Give us a flash back or some vision of the future to prove that this would happen. That's not too much to ask from a story.

As it stands now, the Citadel AI was easily defeated. EDI was defeated by Shepard, she became unshackled and then became an ally not a threat. Legion and the Geth became allies but previously the Geth were a threat but no enough to destroy all organic life. In every part of the story whenever technology tried to turn against organics it failed miserably or was misunderstood. So again it's like the issue with the Cain heavy weapon and the Conduit. Where did this come from all of a sudden? Why am I fearing this synthetic issue when nothing previously has shown they would or even had the power to destroy all life?

I just take the leader of the Reapers word for it to end the story? C'mon that is just lazy. For two games the story builds up synthetics to not be a threat anymore then at the last minute throws that out and says.."Yeah synthetics will always destroy organics."

This insults our intelligence…To buy into this you would have to just ignore anything the story did previously. I'm not getting the logic of why people would buy into this.

You're assessing the potential of synthetic life to wipe out all organic life based on a miniscule sample. Humans, for example, had barely had enough time to discover the relays. You're basing your opinion on what happened during the course of just three games spanning a few years at the most when the Catalyst had millions of years worth of data, data that was lost to everyone else a long time ago. Oh, and even during that extremely short time span (of the three games), I had to destroy the Geth because it was hinted that they'd destroy the Quarians upon reactivation. So, even such a tiny sample provided good enough a reason to be suspect of synthetic life beyond the Reapers.

Sorry but you're not even taking the minuscule sample of proof in the story that is actually given to us, you are making assumptions on what you think happened or assuming what the Catalyst meant to try an fill in the holes Bioware sloppily left out.

Like Ichigo-16 just mentioned Javik actually said in the game without Reaper intervention the organics of the Prothean cycle would have been victorious over the synthetics. Legion tells us in ME 2 and 3 the Reaper intervention created the heretics and started thier agression. So when did the Catalyst actually prove to us his data is correct? He can make a space magic machine out of the Citadel change everyones DNA but he's not able to show any proof or a projection or flashback of synthetics destroying us? Whaaaa?!? 

The Prothans can make a beacon that projects visions of warnings based off Reaper technology, but the actual Reaper creator can't make something to show Shepard/us actually how the synthetics are our ultimate downfall? 
That's insulting my intelligence...again.

Also destroying the Geth was not a finite choice, you could save both the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth were defending themselves from the Quarian fleet being sneaky and trying to kill them while they were uploading or changing or whatever. They stand down if you call the Quarian fleet off. So again no threat and also not a threat that would destroy the galaxy. That is proven within the game the Geth were not that powerful. EDI was not that powerful..ect.

Again without trying to fill in the blanks with personally made-up speculations and theories where in the story does the synthetics show they had the ability to destroy all organics? Only the Reapers have that power and ability to destroy all life and only the Reapers show that they are the problem for organics and synthetics. This is a major flaw in this story.

Modifié par akenn312, 05 juin 2012 - 12:54 .

[3DandBeyond]

The problem with the star kid's theory is the only synthetic/organic conflict of this cycle was something partly created by the reapers. The quarians had tried to kill the geth and fled and the geth let them go until the reapers came along.

[MSandt]

Ichigo-16 wrote...

We only have the word of the Star Kid, which is not enough reason to believe him.

You don't have to believe him, but the fact remains that he created a system that can either control or destroy synthetics or ensure that there's no distinction between them and organics. So it's pretty obvious that at least he believed this to be the case. He could be wrong, which he clearly acknowledges. Therefore he lets you choose rather than simply letting the cycle run its course again. But your choices are limited by his beliefs: he built the system based on his beliefs, not Shepard's. Whatever relationships Shepard might have established had at no point any relevance to the Catalyst or the Reapers so obviously such meaningless factors had no relevance to the system the Catalyst created and as such no relevance to the availability of choices.

In any case, I fail to see the downside of pulling the plug on synthetic lifeforms. They're just machines.

[BlueStorm83]

---  Few Points!!!

1) People still say that Shepard "sacrificed" himself.  When you're about to die anyway, you can't sacrifice yourself.  If I was going to die in 10 minutes, I'd do all KINDS of crazy ****.  Maybe I'd charge into a fire to try and save a family, but that wouldn't be a sacrifice, that would be just trying to make that death worth a damn.

2) Enjoyable or not is NOT the focus of why the majority of us hate the ending; it is because they said "You won't pick from endings A, B, and C!" and then in the game we do.  They said, "You won't find an ancient Reaper Off-Button!" and we do.  They said "Multiplayer is not necessary for the best ending!"  It is.  They said "There would be so many variations that no two endings are the same!  You won't be able to count the variations of endings!"  If you get to the "catalyst," there are six possible endings, and add the Shepard Breath scene at the end of High EMS Destroy Ending and count it as a new ending.  That's seven endings.  Multiply by 2 for the Buzz Aldrin scene you get for a continued, restarted game file.  FOURTEEN.  FOURTEEN?!  Hot damn, I can't count that high, despite it being less than half my age.  The ending is not what they advertised.

3) The way the game ends is not like the way the game begins or acts for the entirety of the action between the opening scene and the ending scenes.  Every moment besides Character Creation features choices that ripple forward.  And most importantly, we SEE these ripples in some form.  Be it something big, like freeing the Rachni Queen in ME1, or something small and underwhelmingly handled, like the e-mail about the heroic death of Kal Reegar.  At the ending, we don't get to see our ripples.  We don't feel they are our ripples.  The Catalyst created the Problem.  The Catalyst SOLVED the problem.  Maybe he used Shepard to solve the problem, but it was his machine, his choices, his solution- It was his Solution TO A PREVIOUS, FLAWED SOLUTION.

4) There is NO evidence that "The Created will always destroy the creators" or that "Synthetic life will destroy all organic life."  None at all, in any form.  We are shown no precedent of even ONE Organic race that was totally obliterated by its created synthetic children.  And if Synthetic Life destroyed all Organic Life, I wouldn't be standing there hearing about it.  ****, even the REAPERS, the absolute pinnacle of Synthetic Life (I know they're part organic,) don't destroy ALL Organic life.  FUN FACT!  The ONLY information about Synthetics destroying Organics is gained either by watching REAPERS destroy organics or by playing Telephone.  We thought for two games, and the Quarrians thought for WAY longer than that, that the Geth "Rebelled."  Turns out, the Geth, TRYING to die to protect their creators, only took up arms to SAVE the Quarrians who were foolishly dying to save THEM.  WHOOPSE!  But Javik says that in HIS cycle that Synthetics rebelled against Organics!  Ah, Javik.  Where was he?  Oh, right, on a remote outpost, after the Reapers had already been harvesting the galaxy, with no Citadel and shut-down Mass Relays.  On one of the last worlds to be Reaped.  All he has is Stories.  What about the Memory Shard?  It's his own memories, of his allies and their last moments.

5) The game foreshadowed the Catalyst's existence!  No.  Vendetta, a Virtual Intelligence (Remember, Virtual means NOT ACTUAL, but an approximation close enough to be believable,) mentions it around an hour and a half before the end.  He says that his PERSONAL BELIEF is that there is another Master to the cycles.  But that is only presumed, and not observed.  Let me define the word "presumption."  Presumption: Acceptance or belief based on reasonable evidence; assumption or supposition.  What evidence?  What reason?  All the Protheans knew was "OH ****, WHAT'S THAT IN THE-" and then they were made into goo.  The Protheans didn't even know what the Reapers were CALLED.  Remember that?  When Legion said that the name Reapers was given by the Protheans?  That he and his kind just call them "The Old Machines?"  Yeah.  Vendetta isn't infalible, either.  Look at the Shepard VI.  Look at Avina.  Neither of them are all that swift.  Even Vigil wasn't all knowing.  What's my point?  My point is that you can't take everything that Vendetta says as fact, especially when Vendetta himself mentions lacking information more than once.

6) The footage of the 3 colors of ending is nigh identical.  No data needed to explain this.  Go watch the side-by-side endings movie on youtube.  Again, I mean.  I'm sure we've all seen it at least 6 times.

7) This is the most important part:  The Shepard who takes part in that ending is not my Shepard.  I was thinking about this at work, how we can all make whatever Shepard we want.  But we actually can't.  There's ONE Shepard that can't make it to the ending: Coward Shepard.  Every Shepard who exists in Mass Effect has Bravery: the ability to get past his fear and ACT in spite of it.  But at the end of the game, my Paragon Conversationalist Shepard would have said mid Staboy Rant "Bull****!  Your reasons are moronic, your reasoning is flawed, and the only reason anything you're afraid of happens is because YOU do it!"  My Action Paragon Shepard would have called Hackett to blow up the Citadel!  ("I control the Reapers" + "I am the Citadel" = "If you blow up the Citadel, I am dead, and I CAN'T MAKE REAPERS KILL YOU ALL!")  And finally, my defiant, never EVER give in to the enemy Shepard would have said "**** you," and sat down and watched his allies win the fight by their own strength.
BioWare said that they had a Contract or a Covenant or something with the Player to NEVER remove the player from the equation.  And that's what the end does.  I can't be Shepard, Shepard can't be me.

8) Seriously?  The best ending to any videogame ever?  Clearly you haven't played Bio Shock, Bio Shock 2, inFamous 2, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, God of War 3, Assassin's Creed, or Assassin's Creed 2.  Not all of those games ended happy.  Not all of those games ended in cliche.  Some did.  But they all satisfied.  I bought Mass Effect 3 to feed my Gamehole, much like I buy a burger to feet my Fat Gut.  If I am not satisfied, I am not happy.

P.S., you want to see a heroic sacrifice, beat inFamous 2 as a good guy.  That's how you give your life to save others.  That's how you do Bittersweet.  And that's ALSO how friends send off a fallen hero.

--- 

[LiarasShield]

MSandt wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

It undoes
everything that the player does because what was the point of curing the
genopage if the krogan are gonna die in my solar system what was the
point of saving the geth or quarians if they're going to die in our
solar system or I kill them by picking the destroy option

Yes, it's a bleak prospect (which of course doesn't mean it's bad, i.e., wrong) but not every representative of those species ended up getting stuck in our solar system. Wars have a bad habit of weeding out some of the finest. They helped saved their species at the cost of ending up being permanently (maybe) disconnected from their homeworld. Who said wars are cheap?

Why
would i want to force everyone to be the same or force everybody to be
have machine or half organic and destroy the whole purpose of bringing
completely different and unqiue races to fight to deafeat a enemy

There were other choices, each one being problematic but all of which get the job done.

this
ending is bad because we don't beat the reapers because all our actions
hold no effect on the ending and we give in or submit to the very enemy
we brought the whole galaxy to fight against not submit to their
creators circular logic

Yes you do beat the Reapers and no, you don't give in. Everything you came there to do, you have a chance to do.

then you and I mustve of played two drasticlly different games since the catalyst said that he created the reapers that their our his solution why after destroying organic like for thousand or millions of years automaticlly turn all sweet heart on us and since I can still see his reapers destroying my forces in the back ground he used circular logic to back up his claim about how his synthetics kill organics so they won't make synthetics that will kill them this is broken circular logic

He claims that he is trying to protect us from synthetics but he uses the reaper code to control the geth to have them kill us

The quarians attacked the geth first and the geth only defended themselves and fought back but allowed the quarians to leave rannoch and be able to survive they didn't want to fight them anymore until the reaper code came in from the reapers hence why after you set the geth free that they want to work by your side or help the quarians rebuild their world

The creator will always be destroyed by their creator logic does not work because the quarians attack the geth first the geth never wanted to fight  and they even cooperate with them later on

The catalyst forces shepard into 3 twisted suicide options that will only really benefit the reapers or lock or trap our own forces

We don't really defeat the reapers because 2 out of the 3 endings they still live and we give into their creator

Who by all means is most likely decieveing shepard and leading him or her to ruin and we don't beat the reapers under our own steam


Control can not happen because it has never been possiable before and anyone who ever thought they could control the reapers ended up be controlled themselves plus shepard body is destroyed so he or she can't control them anyway if he or she is dead

Once synthesis bad options destroys the purpose of all three games by destroying individuality by forcing everyone to be the same and forcing them to be half machine or half organic against their will destroys any true sense of evolution or freedom or bring different races together to accomplish a goal which is to defeat the reapers

Even Javik himself said that the reason they couldn't beat the reapers because they were too much the same and couldn't adapt

Destroy another terrible options ends up killing the geth and the quarians which you spent several hours to save or to bring peace between them

Reasons why shepard couldn't have survived is

Shepard from project lazarus has synthetics parts in his or her body now without these said parts it would most likely hurt shepards chance of being alive that and taking the explosion from the red cantainer to the face and if the crucible explodes or gets destroyed during atmospheric reentry into earth it would not be enough for shepard to live

Vigil from Ilos also said that the reapers turn off the mass relays so that the reapers could have a easyer time harvesting them so if they explode it would only makes the reapers job more simple because now our forces are pretty much trapt with no way to go and the reapers could easily harvest us or they die in outerspace by runing out of resources

In 2 endings the reapers live and will most likely commit genocide again on us 50 thousand years from now or kill us again when they get the chance nothing so far has proved otherwise that they won't


Any sense of accomplishment or anything you done for all three games get flushed down the toliet with a you lose no matter what scenario


The false advertizing that our actions would affect or possibly change the ending that it wouldn't end like a  abc ending but it does the whole you can end the story the way you want is crap because we honestly can't

Before you tell me that a bleak or bittersweet ending is the only thing that can end the series that has been about choices and actions matter is blatant crap because

We had a victory ending in me1 we also had one in me2

And I gather all my war assets unite the entire galaxy including the geth and quarians and everybody else I should have the option to denie the false assertions of the catalysts and depending on my ems actually beat them

LIKE I CAME TO DO