23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

There is another way, and it’s by raising your Total military strength above 10,000. If you promote 34 N7 teams from MP, that would give you about 2500 TMS extra points raising it to over 10,000. Of course this would only work if you did all your side missions and assignments in SP which will bring your TMS to about 7,500. With 10,000 TMS or above, even if you never play MP again and your GR drops to 50%, your EMS will always be above 5,000

Yes, this is true.  Unfortunately, the promotions are only factored in if you are online and so this leaves open the question of what happens once the servers are abandoned (if ever totally).  And I don't know for the xbox if they are still active if you stop getting xboxlive gold.

Promoting is the best option, but it certainly isn't easy for a lot of reasons.  If you like MP and are good at it and get lucky with some cooperative people that don't quit games, you can get some promotions going.

Yeah…I know it’s difficult to promote 34 teams. I have only been able to promote 13. That post was the result of my mathematical, logical mind taking over, without regard for reality…”assuming direct control mwahahah…”but seriously, I didn’t know that if I wasn’t on line the N7 promotions weren’t factor in…that sucks!!

[3DandBeyond]

Ed B wrote...

I finally finished my first play through. (Don't have a lot of spare time.) The endings were great. I made all three selections by re-laying the game twice. Shepard "died" in all three as did Anderson, but they are truly endings that are befitting of a science fiction classic. We often are not told what happens after the final scene of the final chapter. Think Space Odyssey 2001.

Favorite moment is tough, there were so many, probably the farewell with Garrus.

2001, better book than movie.  I saw the movie when it was first release and it was treated as if God himself came down to Earth and handed people a golden "get out of jail free" card.  It was sterile and "different" for its day, but by no means a popular "hit". 

And since ME3 does "borrow" from all sorts of stories (2001 being one of them), it means it does not fit with ME.  It had the obelisk that advanced man.  ME3 has the reapers and the kid, that advance people to kill them or ascend them or make peanut butter out of them.

And this is done to "save" organics from organics that make synthetics that will kill organics.  Yes, deep and original because no one else would want to make a story that says this.

Apparently everyone, including the kid, is so stupid that they never thought of a failsafe switch for rogue synthetics.  Um, Data in STNG had one.  And last I checked the only synthetics that went on any kind of a rampage were given an impetus to do so by the kid and reapers. 

Sorry, I appreciate your opinion, but the ending retcons so much of what happened previously and then tries to assert there's some logical reason for all this by using garbage jumbled together and then by insulting people's intelligence.  They figured we wouldn't remember the rest of the game(s) and what happened or that we wouldn't care.  And then they introduce this star kid to say the most contrived bit of garbage I've ever seen in SciFi.  And on top of that they take away the meaning of all those choices made before and introduce artificial, contrived choices.

I'll make these analogies again.

It's like playing American football where the whole team works hard to get to the endzone and then being stopped on the 1 yard line.  Then, up pops 3 choices which will determine if you get a touchdown or not.  All that running and passing meant nothing, other than that they got you to the 1 yard line and got you the 3 choices.  At that point all that matters is making a choice.

Another analogy that I've used is playing a game where at the end you can become a Saint.  You do everything opposite from the things that should help you to be a Saint-kill people that make you mad, kick puppies, tease old ladies, trip caterers.  You are a pretty bad guy.  But finally you get to the place where your fate is decided and are presented with 3 doors.  It does not matter what you did up to that point, just that you got to the 3 doors.  The first door is labeled:  Become a Saint.  The second:  Do not become a Saint.  The third:  Become part Saint/part Devil. 

In both of these cases the choices are contrived and have nothing to do with the decisions or actions made along the way.  What you did did not determine the outcome.  3 contrived choices did.

On top of all that we have garbage logic, the star kid saying he's going to save people-though it looks a lot like killing people and reapers before have said they are there to kill people.  And Shepard never once using anything s/he did during the story to disagree with the kid.  No objection to the 3 stupid choices.

And on top of that, Shepard doesn't have to die in all 3 choices.  In fact, the Earth could get vaporized or Shepard could "live" depending on EMS.  For the "lives" ending you need to play multiplayer and get your galactic readiness up to near 100%.  What that has to do with all those decisions Shepard made in the game along the way, I don't know.  But, MP makes the exploding tube less powerful, so it doesn't kill Shepard.  Makes complete sense.

And yes, certainly stories of course don't tell you everything always until the end, but they do foreshadow them and take the reader/player along for the ride.  This one dumped readers/players off and then stomped on them.

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

There is another way, and it’s by raising your Total military strength above 10,000. If you promote 34 N7 teams from MP, that would give you about 2500 TMS extra points raising it to over 10,000. Of course this would only work if you did all your side missions and assignments in SP which will bring your TMS to about 7,500. With 10,000 TMS or above, even if you never play MP again and your GR drops to 50%, your EMS will always be above 5,000

Yes, this is true.  Unfortunately, the promotions are only factored in if you are online and so this leaves open the question of what happens once the servers are abandoned (if ever totally).  And I don't know for the xbox if they are still active if you stop getting xboxlive gold.

Promoting is the best option, but it certainly isn't easy for a lot of reasons.  If you like MP and are good at it and get lucky with some cooperative people that don't quit games, you can get some promotions going.

Yeah…I know it’s difficult to promote 34 teams. I have only been able to promote 13. That post was the result of my mathematical, logical mind taking over, without regard for reality…”assuming direct control mwahahah…”but seriously, I didn’t know that if I wasn’t on line the N7 promotions weren’t factor in…that sucks!!

Agreed.  I've promoted 16 and I play MP a lot. 

[Voodoo-j]

3DandBeyond wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Last I checked, June was totally summer. I want my explained crap now, the normal crap is getting old.

Summer isn't until the Summer Solstice on the 21st.  And they didn't promise summer, but hoped for summer and that could mean August.

I'm impatient too, but I hope that the longer it takes the better it is.  Realistically, that may be a false hope, but there it is.

I bet it will be out right before the end of 3rd quarter.  (about 2 1/2 - 3 months from now)

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 12 juin 2012 - 05:25 .

[Archonsg]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

There is another way, and it’s by raising your Total military strength above 10,000. If you promote 34 N7 teams from MP, that would give you about 2500 TMS extra points raising it to over 10,000. Of course this would only work if you did all your side missions and assignments in SP which will bring your TMS to about 7,500. With 10,000 TMS or above, even if you never play MP again and your GR drops to 50%, your EMS will always be above 5,000

Yes, this is true.  Unfortunately, the promotions are only factored in if you are online and so this leaves open the question of what happens once the servers are abandoned (if ever totally).  And I don't know for the xbox if they are still active if you stop getting xboxlive gold.

Promoting is the best option, but it certainly isn't easy for a lot of reasons.  If you like MP and are good at it and get lucky with some cooperative people that don't quit games, you can get some promotions going.

Yeah…I know it’s difficult to promote 34 teams. I have only been able to promote 13. That post was the result of my mathematical, logical mind taking over, without regard for reality…”assuming direct control mwahahah…”but seriously, I didn’t know that if I wasn’t on line the N7 promotions weren’t factor in…that sucks!!

Agreed.  I've promoted 16 and I play MP a lot. 

Which brings us back to the "damned if you don't, damned if you do" scenario.
I will assume too then that the Infiltrator App, and whatever other app is out there to help boost your EMS would be Origin's tied and thus the moment the "off swtich" is tabbed, everything is made "useless" say several years from now.

So kind of a double whammy "scam" there in my opinion.

At this point I am begining to feel more that EA/Bioware so much more focused on the MP side of things and the ECDLC and DLC:Earth will be shipped together as in " Guess what fans, MORE MP GOODNESS! MORE GUNS YOU HAVE TO LOTO FOR! MORE TOONS YOU'D WANT TO LOTO FOR, and oh yeah, here's the EC we promised. NOW GO PLAY MP!"

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 juin 2012 - 05:28 .

[BlueStorm83]

Ed B wrote...

I finally finished my first play through. (Don't have a lot of spare time.) The endings were great. I made all three selections by re-laying the game twice. Shepard "died" in all three as did Anderson, but they are truly endings that are befitting of a science fiction classic. We often are not told what happens after the final scene of the final chapter. Think Space Odyssey 2001.

Favorite moment is tough, there were so many, probably the farewell with Garrus.

---  To each his own, bro.  I have no problem with endings that don't tell you what happens after the final scene of the final chapter.  That's just fine. 

The problems I have (as a story-invested fan of the fiction and the universe) is that there's no real indication of what happens next, other than pure speculation.  It's less that the endings are open ended and more that they're really irrelevant to anything that happens previously.

But again, you're happy with it, and I'm glad you got your money's worth.

---  Curious, though, you said you just finished your first playthrough, but you made all three selections by re-playing the game twice.  Curious.

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

Which brings us back to the "damned if you don't, damned if you do" scenario.
I will assume too then that the Infiltrator App, and whatever other app is out there to help boost your EMS would be Origin's tied and thus the moment the "off swtich" is tabbed, everything is made "useless" say several years from now.

So kind of a double whammy "scam" there in my opinion.

At this point I am begining to feel more that EA/Bioware so much more focused on the MP side of things and the ECDLC and DLC:Earth will be shipped together as in " Guess what fans, MORE MP GOODNESS! MORE GUNS YOU HAVE TO LOTO FOR! MORE TOONS YOU'D WANT TO LOTO FOR, and oh yeah, here's the EC we promised. NOW GO PLAY MP!"

This is the big fear and there are some discussions going on about this very thing (EMS score must be boosted by MP) and it's kind of a no win for people.  They keep getting told to post the threads in different areas.  At one time they were told to post in the technical sections as if it was a bug related to a certain console.  The fact that it is tied to every platform indicates it isn't a bug, and Bioware was supposed to be looking into it a long time ago.  See how that's worked out.

The Infiltrator app (I unfortunately have it) is indeed tied to Origin as well-that's how it helps pump up EMS.  And it's even more obvious about wanting to get you suckered in to those micro transactions. 

The way it's going and just how awful it can be to play online for so many reasons, I may seriously base any future purchases on whether or not it even just includes MP.  I like MP ok, but it is just mind-numbing action in order to get people to act like crack addicts, buying everything without thinking.  What a way for games to go.  They finally get to the point where technical ability and programming knowledge and equipment will allow them to make some really rich, meaningful RPGs and they are purposely dumbing them down.  Give me Infocom any day.

[JediMike2372]

Thanatos144 wrote...

JediMike2372 wrote...

The ending wasn't art. Not even close. It was something tacked on so that the EA could put out a product and get their 30 pieces of silver. And honestly, until they admit it, I will not be buying another EA/Bioware game. Which I guess sucks to be me considering Madden 13 looks great.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You have proof of this?

Somewhere in this thread is a link to an interview that Casey Hudson and the lead writer were the ones to write the ending because Bioware was getting pressure from EA to get the game out.  I mean look at it.  It has no bearing to the story what-so-ever.  The only relation to the story is the fact that the Starbrat claims to have built the Reapers.  And the use of the A,B,C choices screams rushed.

[Voodoo-j]

I agree with you whole heartedly..
You covered yourself with this.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I don't think you need further justification.
And you are opening up yourself to the resident troll. (just to prepare you)

[Benchpress610]

JediMike2372 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

JediMike2372 wrote...

The ending wasn't art. Not even close. It was something tacked on so that the EA could put out a product and get their 30 pieces of silver. And honestly, until they admit it, I will not be buying another EA/Bioware game. Which I guess sucks to be me considering Madden 13 looks great.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You have proof of this?

Somewhere in this thread is a link to an interview that Casey Hudson and the lead writer were the ones to write the ending because Bioware was getting pressure from EA to get the game out.  I mean look at it.  It has no bearing to the story what-so-ever.  The only relation to the story is the fact that the Starbrat claims to have built the Reapers.  And the use of the A,B,C choices screams rushed.

Yea man…Voodoo-j is right. Don’t even try to argue with this guy. It’ll get you nowhere. He is our resident troll, we call him Bubbles…

[Archonsg]

Voodoo-j wrote...

I agree with you whole heartedly..
You covered yourself with this.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I don't think you need further justification.
And you are opening up yourself to the resident troll. (just to prepare you)

Trolls.
More than just one.
Though some are smarter and eloquent than others.

Sadly, though, they'd be the ones to jump and down "rejoicing" when the EC is realsed. 
While there are a few articles "announcing" the EC as an "Alternate Ending" DLC, (which at first glance had my hopes up) on further reading of these articles, it seemed more of the Freudian slip on the author's part then actual info on an actual Alternate Ending DLC.

For what little its worth, they'd get what they wanted. Pro-enders and those who think there's nothing wrong with the current ending.<_<

[Redbelle]

Have we become the Zone of The Enders???

Sry, couldn't resist.

[Massa FX]

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

[BlueStorm83]

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

---  Shepard hasn't always had troubles with AIs.  And I haven't seen all that many that were "bonkers," as you put it.  AIs that Shepard has Met:

The Schemer on the Citadel.  Shepard stops it by reasoning with it.
Sovereign.  Not insane.  Just evil.
Harbinger.  See entry on Sovereign.
Legion, AFTER Priority: Rannoch.  Sacrificed himself in a very human manner.
Other Self-aware Individual Geth:  Altruistic and intelligent.
EDI.  Has shown no characteristics other than altruism, curiousity, and caring.
Starboy.  FISHCAR ZAMBONI MACARONI WHEELS WHEELS WHOOOOOO HOT CHOCOLATE!!!!

---  And hey, I too like the Indoctrination Theory.  It would remove Starboy, remove the endings from the game's reality, and allow for a conclusion that actually makes sense in the given universe and hinges on things that a war effort that began five years ago have done, and not one man picking from three magical buttons, labelled "**** the Geth and myself," "**** myself" and "**** everyone, everywhere."  With an asterisk beneath them noting "Warning: Regardless of the button pressed, everyone will be ****ed."

[Redbelle]

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

Interesting and food for thought.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the Indoc angle of the council given that they and the citizens of the council have been their so long. If it did occur then it would be counter to the current evidence based assessment. The Cat, in my view, is less of a hands on Cat as he is a 'drop a mouse into a maze and set the bore worms on it and see how long it survives', kinda Cat.

The explanation of why the Geth and Edi, and all Reaper based tech has to go is also a good point. I disagree that the Geth, Edi and the relays are any danger but's that's solely based on my paragon playthrough. The Cat however, being a basket case that he is, could concievably decide that if we want to destroy the Reapers, then by extention we also don't want anything that ever came from the Reapers. A case of throwing baby out with the bathwater. This argument revolves around the Cat having direct control over what the destroy ending destroys however.

Can someone clarify if destroy just destroys selected tech, all tech or advanced AI. I can't remember offhand.

[BlueStorm83]

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 12 juin 2012 - 07:49 .

[Benchpress610]

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

First off, contrary to popular believe, we don’t hate anyone here. We even love our trolls.
 
Just one point: If reaper technology is a means of indoctrination and, as you say, civilizations are influenced by these devices over thousands of years to develop along the paths the reapers want,…Why go through the trouble of coming back every 50K years to harvest the most advanced ones?...why not just influence, as they have that power to do it, the advance organics to comply with their wishes of not developing synthetics? By this theory it appears the reapers are the only synthetics in the universe and they want to keep it that way….every one wants a monopoly

[Voodoo-j]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

As was pointed out to me this depends on EMS.

If your EMS is to low it will destroy most all technology.
(I didn't see the ending but it is on one of the many you tubes out there)

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 12 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[BlueStorm83]

Voodoo-j wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

As was pointed out to me this depends on EMS.

If your EMS is to low it will destroy most all technology.
(I didn't see the ending but it is on one of the many you tubes out there)

I've watched all the endings, and they're all ambiguous as all hell.  We clearly see Earth charred in the low EMS Destroy Ending, but that's just from the Crucible itself.  What happens when the Charon Relay goes up?  I'm wondering if the Relays all DO explode like the Alpha Relay and take the entire system with them.  Because, if you ask me, the Relays all actually exploding and wiping out every star system with a Relay in it is the only reason that they'd come up with the Garden World Crash Scene.

Or Rather that's the only way I would FORGIVE that bull**** nonsense retarded moronic pandering badly written cliche scene.

[Massa FX]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

---  Shepard hasn't always had troubles with AIs.  And I haven't seen all that many that were "bonkers," as you put it.  AIs that Shepard has Met:

The Schemer on the Citadel.  Shepard stops it by reasoning with it.
Sovereign.  Not insane.  Just evil.
Harbinger.  See entry on Sovereign.
Legion, AFTER Priority: Rannoch.  Sacrificed himself in a very human manner.
Other Self-aware Individual Geth:  Altruistic and intelligent.
EDI.  Has shown no characteristics other than altruism, curiousity, and caring.
Starboy.  FISHCAR ZAMBONI MACARONI WHEELS WHEELS WHOOOOOO HOT CHOCOLATE!!!!

---  And hey, I too like the Indoctrination Theory.  It would remove Starboy, remove the endings from the game's reality, and allow for a conclusion that actually makes sense in the given universe and hinges on things that a war effort that began five years ago have done, and not one man picking from three magical buttons, labelled "**** the Geth and myself," "**** myself" and "**** everyone, everywhere."  With an asterisk beneath them noting "Warning: Regardless of the button pressed, everyone will be ****ed."

The Citadel AI - My Shepard destroyed it. It was trying to blow up the Citadel (or a large portion of it)

Sovereign - Not an AI (under control of child AI)

Harbinger - Not an AI (under control of child AI)

Legion - Not an AI

Geth - Not AI (after upgrades the Geth are under the influence of child AI/Reapers)

Original EDI - Before EDI was EDI, my Shepard shut it down (during ME1) because it killed everyone on the space station. It saw the human inhabitants as threats. I think this was a N7 mission. TIM salvaged the remains and created EDI.

New EDI - She's fast learning everything about humanity as possible. She looks like the human Reaper in ME2. She and EVA don't have souls. She seems nice and loving, but she has Reaper technology inside her. She has to go.

Catalyst - Bonkers, insane, egoist, and jealous of organics

The child AI doesn't make sense to players because it's insane. It's logic is circular. Shepard is clearly under its influence and doesn't question (against character) because the AI has Shepard under control.

So why does the child AI give Shepard a chance to destroy it? Maybe some type of failsafe? The creator of the child AI made it possible that it could be destroyed. The child AI tries to confuse Shepard with 3 choices hoping that Shepard won't choose Destruction. Maybe. <shrug>  Shepard is the first organic to reach the catalyst area on the Citadel.

Modifié par Massa FX, 12 juin 2012 - 08:01 .

[Massa FX]

Massa FX wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

I'm not a troll. Please don't hate me, but consider this... <I re-posted from the IT forum>

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

---  Shepard hasn't always had troubles with AIs.  And I haven't seen all that many that were "bonkers," as you put it.  AIs that Shepard has Met:

The Schemer on the Citadel.  Shepard stops it by reasoning with it.
Sovereign.  Not insane.  Just evil.
Harbinger.  See entry on Sovereign.
Legion, AFTER Priority: Rannoch.  Sacrificed himself in a very human manner.
Other Self-aware Individual Geth:  Altruistic and intelligent.
EDI.  Has shown no characteristics other than altruism, curiousity, and caring.
Starboy.  FISHCAR ZAMBONI MACARONI WHEELS WHEELS WHOOOOOO HOT CHOCOLATE!!!!

---  And hey, I too like the Indoctrination Theory.  It would remove Starboy, remove the endings from the game's reality, and allow for a conclusion that actually makes sense in the given universe and hinges on things that a war effort that began five years ago have done, and not one man picking from three magical buttons, labelled "**** the Geth and myself," "**** myself" and "**** everyone, everywhere."  With an asterisk beneath them noting "Warning: Regardless of the button pressed, everyone will be ****ed."

The Citadel AI - My Shepard destroyed it. It was trying to blow up the Citadel (or a large portion of it)

Sovereign -  (under control of child AI)

Harbinger -  (under control of child AI)

Legion - Has Reaper upgrades (under control of child AI)

Geth -  (after upgrades the Geth are under the influence of child AI/Reapers)

Original EDI - Before EDI was EDI, my Shepard shut it down (during ME1) because it killed everyone on the space station. It saw the human inhabitants as threats. I think this was a N7 mission. TIM salvaged the remains and created EDI.

New EDI - She's fast learning everything about humanity as possible. She looks like the human Reaper in ME2. She and EVA don't have souls. She seems nice and loving, but she has Reaper technology inside her. She has to go.

Catalyst - Bonkers, insane, egoist, and jealous of organics

The child AI doesn't make sense to players because it's insane. It's logic is circular. Shepard is clearly under its influence and doesn't question (against character) because the AI has Shepard under control.

So why does the child AI give Shepard a chance to destroy it? Maybe some type of failsafe? The creator of the child AI made it possible that it could be destroyed. The child AI tries to confuse Shepard with 3 choices hoping that Shepard won't choose Destruction. Maybe. <shrug>  Shepard is the first organic to reach the catalyst area on the Citadel.

Ok. AI = machine intelligence. So, I'm updating my text above. Still it fits.

[Massa FX]

Benchpress610 wrote...


Just one point: If reaper technology is a means of indoctrination and, as you say, civilizations are influenced by these devices over thousands of years to develop along the paths the reapers want,…Why go through the trouble of coming back every 50K years to harvest the most advanced ones?...why not just influence, as they have that power to do it, the advance organics to comply with their wishes of not developing synthetics? By this theory it appears the reapers are the only synthetics in the universe and they want to keep it that way….every one wants a monopoly

Because the child AI has gone rogue. It's broken. It's bonkers. Insane. It also is very powerful having survived for untold millenia. It's original purpose is lost. It believes its purpose is to destroy organics so that synthetics don't uprise and kill their creators and the way to do that is create a race of synthetics that goes out and destroys the organics. Nuts! Bonkers! Crazy!

[BlueStorm83]

--- Close!

As to Legion and the Geth, their Reaper Upgrades never put them under the control or influence of the Reapers. They only took them to defend themselves from the Quarrian agressive attack on their holdings.

Original EDI was a VI, not an AI.

And until the final scenes of ME3, Sovereign and Harbinger were seen as AIs. In fact, they're more valid AIs since the I part means Intelligence, and the Starboy doesn't seem intelligent at all. Even if they're under his control, they still exhibit signs of intelligence.

As to EDI and Eva not having souls, I'll take this in the other direction. Do we?

Generally, the idea of the Soul is intangible. People have Souls... because the general consensus is that we have souls. In fact, when you consider only the evidence, we're Intelligent Meat Machines. If we were created and GIVEN a Soul, it was our Creator who deemed that we had a soul. Tali tells Legion that he has a soul before he dies, meeting that criteria. If we Evolved, the Soul was attained via a long process of trial and error culminating in Sentience. In Mass Effect's universe, Technology evolved via trial and error and then asserted its independance and proclaimed its equality, meeting that criteria.

Either way, Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am. I posit that if EDI and the Geth have no souls, then neither do Wrex and the Krogan, or Garrus and the Turians. What of the Rachni? The Protheans cultivated them as living weapons, but they weren't Synthetic.

Is there a line you can cross while augmenting yourself to go from having a soul to being a mostly Synthetic machine? Take Saren Arterius, Mass Effect 1. I convinced himself to shoot himself in the head, destroying his brain. This shows that he still had a modicum of control over himself. He had retained his soul. Then his body, clearly around 90% Synthetic, reanimated with Sovereign controlling it and attacked me. Was his Brain the only thing keeping him as himself?

What is a brain then? A brain is a complex system of organic circuitry, transmitting electrical information between dedicated areas that process visual data, auditory data, olfactory data, tactile data, and gustatory data. Other than that is an area dedicated to the autonomic functions dedicated to maintaining the function of the body as well as a storage area that keeps data of past recording. Why is this different from the computer inside the Normandy that houses what EDI is?

You might say that I am not just my brain, I am also my body. Remove my arm. Am I still me? Of course. Now take the other arm and my legs. Still myself? Yes. Diminished capacity does not change my nature. Take my appendix, my reproductive organs, a kidney and a lung. Am I still me? Again, yes. Replace my remaining internal organs with Synthetic analogues, leaving just the brain. Still myself. Does the Soul reside in the brain? Is the Soul a tangible thing?

I would say no. I would make the rather daring claim that to see if a thing has a soul, let it ask the question. Once you question what the essence of yourself is, you are more than the sum of your parts.

And so I would insist that the Individual Geth and EDI all have souls. I would also contest that the Reapers and the Starboy do not. They make no attempts to go beyond their nature. They don't question their own purposes. They are the only things that need to be wiped out to have a new beginning, because all other individuals I have encountered, from that one poor Asari scientist who kept signing on with my enemies out of bad luck, all the way up to the Batarian High Bastard who tried to drop an asteroid on one of MY planets, all had the ability to self determine. EDI is not just reaper tech interfaced with an erratic VI. She decided to be her own person, she decided to be better than her programming. I decide to be better than myself nearly every day. Now I'm deciding that I have to end this post because I had a big cup of tea and need to visit the restroom and reduce the sum of my parts by around a cup and a half of water.

[XXVI]

sdinc009 wrote...

XXVI wrote...

The best justification for the Reaper Cycle is that Organic civilizations, no matter how enlightened, all act like a forest fire or a virus: Unchecked, they would 1) Consume the galaxy's resources and leave it barren, and 2) Prevent younger civilizations from having a chance to develop naturally. This is why Organics represent Chaos. The Reapers represent Order because they harvest advanced civilizations and thus prevent the galaxy from being ruined by expansive and uncontrolled Organics. This allows life to continue in a perpetual balance, with each civilization free to expand naturally for a period of time.

This was presented in the narrative primarily from Javiks telling of how his cycle worked, but I have few problems with this. First, what about the people that did not get the Day 1 DLC? That whole aspect of the narrative would be lost on them. Second, that interpretation of the Reapers machination would only work within the confines of the previous cycle since the narrative establishes that the current cycle is completely different. Ex: the Salarians uplifted the Krogans. In no occurance did an advanced race outright annihilate an inferior one.

I'm not trying to justify what ME3 did, I'm offering a different explanation that would have been stronger if fully implemented.

I guess it's just what I expected. I thought I knew BioWare's writing style after many years, and Chaos vs. Order is a really strong universal theme. The simple "Man vs. Machine" felt waaaay too simplified, and it was a blatant thematic departure after the whole game stressed that life is life, regardless of form. Emphasizing that Organic civilization needs to be harvested to prevent it from consuming and ruining the galaxy, thus allowing future growth (period) is a stronger justification than "Well, you might make killer robots some day. And we don't want to risk it so we're killing you".

Yes, I did play the DLC and that probably influenced my expectations a bit. But the idea that 'Organic civilization is not sustainable' does not depend solely on supressing other cultures. The important idea is that eventually Organic civlization would expand too much and consume everything like a forest fire, leaving a barren galaxy. My personal opinion is that this justifies harvesting better than the Singularity Theory. If others disagree, then I'm obviously wrong, but as it is the ending did not match the thematic overtones of my playthrough.

[BlueStorm83]

XXVI wrote...

I'm not trying to justify what ME3 did, I'm offering a different explanation that would have been stronger if fully implemented.

I guess it's just what I expected. I thought I knew BioWare's writing style after many years, and Chaos vs. Order is a really strong universal theme. The simple "Man vs. Machine" felt waaaay too simplified, and it was a blatant thematic departure after the whole game stressed that life is life, regardless of form. Emphasizing that Organic civilization needs to be harvested to prevent it from consuming and ruining the galaxy, thus allowing future growth (period) is a stronger justification than "Well, you might make killer robots some day. And we don't want to risk it so we're killing you".

Yes, I did play the DLC and that probably influenced my expectations a bit. But the idea that 'Organic civilization is not sustainable' does not depend solely on supressing other cultures. The important idea is that eventually Organic civlization would expand too much and consume everything like a forest fire, leaving a barren galaxy. My personal opinion is that this justifies harvesting better than the Singularity Theory. If others disagree, then I'm obviously wrong, but as it is the ending did not match the thematic overtones of my playthrough.

---  Your proposed justification for the Reapers is 1000 times better than the game's nonsensical, disproven over and over again within the game itself, tripe.  I would have sooner accepted the Catalyst projecting that without periodic cullings, all Life would just destroy itself forever.

Though the Forest Fire analogy is a little off- Forest Fires actually renew the land.  In fact, the Giant Sequoia's pinecones can't drop their seed unless intense heat - the kind of heat that only a forest fire can cause - burns them open.  The Giant Sequoia almost went extinct when we stopped putting forest fires out, since it couldn't replenish itself.  Now that we let the fires burn, Forests are actually healthier than ever.