23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

XXVI wrote...

Out of curiosity, have you or anyone else here played "The Longest Journey"? I found a lot of thematic parallels, especially in the ending.

Actually, having now looked at the plot and all about that there are many similarities.  If I get this right, in the end the protagonist becomes the guardian.  Many people here have found indications that that was what was intended for Shepard, but due to time everything related to this was chopped.  Some say Shepard was supposed to become the Catalyst, which personally I'd still hate.

The whole Catalyst idea has been turned into crap.  A catalyst actually helps something happen or causes it.  This catalyst is throwing his hands up and says he can't do anything and isn't doing what he clearly has been doing (killing people), Shepard needs to do stuff, and the crucible changed his awesome inspirational solution.

First of all, a crucible is a kind of testing ground or it's a kind of bowl or container where things get all mashed together and melted down.  The latter definition seems to be what they used for this game. 

[sdinc009]

Archonsg wrote...

@redbelle
You have to wonder though, that if not for the controversy, could Mass Effect 3 have sold far far more copies from not only high praise from the press but also from recommendations and word of mouth selling by the very fans they royally pissed offed?

Taking myself as an example, I know i had influenced at least 7 others to buy ME2 and had initially spoke highly of ME3 till I hit the ending. Then, it was a case of me talking someone else out of buying ME3. 4 people to be precise, since the other 3 had already bought theirs.

Perhaps I am biased, in that I am a fan, so do think that Mass Effect 3 could have done much better if not for the negative fan reaction.

@Archonsg
If the ending of ME 3 was done properly this game would have been insanely profitable. I for one would have been telling everyone to buy it and the previous games if they've never played it as I'm sure everyone else would have. Not only that, but Bioware would have been able to sell all they're extra DLC instead of giving it away for free and we would have bought it all. But, as thing stand now they can't even give away they're products. I've yet to download the free DLC and have no intention of doing so while this full blown retard excuse for an ending exists. And the worst thing is, is that they clearly can fix it. If they and pro-enders like the ending, fine the 3 pretty color ending can stay, just give us a DLC that provides different options at the end so those of us (you know like 99% of us) can get the proper ending befitting the story we've come to love. This is a simple fix yet, for some reason, they want to be difficult

[Redbelle]

You know, in final fantasy X Tidus get's upset that Yuna has to die to beat Sin and, at one point, says something along the lines of he wants Sin beaten and Yuna to live, He wants everything.

Waka repsonds that Tidus is being childish, since everyone in that world knows you have to sacrifice something to get what you want.

Que Tidus and co from that point on smashing the system that created the worlds spiral of death, Beating Sin and keeping Yuna alive while it happened. Childish? Those were the actions of a hero standing up to make sure that events unfolded how he desired them too.

And of course he also knew throughout that it would end him too. That was and still is a bitter pill to swallow but giving that world a future again, along with everything else done in that world made, what has been viewed in ME3 as an aweful ending, in FFX became a tragic ending, and I'm not saying that in a bad way. The hero loses his or her future but gives everyone else there own. No building a house with Tali, but at least there would be a house. No blue babies with Liara, but at least there would be babies. No more boxing with Vega only to wind up in a sweaty heap on the deck to find all that steroid usage has left him underwhelming in the trouser department......... No......wait a minute, that last one was me, not ME3.

Modifié par Redbelle, 13 juin 2012 - 04:33 .

[otreblA_SNAKE_ITA]

3DandBeyond wrote...

otreblA_SNAKE_ITA wrote...

About Shepard: it doesn't amaze me to see that he's a human like all the other people! The choice you make at the end of the game determines if you have been indoctrinated or not (that also explains why Shepard wakes up and survive only if you choose to kill the Reapers)

About the child: I didn't like him too, it was..."empty"? "Predictable"? Anyway, this is a personal point of view, probably hundreds of players liked his presence (really??? xD)

Anyway I agree with you: if IT is real, it was not done well and it is unsatisfying...I hope that Bioware will do wonders with the Extended Cut DLC...

PS: I usually eat children

Well I think I speak for a lot of us that none of the 3 choices is a good one, depending upon how you played the game and your Shepard.  They are equally repulsive.  And if your EMS is not high enough and you didn't play multi-player, you won't get that Shepard lives ending or may even see the Earth get vaporized.  I don't see this as some rejection of indoctrination.

No, it's not surprising for Shepard to be human, but for a major part of the game to be based on Shepard falling down and failing character-wise is hard to overcome.  If however there had been some indoctrination mid--game where Shepard overcame it and then raced headlong into a fight, well that would have been amazing, in my opinion.  I've said it before and will say it here, the game was almost always about redemption or the lack of it.  I'd want to see Shepard redeem him/herself in order for me to accept IT.

I do agree that of the 3 choices it seems to be the kid and the reapers (based on a lot of what Sovereign and Saren said and what the reapers are) think Synthesis is the best choice.  Of course, it's repulsive, but I think all 3 choices are.  And the idea that Shepard gasps because and only because of EMS (and MP) is ridiculous-I mean ridiculous that someone wrote that and thought it made sense.

I haven't seen too many people (even those that don't dislike the ending) say they like the kid.

As for the "real" kid at the beginning.  His presence is contrived and unnecessary.  In fact, it really detracts a bit from the feeling of the whole set piece.  We don't need to be told Shepard cares about Earth and the people there, but we've always known that Shepard feels the weight of a whole lot of people on his/her shoulders.  The galaxy and Shepard's friends and crewmates really matter.  The insertion of this kid is just like he was thrown in there as the supposed "face" Shepard puts on the whole thing, like Mordin had with his nephew.  But, Shepard didn't need a face put on it and players sure didn't.

Then, putting this kid in the nightmares was really unnecessary.  Those dreams would have been way more frightening without him.  I just found him annoying.

You eat children.  Ha ha.  This is the first thing ever that made me really hate a kid that isn't supposed to be the devil necessarily.

I agree about the child, nothing to add about! 
If the IT would be real, he would be much more important...but I personally wouldn't like him anyway...

You talk about mini-games about the indoctrination, but I don't agree...it's like if Shepard said at the end of the game "There's something wrong here!"...that would have destroyed the "indoctrination process" made by Bioware (if IT is real, obv) and our identification with Shepard risked to be nullified...but my speech is only a theoretical construct and I agree with you: Bioware could make things better and right now the game is not complete. The ending is almost nonsense...

PS: I hate that kid so much that when he died at the beginning of the game, I was happy! 

[Benchpress610]

Redbelle wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@redbelle
You have to wonder though, that if not for the controversy, could Mass Effect 3 have sold far far more copies from not only high praise from the press but also from recommendations and word of mouth selling by the very fans they royally pissed offed?

Taking myself as an example, I know i had influenced at least 7 others to buy ME2 and had initially spoke highly of ME3 till I hit the ending. Then, it was a case of me talking someone else out of buying ME3. 4 people to be precise, since the other 3 had already bought theirs.

Perhaps I am biased, in that I am a fan, so do think that Mass Effect 3 could have done much better if not for the negative fan reaction.

I think your experience is a common occurrence amongst most fans. Of course, I don’t have any statistics to back it up, but from anecdotal accounts that’s pretty much what has happened. I have influenced at least three friends not to buy the game at least until the EC comes out. My usual answer when asked about the games is: “IMO the game is brilliant, but the end is very disappointing”  

For me its been the opposite. I've told them to buy it as not buying will leave everything other than the ending unresolved. The Rannoch war, the genophage all, imo, deserve to be played through as not playing them will leave over 5 years of following those plots unresolved.

If asked about the ending I'll usually say that it's completely up to them how they take it. Just try to avoid the youtube vids before going in so you can experience it on it's own merits.

Oh, I never told anyone “don’t buy the game”. I just gave my opinion based on my own experience. I had to be honest if someone asked for my opinion. I wasn’t gonna say: “yeah, go ahead buy it, it’s great” because that’s not the whole story. I didn’t want a friend coming back to me like: “Hey you told me to buy this game, but didn’t tell me the ending sucks...gee thanks!”… I related my experience which was pure enjoyment until the last ten minutes. The game was great, but the end ruined the whole experience.  The decision to buy it or not was entirely theirs.

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@redbelle
You have to wonder though, that if not for the controversy, could Mass Effect 3 have sold far far more copies from not only high praise from the press but also from recommendations and word of mouth selling by the very fans they royally pissed offed?

Taking myself as an example, I know i had influenced at least 7 others to buy ME2 and had initially spoke highly of ME3 till I hit the ending. Then, it was a case of me talking someone else out of buying ME3. 4 people to be precise, since the other 3 had already bought theirs.

Perhaps I am biased, in that I am a fan, so do think that Mass Effect 3 could have done much better if not for the negative fan reaction.

@Archonsg
If the ending of ME 3 was done properly this game would have been insanely profitable. I for one would have been telling everyone to buy it and the previous games if they've never played it as I'm sure everyone else would have. Not only that, but Bioware would have been able to sell all they're extra DLC instead of giving it away for free and we would have bought it all. But, as thing stand now they can't even give away they're products. I've yet to download the free DLC and have no intention of doing so while this full blown retard excuse for an ending exists. And the worst thing is, is that they clearly can fix it. If they and pro-enders like the ending, fine the 3 pretty color ending can stay, just give us a DLC that provides different options at the end so those of us (you know like 99% of us) can get the proper ending befitting the story we've come to love. This is a simple fix yet, for some reason, they want to be difficult

They backed themselves into a corner with it and it takes a truly big person to say, "you know what, I've said a lot of things and made a lot of mistakes.  It's time to fix all that."  They've failed at so much, but one is in misunderstanding the ability to forgive.  True contrition is very appealing.  We do live in a world where people are set up on pedestals to be knocked down off of them.  But, we also live in a world where true humility and apology are appreciated and embraced.  It must however come from the heart.  It would have to be more than an "I'm sorry now get over it and buy some stuff" kind of thing.  And throwing out "free" MP DLC that's used to get more money isn't it.

It would have to recognize that truly intelligent discussion has been had and real emotion, care, and concern given by ardent fans and that this kind of input is not to be trampled upon.  They do need at this point in time to say something, anything just to start the process.  The fact that we keep commenting and keep appealing to them is an indication of just how attached we are to something they created and then messed with.  We aren't demanding they speak up, but we see it's in their best interest to say something.  But not anything along the lines of what they've already said.

I also think that somewhere along the way they stopped meaning anything they said or they just didn't talk to each other.  Casey Hudson and others said there was no canon in the game, and the story was as much fan's as it was the dev's.  He also said that Shepard was molded by players.  I am paraphrasing all this.  Ray Muzyka when developing ME2, said Shepard was really mainly only one Shepard and not customizable.  He seemed to suggest that unlike in other games, Shepard really had little choice and the only choices were mainly tactical.  So it's not about choices relating to endings-it's about choices determining how you get to the same endings.  This is quite unlike my thinking about Shepard.


This is an IGN interview   http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p1.html:

Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a
first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and
you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about
defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass
Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined
character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice
matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined
character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's
intentional.


-----
I guess I took them more at their word when they said not choices were to be canon-not your LI (yeah, right), not any decision on any one plot line.  And in many ways they weren't because every one of them led to the same ending.

[mxfox408]

Chris Priestly wrote...

We appreciate everyone’s feedback about Mass Effect 3 and want you to know that we are listening. Active discussions about the ending are more than welcome here, and the team will be reviewing it for feedback and responding when we can. Please note, we want to give people time to experience the game so while we can’t get into specifics right now, we will be able to address some of your questions once more people have had time to complete the game. In the meantime, we’d like to ask that you keep the non-spoiler areas of our forums and our social media channels spoiler free.
 
We understand there is a lot of debate on the Mass Effect 3 ending and we will be more than happy to engage in healthy discussions once more people get to experience the game. We are listening to all of your feedback.

In the meantime, let's give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether you loved the ME3 ending or didn't or you just have a lot of questions, he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had while playing games. What was your favorite moment?

no apparently you guys are not listening. extended cut a cop out and failure to admit that you guys effed up.

[Massa FX]

Shepard's frame of mind by Priority Earth is pretty shaken. Because:

1 - Still dealing with loss of Ashely/Kaiden from ME1

2 - Dealing with loss of squad members (if any) from ME2 and dealing with choices made in ME2

3 - Dealing with Batarian loss due to actions in Arrival (no real win scenario)

4 - Dealing with her superiors and everyone else outright saying
Everything and Everyone is depending on YOU Shepard. Only YOU can save
us! Only You! Just You. We are waiting for you to succeed so we can win
the war effort.

5 - Dealing with each race's stupid "needs": Turian wants Patriarch. Krogan wants cure. Salarian being themselves. Asari being themselves. Every Tom/Dick/Harry needing something to help them on the Citadel before they'll help Shepard. N7 missions. TIM. Lawson and Sanctuary. etc... etc...

6 - Shepard dealing with crew issues. <I need you Shepard. Come talk with me, beat me up, or
bolster my spirits. Make me feel better Shepard. Mentor me! Give me hope.>

7 - The War itself

8 - No sleep! Why? Nightmare about chasing the dead kid and hearing voices whispering in her dreams <IT> I deal with sleep deprivation pretty often and the depression that results can be devastating. On the job, in private life, daily living, just getting up in the morning is difficult to deal with. Can't imagine being a military leader during the biggest war of my time and needing my "game" on 100% of the time.

9 - No adult way to relieve stress until the night before Earth battle <If you know what I mean>. Dancing and
drinking in the bar doesn't cut it.

10 - Loss of Thessia was a huge blow. We see and feel Shepard's guilt and disappointment in failure. The scene with Shepard leaning on the wall ignoring the voice command klaxon breaks my heart.

11 - Shepard feels responsible for everyone in the galaxy. And if IT is true, the catalyst is sublimely adding to that burden by making Shep feel the weight of the galaxy bearing down. Sucking away confidence and hope. <catalyst/reapers have multiple cycles of experience in pushing hopelessness on those they are harvesting. Shepard resists for years, but is only human>

12 - Doubting her/his humanity after reading about Project Lazarus

13 - Being arrested and the hearing. Then being under House Arrest (6 months of doing what?) and loosing the Normandy.

14 - Not one of ME1, or ME2 squadmates, friends, crew, or supporters visiting during the house arrest period. That had to rub.

All this adds up to why Shep isn't being Shepard at the end game, IMO. I hope its all a bad dream, but now that I've cooled down, read through the forums, watched the youtube vids, vented and vented again, fumed, felt sick to the stomach, and played the game again... I can understand Shepard's frame of mind from writer's perspective. At least I can understand the "why" behind Shepards uncharacteristic defeatism. Especially under the IT criterion.

Modifié par Massa FX, 13 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[3DandBeyond]

Here's an interesting tidbit. In ME2 at the beginning, in a log Miranda says that they used bio-synthetic fusion. That sounds like a little bit more than simple implants.

[3DandBeyond]

Massa FX wrote...

snipped....

All this adds up to why Shep isn't being Shepard at the end game, IMO. I hope its all a bad dream, but now that I've cooled down, read through the forums, watched the youtube vids, vented and vented again, fumed, felt sick to the stomach, and played the game again... I can understand Shepard's frame of mind from writer's perspective. At least I can understand the "why" behind Shepards uncharacteristic defeatism. Especially under the IT criterion.

While I can of course agree that on a real level a person would be fatigued at best, this wasn't a game that overwhelmingly adhered to realism.  Shepard being alive at all is a debatable issue, but I for one allowed for the possibility.  So in agreeing with the writers that Shepard could possibly spring back to life in ME2, I must disagree with them that this same person would all of a sudden turn into a blathering mess.  That's not the Shepard they and I built.

Yes, Shepard has been through a gristmill.  Of course.  But, the writers set that up so that at the end the players had some weak-kneed hero to deal with.  They wanted us to see some defeated shell of a person.  Well, they owed more to Shepard than that.

I don't at all disagree with you, I am just saying that true defeatism would have made more sense if Shepard just had the option to make no choice.  Instead, choose Destroy, and Shepard all of a sudden springs back to life and fast walks towards the thing that goes boom and will either kill him/her or not (if the god player plays MP).

When confronted with any choice but an I win and you totally lose assets-hole, laying down and bleeding out makes more sense.  Given the kid's scenarios everything is going to hell anyway, I sure ain't gonna help it get there.

[Massa FX]

3DandBeyond wrote...

When confronted with any choice but an I win and you totally lose assets-hole, laying down and bleeding out makes more sense.  Given the kid's scenarios everything is going to hell anyway, I sure ain't gonna help it get there.

I've read about a fourth choice of "do nothing" and watch the fleet destroyed on forums somewhere. This option bothers me, but does allow for a new ME game in a future cycle. I can imagine Shep refusing to act or move. A tube shoots up out of the floor. A keeper comes and drags Shep into the tube. Shep is processed while the freak AI watches. I imagine Anderson's body was already in the food processor below during the Shepard/AI conversation. This cycle is systemically harvested. The End.

If I'd seen this fourth choice scenario in the game, I'd have literally thrown my Xbox360 out the window. The 3 choices presented made me sick as it is. LOL!

[3DandBeyond]

Massa FX wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

When confronted with any choice but an I win and you totally lose assets-hole, laying down and bleeding out makes more sense.  Given the kid's scenarios everything is going to hell anyway, I sure ain't gonna help it get there.

I've read about a fourth choice of "do nothing" and watch the fleet destroyed on forums somewhere. This option bothers me, but does allow for a new ME game in a future cycle. I can imagine Shep refusing to act or move. A tube shoots up out of the floor. A keeper comes and drags Shep into the tube. Shep is processed while the freak AI watches. I imagine Anderson's body was already in the food processor below during the Shepard/AI conversation. This cycle is systemically harvested. The End.

If I'd seen this fourth choice scenario in the game, I'd have literally thrown my Xbox360 out the window. The 3 choices presented made me sick as it is. LOL!

I'm not saying it's the ultimate choice, but considering that a good many people (myself included) at one point just saw no choice as a real choice, absent any rejection scenario, the possibility is clear.  And I don't mean some additional things like you have seen.  I just mean I look at every bit of evidence presented to me.  Shepard looks at the war assets list and it says chances of winning are even.  EVEN.  That doesn't mean people have no chance to win absent the intervention of the crucible.  It means there's a chance and even a good chance.

The kid's choices are no chance choices.  They fundamentally change life and/or destroy it.  Also, absent any information beyond what Shepard is given the unwillingness to act becomes more logical than acting.

It's like being given the choice of which child of yours to shoot in the head.  And you are given a gun that won't work unless you use it to shoot one of them in the head.  You can't possibly make that choice. What's the alternative.  Maybe they will both die, but if you don't know that for a fact and are not allowed to ask then the natural human condition would be one of paralysis. 

If instead you are fully aware that not making a choice will mean something worse will certainly happen, then the choice must be made.  But, it's not a sacrifice, because sacrifices are willingly chosen as something that works for the good.

But, there's an alternate thought here as well.  Not choosing could have been a flip of the coin.  What if given those even odds in one playthrough, not choosing meant the reapers wiped out everything and won.  But another time it meant people won?   I'm just throwing this out there, because I know a lot of people preferred getting a critical mission failure to making any choice.

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

snipped....

All this adds up to why Shep isn't being Shepard at the end game, IMO. I hope its all a bad dream, but now that I've cooled down, read through the forums, watched the youtube vids, vented and vented again, fumed, felt sick to the stomach, and played the game again... I can understand Shepard's frame of mind from writer's perspective. At least I can understand the "why" behind Shepards uncharacteristic defeatism. Especially under the IT criterion.

While I can of course agree that on a real level a person would be fatigued at best, this wasn't a game that overwhelmingly adhered to realism.  Shepard being alive at all is a debatable issue, but I for one allowed for the possibility.  So in agreeing with the writers that Shepard could possibly spring back to life in ME2, I must disagree with them that this same person would all of a sudden turn into a blathering mess.  That's not the Shepard they and I built.

Yes, Shepard has been through a gristmill.  Of course.  But, the writers set that up so that at the end the players had some weak-kneed hero to deal with.  They wanted us to see some defeated shell of a person.  Well, they owed more to Shepard than that.

I don't at all disagree with you, I am just saying that true defeatism would have made more sense if Shepard just had the option to make no choice.  Instead, choose Destroy, and Shepard all of a sudden springs back to life and fast walks towards the thing that goes boom and will either kill him/her or not (if the god player plays MP).

When confronted with any choice but an I win and you totally lose assets-hole, laying down and bleeding out makes more sense.  Given the kid's scenarios everything is going to hell anyway, I sure ain't gonna help it get there.

Excellent post, although Massa FX points are all valid in real life, this not a psychological novel, it is a sci-fi game. And I keep insisting in the word game. I didn’t like or expect my hero to become a drama queen when it counted the most. I felt cheated when the writers portrayed him that way.  

[Massa FX]

Sometimes developers become just that "a developer". Making games becomes just a job to them. They stop being hard core gamers. They stop being vested players in other games. They loose touch with what makes games fun. Then they start focus testing like crazy because they no longer can tell what's good and what sucks. So the focus testing results influences design... At the same time, "the executives" and "marketing" determine what makes a fun game based on trends and their opinions. At the same time, the Publisher is a force to be reckoned with. They hold the purse strings and they determine (more influence based on their line-up of projects) the ship dates. Developers cave because they need the paycheck. If they don't fall in line they can leave the job or try to fight a very thick brick wall. It's a hard industry to survive in. The 80's and early 90's were (was?) the best time for gaming. The industry was new and developers themselves were also the hardcore game audience. They made games for themselves, their friends and oh that nerd down the street. They pushed boundaries and the creative talent was fierce (although technology was poor).


Not saying anything like this applies to Bio but it happens a lot especially within the last 10 years.

** I neglected to add the distributor. They also push dates and push on the publisher. Missing your ship date could mean you don't get your product to consumers in that quarter. They can be very unforgiving.**

Modifié par Massa FX, 13 juin 2012 - 08:09 .

[Massa FX]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Excellent post, although Massa FX points are all valid in real life, this not a psychological novel, it is a sci-fi game.  

Very true. I am applying RL values to the game. I feel RL emotions while playing it.

[g0tlife]

I can't play the game again, i know what will wait for me at the end. Stupid Bioware

[BlueStorm83]

Massa FX wrote...

Shepard's frame of mind by Priority Earth is pretty shaken. Because:

1 - Still dealing with loss of Ashely/Kaiden from ME1

2 - Dealing with loss of squad members (if any) from ME2 and dealing with choices made in ME2

3 - Dealing with Batarian loss due to actions in Arrival (no real win scenario)

4 - Dealing with her superiors and everyone else outright saying
Everything and Everyone is depending on YOU Shepard. Only YOU can save
us! Only You! Just You. We are waiting for you to succeed so we can win
the war effort.

5 - Dealing with each race's stupid "needs": Turian wants Patriarch. Krogan wants cure. Salarian being themselves. Asari being themselves. Every Tom/Dick/Harry needing something to help them on the Citadel before they'll help Shepard. N7 missions. TIM. Lawson and Sanctuary. etc... etc...

6 - Shepard dealing with crew issues. <I need you Shepard. Come talk with me, beat me up, or
bolster my spirits. Make me feel better Shepard. Mentor me! Give me hope.>

7 - The War itself

8 - No sleep! Why? Nightmare about chasing the dead kid and hearing voices whispering in her dreams <IT> I deal with sleep deprivation pretty often and the depression that results can be devastating. On the job, in private life, daily living, just getting up in the morning is difficult to deal with. Can't imagine being a military leader during the biggest war of my time and needing my "game" on 100% of the time.

9 - No adult way to relieve stress until the night before Earth battle <If you know what I mean>. Dancing and
drinking in the bar doesn't cut it.

10 - Loss of Thessia was a huge blow. We see and feel Shepard's guilt and disappointment in failure. The scene with Shepard leaning on the wall ignoring the voice command klaxon breaks my heart.

11 - Shepard feels responsible for everyone in the galaxy. And if IT is true, the catalyst is sublimely adding to that burden by making Shep feel the weight of the galaxy bearing down. Sucking away confidence and hope. <catalyst/reapers have multiple cycles of experience in pushing hopelessness on those they are harvesting. Shepard resists for years, but is only human>

12 - Doubting her/his humanity after reading about Project Lazarus

13 - Being arrested and the hearing. Then being under House Arrest (6 months of doing what?) and loosing the Normandy.

14 - Not one of ME1, or ME2 squadmates, friends, crew, or supporters visiting during the house arrest period. That had to rub.

All this adds up to why Shep isn't being Shepard at the end game, IMO. I hope its all a bad dream, but now that I've cooled down, read through the forums, watched the youtube vids, vented and vented again, fumed, felt sick to the stomach, and played the game again... I can understand Shepard's frame of mind from writer's perspective. At least I can understand the "why" behind Shepards uncharacteristic defeatism. Especially under the IT criterion.

---  While this does makea  bit of sense, the thing I see is that as the game goes on, Shepard isn't being defeated.  At no point before the end did Shepard seem to be really feeling like he couldn't win.  Telling the dying reaper on Rannoch where he could stick it, getting Kalross to eat Reaper Lilly, being pissed that he lost on Thessia, and then the "This is for Thane, you son of a ****!" moment.  Shepard was building momentum toward a "You can't kill me, ****s!!!" attitude.  If Shepard felt defeated after the Beam hit, he wouldn't have gotten up and hobbled forward with a Magic Carnifex that he picked up during a VERY poorly angled cutscene that made me wonder if my GFX card had broken.  If Shepard felt defeated after the Anderson/TIM scene, he would have laid back and passed out and not heard Hackett's radio signal (which he can't do backwards, once he goes upstairs, BTW.)  Then suddenly Shepard can't muster the strength to say "I don't understand," to the Starboy.

---  Also, we can't act as if Indoctrination Theory is true.  This is a Video Game.  It is a game played through the interface of VIDEO.  If they want us to have an Indoctrination Ending, they are required by the very definition of their medium to show it to us via VIDEO.  Based entirely on what is shown to us, Shepard runs toward a Beam.  He is Injured.  He gets up.  He fights to the beam and appears in a Hallway with dead bodies, Keepers, and Anderson on the radio.  He sees someone controlled by the Reapers kill his friend.  He sees that the Crucible doesn't work.  He goes up an elevator.  He wakes up with the Starboy there.  He hears 14 lines of Dialogue, he can never object or ask for explanation, and then he picks one of 3 color-coded choices.  Then we see the same basic scene play out in Red, Blue, or Green.  Then we see the same identical scene where our friends magically are off of Earth and on the Normandy, which has crashed on an unknown planet in a way that violates the fiction of how the Mass Relays work, after they ran away from a fight that they all saw coming and said "There's no turning back or running away.  It's all or nothing."  Then it ends.  Then no matter what happened, Buzz Aldrin and a child stand in the snow telling a story.  Then maybe, MAYBE, Shepard gasps based entirely on if you have a big fleet and play multiplayer often enough.

Based ENTIRELY on in game information, that sequence of events does not imply indoctrination theory.  It also does not imply that any great amount of work was put into the end of the game.  It ALSO does not imply that they understood the heart and core of the game itself, nor did they understand things that they themselves said about the end of the game.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 13 juin 2012 - 07:41 .

[Massa FX]

Going back to Skyrim until EC comes out. Adios ME fans!

[Benchpress610]

Massa FX wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Excellent post, although Massa FX points are all valid in real life, this not a psychological novel, it is a sci-fi game.  

Very true. I am applying RL values to the game. I feel RL emotions while playing it.

Very good point. Most of us reacted to the game in an emotional lever rather than an intellectual one when first faced with the ending. The emotion most widely described in this forum is confusion, then depression followed by emptiness. Then when one had time to rationalize this whole charade, frustration and rage set in.


Maybe that’s one of the reasons we want our hero to be immune to them.

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Excellent post, although Massa FX points are all valid in real life, this not a psychological novel, it is a sci-fi game.  

Very true. I am applying RL values to the game. I feel RL emotions while playing it.

Very good point. Most of us reacted to the game in an emotional lever rather than an intellectual one when first faced with the ending. The emotion most widely described in this forum is confusion, then depression followed by emptiness. Then when one had time to rationalize this whole charade, frustration and rage set in.


Maybe that’s one of the reasons we want our hero to be immune to them.

I believe this was the exact order of my emotional reactions to the game.  And very good points on the emotional rather than the "intellectual" level of consideration.  Make no mistake up until the ending ME was as much or more a visceral/emotional reaction type of game, for me than any grey matter type of game.  When confronted with decisions, I didn't necessarily wonder what my brain said was the right decision-I always wondered what I felt was the right one.  And then there were moments where I just went with my first reaction-such as getting mad and kicking someone out a window.

For me, these were the most telling things.  I didn't think things through like chess moves.  I let my emotions guide me.  Otherwise, I might not have wanted to cure the Genophage.  There was no rational reason for it to be the best decision, but I felt it to be the right one.  I also had formed an emotional attachment to Eve and Wrex and cared what happened to them and what they might have if I made the cure happen.  And I disliked the Salarian Dalatross and the cutthroat, clinical way most Salarians seemed to look at the situation.  But I loved Mordin.  So, I used feelings to dicatate most of my actions.

What I believe they are trying to say with the ending is that they suddenly decided this was some esoteric intellectual commentary on the meaning of existence, and whether we deserve what we get or take it all for granted expecting that tomorrow will always come, no matter what.  And our belief that our destiny is completely within our own hands or at least a partnership between us and some higher power (if we believe in one).  Perhaps they wanted to shake all those notions of evolution and advancement continuing on inevitable courses for a mostly good future.  And they wanted us to believe that we should suddenly think that it can be swept away on a whim not of our making or even of our making.  Conjecture to be sure.  But it is quite obvious they wanted this to go from a game where feelings matter to one where the only thing that matters was some intellectual argument.  And then they chose the most illogical, nonsensical bit of utter crapola to try and assert something intelligent was playing out there.

Well, I've said it before, I prefer my heroes alive, but if one scenario means that hero must die, then it should appeal to my feelings and it should matter and count for something.  I also prefer my game endings be that wonderful combination of adrenaline rush and emotional outburst-that appeals to my heart and my gut as much as to my eyes and spirit.  What we were told we have been given instead was something that used our brain power, but my brain totally rejects it and there is nothing there that appeals to my heart.  And the only appeal it has for my gut is that which causes a regurgitation effect and a slightly nauseated reaction.

Other than that, empty just about describes it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 juin 2012 - 11:16 .

[BlueStorm83]

--- Wow, been a quiet day here. I took a couple hours, had to replace a broken Video Card, and when I get back... three more posts than when I left. Awww, yeah? Like, "Awwwww," I'm asking. Not "Awwww yeaaaaaah." Which is the feeling I'll have when BioWare says, "Yeah, we screwed up. We're sorry."

[darthoptimus003]

if bioware was really listening then they would fix this
but no there are expanding on it
after 3 months im still pissed off about how much time money and hours i spent to have it all thrown in my face and kicked square in the balls
and the thing that pisses me off more is that they turned shep into a little b**** at the end
shep would have argued shot and made a HUGH fight of these bulls*** choices for victory and we didnt get that
all we got is gloom and doom
we have ENOUGH of this s*** in real life i dont want it in a game that i bought and paid you for

[3DandBeyond]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

if bioware was really listening then they would fix this
but no there are expanding on it
after 3 months im still pissed off about how much time money and hours i spent to have it all thrown in my face and kicked square in the balls
and the thing that pisses me off more is that they turned shep into a little b**** at the end
shep would have argued shot and made a HUGH fight of these bulls*** choices for victory and we didnt get that
all we got is gloom and doom
we have ENOUGH of this s*** in real life i dont want it in a game that i bought and paid you for

Agreed.  I wanted entertainment and not an expose on the futility of life and a commentary on existentialism.

I prefer my soda cold, my pillows fluffed, my news based on reality, my politicians silent, my entertainment entertain, my games be fun, and my heroes be alive.  But, above all I want meaningful conclusions to have meaning.

[Avex0100]

 I think the company could have reduced the amount of negative reviews if they had done two things:

1) Had made thier ending clear. Meaning no plot holes (Joker fleeing the battle and landing on the mysterious planet, the fate of the fleets on Earth, and the fates of all past squad members)

2) They did not lie to the gamer community. In the Game Informer magazine article on Mass Effect 3 Bioware explicitly said their was no long lost "Reaper off-button". If the Cruicible isn't an off button or anything near I don't know what is. If they had made this more of a war story I think that they would have largley possitive reviews. 

I will wait until the Extened Cut to make my final desision of the game. If they clearup all the plot holes then I will consider al things forgiven. 


If Bioware does actually read these then here are some suggestions for future DLC:

1) Retaking Palavan/Sur'Kesh/ Dekunna or any other home planet (Would love to see Reaper Salarians and Reaper Krogan(Just Krogan), any maybe some Reaper Elcor and Drell)

2) Reclaiming Omega *HUGE EMPHASIS ON THIS IDEA*  (I would like to walk around somewhere else besides the Citidel and love to see Reaper Vorcha and Reaper Quarians)

3) The Return of the Collectors (Would love to kill some more Collectors and possible see Javik become super PO at the Reapers)

4)The Return of the Thorian (This one is just a maybe)

(I think the goal of each DLC should give you a huge amount of resources to use in the final battle.)

One last thing, when are we ever going to get the multiplayer weaponssuch as the Harpoon Sniper Rifle and Geth SMG in single palyer?

[BearlyHere]

g0tlife wrote...

I can't play the game again, i know what will wait for me at the end. Stupid Bioware

I know how you feel. I know people who sold all three games. One guy I know sold all his Bioware games. I managed three plays, but only because I was determined to get that breath from my paragon, who had done everything "right" in the game for the best outcome. And I like many others here would be on another playthrough of all three if we hadn't been ripped off  by a lazy or desperate ending (I lean towards the latter, but what writer in his or her right mind doesn't have a rough idea of the ending in the beginning?)

Bioware could still redeem themselves by admitting that we are more than a wallet for them to tap.