23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ed B]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Ed B wrote...

I finally finished my first play through. (Don't have a lot of spare time.) The endings were great. I made all three selections by re-laying the game twice. Shepard "died" in all three as did Anderson, but they are truly endings that are befitting of a science fiction classic. We often are not told what happens after the final scene of the final chapter. Think Space Odyssey 2001.

Favorite moment is tough, there were so many, probably the farewell with Garrus.

---  To each his own, bro.  I have no problem with endings that don't tell you what happens after the final scene of the final chapter.  That's just fine. 

The problems I have (as a story-invested fan of the fiction and the universe) is that there's no real indication of what happens next, other than pure speculation.  It's less that the endings are open ended and more that they're really irrelevant to anything that happens previously.

But again, you're happy with it, and I'm glad you got your money's worth.

---  Curious, though, you said you just finished your first playthrough, but you made all three selections by re-playing the game twice.  Curious.

That was a typo. I re-loaded the save game at the beginning of the end game sequence twice.

[XXVI]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Though the Forest Fire analogy is a little off- Forest Fires actually renew the land.  In fact, the Giant Sequoia's pinecones can't drop their seed unless intense heat - the kind of heat that only a forest fire can cause - burns them open.  The Giant Sequoia almost went extinct when we stopped putting forest fires out, since it couldn't replenish itself.  Now that we let the fires burn, Forests are actually healthier than ever.

This is exactly where I was headed with my theory!

The benefits of forest fires are circumstantial. Many parks perform "controlled burns" to prevent excess growth and clutter. Without the periodic controlled burns, 1) New trees can't grow, and 2) The risk of an Uncontrolled forest fire is drastically increased.

Substitute "controlled burn" with "Reaper Harvest" and "trees" with "Organic civilizations", and voila!

Thanks for the help refining the theory. This is why the internet is great.

[Benchpress610]

Massa FX wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...


Just one point: If reaper technology is a means of indoctrination and, as you say, civilizations are influenced by these devices over thousands of years to develop along the paths the reapers want,…Why go through the trouble of coming back every 50K years to harvest the most advanced ones?...why not just influence, as they have that power to do it, the advance organics to comply with their wishes of not developing synthetics? By this theory it appears the reapers are the only synthetics in the universe and they want to keep it that way….every one wants a monopoly

Because the child AI has gone rogue. It's broken. It's bonkers. Insane. It also is very powerful having survived for untold millenia. It's original purpose is lost. It believes its purpose is to destroy organics so that synthetics don't uprise and kill their creators and the way to do that is create a race of synthetics that goes out and destroys the organics. Nuts! Bonkers! Crazy!

I have a hard time envisioning an artificial intelligence exhibiting human emotions like being egoist and jealous of organics. There are “ones” and “zeroes” going through his cybernetic brain computing in logical algorithms…I’ll give you that the results of this “thought process” might be “bonkers: given the original input and/or flawed logic, but he/it will only act on a logical equations. It is a machine after all.
 
Now to the more practical issue: isn’t it more difficult to destroy every single piece of reaper technology scattered throughout the galaxy than simply destroy the source?  Destroying what I’d like to call the “shining blob”, would get rid of its nefarious influence while still keeping and taking advantage of its technology.  Simple, neat, no mess, Shepard lives and becomes legend.

Modifié par Benchpress610, 12 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[BlueStorm83]

Ed B wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Ed B wrote...

I finally finished my first play through. (Don't have a lot of spare time.) The endings were great. I made all three selections by re-laying the game twice. Shepard "died" in all three as did Anderson, but they are truly endings that are befitting of a science fiction classic. We often are not told what happens after the final scene of the final chapter. Think Space Odyssey 2001.

Favorite moment is tough, there were so many, probably the farewell with Garrus.

---  To each his own, bro.  I have no problem with endings that don't tell you what happens after the final scene of the final chapter.  That's just fine. 

The problems I have (as a story-invested fan of the fiction and the universe) is that there's no real indication of what happens next, other than pure speculation.  It's less that the endings are open ended and more that they're really irrelevant to anything that happens previously.

But again, you're happy with it, and I'm glad you got your money's worth.

---  Curious, though, you said you just finished your first playthrough, but you made all three selections by re-playing the game twice.  Curious.

That was a typo. I re-loaded the save game at the beginning of the end game sequence twice.

Ahh, I got ya.

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. Maybe everyone can help with something else too.

I've heard from somewhere that if you take Edi with you on all your missions and respond positively to her, you can raise her buddy score to a point where in the destroy ending, she walks out of the Normandy. Whether she's first or second out the hatch after Joker is unknown but I wonder if anyone knows if this has been confirmed?

[Corvus917]

Redbelle wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. Maybe everyone can help with something else too.

I've heard from somewhere that if you take Edi with you on all your missions and respond positively to her, you can raise her buddy score to a point where in the destroy ending, she walks out of the Normandy. Whether she's first or second out the hatch after Joker is unknown but I wonder if anyone knows if this has been confirmed?

Yeah, it's definitely possible, EDI can be shown leaving the Normandy in the Destroy ending, which makes me wonder if the Geth survive too. 

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

As was pointed out to me this depends on EMS.

If your EMS is to low it will destroy most all technology.
(I didn't see the ending but it is on one of the many you tubes out there)

I've watched all the endings, and they're all ambiguous as all hell.  We clearly see Earth charred in the low EMS Destroy Ending, but that's just from the Crucible itself.  What happens when the Charon Relay goes up?  I'm wondering if the Relays all DO explode like the Alpha Relay and take the entire system with them.  Because, if you ask me, the Relays all actually exploding and wiping out every star system with a Relay in it is the only reason that they'd come up with the Garden World Crash Scene.

Or Rather that's the only way I would FORGIVE that bull**** nonsense retarded moronic pandering badly written cliche scene.

I'm pretty sure the relay's aren't exploding in the manner of the arrival due to the energy release that took place before the relays went kaboom.

My thinking on this. Relays have to produce massive amounts of energy to relay a ship from one point in the galaxy to the other. From my playthroughs it would seem that relays can be programmed to shoot to any other relay in the galaxy, hence the distance each relay can shoot towards is variable. Distance demands the amount of energy output be variable to reach the furtherest relay and get to the closest relays. I have no idea what sort of energy build up os going on but more on that later.

The Arrival saw a massive asteroid hit the relay, the mass was big and the kinetic energy it had built up was also big. The relay was unable to handle the type of energy being transferred into it. This, on top of the damage to it's structure, made holding onto that energy destrucitve when it finally got to a point where the energy escaped the relay's containment. critically, no release of energy was observed prior to the explosion. The relay just held and held till it hit a point where its energy storage was overwhelmed.

In the end of ME3, the relays were building up their own unique form of energy, to a point where they overloaded, however as they overloaded they shot the majority of the energy build up out too the next relay where the process repeated to the next right up to the last relay where, I have to speculate, the ppl in and around that relay are either a bit screwed cause the relay has nowhere to shoot it's energy, or fires it off into space somewhere.

I'm basing this idea on what a writer said in an interview when he said that the relays did not go boom and destroy the galaxy. However......... Youtube has shown a picture of the galaxy map, measured the radius of the light and pointed out that these events were so huge that they covered a massive amount of space. I'm at a loss to explain how such an energy release that could cover that much distance in so short a space of time is possible when my theory hinges on an energy release prior to structural failure of an overstressed relay.

Modifié par Redbelle, 12 juin 2012 - 09:26 .

[Redbelle]

Scopus de Caelo wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. Maybe everyone can help with something else too.

I've heard from somewhere that if you take Edi with you on all your missions and respond positively to her, you can raise her buddy score to a point where in the destroy ending, she walks out of the Normandy. Whether she's first or second out the hatch after Joker is unknown but I wonder if anyone knows if this has been confirmed?

Yeah, it's definitely possible, EDI can be shown leaving the Normandy in the Destroy ending, which makes me wonder if the Geth survive too. 

So Shep can potentially survive the destroy ending. Edi can potentially survive the destroy ending.........I'm at a loss to explain this when the Cat stated Shep and Synthetic life, i.e. Edi would stop.

Either we're back to the Cat's lying, or

he's making outragously over exaggerated statements of delusion despite the fact he has no idea what will happen, or

someone dropped the ball when it came to the programming to reflect our choices on how they play out, or

Edi's new body defies the Cat's definition of Synthetic life. (though this raises an issue of Edi's computer core no longer being neccessary if Edi's in the body, as my understanding was that Edi was remotely controlling that body from her mainframe).

Modifié par Redbelle, 12 juin 2012 - 09:38 .

[BlueStorm83]

Scopus de Caelo wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. Maybe everyone can help with something else too.

I've heard from somewhere that if you take Edi with you on all your missions and respond positively to her, you can raise her buddy score to a point where in the destroy ending, she walks out of the Normandy. Whether she's first or second out the hatch after Joker is unknown but I wonder if anyone knows if this has been confirmed?

Yeah, it's definitely possible, EDI can be shown leaving the Normandy in the Destroy ending, which makes me wonder if the Geth survive too. 

---  Mm hm, I was just researching this myself.  Many people say that they've seen it with their own two eyes.  Personally, I really think that the ending just wasn't finished.  I think that the Eden World thing was supposed to be one possible ending, the exploding relays was supposed to be a different ending, and the destroyed Citadel was supposed to be another different ending, but due to pressures from above they just crammed them all together, put a colored screen over the footage, and said "Please please please let people not notice that it's all identical..."

But yeah, EDI living through the Destroy Ending would almost HAVE to have the Geth survive too, since the Geth are less Synthetic Lifelike than EDI is.

But then the Relays all explode, destroying Sur'kesh, Rannoch, Palaven, Earth, Thessia, Bataria, Kahje, Rakhana, Eden Prime, Noveria, Ilos, Feros, Vermire, Omega, Horizon, Illium, Dekuna, Irune, and other planets that I can't remember all explode, so the Geth die.  And the Krogans, Turians, Asari, Vorcha, Elcor, Hannar, Volus, Drell, and of course Humans are all dead.  Sure, Garrus and Tali survive on that Eden planet... until they eventually die off due to a lack of having Dextro-protien based food.  Then, 10 thousand years later, Joker and Ashley's inbred-to-retardation decendants stand under a tree and say, "Yup, I recon that uncle daddy's back from the still.  What's say we ask him to sit a spell an' be tellin' us another storuh about that thurr Shepard."  And all that's left of life anywhere is THAT mess.

I miss the Reapers.

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

---  Mm hm, I was just researching this myself.  Many people say that they've seen it with their own two eyes.  Personally, I really think that the ending just wasn't finished.  I think that the Eden World thing was supposed to be one possible ending, the exploding relays was supposed to be a different ending, and the destroyed Citadel was supposed to be another different ending, but due to pressures from above they just crammed them all together, put a colored screen over the footage, and said "Please please please let people not notice that it's all identical..."

But yeah, EDI living through the Destroy Ending would almost HAVE to have the Geth survive too, since the Geth are less Synthetic Lifelike than EDI is.

But then the Relays all explode, destroying Sur'kesh, Rannoch, Palaven, Earth, Thessia, Bataria, Kahje, Rakhana, Eden Prime, Noveria, Ilos, Feros, Vermire, Omega, Horizon, Illium, Dekuna, Irune, and other planets that I can't remember all explode, so the Geth die.  And the Krogans, Turians, Asari, Vorcha, Elcor, Hannar, Volus, Drell, and of course Humans are all dead.  Sure, Garrus and Tali survive on that Eden planet... until they eventually die off due to a lack of having Dextro-protien based food.  Then, 10 thousand years later, Joker and Ashley's inbred-to-retardation decendants stand under a tree and say, "Yup, I recon that uncle daddy's back from the still.  What's say we ask him to sit a spell an' be tellin' us another storuh about that thurr Shepard."  And all that's left of life anywhere is THAT mess.

I miss the Reapers.

Hyuck hyuck, Son o mine, when yo older y'all gonna get the Shepard dungeree's right af you gone marry yo sister.

Can't we marry other people?

Tsk, I ain't payin fah two weddin's

Modifié par Redbelle, 12 juin 2012 - 09:50 .

[Massa FX]

I have a hard time envisioning an artificial intelligence exhibiting human emotions like being egoist and jealous of organics. There are “ones” and “zeroes” going through his cybernetic brain computing in logical algorithms…I’ll give you that the results of this “thought process” might be “bonkers: given the original input and/or flawed logic, but he/it will only act on a logical equations. It is a machine after all.
 
Now to the more practical issue: isn’t it more difficult to destroy every single piece of reaper technology scattered throughout the galaxy than simply destroy the source?  Destroying what I’d like to call the “shining blob”, would get rid of its nefarious influence while still keeping and taking advantage of its technology.  Simple, neat, no mess, Shepard lives and becomes legend.

I'm puzzling this out as I type.

A rogue AI means it's not functioning as designed. It may not have conventional emotions, but in the ME Universe it sure seems rogue AI's become emotional by using flawed logic. (Citadel rogue AI and the pre EDI rogue AI)

I agree it's more logical to just destroy the rogue AI. But would that be enough to ensure the cycle breaks? <shrug>

Reaper technology is far more advanced than each cycle's organic intelligence. Organics are 'led' by the Catalyst to find technology they are not ready for. By destroying that technology it puts all organics on their original path. They have a chance to evolve naturally.

As for Shepard, I hope he/she lives. But live or die, Reaper tech doesn't belong to organics. It's placed there to further the Catalysts illogical plans to reset the cycle. It's the devils carrot. Eat the carrot and he owns you. Use the technology and you restart the cycle.

Modifié par Massa FX, 12 juin 2012 - 09:56 .

[sdinc009]

XXVI wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

XXVI wrote...

The best justification for the Reaper Cycle is that Organic civilizations, no matter how enlightened, all act like a forest fire or a virus: Unchecked, they would 1) Consume the galaxy's resources and leave it barren, and 2) Prevent younger civilizations from having a chance to develop naturally. This is why Organics represent Chaos. The Reapers represent Order because they harvest advanced civilizations and thus prevent the galaxy from being ruined by expansive and uncontrolled Organics. This allows life to continue in a perpetual balance, with each civilization free to expand naturally for a period of time.

This was presented in the narrative primarily from Javiks telling of how his cycle worked, but I have few problems with this. First, what about the people that did not get the Day 1 DLC? That whole aspect of the narrative would be lost on them. Second, that interpretation of the Reapers machination would only work within the confines of the previous cycle since the narrative establishes that the current cycle is completely different. Ex: the Salarians uplifted the Krogans. In no occurance did an advanced race outright annihilate an inferior one.

I'm not trying to justify what ME3 did, I'm offering a different explanation that would have been stronger if fully implemented.

I guess it's just what I expected. I thought I knew BioWare's writing style after many years, and Chaos vs. Order is a really strong universal theme. The simple "Man vs. Machine" felt waaaay too simplified, and it was a blatant thematic departure after the whole game stressed that life is life, regardless of form. Emphasizing that Organic civilization needs to be harvested to prevent it from consuming and ruining the galaxy, thus allowing future growth (period) is a stronger justification than "Well, you might make killer robots some day. And we don't want to risk it so we're killing you".

Yes, I did play the DLC and that probably influenced my expectations a bit. But the idea that 'Organic civilization is not sustainable' does not depend solely on supressing other cultures. The important idea is that eventually Organic civlization would expand too much and consume everything like a forest fire, leaving a barren galaxy. My personal opinion is that this justifies harvesting better than the Singularity Theory. If others disagree, then I'm obviously wrong, but as it is the ending did not match the thematic overtones of my playthrough.

Your explanation would have certainly been better than the retard logic that was given. It would just need to be elaborated on within the narrative so it could fit properly

[CommanderShep]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/368/index/12510175

I think it's just amazing!

Modifié par Kazar Keren, 12 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[sdinc009]

Redbelle wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- So, I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but do you think it's possible that the reason they had the Normandy fall out of Relay-Travel mid flight is because the Relays really were going off like the Alpha Relay in The Arrival? I mean, being on an Earthlike planet (one in a million shot, BTW, considering how ****ing HUGE space is) that's not in a system with a Relay is the only place that you could possibly survive if the Relays go off, you know? I mean, think about it.

---  Oh, and Belle, Destroy was supposed to only destroy Synthetic Life, not necessarily technology of any kind.

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. Maybe everyone can help with something else too.

I've heard from somewhere that if you take Edi with you on all your missions and respond positively to her, you can raise her buddy score to a point where in the destroy ending, she walks out of the Normandy. Whether she's first or second out the hatch after Joker is unknown but I wonder if anyone knows if this has been confirmed?

I read about this as well, but I think it's just a glitch that was never caught.

[Massa FX]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- Close!

As to Legion and the Geth, their Reaper Upgrades never put them under the control or influence of the Reapers. They only took them to defend themselves from the Quarrian agressive attack on their holdings.

Original EDI was a VI, not an AI.

And until the final scenes of ME3, Sovereign and Harbinger were seen as AIs. In fact, they're more valid AIs since the I part means Intelligence, and the Starboy doesn't seem intelligent at all. Even if they're under his control, they still exhibit signs of intelligence.

As to EDI and Eva not having souls, I'll take this in the other direction. Do we?

Generally, the idea of the Soul is intangible. People have Souls... because the general consensus is that we have souls. In fact, when you consider only the evidence, we're Intelligent Meat Machines. If we were created and GIVEN a Soul, it was our Creator who deemed that we had a soul. Tali tells Legion that he has a soul before he dies, meeting that criteria. If we Evolved, the Soul was attained via a long process of trial and error culminating in Sentience. In Mass Effect's universe, Technology evolved via trial and error and then asserted its independance and proclaimed its equality, meeting that criteria.

Either way, Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am. I posit that if EDI and the Geth have no souls, then neither do Wrex and the Krogan, or Garrus and the Turians. What of the Rachni? The Protheans cultivated them as living weapons, but they weren't Synthetic.

Is there a line you can cross while augmenting yourself to go from having a soul to being a mostly Synthetic machine? Take Saren Arterius, Mass Effect 1. I convinced himself to shoot himself in the head, destroying his brain. This shows that he still had a modicum of control over himself. He had retained his soul. Then his body, clearly around 90% Synthetic, reanimated with Sovereign controlling it and attacked me. Was his Brain the only thing keeping him as himself?

What is a brain then? A brain is a complex system of organic circuitry, transmitting electrical information between dedicated areas that process visual data, auditory data, olfactory data, tactile data, and gustatory data. Other than that is an area dedicated to the autonomic functions dedicated to maintaining the function of the body as well as a storage area that keeps data of past recording. Why is this different from the computer inside the Normandy that houses what EDI is?

You might say that I am not just my brain, I am also my body. Remove my arm. Am I still me? Of course. Now take the other arm and my legs. Still myself? Yes. Diminished capacity does not change my nature. Take my appendix, my reproductive organs, a kidney and a lung. Am I still me? Again, yes. Replace my remaining internal organs with Synthetic analogues, leaving just the brain. Still myself. Does the Soul reside in the brain? Is the Soul a tangible thing?

I would say no. I would make the rather daring claim that to see if a thing has a soul, let it ask the question. Once you question what the essence of yourself is, you are more than the sum of your parts.

And so I would insist that the Individual Geth and EDI all have souls. I would also contest that the Reapers and the Starboy do not. They make no attempts to go beyond their nature. They don't question their own purposes. They are the only things that need to be wiped out to have a new beginning, because all other individuals I have encountered, from that one poor Asari scientist who kept signing on with my enemies out of bad luck, all the way up to the Batarian High Bastard who tried to drop an asteroid on one of MY planets, all had the ability to self determine. EDI is not just reaper tech interfaced with an erratic VI. She decided to be her own person, she decided to be better than her programming. I decide to be better than myself nearly every day. Now I'm deciding that I have to end this post because I had a big cup of tea and need to visit the restroom and reduce the sum of my parts by around a cup and a half of water.

I hated Philosophy in college. Gave me a headache.

[BlueStorm83]

--- Shepard: "I need to stop the reapers!"
Starboy: "You have the power to do so. You can destroy all Synthetic life."
Shepard: "I can?"
Starboy: "Yeah, sure. I mean, maybe. You might die too. You're Synthetic, right? I mean, mostly? Yeah, you'll die too."
Shepard: "You don't seem to sure."
Starboy: "No, really, like, all Synthetic Life will die if you shoot that pipe there. You, and the Geth, and the Reapers, and the Locust, and the Covenant, and those Mario Brothers too."
Shepard: "Yeah, most of those are videogame characters. That's not really synthetic life."
Starboy: "No, they are. I've seen them on the TV. Reviewers are always talking about their Artificial Intelligence."
Shepard: "Right, but that's just technical jargon. They're not really intelligent. They're not even Virtually Intelligent."
Starboy: "Huh."
Shepard: "Yeah."
(Long Pause.)
Shepard: "So, really, destroying the pipe will kill the Geth?"
Starboy: "Probably. I mean, it's a pipe. What else would it do?"
Shepard: "Pipes don't usually destroy Synthetic Life."
Starboy: "This one will. Trust me. If you want to, you can control the Reapers instead."
Shepard: "Cool! how do I do that?"
Starboy: "Take this implement, and insert it into that slot there."
Shepard: "This is a fork, and that's an electrical socket. That'll kill me."
Starboy: "Right. But then you'll control the Reapers."
Shepard: "Okay, I'll bite. How can I control the Reapers when I'm dead?"
Starboy: "That's how it worked for everyone else. Like Saren, and The Illusive Man."
Shepard: "Close. They wanted to control the Reapers, and THEN they died."
Starboy: "Exactly, control blah blah, yadda yadda, dead."
Shepard: "I'll pass on that. Any other options?"
Starboy: "Well, since you're SUPER good at this all, I'll let you have the super secret option: We can BLEND all your organics with the Synthetics."
Shepard: "In a blender, right?"
Starboy: "Right! I mean, no. That's dumb, what would make you think that? (nervous chuckle.)"
Shepard: "Because I've seen your guys doing that before."
Starboy: "Those guys? We're not with them. We don't want to blend people with Synthetics. I mean, what? No, we're not about that. But since that's what you've wanted all along, I'll let you have it."
Shepard: "Yeah, that's not what I wanted all along. That's what the Reapers wanted all along. That's why they were sticking people on Eden Prime onto the Dragons' Teeth and turning them into Husks."
Starboy: "Dragons... what? Nope, I don't think that was us. That must have been you. Yeah. So really, pick Synthesis."
Shepard: "Quick question before I pick, when you take things, and synthesize something new out of them, what is that new thing? Like, what would you classify it as."
Starboy: "Synthetic. Why- oh, crap."
Shepard: "Yeah. So my choices are to either doom Synthetic Life in general including me, doom Organic Life in general including me, or control the Reapers... after I'm dead."
Starboy: "Pretty much. Sorry bro. OH! And the Mass Relays will be destroyed."
Shepard: "Destroyed? That's not good. I mean, I destroyed a Mass Relay once before. It did NOT end well for any planets near by. No sir, it did not. Those things kinda, well, blow up. Bad."
Starboy: "Right, but... this way they won't?"
Shepard: "That sounded like a question."
Starboy: "Yeah, everyone should be fine. I mean, besides, you know."
Shepard: "Besides what?"
Starboy: "Well, that fleet near Earth. They'll be stuck there if they don't get blown up when the Realy explodes."
Shepard: "But you said-"
Starboy: "I mean, IF the Relay Explodes. But that shouldn't happen. I mean, it MIGHT not. Probably won't happen. I want this to inspire people and give them hope after all."
Shepard: "So I die, the basic nature of the diversity of life is changed, I MIGHT be able to control the Reapers, and the Relays might kill all my friends."
Starboy: "No no, your friends will be fine. In the Jungle!"
Shepard: "JUNGLE?! Where the hell did a Jungle come into this!?"
Starboy: "Oh, that was fated from the very beginning. No matter what goes down here your friends will be safe and sound in a jungle in the middle of nowhere, where your two Dextro-based friends will be doomed."
Shepard: "That's a pretty ****ty thing to do to me."
Starboy: "I kinda agree on that, but I don't have the option to change things. I have to just follow the retarded path set out for me. That's why my Reapers, who I control, are still killing your forces even while I'm trying to convince you that we're BFFs."
Shepard: "Yeah, I was wondering about that too, but curiously unable to ask you about it."
Starboy: "Mmm hm. Oh, and you'd better make a choice soon. If you wait too long, you lose."
Shepard: "The fleet will be destroyed if I don't pick something?"
Starboy: "No, YOU lose. Like, the screen goes red and it says 'Mission Failure.' The Fleet might be strong enough to win, but we can't just wait and see."
Shepard: "Wow, that's a shame. Hey, why am I so ambivalent about this now? Don't I usually get fired up about things?"
Starboy: "Dude, there's some SERIOUS **** pumping into the air around here. Like, the kind of **** that's not legal. Why do you think there's so many trippy colors and a glowing ghost child and circular logic that only makes sense if you're high?"
Shepard: "Sweet. I'm hungry, man, you have anything to eat?"
Starboy: "Bro, you walked past my snack piles on the way in, you should have grabbed something!"
Shepard: "Ah, right, you guys eat corpses to get what you need to make babies. Gotta say, our way of making more of us is a lot more enjoyable than your way. Enough chit-chat, let me pick one of these three colors and let's get to screwing a galaxy."

[BlueStorm83]

Massa FX wrote...

I have a hard time envisioning an artificial intelligence exhibiting human emotions like being egoist and jealous of organics. There are “ones” and “zeroes” going through his cybernetic brain computing in logical algorithms…I’ll give you that the results of this “thought process” might be “bonkers: given the original input and/or flawed logic, but he/it will only act on a logical equations. It is a machine after all.
 
Now to the more practical issue: isn’t it more difficult to destroy every single piece of reaper technology scattered throughout the galaxy than simply destroy the source?  Destroying what I’d like to call the “shining blob”, would get rid of its nefarious influence while still keeping and taking advantage of its technology.  Simple, neat, no mess, Shepard lives and becomes legend.

I'm puzzling this out as I type.

A rogue AI means it's not functioning as designed. It may not have conventional emotions, but in the ME Universe it sure seems rogue AI's become emotional by using flawed logic. (Citadel rogue AI and the pre EDI rogue AI)

I agree it's more logical to just destroy the rogue AI. But would that be enough to ensure the cycle breaks? <shrug>

Reaper technology is far more advanced than each cycle's organic intelligence. Organics are 'led' by the Catalyst to find technology they are not ready for. By destroying that technology it puts all organics on their original path. They have a chance to evolve naturally.

As for Shepard, I hope he/she lives. But live or die, Reaper tech doesn't belong to organics. It's placed there to further the Catalysts illogical plans to reset the cycle. It's the devils carrot. Eat the carrot and he owns you. Use the technology and you restart the cycle.

---  ROFL, the Devil's Carrot!  BRILLIANT!  At work, we sometimes sell these horrible plants, I forget what they're named, but we call them Devil's Lettuce.  They're nothing but a mass of RAZOR sharp leaves.  I've sliced my hands open more than once trying to load a customer's car with them.

I do agree that removing all Reaper Tech to get rid of the Reapers would be worth it, and even make a kind of sense.  But at the same time, any leaps and bounds that we made that were not DIRECTLY involved with Reaper Tech should be fine.  For instance, keep the Geth alive, but they revert to their pre-Reaper Upgrade selves.  Still friendly, but WE, and not I.  EDI would lose her Reaper-Tech integrated BODY, but would go back to being in the Normandy.  She and Joker can still be TOGETHER, but they can't really BE Together.

That would be bittersweet and hopeful.  Eventually making her a new body would be possible, and the Geth COULD evolve on their own, but it would be difficult, and take a while.

[Redbelle]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- Shepard: "I need to stop the reapers!"
Starboy: "You have the power to do so. You can destroy all Synthetic life."
Shepard: "I can?"
Starboy: "Yeah, sure. I mean, maybe. You might die too. You're Synthetic, right? I mean, mostly? Yeah, you'll die too."
Shepard: "You don't seem to sure."
Starboy: "No, really, like, all Synthetic Life will die if you shoot that pipe there. You, and the Geth, and the Reapers, and the Locust, and the Covenant, and those Mario Brothers too."
Shepard: "Yeah, most of those are videogame characters. That's not really synthetic life."
Starboy: "No, they are. I've seen them on the TV. Reviewers are always talking about their Artificial Intelligence."
Shepard: "Right, but that's just technical jargon. They're not really intelligent. They're not even Virtually Intelligent."
Starboy: "Huh."
Shepard: "Yeah."
(Long Pause.)
Shepard: "So, really, destroying the pipe will kill the Geth?"
Starboy: "Probably. I mean, it's a pipe. What else would it do?"
Shepard: "Pipes don't usually destroy Synthetic Life."
Starboy: "This one will. Trust me. If you want to, you can control the Reapers instead."
Shepard: "Cool! how do I do that?"
Starboy: "Take this implement, and insert it into that slot there."
Shepard: "This is a fork, and that's an electrical socket. That'll kill me."
Starboy: "Right. But then you'll control the Reapers."
Shepard: "Okay, I'll bite. How can I control the Reapers when I'm dead?"
Starboy: "That's how it worked for everyone else. Like Saren, and The Illusive Man."
Shepard: "Close. They wanted to control the Reapers, and THEN they died."
Starboy: "Exactly, control blah blah, yadda yadda, dead."
Shepard: "I'll pass on that. Any other options?"
Starboy: "Well, since you're SUPER good at this all, I'll let you have the super secret option: We can BLEND all your organics with the Synthetics."
Shepard: "In a blender, right?"
Starboy: "Right! I mean, no. That's dumb, what would make you think that? (nervous chuckle.)"
Shepard: "Because I've seen your guys doing that before."
Starboy: "Those guys? We're not with them. We don't want to blend people with Synthetics. I mean, what? No, we're not about that. But since that's what you've wanted all along, I'll let you have it."
Shepard: "Yeah, that's not what I wanted all along. That's what the Reapers wanted all along. That's why they were sticking people on Eden Prime onto the Dragons' Teeth and turning them into Husks."
Starboy: "Dragons... what? Nope, I don't think that was us. That must have been you. Yeah. So really, pick Synthesis."
Shepard: "Quick question before I pick, when you take things, and synthesize something new out of them, what is that new thing? Like, what would you classify it as."
Starboy: "Synthetic. Why- oh, crap."
Shepard: "Yeah. So my choices are to either doom Synthetic Life in general including me, doom Organic Life in general including me, or control the Reapers... after I'm dead."
Starboy: "Pretty much. Sorry bro. OH! And the Mass Relays will be destroyed."
Shepard: "Destroyed? That's not good. I mean, I destroyed a Mass Relay once before. It did NOT end well for any planets near by. No sir, it did not. Those things kinda, well, blow up. Bad."
Starboy: "Right, but... this way they won't?"
Shepard: "That sounded like a question."
Starboy: "Yeah, everyone should be fine. I mean, besides, you know."
Shepard: "Besides what?"
Starboy: "Well, that fleet near Earth. They'll be stuck there if they don't get blown up when the Realy explodes."
Shepard: "But you said-"
Starboy: "I mean, IF the Relay Explodes. But that shouldn't happen. I mean, it MIGHT not. Probably won't happen. I want this to inspire people and give them hope after all."
Shepard: "So I die, the basic nature of the diversity of life is changed, I MIGHT be able to control the Reapers, and the Relays might kill all my friends."
Starboy: "No no, your friends will be fine. In the Jungle!"
Shepard: "JUNGLE?! Where the hell did a Jungle come into this!?"
Starboy: "Oh, that was fated from the very beginning. No matter what goes down here your friends will be safe and sound in a jungle in the middle of nowhere, where your two Dextro-based friends will be doomed."
Shepard: "That's a pretty ****ty thing to do to me."
Starboy: "I kinda agree on that, but I don't have the option to change things. I have to just follow the retarded path set out for me. That's why my Reapers, who I control, are still killing your forces even while I'm trying to convince you that we're BFFs."
Shepard: "Yeah, I was wondering about that too, but curiously unable to ask you about it."
Starboy: "Mmm hm. Oh, and you'd better make a choice soon. If you wait too long, you lose."
Shepard: "The fleet will be destroyed if I don't pick something?"
Starboy: "No, YOU lose. Like, the screen goes red and it says 'Mission Failure.' The Fleet might be strong enough to win, but we can't just wait and see."
Shepard: "Wow, that's a shame. Hey, why am I so ambivalent about this now? Don't I usually get fired up about things?"
Starboy: "Dude, there's some SERIOUS **** pumping into the air around here. Like, the kind of **** that's not legal. Why do you think there's so many trippy colors and a glowing ghost child and circular logic that only makes sense if you're high?"
Shepard: "Sweet. I'm hungry, man, you have anything to eat?"
Starboy: "Bro, you walked past my snack piles on the way in, you should have grabbed something!"
Shepard: "Ah, right, you guys eat corpses to get what you need to make babies. Gotta say, our way of making more of us is a lot more enjoyable than your way. Enough chit-chat, let me pick one of these three colors and let's get to screwing a galaxy."

ROFLMAO

[LadyMarisa]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

*snip*

LOL

Ok, What I got from that was Hudson and the other guy were tripping when they locked themselves in a room to write the ending and didn't share with the rest of the team. So this whole controversy and awful (artful) ending could have been avoided if Bioware had stricter drug testing policies.

Modifié par LadyMarisa, 12 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...



I'm pretty sure the relay's aren't exploding in the manner of the arrival due to the energy release that took place before the relays went kaboom.

My thinking on this. Relays have to produce massive amounts of energy to relay a ship from one point in the galaxy to the other. From my playthroughs it would seem that relays can be programmed to shoot to any other relay in the galaxy, hence the distance each relay can shoot towards is variable. Distance demands the amount of energy output be variable to reach the furtherest relay and get to the closest relays. I have no idea what sort of energy build up os going on but more on that later.

The Arrival saw a massive asteroid hit the relay, the mass was big and the kinetic energy it had built up was also big. The relay was unable to handle the type of energy being transferred into it. This, on top of the damage to it's structure, made holding onto that energy destrucitve when it finally got to a point where the energy escaped the relay's containment. critically, no release of energy was observed prior to the explosion. The relay just held and held till it hit a point where its energy storage was overwhelmed.

In the end of ME3, the relays were building up their own unique form of energy, to a point where they overloaded, however as they overloaded they shot the majority of the energy build up out too the next relay where the process repeated to the next right up to the last relay where, I have to speculate, the ppl in and around that relay are either a bit screwed cause the relay has nowhere to shoot it's energy, or fires it off into space somewhere.

I'm basing this idea on what a writer said in an interview when he said that the relays did not go boom and destroy the galaxy. However......... Youtube has shown a picture of the galaxy map, measured the radius of the light and pointed out that these events were so huge that they covered a massive amount of space. I'm at a loss to explain how such an energy release that could cover that much distance in so short a space of time is possible when my theory hinges on an energy release prior to structural failure of an overstressed relay.

There's also the codex Desperate Measures that says a ruptured relay will ruin all terrestrial worlds in a system.  And the Flow Chart in the Final Hours that states what the Prothean VI was supposed to say-that the Crucible ushers in a Galactic Dark Ages. 

Just seems the relays do at least rupture and when I looked back, the Destroy version does have a significant explosion.  The Citadel/Crucible before shooting out a beam to the relays also creates a huge wave of energy or something that vaporizes reapers it's shown to hit-and that's the good Destroy ending.  When the beam hits the relay, the thing definitely is ripped apart and it doesn't look like it's doing it's normal release of energy.  You do see that structural failure which would have to be characterized as a rupture.

I saw that youtube video as well and if you just look at it the video is of the galaxy, and it shows the energy overwhelming each star system-that makes whatever it is pretty huge. 

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...


So Shep can potentially survive the destroy ending. Edi can potentially survive the destroy ending.........I'm at a loss to explain this when the Cat stated Shep and Synthetic life, i.e. Edi would stop.

Either we're back to the Cat's lying, or

he's making outragously over exaggerated statements of delusion despite the fact he has no idea what will happen, or

someone dropped the ball when it came to the programming to reflect our choices on how they play out, or

Edi's new body defies the Cat's definition of Synthetic life. (though this raises an issue of Edi's computer core no longer being neccessary if Edi's in the body, as my understanding was that Edi was remotely controlling that body from her mainframe).

Basically some of the reasons why any normal person (ie Shepard) would ask a few questions at least.

Like, "hey glow boy, does that mean I will die?"  To which the star kid would have to say, "well yes you would die, but not if the god player plays MP and gets that EMS thingy up high enough.  Then you'd be a charcoal blob at the end.  Other than that this means you would die but maybe or maybe not due to choosing Destroy.  Maybe because you will be stupid enough to walk towards the tube which will explode in your face.  You know, because guns only work at point blank range."

Or, "hey ******.  What does that mean as far as EDI, the geth, all people with implants, all synthetic tech?  Does this just mean reapers or everything else?" 

Of course at this time Shepard is just so awed at the Catalyst and his super intelligence, that s/he can't say a thing.  The most scintillating thing said by Shepard is, "I...don't know."

[3DandBeyond]

XXVI wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Though the Forest Fire analogy is a little off- Forest Fires actually renew the land.  In fact, the Giant Sequoia's pinecones can't drop their seed unless intense heat - the kind of heat that only a forest fire can cause - burns them open.  The Giant Sequoia almost went extinct when we stopped putting forest fires out, since it couldn't replenish itself.  Now that we let the fires burn, Forests are actually healthier than ever.

This is exactly where I was headed with my theory!

The benefits of forest fires are circumstantial. Many parks perform "controlled burns" to prevent excess growth and clutter. Without the periodic controlled burns, 1) New trees can't grow, and 2) The risk of an Uncontrolled forest fire is drastically increased.

Substitute "controlled burn" with "Reaper Harvest" and "trees" with "Organic civilizations", and voila!

Thanks for the help refining the theory. This is why the internet is great.

I tend to believe the idea (from the kid) that advanced organics are removed to make room for others to grow and advance is insane on his part.  The "kid" and his reapers leave tech around to advance organics along a path and within their needed time frame.  It is more like fattening up animals that will be slaughtered.  Sovereign says they do things on the path laid out by the reapers.

This is very unlike what is done in a natural (non-harvested) forest.  I believe the idea of culling is correct, but I don't see it as something that is done for beneficial reasons as is the case in a forest.  I think the reason is way more selfish. 

Consider some the terms the reapers use.  Harvesting (you harvest for food).  Sovereign says they are there to destroy advanced organics as does Harbinger.  In ME1 and ME2, they keep organic goo in canisters and pots.  Consider this is somewhat like animals do when they kill something they don't intend to eat right away-they may drag it to a place more convenient for them for later.  Organics are ascended into reaper form-actually (and I cannot remember where and who) there have been humans that thanked the animal whose life they took in order to feed.  They are others said that such an animal was being put to a higher purpose.

I don't think they use organic content as some type of traditional food, but reapers are not just machines.  They have an organic component and that probably must be maintained.

I also think they need organics to be advanced to a certain point in order for them to be useful nourishment or replenishment (not necessarily food). 

I know I've said this before and it seems so stupid, but the reapers mostly look like cuttlefish.  There are constant references throughout the game as to fish.  James talks about shooting fish in a barrel several times as do some others.  The Citadel in ME3 when you look out a window really looks like an aquarium with the shuttles looking like fish.

I think that the analogy that best fits is that organics are like fish on fish farms.  They must be fattened up (advanced) to a certain state before they are worth harvesting.  Those that are not advanced enough are "thrown back".

I do think they were trying to be funny with this, but then I think they partly went with it.  Consider that deer in the US are harvested in order to actually keep their numbers more managable and to "save" the deer population.  Food animals are often herded into certain areas for better grazing and/or rendering later on.  That's what the relays do.  They keep people within certain areas of the galaxy. 

And the reaper tech left lying around means organics are less likely to learn a lot of stuff on their own so they won't become too "fat" to harvest.

I think there may be some quasi-religious overtones to this, saying the kid and reapers don't want organics to advance too far or along their own path-kind of like not tasting of the forbidden fruit.  Don't want to get too religious here, but much like God in Genesis says there are certain things you can eat, but one thing you cannot.  The kid is saying there are things you can know and do, but one thing you can't.  He doesn't want people to become gods like him (as he sees himself).  Only he is allowed to have synthetic AI pets.  He's evil, he lies, now he's "feeling" or has realized he is threatened.

But again I think they tried to put so much into 10 minutes-so many different rambling themes, that anyone can find any meaning there. 

The forest imagery could be and is just as correct as my fish one or a religious one, because I think the ending is all over the place.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 juin 2012 - 12:59 .

[XXVI]

I'm pretty sure the cuttlefish design has more to do with the inspiration from the H. P. Lovecraft Mythos and Caliban's description of his unknowable, terrible god as "Many armed as the cuttlefish" in Shakespeare's "The Tempest". I seem to remember reading somewhere that the writing and design teams found inspiration for the Reapers in both of these sources.

Edit: Not trying to argue.

Modifié par XXVI, 13 juin 2012 - 01:14 .

[3DandBeyond]

XXVI wrote...

I'm pretty sure the cuttlefish design has more to do with the inspiration from the H. P. Lovecraft Mythos and Caliban's description of his unknowable, terrible god as "Many armed as the cuttlefish" in Shakespeare's "The Tempest". I seem to remember reading somewhere that the writing and design teams found inspiration for the Reapers in both of these sources.

Edit: Not trying to argue.

Yes and so is the mad gods can dream statement on the derelict reaper based on Lovecraft. 

Well of course it could have to do with that and I'm not saying it doesn't, but they still do look like cuttlefish and there are a lot of fish references.  The point I was making is that there are way too many things that could apply in some way to the ending, which again means it's way to nebulous and ambiguous.  That and it does seem someone is fixated on fish.

The thing is the writers/devs liked a lot of different things and tried to add elements from those things-Princess Bride, Babylon5, Lovecraft, Matrix, and so on ad nauseum.  What fans wanted was Mass Effect at the end, not 2001, meshed with, the Matrix, Deus ex, and all the rest.

The game lent itself to a much simpler but actually more Lovecraftian or even Babylon 5 type of thing than this pile of dreck.  Funny in B5 there's even a character named Morden.

Not trying to argue either.  I was merely stating also that seeing the analogy of doing something similar as is done to prevent wildfires is actually enforcing the idea that the reapers and the kid are working from an idea of doing good.  I just don't see that.  Sovereign doesn't seem to have particularly good motives at all.  But then the kid comes along and tries to assert that the reapers and he are there to help.  But, no.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 juin 2012 - 01:29 .

[XXVI]

Out of curiosity, have you or anyone else here played "The Longest Journey"? I found a lot of thematic parallels, especially in the ending.