23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

What this has now been boiled down to is:
Organics must die so that evil synthetics that may exist sometime in the future (or not) will not kill them. But the kid says organics aren't killed, they are only ascended. But vaporized people disagree. So, the kid is completely trustworthy. Take him home with you. Please.

Possible future synthetics are the real threat to the galaxy and not the present huge flying and stomping and murderous, people goo producing reapers. People must fear future synthetics and be afraid. Run to your nearest reaper so you may be turned into goo and saved from those evil future synthetics.

Up is down and blue is goat. In this "cycle" creators have tried to kill the created. However, it is the created that are at fault and in order to wipe out that created threat, the creators must die so as not to create the created. Ooops, too late. The Geth babies have been born.

No one knows what the Crucible will do and just like any romantic partner the Crucible gets close to its partner, the Citadel, that isn't the Catalyst which was supposed to be the Crucible's mate (take that glow boy) and the Crucible strips off half of its mass. That means that essentially half of all work on it seems to have been wasted or busy time. If that was supposed to be some sort of armor, then the time was still wasted because the reapers don't seem to want to attack Mr. Love Machine.

Shepard in true hero fashion is turned into a mumbling mess (yes, this is how we like our heroes), and seems to think the glow boy is some sort of savant. This is because whereas no one else knew what the Crucible would do, magically the glow boy does. Shepard sees no problem with this at all. The plans for the Crucible lay undisturbed for untold millennia as does the Crucible itself as it travels to make nice with the Citadel, and the kid knows what it does, and Shepard doesn't question any of it. Ok, next time I don't want to play as Shepard, I want to play the game as Vega, or Garrus, or anyone else with their brain intact.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juin 2012 - 09:09 .

[MSandt]

sdinc009 wrote...

I'm sorry, but last I checked the protagonist of this story is Shepard not the Catalyst. The Catalysts choices and beliefs are irrelevant to the narratives dramatic progression.

The Catalyst's creation of the Reapers is the raison d'être of the story. The universe was built around this cycle. So much was revealed already in the first game.

It is the role of the protagonist to asert their will in order to provide the dramatic elements to propel the story forward not some random last minute ghost kid that has no relevance to the story.

Shepard is not omnipotent: she cannot just "will" to undo the system the Catalyst built. But that will is what took her all the way to that final scene and gave her a chance to "will" the Reapers away. It'd have been incredibly stupid if she could have just pulled some magic trick out of her pocket or "willed" the Catalyst to do her bidding. That'd have been the definition of cheap, something you'd expect from a Marvel comic book, not the grand finale of Mass Effect.

The Catalysts logic is flawed and when thought out to it's logical conclusion collapses in on itself. For example, the Synthesis ending says that there will be peace, but what if the new synth-org decided to create a new synthetic race afterwards. By the Catalysts logic the created would then destroy the created and the Synthesis "solution" is now rendered inviable. You'd think an Superior intelligence should be able to see this possible outcome.

For the billionth time, I have not said that the Catalyst knows everything or that he is moral. He even acknowledges this himself. He didn't expect Shepard to get there and yet there she was. None of this is important. What's important is that the Catalyst, whether he was right or wrong, built the system around his beliefs. Whether he's stupid, evil or omnipotent - none of it matters except in relation to the choices available to Shepard.

[3DandBeyond]

MSandt wrote...

The Catalyst's creation of the
Reapers is the raison d'être of the story. The universe was built around
this cycle. So much was revealed already in the first game.

Actually there is no foreshadowing of the Catalyst as the one that created the reapers anywhere within the game until you reach Thessia and the Prothean VI, but even it doesn't know what is true.  The only thing people in ME3 think is the Catalyst will somehow cause the Crucible to fire (ok, there is nothing about the Crucible/Catalyst relationship that does not seem tawdry).

In ME1, Sovereign states that the reapers are independent nations unto themselves, which indicates they all act alone.  His given but not real name even implies this-he is Sovereign.

MSandt wrote...

For the billionth time, I have not said that the Catalyst knows everything or that he is moral. He even acknowledges this himself. He didn't expect Shepard to get there and yet there she was. None of this is important. What's important is that the Catalyst, whether he was right or wrong, built the system around his beliefs. Whether he's stupid, evil or omnipotent - none of it matters except in relation to the choices available to Shepard.

But you have to understand the way many of us see it is that someone that is seen as evil and that has been doing evil is not someone you would trust.  Shepard would not believe what the kid is saying and has no way to know if the 3 choices will do what the kid says they will do.  They could in fact make things even worse.  All Shepard has to go on is what the kid says. 

It does matter what Shepard thinks of the kid and not at all what the kid thinks.  The kid even lets Shepard know he's evil and lying and this matters to Shepard. 

I personally do not trust liars and killers.  So if a liar and a killer tells me they are offering 3 choices which will save me, I don't believe them, especially if they've never shown any kind of mercy and they are making people goo.  I only have to know and think about people goo to just want to smash the star kid's face in and tell him where he can put his choices.  I cannot believe a thing he says.  This is where the game fails.  The game forces every single type of Shepard to believe the kid and this could never happen.  In fact, it's even stupider because I as the player have seen the endings and I still don't think Shepard should believe the kid and make a choice.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

MSandt wrote...

For the billionth time, I have not said that the Catalyst knows everything or that he is moral. He even acknowledges this himself. He didn't expect Shepard to get there and yet there she was. None of this is important. What's important is that the Catalyst, whether he was right or wrong, built the system around his beliefs. Whether he's stupid, evil or omnipotent - none of it matters except in relation to the choices available to Shepard.

But you have to understand the way many of us see it is that someone that is seen as evil and that has been doing evil is not someone you would trust.  Shepard would not believe what the kid is saying and has no way to know if the 3 choices will do what the kid says they will do.  They could in fact make things even worse.  All Shepard has to go on is what the kid says. 

It does matter what Shepard thinks of the kid and not at all what the kid thinks.  The kid even lets Shepard know he's evil and lying and this matters to Shepard. 

I personally do not trust liars and killers.  So if a liar and a killer tells me they are offering 3 choices which will save me, I don't believe them, especially if they've never shown any kind of mercy and they are making people goo.  I only have to know and think about people goo to just want to smash the star kid's face in and tell him where he can put his choices.  I cannot believe a thing he says.  This is where the game fails.  The game forces every single type of Shepard to believe the kid and this could never happen.  In fact, it's even stupider because I as the player have seen the endings and I still don't think Shepard should believe the kid and make a choice.

There is a awful lot of I in your statment....None of which matters since the story says otherwise.

[akenn312]

MSandt wrote...
I have already addressed these points. In short:
-At no point have I implied that the Catalyst was doing the right thing
-The Catalyst itself acknowledged that he may have been wrong
-The Quarian/Geth conflict is a poor argument against the Catalyst's beliefs: even such a "recent" (probably underdeveloped from the Catalyst's point of view) synthetic "race" as the Geth had already evolved to a point where they were a considerable threat. It doesn't matter who started it.

So if the Geth are that advanced and such a future possible threat why can they easily be destroyed by one Quarian fleet after Reaper code is removed? Also if you did decide to kill them, now they are destroyed so where is the conflict? So EDI is the lone danger now? Eveina on the Citadel is gonna kill us all?

So what if we destroy all Vi's Ai's and Geth hypotheticaly on our own now will the Reapers have to fly back to Dark Space? Why do we need the Catylists machine to destroy all sythetic life. Organics can do that themselves. Tell the fleets to turn on the Geth if they werent destroyed, have EDI and any other AI or VI deactivated ASAP and now there we are problem solved. "Go back to Dark Space Reapers we're good."

That's why this sythetic concept is dumb without some type of better clarification. The Reapers could have just told everyone this in the begining instead of this "It is not a thing you can comprehend." mess. No that's pretty easy to get.

Okay Reapers we'll shut down all VI's an AI's, Reapers how about you kill all the Geth through code. Okay there you go problem solved. Yep we promise not to make any more machines.

But Shepard never questions any of this stuff like we are here because to make this story ending work they have to make everything full retard. Including Shepard accepting it.

[sdinc009]

@MSandt
The Catalyst is not the central character of the story. It is not present in the first or second game and appears completely out of the blue at the very end of ME 3. Creating a back story beyond what has already been explained is unnecessary at this point. There reasons are as they put it "unknowable" and that is what makes them a great antagonist. Also, I think you misunderstood my usage of "will". It did not mean it as some supernatural power, but that it is the protagonists inner drive, motivations, their willpower to persevere and conquer adversity. Throughout the entire narrative Shepard imposes his will against many different forces through dialogue, open fighting, and the decisions that are made, and yet in the end the very thing that has defined the character throughout 3 games is inexplicably absent.

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

MSandt wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

It undoes
everything that the player does because what was the point of curing the
genopage if the krogan are gonna die in my solar system what was the
point of saving the geth or quarians if they're going to die in our
solar system or I kill them by picking the destroy option

Yes, it's a bleak prospect (which of course doesn't mean it's bad, i.e., wrong) but not every representative of those species ended up getting stuck in our solar system. Wars have a bad habit of weeding out some of the finest. They helped saved their species at the cost of ending up being permanently (maybe) disconnected from their homeworld. Who said wars are cheap?

Why
would i want to force everyone to be the same or force everybody to be
have machine or half organic and destroy the whole purpose of bringing
completely different and unqiue races to fight to deafeat a enemy

There were other choices, each one being problematic but all of which get the job done.

this
ending is bad because we don't beat the reapers because all our actions
hold no effect on the ending and we give in or submit to the very enemy
we brought the whole galaxy to fight against not submit to their
creators circular logic

Yes you do beat the Reapers and no, you don't give in. Everything you came there to do, you have a chance to do.

then you and I mustve of played two drasticlly different games since the catalyst said that he created the reapers that their our his solution why after destroying organic like for thousand or millions of years automaticlly turn all sweet heart on us and since I can still see his reapers destroying my forces in the back ground he used circular logic to back up his claim about how his synthetics kill organics so they won't make synthetics that will kill them this is broken circular logic

He claims that he is trying to protect us from synthetics but he uses the reaper code to control the geth to have them kill us

The quarians attacked the geth first and the geth only defended themselves and fought back but allowed the quarians to leave rannoch and be able to survive they didn't want to fight them anymore until the reaper code came in from the reapers hence why after you set the geth free that they want to work by your side or help the quarians rebuild their world

The creator will always be destroyed by their creator logic does not work because the quarians attack the geth first the geth never wanted to fight  and they even cooperate with them later on

The catalyst forces shepard into 3 twisted suicide options that will only really benefit the reapers or lock or trap our own forces

We don't really defeat the reapers because 2 out of the 3 endings they still live and we give into their creator

Who by all means is most likely decieveing shepard and leading him or her to ruin and we don't beat the reapers under our own steam


Control can not happen because it has never been possiable before and anyone who ever thought they could control the reapers ended up be controlled themselves plus shepard body is destroyed so he or she can't control them anyway if he or she is dead

Once synthesis bad options destroys the purpose of all three games by destroying individuality by forcing everyone to be the same and forcing them to be half machine or half organic against their will destroys any true sense of evolution or freedom or bring different races together to accomplish a goal which is to defeat the reapers

Even Javik himself said that the reason they couldn't beat the reapers because they were too much the same and couldn't adapt

Destroy another terrible options ends up killing the geth and the quarians which you spent several hours to save or to bring peace between them

Reasons why shepard couldn't have survived is

Shepard from project lazarus has synthetics parts in his or her body now without these said parts it would most likely hurt shepards chance of being alive that and taking the explosion from the red cantainer to the face and if the crucible explodes or gets destroyed during atmospheric reentry into earth it would not be enough for shepard to live

Vigil from Ilos also said that the reapers turn off the mass relays so that the reapers could have a easyer time harvesting them so if they explode it would only makes the reapers job more simple because now our forces are pretty much trapt with no way to go and the reapers could easily harvest us or they die in outerspace by runing out of resources

In 2 endings the reapers live and will most likely commit genocide again on us 50 thousand years from now or kill us again when they get the chance nothing so far has proved otherwise that they won't


Any sense of accomplishment or anything you done for all three games get flushed down the toliet with a you lose no matter what scenario


The false advertizing that our actions would affect or possibly change the ending that it wouldn't end like a  abc ending but it does the whole you can end the story the way you want is crap because we honestly can't

Before you tell me that a bleak or bittersweet ending is the only thing that can end the series that has been about choices and actions matter is blatant crap because

We had a victory ending in me1 we also had one in me2

And I gather all my war assets unite the entire galaxy including the geth and quarians and everybody else I should have the option to denie the false assertions of the catalysts and depending on my ems actually beat them

LIKE I CAME TO DO

I agree with you nmsg

The wole point is that we didn't really win and the reapers did no matter what we do

Actually bach we have hanve give a million different reasons why we don't like the ending to major plotholes then to the abc ending that was said wouldn't have happended or how everything you do only essentially helps the reapers and not our forces

For the millionth time alot of us don't play games espically a damn rpg trilogy to have everything we have done to come undone or come apart in the final 10 minutes

Sighs at this point I'm going with some of them have been indoctrinated

[3DandBeyond]

akenn312 wrote...

MSandt wrote...
I have already addressed these points. In short:
-At no point have I implied that the Catalyst was doing the right thing
-The Catalyst itself acknowledged that he may have been wrong
-The Quarian/Geth conflict is a poor argument against the Catalyst's beliefs: even such a "recent" (probably underdeveloped from the Catalyst's point of view) synthetic "race" as the Geth had already evolved to a point where they were a considerable threat. It doesn't matter who started it.

So if the Geth are that advanced and such a future possible threat why can they easily be destroyed by one Quarian fleet after Reaper code is removed? Also if you did decide to kill them, now they are destroyed so where is the conflict? So EDI is the lone danger now? Eveina on the Citadel is gonna kill us all?

So what if we destroy all Vi's Ai's and Geth hypotheticaly on our own now will the Reapers have to fly back to Dark Space? Why do we need the Catylists machine to destroy all sythetic life. Organics can do that themselves. Tell the fleets to turn on the Geth if they werent destroyed, have EDI and any other AI or VI deactivated ASAP and now there we are problem solved. "Go back to Dark Space Reapers we're good."

---snipped

Nope that won't work because in order to prevent a threat by synthetics that might pop up at some point in the future, advanced organics must die.  So, even if the synthetics are the bad guys (uh, REAPERS), then no matter what it's the organics that must pay the price.  Makes perfect sense to me.  Some person living out on a remote planet who may be extremely peaceloving, might one day create an evil synthetic being, so in order to save them from that horrific fate, the kid must kill them.  Completely smart.

[Voodoo-j]

Im just waiting for this fall to be equally disappointed   (In relation to the other big game for me this year)

First the obvious it's down to 343 as Bungie is now seperated from MS

Then - 343 Industries Is Not Done With Master Chief   -  
I'm hoping beyond all hope this doesn't go wrong, I have alot of faith in 343 (thinking I might have had more faith in Bioware a few months ago)

- Halo 4's Creative Director Leaves 343  -
(-Is this the beginning, am I going to look back in November and think, this is where it all went wrong? (While brilliant writers remain, some had left Bioware, is this were "the vision" changes?)


This makes me think long and hard, at least with Halo 4 it's a new trilogy so my expectations are none short of good FPS.

Who in their right mind does a change up at THE END of a trilogy?
Even Bungie stayed on for ODST and Reach to help ensure 343 got off on the right footing.
I really hope ME 3 is the only epic fail I run into this year.
Wife on bedrest for 5 months and 1 to go and a baby after that, the games I get the time to play I am very selective with.

(With respectful and great sarcasm) Thanks Bioware
at least most of the game was worth the precious time I have.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 05 juin 2012 - 10:07 .

[BlueStorm83]

---  He's still killing people.  He says "My plan won't work" and he's still doing it.

He says "We take old life and store it in reaper form."  Not always, the Protheans, the absolute pinnacle of the previous cycle were reduced to mindless foot soldiers and delivery men, living in a hollow rock and relegated to finding candidates to making a new reaper.

He says, "I'm different from I was before the Crucible changed me."  But his actions haven't changed.  I'm gonna get a little Biblical here, forgive me if it comes off as preachy.  "Faith without Works is dead," as the epistle to Timothy says.  Meaning that if you claim faith, but you don't show it, you have no faith.  Crucible claims to have changed, but he's still using reapers to murder.

He offers all life the chance to become half synthetic- Exactly what the reapers were doing all along.  This is submission to the Reapers constant goals.

He offers Domination over the reapers: In at least two million years, that's 200 cycles, groups have sprung up believing this was possible.  They were NEVER right, it ALWAYS lead to their demise.

He offers Destruction of the reapers, along with the deaths of friends and allies.  What we wanted?  No, because it's on his authority, and on his terms.  Here I go getting Biblical again.  When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the Desert, Satan showed Him the entire world, he said "I'll give you all this.  Just bow to me."  Jesus, not being a moron, tells Satan to take a hike.  Why?  Because he knows who he is.  He knows that the entirety of the creation will always be his.  And he'll teach and live and suffer and die to get it if he has to.  Shortcuts are for punks.  Shepard accepting the destroy option is the ME equivalent of Jesus bowing to Satan.  Again, forgive any preachiness, being a Christian these things are easy analogies for me.  Just like concerning the ME3 endings, you're free to believe whatever you want in reality.

Do we have reason to trust the Catalyst?  I'm not asking if we have absolute PROOF that he's telling the truth.  I'm asking, has the Catalyst shown even one tiny sliver of reason that he's trustworthy?  I can't think of any.

Do we have reason to believe that the Catalyst may be working toward our death and destruction?  Look out the window.  Those are reapers, and they're killing your friends and burning your world.  Right.  Now.

If we push any of the 3 buttons, COULD good things happen?  Maybe, I don't know.  Playing Russian Roulette could get you a lot of money.  It's too big a risk for me, I'd rather just get a job.  It might be harder, it might be longer, but I can pull it off.

---  But the core issue here will always be that Bioware issued multiple statements about what Mass Effect 3's ending would be, and multiple statements about what it would not be.  Other than statements that it would be the end of Shepard's Story, none of those statements were true.

Not an issue of living up to hype, it's an issue of false advertising.  And the Better Business Bureau has already agreed with me on that.

[3DandBeyond]

Bluestorm83,
Shepard says so much within the game, but your biblical citations hit the same points. Shepard says that you don't sacrifice some to save others. In fact, I hate the Arrival because it makes it impossible to adhere to this belief. But, at least there the threat and the solution do exist in concert with one another. Shepard knows what the asteroid will do and that it will prevent an imminent threat. Shepard does not know what the kid's choices will do and as such cannot know if any of them will prevent an imminent threat.

You judge words by actions.

[Voodoo-j]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Bluestorm83,
Shepard says so much within the game, but your biblical citations hit the same points. Shepard says that you don't sacrifice some to save others. In fact, I hate the Arrival because it makes it impossible to adhere to this belief. But, at least there the threat and the solution do exist in concert with one another. Shepard knows what the asteroid will do and that it will prevent an imminent threat. Shepard does not know what the kid's choices will do and as such cannot know if any of them will prevent an imminent threat.

You judge words by actions.

I didn't put a whole lot of thought in "The Arrival" because if he didn't take out the relay the reapers were seconds from wiping it out anyway.

[MSandt]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Catalyst's points don't matter.  No matter what the Catalyst says or believes, from Shepard's point of view he is evil.  I've said this is where the game fails.  It is why people have a problem with all this, because Shepard doesn't express even a minor protest when being fed garbage by evil boy.  Shepard is no longer Shepard but some wimp.  We have not been shown that the kid can force Shepard to do anything or that Shepard even feels forced.  Shepard also has no way of knowing that destroy actually will destroy anything or that control means that or synthesis.  All Shepard has is the kid's word and it's not believable.

Shepard does argue against the kid. But she also realizes that changing the situation is way out of her league at that point. The Catalyst controls the Citadel and the Reapers. Meanwhile she's slowly dying, armed with a pistol and alone. She can't alter the situation, the availability of choices - in fact, the glowboy probably can't either, not at that point: he's simply stuck with the system he built probably a long time ago.

The system makes sense from the Catalyst's point of view. If he believes that synthetics can and will turn against their creators, he'd obviously build a fail-safe device in case he needed to destroy the Reapers. In fact, we need not speculate on this at all: the device is there and we can witness its effect.

Similarly, since the Catalyst is the initiator and manager of the cycle, he'd have to build a way to control his creations. Once again we need not speculate because the control device is there.

Rejection is an obvious choice.

Yes, a choice that'd result in the Reapers obliterating every advanced civilization and Shepard dying uselessly, having failed to accomplish her mission. Very characteristic of Shepard...

Again, the point is the kid could be giving Shepard something that does exactly the opposite of what he says it does.

Such pure speculation is fanfic material. Keep it out of this topic. There is no reason to assume the kid is lying. He says Shepard can choose to destroy the Reapers. We then see the Reapers being destroyed. (The same for the other endings.) Your reasoning is not driven by anything that happened in the game.

Shepard along the way has yelled at Legion, yelled at Garrus, and others for not sharing information or for wanting to do something more mercenary and now when it's for all the marbles, Shepard just says, basically, "okey dokey."  I have stated Shepard is acting uncharacteristically.

You missed the scene where Shepard got (almost) mortally wounded? If you find Shepard's behavior at that point uncharacteristic, try stabbing yourself a few times and let it bleed for a few dozen minutes and then see how loud you can/care to yell.

My point and that of others has always been that the game devs offered up 3 stupid supposed choices that no one would ever make without at least questioning or refuting what the kid has said and this makes Shepard very unlike Shepard. 

Shepard questioned him several times. Besides, what would be the point, given the system the Catalyst had built? No amount of yelling or arguing is going to change the system.

And again, there is no sense that Shepard is being forced or could be forced to do anything.  And any choice could lead to the reapers harvesting people faster-maybe one choice shuts down all of the Alliance's weapons or turns the geth back on with the reaper code.  Who knows?  At that point Shepard doesn't.

Once again pure fanfic speculation that's not supported by any evidence.

And that gun that God gave you could actually be a bomb that totally obliterates your neighborhood and the guy with the thugs wins.  Good job trusting him.

This is getting nuts. If a godlike being came down from heaven and gave me a gun, of course I'd be inclined to believe that the gun is a gun rather than a bomb. He could be lying but I'd still have only one reasonable conclusion to draw. Also, what choice would I have? Run away and leave everyone else to die? (This would represent the "reject" choice you wanted the game to have.)

To put your life and the lives of untold trillions of people into the hands of such a being is ridiculous at best and criminal at worst.

Those lives were already in the hands of such a being. He had absolute control over the situation.

There is a significant difference in the things the kid says about the Citadel.  He says it is his home-well the AI in ME1 that was siphoning money in the Citadel lived there, but he was working to move to a geth ship.  So, the Catalyst can't do this?  EDI "lives" in 2 places at once.  The kid says the Citadel is a part of him, that does not mean they are inrrevocably joined at the hip or that the Citadel is his actual form.  He's a program and AI programs have been shown within the game to not necessarily have been locked into one place.

It is not specified that the Catalyst is artificial. But it is specified that 1) the Citadel is the Catalyst and that 2) the Citadel is the Catalyst's home. Both of these point to one logical conclusion and that is that the Catalyst doesn't exist outside the Citadel. In any case, this is not very important now.

Modifié par MSandt, 05 juin 2012 - 10:28 .

[Holger1405]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...
  Because its mine.  I can only act on my beliefs.

True, and so do I.
Sorry BlueStorm, but I don't get your point here? 

My point is that as soon as I believe that this Starboy is ill informed, false, lying, evil, and stupid, then nothing he believes is valid.

I did made my point about why I think that the Catalyst is not lying when he (or it) said that the crucible did changed him.

The game itself didn't gave the Player another choice as to accept the three options the Catalyst presented and the outcome clearly shows that the catalyst didn't lie to us regarding the choices. 

Thus, the conviction that the Catalyst is in fact not lying when he says that he did change due to the crucible is only imported, for me as the Player, before I made a choice, (after I made one it becomes clear that the Catalyst didn't lie regarding the choices.)  and only because I wouldn't like to accept a solutions from the being that did control the Reapers.  (the "new solutions" = three choices came from the crucible not the catalyst.) 

Thus what has to be valid about the Catalysts believes?
Nothing,
(except that he beliefs in his own logic and there is no evidence that he is not believing his own logic.)

I don't need to belief that his logic is sound. I don't have to belief that he is right about is prophecies.
The crucible gave my three options to end the cycle, and that is the reason Shepard is here for.  
 

Modifié par Holger1405, 05 juin 2012 - 11:13 .

[Redbelle]

Holger1405 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...
  Because its mine.  I can only act on my beliefs.

True, and so do I.
Sorry BlueStorm, but I don't get your point here? 

My point is that as soon as I believe that this Starboy is ill informed, false, lying, evil, and stupid, then nothing he believes is valid.

I did made my point about why I think that the Catalyst is not lying when he (or it) said that the crucible did changed him.

The game itself didn't gave the Player another choice as to accept the three options the Catalyst presented and the outcome clearly shows that the catalyst didn't lie to us regarding the choices. 

Thus, the conviction that the Catalyst is in fact not lying when he says that he did change due to the crucible is only imported, for me as the Player, before I made a choice, (after I made one it becomes clear that the Catalyst didn't lie regarding the choices.)  and only because I wouldn't like to accept a solutions from the being that did control the Reapers.  (the "new solutions" = three choices came from the crucible not the catalyst.) 

Thus what has to be valid about the Catalysts believes?
Noting.
(except that he beliefs in his own logic and there is no evidence that he is not believing his own logic.)

I don't need to belief that his logic is sound. I don't have to belief that he is right about is prophecies.
The crucible gave my three options to end the cycle, and that is the reason Shepard is here for.  
 

Unfortunately, given the short amount of time we spend with the Cat, it's hard to break it down as a character. However I've noticed that when answering Sheps questions, it'll answer part of the question and leave out anything that doesn't paint it's motivations as 'good'.

I posted previously that the Cat is not so much a lier as an egotist. This is due to the fact that only it seems to believe that it has the answers to solve galactic conumdrums, or at least the one of synth vs org's. Shep's lack of exemplary Shepardness only exasabates this matter as he doesn't argue any of the points this thread has brought up that point out the only reason the galaxy is having problems in the present cycle is that the Reapers have influenced it so that it falls within their narrow mindset of what each cycle should be like. The Cat has nothing to say about this, no explanation or apology and states that it created the Reapers. Therefore the Cat must consider these events of using Synth's to further the Reaper goals as acceptable or just doesn't care. So he's out to save us but considers the use of the machines it wants to never have existed to kill in the name of the Reapers to be an acceptable trade off? Ok, more foot soldiers would speed up the process I guess. But hang on, dispite it's assertion that synth's are bad and Org's are good, since the whole system it created is made to prevent syth's from threatening Org's.......... and the only way to assure that for the next cycle 50,000yrs from now is to kill off all the Geth once the harvesting is completed.........

Doesn't the Cat kinda have double standards? It seems not to operate from what we would consider principal or a defined morality. It does what it wants and it wants to harvest........again, it wants to achieve a goal and has shown no remorse for the events that have occured to achieve that goal. It comes down to what I said before. It thinks it can do no wrong. That whatever it decides to do at any point is right and if someone like Shep argues then Shep is, by default wrong, on the grounds that it is not the Cat.

The Cat therefore has all the markings of a dictator. He's just been hiding under everyones noses for the last 50,000yrs and not letting anyone know he holds the existence of all species in his hands.

The alternative is that the Cat has a 1st cycle mentality that is completely alien. And over the past 3 games we've gottengood at understanding alien. But this is Reaper alien. It doesn't want discourse or to trade concepts or explain culture................ It wants what it wants and everything else is utterly pointless unless it's helping to get what it wants.......... Maybe the child imagery isn't so far off?

Modifié par Redbelle, 05 juin 2012 - 11:30 .

[BlueStorm83]

Holger1405 wrote...

The game itself didn't gave the Player another choice as to accept the three options the Catalyst presented and the outcome clearly shows that the catalyst didn't lie to us regarding the choices. 

You can't use an effect that only happens after a choice is made as evidence of what choice to make.  Standing before the three choices WITHOUT the foreknowledge of what actually happens in the endings is what you must make your decision on.  To require prescience on the part of the player to inform the actions of a character in a ROLE PLAYING game breaks the basic game mechanics wherein the player puts aside his own existence and enters into a joint personality with the character.

If I am driving, and I turn right, and a kid darts out from behind a car, a kid that I had NO WAY OF SEEING before he jumped in front of my vehicle, I am not guilty of murder.  You can not say "But the outcome clearly shows that a child WOULD jump in front of your car."  Causes must preceed effects in all occurrences beyond the quantum scale.

[BlueStorm83]

But honestly, whether the Catalyst is good or evil, lying or only telling the truth, the 3 choices, 14 TOTAL ending variations, multiplayer dependant ending, magic EMS related explosion, identical normandy escape and crash, and complete REMOVAL of the ability to role play YOUR Shepard makes the ending BROKEN. Not "Bad," not "Sad," not "Depressing," not "I didn't like it." BROKEN. No longer performing the function that the game was designed for, and had performed for the previous 130 hours.

[LiarasShield]

MSandt wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Catalyst's points don't matter.  No matter what the Catalyst says or believes, from Shepard's point of view he is evil.  I've said this is where the game fails.  It is why people have a problem with all this, because Shepard doesn't express even a minor protest when being fed garbage by evil boy.  Shepard is no longer Shepard but some wimp.  We have not been shown that the kid can force Shepard to do anything or that Shepard even feels forced.  Shepard also has no way of knowing that destroy actually will destroy anything or that control means that or synthesis.  All Shepard has is the kid's word and it's not believable.

Shepard does argue against the kid. But she also realizes that changing the situation is way out of her league at that point. The Catalyst controls the Citadel and the Reapers. Meanwhile she's slowly dying, armed with a pistol and alone. She can't alter the situation, the availability of choices - in fact, the glowboy probably can't either, not at that point: he's simply stuck with the system he built probably a long time ago.

The system makes sense from the Catalyst's point of view. If he believes that synthetics can and will turn against their creators, he'd obviously build a fail-safe device in case he needed to destroy the Reapers. In fact, we need not speculate on this at all: the device is there and we can witness its effect.

Similarly, since the Catalyst is the initiator and manager of the cycle, he'd have to build a way to control his creations. Once again we need not speculate because the control device is there.

Rejection is an obvious choice.

Yes, a choice that'd result in the Reapers obliterating every advanced civilization and Shepard dying uselessly, having failed to accomplish her mission. Very characteristic of Shepard...

Again, the point is the kid could be giving Shepard something that does exactly the opposite of what he says it does.

Such pure speculation is fanfic material. Keep it out of this topic. There is no reason to assume the kid is lying. He says Shepard can choose to destroy the Reapers. We then see the Reapers being destroyed. (The same for the other endings.) Your reasoning is not driven by anything that happened in the game.

Shepard along the way has yelled at Legion, yelled at Garrus, and others for not sharing information or for wanting to do something more mercenary and now when it's for all the marbles, Shepard just says, basically, "okey dokey."  I have stated Shepard is acting uncharacteristically.

You missed the scene where Shepard got (almost) mortally wounded? If you find Shepard's behavior at that point uncharacteristic, try stabbing yourself a few times and let it bleed for a few dozen minutes and then see how loud you can/care to yell.

My point and that of others has always been that the game devs offered up 3 stupid supposed choices that no one would ever make without at least questioning or refuting what the kid has said and this makes Shepard very unlike Shepard. 

Shepard questioned him several times. Besides, what would be the point, given the system the Catalyst had built? No amount of yelling or arguing is going to change the system.

And again, there is no sense that Shepard is being forced or could be forced to do anything.  And any choice could lead to the reapers harvesting people faster-maybe one choice shuts down all of the Alliance's weapons or turns the geth back on with the reaper code.  Who knows?  At that point Shepard doesn't.

Once again pure fanfic speculation that's not supported by any evidence.

And that gun that God gave you could actually be a bomb that totally obliterates your neighborhood and the guy with the thugs wins.  Good job trusting him.

This is getting nuts. If a godlike being came down from heaven and gave me a gun, of course I'd be inclined to believe that the gun is a gun rather than a bomb. He could be lying but I'd still have only one reasonable conclusion to draw. Also, what choice would I have? Run away and leave everyone else to die? (This would represent the "reject" choice you wanted the game to have.)

To put your life and the lives of untold trillions of people into the hands of such a being is ridiculous at best and criminal at worst.

Those lives were already in the hands of such a being. He had absolute control over the situation.

There is a significant difference in the things the kid says about the Citadel.  He says it is his home-well the AI in ME1 that was siphoning money in the Citadel lived there, but he was working to move to a geth ship.  So, the Catalyst can't do this?  EDI "lives" in 2 places at once.  The kid says the Citadel is a part of him, that does not mean they are inrrevocably joined at the hip or that the Citadel is his actual form.  He's a program and AI programs have been shown within the game to not necessarily have been locked into one place.

It is not specified that the Catalyst is artificial. But it is specified that 1) the Citadel is the Catalyst and that 2) the Citadel is the Catalyst's home. Both of these point to one logical conclusion and that is that the Catalyst doesn't exist outside the Citadel. In any case, this is not very important now.

You dismiss everything as fanfiction though alot of fans have given you decent reasoning but then again maybe your shepard would give up and submit to the enemy maybe your shepard would let the reapers live or trapt all your forces


I know the shepard I played as wouldn't give up in the face of adversity she would always try to find another way never give in even if the situation looks bleak even if it looks like it may not end well my shepard wouldn't have given in she would've denied the catalyst twisted logic and she would allow the alliance to fight to the end wether they win or lose that is the way they would've wanted to go out or win my shepard would fought to the end


Your simple simplistic idea that submission is ok or nothing else can be done is pure nonsense I would've had hackett fire upon the citadel or  have my forces battle it out till the end till the last man or woman is left standing or until all the reapers are destroyed

That is a noble way to go out that is how we should be to never surrender to not give into fear or into doubt but to stand our ground in the face of adversity you're whole thing of being submissive doesn't fly with me

[3DandBeyond]

MSandt wrote...



Such pure speculation is fanfic material. Keep it out of this topic. There is no reason to assume the kid is lying. He says Shepard can choose to destroy the Reapers. We then see the Reapers being destroyed. (The same for the other endings.) Your reasoning is not driven by anything that happened in the game.


It is not specified that the Catalyst is artificial. But it is specified that 1) the Citadel is the Catalyst and that 2) the Citadel is the Catalyst's home. Both of these point to one logical conclusion and that is that the Catalyst doesn't exist outside the Citadel. In any case, this is not very important now.

No, such speculation is reasonable.  And there is every reason to believe the kid is lying.  I have said consistently and repeatedly that what happens at the end is not something Shepard knows at the point where Shepard would reject the ridiculous choices.  You are minimizing what I've said and trying to make it appear childish when I find it naive and inconceivable that any human being would believe an evil individual that has every reason to lie.  The kid makes people goo.  At one point in another post you say he isn't omnipotent necessarily and now you say he's a godlike being.  Which is it?

And no the citadel is not the catalyst-since you believe the kid, he says the citadel is not the catalyst, he is.  He says Shepard can destroy the reapers, but so what?  The game fails because it forces Shepard to believe this.

I absolutely do not think any reasonable person would accept the word of some evil being that has every reason to lie.  The freaking kid has piles of bodies stacked up inside the front door of his home.  So, pardon me if I think he might not care to be honest.

And the point you make about Shepard being injured is a good one.  Uh, reaper beams have never done that before.  They vaporize things-they don't cut them up and blow the armor off people.  Shepard fought one before-as close as Harbinger was in London and any time my Shepard died, she vaporized.  There was nothing left. 

And the minor weak wimpy questions Shepard asks are out of character with the Shepard in this game, not some real person who has been stabbed with a knife.  This Shepard has a lot of synthetic parts-in fact most of Shepard's face is synthetic.  And Shepard has always been shown to be larger than life and even though half dead Shepard has jumped, run, fought, fallen, protested, and argued. 

Whatever, you've decided it makes sense in all the nonsensical places.  You haven't listened to anything anyone says.  You have the game you've always wanted.  Why then does what we say here bother you so?  You should be happy.  Doesn't mean you can't discuss stuff, but I don't think you want to have a genuine discussion.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

But honestly, whether the Catalyst is good or evil, lying or only telling the truth, the 3 choices, 14 TOTAL ending variations, multiplayer dependant ending, magic EMS related explosion, identical normandy escape and crash, and complete REMOVAL of the ability to role play YOUR Shepard makes the ending BROKEN. Not "Bad," not "Sad," not "Depressing," not "I didn't like it." BROKEN. No longer performing the function that the game was designed for, and had performed for the previous 130 hours.

Absolutely.

[LiarasShield]

Shepard during the suicide mission and shepard confrontation of the hologram of harbinger on arrival

Harbinger: you're only delaying thee inevitable shepard we will find another way and you will be destroyed

Shepard: maybe you're right maybe we can't win but we won't give up we may even lose half the galaxy but we will fight and we will sacrifce and we will find a way because that is what humans do.

Shepard: The reapers have never had to stand and fight on the ground they have used run and hit tactics but now we will bring the fight to them. In the next few minutes we either win it all or we lose it all now let get to it!


And for the final cup on the cherry my favorite ost from me2

Modifié par LiarasShield, 06 juin 2012 - 12:54 .

[3DandBeyond]

Basically what we have here is a failure to communicate.

What many of us are saying is that the game fails because as you are playing it and don't know what the outcome will be, things do not make sense and could not make sense to Shepard. Shepard does not know what making a choice will do. And at that point, Shepard must find things kind of suspicious.

No reapers attack the Crucible, which can destroy them or at least is another Alliance ship.
The kid has bodies stacked up in his "house" and it's been moved nearer to Earth to make getting bodies there for harvesting (making people goo in his kitchen) easier and faster.
The kid at the very least is doing bad things and I don't tend to think people do anything based on the word of evil people, unless they are evil as well.
The game forces the player no matter what to make Shepard make a choice, no matter how stupid the player reasonably can think any choice is and therefore the player thinks Shepard would see as stupid. This is our Shepard, the devs have said there's no canon within the game and yet, at the end any choice is a part of a canon ending in effect. Since player choice has not made much of a difference at all in the end and the ending basically plays itself, with no decision wheel, no player input, no contextual outcomes and even irrational outcomes based solely on EMS where it doesn't even make sense that EMS would apply, the endings are canon endings. You only get to choose what you are forced to choose.

The player has been removed from the game and in order to think that any one of the choices makes sense, you have to know the outcome. In order to believe them in spite of all the things the games have shown, you have to know the outcome.

Generally, the end of a story does not predict previous parts of the story, but in this game, the only way you can believe a choice will do what the kid says it will do, is to see what it does. But, even in that the game fails, because it directly contradicts other passages in the game, and it requires an over-abundance of space magic (synthesis and control) and speculation to get things to fit.

[daveyeisley]

Defending the final choices involves trusting the entity who says "I control the reapers."

That doesn't work for any version of Shepard.

There is no reason in the game why the Catalyst cannot call the reapers off unless he is lying about controlling them.

If he is telling the truth, Shepard would not trust him. If he is lying Shepard would not trust him.

Shepard would not accept the choices offered.

C:\\ME3\\ending\\finalchoices.exe
ERROR: Incorrect parameter.
(A)bort, ®etry, (F)AIL.

Modifié par daveyeisley, 06 juin 2012 - 01:07 .

[Alyrina]

Ok.

I'm not much of a poster (usually just read) hoewever

I just finished ME3 (I had the game from start but was very bussy rl and didn't had too much time to play)

Now, I spended so much time in previeus me and i also did in me3 doing tons of side missions, weight all possible choises to make etc. But now at the end everything "just" get's destroyed ...

Credits where rolling in and was just starting at my screen thinking "WTH"

ME was really one of best games made for me but now i'm not sure i'll even buy future me or dlc ...

[3DandBeyond]

LiarasShield wrote...

Shepard during the suicide mission and shepard confrontation of the hologram of harbinger on arrival

Harbinger: you're only delaying thee inevitable shepard we will find another way and you will be destroyed

Shepard: maybe you're right maybe we can't win but we won't give up we may even lose half the galaxy but we will fight and we will sacrifce and we will find a way because that is what humans do.

Shepard: The reapers have never had to stand and fight on the ground they have used run and hit tactics but now we will bring the fight to them. In the next few minutes we either win it all or we lose it all now let get to it!


And for the final cup on the cherry my favorite ost from me2

That Harbinger quote is one that always got me-and who says something similar?   The kid, he has a new solution.  He is taking ownership of the choices, but then he says the crucible changed him.  Whhhhhaaaaat?

And it created new possibilities but he can't make them work.  So, we have no idea who created this garbage.  We do  know it doesn't fit the rest of the game and it wasn't what we as paying customers were promised.

And since Shepard is really adept at finding weapons (like Cains) laying around, I think they should all just run around and find as many of those as possible, because they magically work against reapers.  Dump the Crucible, today we fight.