23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

No_MSG wrote...

MSandt wrote...
Not only am I extremely happy with the game's ending but I'm also happy with this discussion. My "problem" with the haters is simply that they're wrong about the facts. If they admitted that they simply wanted a typical wimpy ending, it'd be a different deal because that'd be a matter of taste. But rather than admitting this, many haters resort to low-quality arguments.

Because a Deus Ex Machina Space Magic Cannon is so much beefier than fighting tooth and nail for every inch of ground, and watching friend after friend die in a massive war of attrition?

Yes, and a possible happy ending or just an ending that makes sense, is so much more cliche than Deus ex and Space Jesus and the garden of eden and the granpa telling a story endings that we now have.

Give me a straight up battle where Shepard and all those assets are put into action, where some, even Shepard could die, but also might survive, bloodied but unbowed and unbroken.  What we have now is a totally broken demoralized Shepard making a choice that we can't be sure was coherently made and any one of them is equally as stupid and abhorrent as the next.

The funny thing is, even knowing what should happen due to the destruction of mass relays, the friends that should have been hurt by Harbinger's beam, and so on, some people still think that making one of the choices makes sense.  The mass relay thing can't be overcome within the context of the game.  It either should mean what the game has said it means or the ending is pure retconning as well as space magic and cliche.  The survival of anyone after the relays explode is supposed to make it all better (and make people feel they did a good thing) but it totally tears it apart.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

On the matter of the Catalyst forshadowing, can we have a show of hands who remembers the groundwork laid to get ppl ready for the Cat's introduction.......... Or perhaps someone could point to the game, the point in that game and or codex entry and when it became available. I've been wracking my mind for a hint as to the Cat's existence and I'm coming up empty.

The only possible foreshadowing of the Catalyst's existence is read in a Planetary Summary in Mass Effect 1.  If you read the description of planet Klencory, it says that a Salarian pays a mercenary army to be stationed there so he can research tombs, that he believes was built by "Beings of Light" that stood to protect organic life from "Synthetic Machine Devils."

This is an inexact match, for multiple reasons.  1) The Catalyst is merely 1 being, the Salarian's beliefs say that the Beings of Light were a race.  2) The Catalyst says that the Reapers are his creation, and also that the Citadel is part of him.  If a space station is part of you, you are Synthetic.  The Reapers are clearly Synthetic creations.  This puts both the Catalyst and the Reapers more in line with the Synthetic Machine devils than the Beings of Light.  3) Vigil, the original Prothean VI from Mass Effect also qualifies as a being of light trying to protect organics from Machine Devils.  This opens the possibility that the Beings of Light in the tombs were other VIs trying to warn of the Reapers.

If the Klencory Klen Ross connection is true, then it's tragically weak foreshadowing.

Also, information that may never be seen by much of a story's audience is not fit to be a foundation for a Climactic Revelation such as the appearance of the Catalyst.

The only other implication of the Catalyst's existence happened during the Priority: Thessia mission, roughly 2 hours play time before the Catalyst's introduction.  Not sufficiently foreshadowed, when taken as part of a 47 hours game that is the third part of a 140+ hour series.

And there are statements made by the head marketing exec at Bioware where he doesn't think people would remember something they did 8 years ago (ME has been out 5), so in his opinion people wouldn't remember such things as Klencory, which was never even proven or shown to be true. The guy looking for the crypts was eccentric (which generally is used when you don't want to say crazy).  They could have just meant eccentric, but it doesn't matter.  That was one easily missable minor description for a planet that had no significance in the game.

It's also one that you can only re-read by returning to the planet-it doesn't end up in your codex if I recall correctly.

But in order to truly foreshadow the Catalyst or overseer or reaper baby daddy, they needed to have it be hinted at within the games.  You don't have it appear as though Harbinger is running everything if he isn't.

[Strephon Gentry]

You know they have either quit listening or never started to... 900+ pages and not one comment save the initial post.

[3DandBeyond]

Strephon Gentry wrote...

You know they have either quit listening or never started to... 900+ pages and not one comment save the initial post.

And yet, they now have been wanting to have a real dialogue with fans over the creation of Dragon Age 3.

Never any real dialogue over this game and its botched patchwork ending.  But, hope dies hard.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 juin 2012 - 05:46 .

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

On the matter of the Catalyst forshadowing, can we have a show of hands who remembers the groundwork laid to get ppl ready for the Cat's introduction.......... Or perhaps someone could point to the game, the point in that game and or codex entry and when it became available. I've been wracking my mind for a hint as to the Cat's existence and I'm coming up empty.

The only possible foreshadowing of the Catalyst's existence is read in a Planetary Summary in Mass Effect 1.  If you read the description of planet Klencory, it says that a Salarian pays a mercenary army to be stationed there so he can research tombs, that he believes was built by "Beings of Light" that stood to protect organic life from "Synthetic Machine Devils."

This is an inexact match, for multiple reasons.  1) The Catalyst is merely 1 being, the Salarian's beliefs say that the Beings of Light were a race.  2) The Catalyst says that the Reapers are his creation, and also that the Citadel is part of him.  If a space station is part of you, you are Synthetic.  The Reapers are clearly Synthetic creations.  This puts both the Catalyst and the Reapers more in line with the Synthetic Machine devils than the Beings of Light.  3) Vigil, the original Prothean VI from Mass Effect also qualifies as a being of light trying to protect organics from Machine Devils.  This opens the possibility that the Beings of Light in the tombs were other VIs trying to warn of the Reapers.

If the Klencory Klen Ross connection is true, then it's tragically weak foreshadowing.

Also, information that may never be seen by much of a story's audience is not fit to be a foundation for a Climactic Revelation such as the appearance of the Catalyst.

The only other implication of the Catalyst's existence happened during the Priority: Thessia mission, roughly 2 hours play time before the Catalyst's introduction.  Not sufficiently foreshadowed, when taken as part of a 47 hours game that is the third part of a 140+ hour series.

This is all the preperation for the catalyst we had? One planetary summary in ME1 and Thessia in ME3? How far into the game was Thessia? Well over half way. The concept of the Reaper was thrown about as the big bad boogyman after the Eden Prime mission, and then we discovered that we'd seen a Reaper during the first 15 mins of the game. And I'm not going into the out of game foreshadowing. these games should be self contained story lines. The only reason I'd go online to look for mention of a being of light is if I thought it was important and in game this is never made apparent.

Your right, this is tragically weak forshadowing. It is A form of foreshadowing, just aweful foreshadowing, BW have shown they can do better in the past. As a narrative to introduce a new character this is on par with the explanation of what the Cruiclbe does and what the repurcussions are.

At least BW agree on that last point or they would not be clarifying events with their ECDLC.

Modifié par Redbelle, 07 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[saintjimmy43]

People LOVE saying Deus Ex Machina, don't they?
DEUS EX MACHINA is just fun to say. deus ex machina deus ex machina.

The Crucible, the thing you spend the entire game trying to create, is not a deus ex machina.

Here's my perfect ending:

Shepard picks the Destroy ending, effectively shaking the Reapers from his mind. He wakes up in the rubble just outside the beam.
Joker crashes the Normandy into Harbinger, buying Shepard time to get into the Citadel.
Cut straight to activation of crucible.
Several shots of soldiers of many different species looking up in wonder as the war ends. Some of Shepard's crewmates mouth the word "Shepard."
Cut to an Alliance-looking HQ, several months later. A kid plays with a model ship, jumping onto a statue of Shepard.

The guy who narrates Fallout says "War never changes"
End

[Archonsg]

You know, the only thing that makes sense now is that the Crucible was a trap, it was an indoctrination amplifying device, the whole thing from the Beam on, indoctrination dream, and Shepard, well, Shepard did not beat indoctrination, sorry indoc theorists, since s/he accepted the choices given to him/her by the catalyst.

The ECDLC will probably show the Normandy and crew still battling it out above earth, Shepard's body and those he brought with him/her will be shown dead (or mostly dead (yay for Princess Bride) ;-)) on the ground and we will see Hackett and Fleet battle it out to the last man. But it wasn't enough and the Reapers remain. Cut scene shows Earth going through the passage of time and an insectiod being that looks like a roach digging through rubble. It chirps. And we see a translation that says "Great Hives! I have found something!... " and pulls out one of Liara's "gifts".

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 juin 2012 - 09:19 .

[Alyrina]

I think it's best we stop fighting each other ...

I mean a lot of ppl share diffrent opinions on the ending, It's great to read all the answers and the activity here but it's perfectly doable to share opinions and to discuss it without "barking" at each other. This will only lead into annoyance and lead into putting "unhappy" answers u wouldn't do otherwise.

[BlueStorm83]

saintjimmy43 wrote...

People LOVE saying Deus Ex Machina, don't they?
DEUS EX MACHINA is just fun to say. deus ex machina deus ex machina.

The Crucible, the thing you spend the entire game trying to create, is not a deus ex machina.

Here's my perfect ending:

Shepard picks the Destroy ending, effectively shaking the Reapers from his mind. He wakes up in the rubble just outside the beam.
Joker crashes the Normandy into Harbinger, buying Shepard time to get into the Citadel.
Cut straight to activation of crucible.
Several shots of soldiers of many different species looking up in wonder as the war ends. Some of Shepard's crewmates mouth the word "Shepard."
Cut to an Alliance-looking HQ, several months later. A kid plays with a model ship, jumping onto a statue of Shepard.

The guy who narrates Fallout says "War never changes"
End

---  You're right about the crucible not being a Deus Ex Machina.  The Crucible is a McGuffin.  Which means, simply put, a magic item that can solve all your problems, but can only work at the right time.

The CATALYST is a Deus Ex Machina.  He is quite literally a god (or nearly all-powerful AI) from a machine (The Citadel.)

More to the point, the three choices are Dei Ex Machina as well.  They have no foreshadowing, they're never explored beyond the 5 minutes before total disappointment.

[BlueStorm83]

Archonsg wrote...

You know, the only thing that makes sense now is that the Crucible was a trap, the whole thing from the Beam on, indoctrination dream, and Shepard, well, Shepard did not beat indoctrination, sorry indoc theorists, since s/he accepted the choices given to him/her by the catalyst.

The ECDLC will probably show the Normandy and crew still battling it out above earth, Shepard's body and those he brought with him/her will be shown dead (or mostly dead (yay for Princess Bride) ;-)) on the ground and we will see Hackett and Fleet battle it out to the last man.
But it wasn't enough and the Reapers remain.

Cut scene shows Earth going through the passage of time and an insectiod being digging through rubble. It chirps. And we see a translation that says "Great Hives! I have found something!... " and pulls out one of Liara's "gifts".

That would be so much better than what we have.  Still a breach of everything BioWare said about the ending before, but at least it wouldn't gut the narrative and the characters.

[Archonsg]

@bluestorm
I hear you man. The thing is though, considering Bioware's stance, that there will be no new ending, but perhaps an extention of the current one, that is the only thing that woukd make sense.

And I see no point in trying to convince others to our point of view.
Some like Holger have been more then civil and actually contribute to very interesting discussions and I do try to see things from their point of view. Which, ironically, is what Role Playing is about. You play a character with a certain perspective based on the Socratic Question.

That is as long as they present their ideas and views without ignoring mine.
And as long as they do a little research on the matter and not just spout what comes off the top of their mind.
Not saying there won't be mistakes, made some myself, but as long as all facts are taken into consideration and they do the math, I have no problems with a different opinion.

[Archonsg]

And the evil spreads.
$77,000, that's right Seventy Thousand Dollars, DLC

This has to stop.
Greed is one thing, but... $77 grand?

Next thing we know, EA/Bioware will charge $70.00 for a game, then $39.90 for an alternative ending DLC for all their games.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 juin 2012 - 10:49 .

[Redbelle]

Archonsg wrote...

And the evil spreads.
$77,000, that's right Seventy Thousand Dollars, DLC

This has to stop.
Greed is one thing, but... $77 grand?

Next thing we know, EA/Bioware will charge $70.00 for a game, then $39.90 for an alternative ending DLC for all their games.

Think you need to add a bit more context to the link. I thought it related to EA marketing strategy and when I clicked on it I found it was an experiment unassociated to EA, BW and ME.

The concept can be applied to their future marketing though, as finding out what ppl think and how to make them want to part with their money is always on the mind of marketing research.

For my money the way to get it is simple. Make a great product within my range of interests. I liked ME1, and liked ME2 even more and that led me to do something very rare and pre-order ME3. Based on the strength of ME3's original ending I am now wary of BW quality control and will be looking much more closely at any ME4, should it be produced which means I may not be prepared to pay the launch price of ME4. Yet I did pay the launch price for ME3. BW had my confidence and now that's been knocked. I'm not saying I don't like the ME saga. I'm saying I'll need more information before I am prepared to give them my money.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...


This is all the preperation for the catalyst we had? One planetary summary in ME1 and Thessia in ME3? How far into the game was Thessia? Well over half way. The concept of the Reaper was thrown about as the big bad boogyman after the Eden Prime mission, and then we discovered that we'd seen a Reaper during the first 15 mins of the game. And I'm not going into the out of game foreshadowing. these games should be self contained story lines. The only reason I'd go online to look for mention of a being of light is if I thought it was important and in game this is never made apparent.

Your right, this is tragically weak forshadowing. It is A form of foreshadowing, just aweful foreshadowing, BW have shown they can do better in the past. As a narrative to introduce a new character this is on par with the explanation of what the Cruiclbe does and what the repurcussions are.

At least BW agree on that last point or they would not be clarifying events with their ECDLC.

It is actually no foreshadowing at all, of course since that Klencory reference does not even totally fit the star kid.  I hadn't even remembered reading it at all and had finished and already hated the ME3 ending when I went searching for something and found a discussion of Klencory.  There are so many planets that have no relevance to the game and I've read the descriptions of all of them, but would never remember all of them.

Reapers were always the big bad guys and Sovereign on Virmire says they are each nations unto themselves.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

saintjimmy43 wrote...

People LOVE saying Deus Ex Machina, don't they?
DEUS EX MACHINA is just fun to say. deus ex machina deus ex machina.

The Crucible, the thing you spend the entire game trying to create, is not a deus ex machina.

Here's my perfect ending:

Shepard picks the Destroy ending, effectively shaking the Reapers from his mind. He wakes up in the rubble just outside the beam.
Joker crashes the Normandy into Harbinger, buying Shepard time to get into the Citadel.
Cut straight to activation of crucible.
Several shots of soldiers of many different species looking up in wonder as the war ends. Some of Shepard's crewmates mouth the word "Shepard."
Cut to an Alliance-looking HQ, several months later. A kid plays with a model ship, jumping onto a statue of Shepard.

The guy who narrates Fallout says "War never changes"
End

---  You're right about the crucible not being a Deus Ex Machina.  The Crucible is a McGuffin.  Which means, simply put, a magic item that can solve all your problems, but can only work at the right time.

The CATALYST is a Deus Ex Machina.  He is quite literally a god (or nearly all-powerful AI) from a machine (The Citadel.)

More to the point, the three choices are Dei Ex Machina as well.  They have no foreshadowing, they're never explored beyond the 5 minutes before total disappointment.

I agree it's a MacGuffin.  It's something everyone is pursuing, trying to make though they have no idea how it works or what it does.  They sacrifice everything to get to it.  But, they only think it's a weapon. 

I also agree about the 3 choices, since we are to believe they will solve all problems and the magic they are imbued with to make this happen is godlike.  Or Shepard must become the god by dying, thus creating the Deus ex effect and becoming Space Jesus.

Actually, if you look at how the game Deus ex views this, Shepard might be a DeM all along the way through ME2 and 3, because of all the implants and because s/he is consistently almost worshipped (and targeted) by others.  In ME2, Ashley (I don't know if Kaiden says the same things) says on Horizon that Shepard is a god.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[Archonsg]

@redbelle
Sorry, my bad. Posting from my phone, and didn't think to specify thst it was an experiment by Molyneux.

The thing was, when reading that article, I had flashbacks of that video of EA's CEO talking about DLCs and how to get a gamer to spend thatt extra $20.00 - $5000.00 on online content based on the player's emotional investment in a game.

And Bioware is one company that understands emotional investment, or so I thought.
The current ME3 ending aside, even Dragon Age 2, had the player somewhat emotionally tied to fictional characters and care enough to want to know what happens next.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 juin 2012 - 12:26 .

[Redbelle]

Archonsg wrote...

@redbelle
Sorry, my bad. Posting from my phone, and didn't think to specify thst it was an experimentby my Molyneux.

The thing was, when reading that article, I had flashbacks of that video of EA's CEO talking about DLCs and how to get a gamer to spend tgat extra $20.00 - $5000.00 on online content based on the player's emotional investment in a game.

And Bioware is one company that understands emotional investment, or so I thought.
The current ME3 ending aside, even Dragon Age 2, had the player somewhat emotionally tied to fictional characters and care enough to want to want to know what happens next.

No problem. I've done the same thing in the past.

I read the DLC extra $20 sale on top of the main sale game to. I think at the time they reported a 40% uptake, so take the total sales of ME3. Get 40% of those sales and multiply that figure by $20. If only they hadn't done it at launch day with a addon that was so integrated with ME3 compared to Kasumi or Zaeed. in ME2. You had no dialogue wheel with those 2 on normandy.

[BlueStorm83]

--- I'm generally tired of Peter Molyneauxexauxax. I mean, he has some interesting ideas, but he tires me.

--- Shepard can't be a Deus Ex Machina. The term means "God from a Machine" and refers to, in a Greek or Roman play, when the audience was losing interest and to wrap it up before they get rowdy and violent you slap whings on an actor, lower him in by a crane, and have him say, "Hey, I'm Hermes! Polonulous is guilty and Anphipolae should marry Triondrichus! THE END!" She's been with us from the beginning. Weird, I just called Shepard "she." I don't have any female Shepards. I'd planned to make one to end up with Kaiden, then dismissed that idea since, well, the ending makes me believe that it's better to just let the Reapers Reap.

HA! That is happier! I'm more accepting of the possibility that Shepard never goes to Eden Prime, Sovereign and Saren just close the Citadel and kill everyone, and the Galaxy gets Reapered!

Ahhh, now everything feels better.

[BlueStorm83]

---  I'd also point out that the ending choices are not something that any of the devout members of the Blue Oyster Cult would choose.  What with our staunch teachings about not fearing the Reapers.

[Dom382]

Why couldn't they have just taken the IT and used that to fix the endings. We handed it to them on a silver platter, but instead they are just releasing the EC which is meant to fill in the plot holes but they are still the same terrible endings.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I'm generally tired of Peter Molyneauxexauxax. I mean, he has some interesting ideas, but he tires me.

--- Shepard can't be a Deus Ex Machina. The term means "God from a Machine" and refers to, in a Greek or Roman play, when the audience was losing interest and to wrap it up before they get rowdy and violent you slap whings on an actor, lower him in by a crane, and have him say, "Hey, I'm Hermes! Polonulous is guilty and Anphipolae should marry Triondrichus! THE END!" She's been with us from the beginning. Weird, I just called Shepard "she." I don't have any female Shepards. I'd planned to make one to end up with Kaiden, then dismissed that idea since, well, the ending makes me believe that it's better to just let the Reapers Reap.

HA! That is happier! I'm more accepting of the possibility that Shepard never goes to Eden Prime, Sovereign and Saren just close the Citadel and kill everyone, and the Galaxy gets Reapered!

Ahhh, now everything feels better.

Actually Shepard does just that constantly.  Shepard is always going in and saving the day.  Shepard in ME1 is not a Deus ex, but I think was made one in ME2.  People in ME1 don't know Shepard, by ME2 everyone does.


DeM is "god from the machine" is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

I know you and everyone else knows all this.

Of course, Shepard isn't new to the story, but the reborn brought back from the dead one is, and Shepard is often new to a location or problem, flies in and saves the day.  It doesn't matter really and was just an observation that Shepard has some of those traits.  I think if you try to too strictly put things into the Deus ex role then the star kid doesn't fit either.  He isn't solving anything because in the opinion of some, the Crucible is doing it all-which is why people think it's the DeM.  In the Wizard of Oz the wizard is the DeM, but he doesn't solve anything-he is expected to, so he is both a MacGuffin and a DeM and then he can't solve things so he is no longer the god from the machine.

I think there is great ambiguity as to who or what has control of the choices (I think the kid does or could have), but I don't think that matters as to this discussion.

I think this is an interesting discussion and feel it necessary to say I'm not arguing here and just discussing.  Hard to convey feelings in print.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 juin 2012 - 01:52 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dom382 wrote...

Why couldn't they have just taken the IT and used that to fix the endings. We handed it to them on a silver platter, but instead they are just releasing the EC which is meant to fill in the plot holes but they are still the same terrible endings.

Well, at this point no one knows if they will or not.

What has happened in the past though is they don't seem to like it if fans guess or know where the story is headed.  They really hated it that someone leaked the script or scripts. 

So, the fact that a lot of people think it's IT, might be the very reason they will make sure it isn't.

The problem with IT is that if true it means they released half a game, one with no ending.  Well, most of us think that's what they did anyway, but if they go with IT, they are then admitting it.  As it is now, they think or say that they released a complete game with a great ending.

If they change it to IT, they need to create an ending.  Well, for people like you and I with an online connection, that's ok, not great but ok.  What about people that bought the game and that have no internet?  They thought they were buying a complete game.  How do they get the ending?  Does Bioware release a new ME3 that's advertised like this, "Now complete with an ending," for people with no internet to buy? 

And then there are some things that IT does if that's what it is right now.  IT ruins Shepard.  Shepard was always under a microscope-people in ME1 thought Shepard was crazy or hallucinating, having visions from the beacon.  They never believed Shepard about anything.  In ME2 and part of 3, people (Ashley and/or Kaiden) thought Cerberus was influencing him/her.  Shepard's motives were constantly challenged by some.

If at the end of ME3, Shepard is indoctrinated (something that supposedly is dfficult if not impossible to recover from), then Shepard has not always been in control of anything.  Shepard's love interest may ask, "did you ever love me?" and of course that's a minor point.  People may wonder if Shepard has been indoctrinated, when did it happen, what choices was Shepard making or what things was Shepard doing while indoctrinated?  What if Shepard was really working with the reapers to hurt us?  Shepard re-programmed the geth, so what happens now?  Should we trust the geth?  The Krogan?  Maybe we should look for a new genophage, because maybe an indoctrinated Shepard was building an army.

What I'm saying is that anything Shepard did would be subject to question.

The only thing that would fit well and work that all out would be if Shepard wakes up and rejects indoctrination and then kicks reaper butt.  But, again, this leaves some people out of it-those without internet.

And, it means we are still stuck with the kid.  I know we probably are, anyway, and it would be so satisfying if Shepard woke up from indoctrination and found s/he was now carrying an arc projector that could disintegrate the star kid which revealed it was actually Harbinger or Bob the reaper right before disappearing.

I think people have done great work in putting together all the tidbits that point to IT.  I am afraid much of that just got left in the game when the devs abandoned indoctrination, but none of us knows and only once the EC is released will we.

[sdinc009]

MSandt wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

The Catalyst is not the central character of the story. It is not present in the first or second game and appears completely out of the blue at the very end of ME 3. Creating a back story beyond what has already been explained is unnecessary at this point. There reasons are as they put it "unknowable" and that is what makes them a great antagonist.

The Catalyst's existence is hinted at early on in the series. In fact, it'd have been unsatisfying if by the end of it all you had managed to stop the Reaper invasion but not figured out their origin. Of course, leaving that open would have been forgivable, but my point is merely that the creator didn't appear out of thin air. The creator's system, the cycle of death & rebirth, was the raison d'être of the story.

Also, I think you misunderstood my usage of "will". It did not mean it
as some supernatural power, but that it is the protagonists inner drive,
motivations, their willpower to persevere and conquer adversity.
Throughout the entire narrative Shepard imposes his will against many
different forces through dialogue, open fighting, and the decisions that
are made, and yet in the end the very thing that has defined the
character throughout 3 games is inexplicably absent.

And as I already explained, to have her "will" her way out of that situation and come up with some magic trick would have been a cheap, naive Marvel-like moment. Her will already got her there and it's precisely that will that also defeated the Reapers at the cost of her own life. The will you say was absent was in fact more present during those final ten minutes than at any earlier point in the series.

 
Where was the Catalyst ever alluded to earlier in the series and please cite the references if you're going to make this claim. It was not Shepard's will at the end that was present in the final scene it was the Catalyst's. Who was it that came up with the choices, not Shepard, the Catalyst. Having the protagonist of a story asserting their own will is in no way a Marvel-like anything. This is what happens in every story. The protgonist is set on a path a must persevere through trials and tribulations and throughout their adventure it is their will that get's them to the end of the story. Over the course of the series Shepard has made it out of some sticky situations and done the impossible countless times and he did this with shear guts and determination. Ending the story utilizing the same defining characteristic Shepard exemplifies throughout the narrative is poyent and satifying. Will is not some supernatural special power and is in no way magical. It's only the cumulation of psycological factors, like motivation, drive, determination, perseverence, etc. The Reaper cycle was not the raison d'être of the story it was only what the Reapers were trying to accomplish. It is this action that pushes against the motivations of the protgaopnist to create dramatic conflict. The story is about Shepard and your crew, they are the focus of the story, not some glow douceh that IS dropped in at the very lst scene.

[sdinc009]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Strephon Gentry wrote...

You know they have either quit listening or never started to... 900+ pages and not one comment save the initial post.

And yet, they now have been wanting to have a real dialogue with fans over the creation of Dragon Age 3.

Never any real dialogue over this game and its botched patchwork ending.  But, hope dies hard.

They want a real dialogue over Dragon Age 3, ok. How about they fix this travesty of an ending and THEN we can talk about DA 3.