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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#23326
mick_dingwall

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Why couldn't there have been some end pieces where you revisit these people in their environments?  Go to Tuchanka, Rannock, Grissom.  Get a message from Miranda inviting you to meet Ori and her family.  Meet Garrus in a bar and discuss Palaven or whatever.  You know why this couldn't happen?  Because they freaking destroyed the relays.


[/quote]

True the relays were destroyed but considering the marvel of engineering they preformed in the creation of the crucible (even if they didnt know what it did)  I like to believe that they eventualy make there own version of the mass relays  and open the pathways up.  Or at least design some super powerfull FTL drives or something.

But  deep down I realy wish they just had the shockwaves moving through the relay system.  Instead of having them all blow up to propel the energy to nearby systems.  I mean the ending I chose Synthesis was a rather hope raising ending but what good did it do sure theres no more synthetic no more organics but what good did it do since everyone is now cut off from each other and realisticaly unable to have galactic wars with each other now anyways.

Man this games ending  realy tore me up in some ways.  I dont mind a sadish ending but isolating everyone from each other was just a little to sad and depressing for me.  Hence why I like to belive they come up with their own relay system or something. Image IPB

#23327
BlueStorm83

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3DandBeyond wrote...

*Snipped*

There's a picture on the wiki of Harbinger by the Citadel conduit and it shows him shooting out 2 beams at once, so maybe one killed people and the one that hit Shepard caused this craziness.


---  Clearly, CLEARLY Harbinger gave Shepard the "Middle Beam."  I know that's what I feel like, at least.

#23328
3DandBeyond

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@mick_dingwall,
Problem is Shepard doesn't always die. Shepard may end up a gasping torso lying in a pile of rubble, but only if the amazing god player plays multi-player.

Appreciate your comments and you have just as much right to like the endings as anyone has to hate them. But, sacrifice indicates doing something for the greater good or at least for some good.

Destroy is for many people committing genocide. Control is being led to believe Shepard can achieve something that TIM wanted but is also shown as something only indoctrinated people believed would work, and Shepard dies but controls the reapers. Makes no sense. Synthesis is super space magic, where the beam must instantly turn all DNA into one DNA hybrid. And for good measure Shepard must jump into the batter. Ugh.

Also, the garbage that the kid spews is just that, garbage. He's saving organics. My eye. Sovereign said the reapers were there to destroy organics and he didn't much care for synthetics (the geth) either. The kid says he's preserving organic life, but hey don't look in those pots of people goo over there.

Here is what he basically says. I am sending my reapers to destroy you (turning people into goo isn't saving them) in order to prevent some future possible synthetic lifeform from destroying organic life. I am sacrificing your present for what might happen to someone at some time in the future. I am using synthetics to destroy you now so future synthetics will not bring about organic life's destruction.

If Shepard makes a choice and dies based upon this pile of bull crap, then Shepard is committing suicide and not achieving any form of sacrifice. Shepard is dooming all life to subjugation by affirming the choices given by the star kid. He says the crucible gives the choices (it changed him), but he still asserts that it's all about his solution. His solution was the destruction of present organics. The choices can still bring that about.

Also, consider that if you go further and get the star gazer scene-that took place 10,000 years in the future (description from a text dump of the story) as the writers saw it. The writers also saw the Crucible as responsible for a galactic dark ages. The grandpa in the star gazer scene does not know what life might exist in other star systems on other planets. They do not have interstellar travel 10k years in the future. The galaxy was pretty screwed up by whatever Shepard chose. It's probably best if Shepard dies since s/he at best wiped out most of the galaxy and if you went with what should have happened with the destruction or rupture of a relay, the whole galaxy should basically be in ruins.

Forget all those cutscenes of what your friends did after the war. They are all starving, doomed, and dying. It's unlikely they will ever see their home worlds again with the relays destroyed. You don't want to see that.

#23329
3DandBeyond

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

*Snipped*

There's a picture on the wiki of Harbinger by the Citadel conduit and it shows him shooting out 2 beams at once, so maybe one killed people and the one that hit Shepard caused this craziness.


---  Clearly, CLEARLY Harbinger gave Shepard the "Middle Beam."  I know that's what I feel like, at least.


The middle beam with a bit of his forearm up to his elbow.

#23330
3DandBeyond

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mick_dingwall wrote...


True the relays were destroyed but considering the marvel of engineering they preformed in the creation of the crucible (even if they didnt know what it did)  I like to believe that they eventualy make there own version of the mass relays  and open the pathways up.  Or at least design some super powerfull FTL drives or something.

But  deep down I realy wish they just had the shockwaves moving through the relay system.  Instead of having them all blow up to propel the energy to nearby systems.  I mean the ending I chose Synthesis was a rather hope raising ending but what good did it do sure theres no more synthetic no more organics but what good did it do since everyone is now cut off from each other and realisticaly unable to have galactic wars with each other now anyways.

Man this games ending  realy tore me up in some ways.  I dont mind a sadish ending but isolating everyone from each other was just a little to sad and depressing for me.  Hence why I like to belive they come up with their own relay system or something. Image IPB


All tech is based upon reaper tech.  Aethyta tried to convince the Asari to learn to build relays and was basically told to screw off.  No one learned enough about anything independent of what was given them by the reapers.  Sovereign stated the purpose of this was to lead them down a pre-ordained path, most likely so that any advancement took place within the limits of the 50 k year cycle.  It was perhaps disconcerting for them that the Quarian got beyond their proscribed timeline in creating the geth, but even that may have been intentional.  It may have been allowed in order to create an alternate threat so that the reapers would not be perceived as the real threat or so that the idea that synthetics could be a threat existed.  But even with the geth, the reapers had to tinker with fate and used them and even made them a real threat.

Sorry, I just don't see any choice as hopeful.  It's all based on what I see as something very likely to be reaper inspired tech.  Nothing left lying around was there by chance.  The Crucible plans fit this as well as I see it.  The Crucible is a money and resources pit from the beginning.  Wasted effort, wasted time, for something completely unknown. 

Understand, I am not trying to bring you down or to argue.  Just explaining my position on this.  I wanted truly happy, victorious and inspiring, with battle scenes.  I wanted to see the Rachni Queen get some justice.  The Rachni were some of the first to be used and abused on a monumental scale.  And their story was more iconic than the Prothean's.  The Rachni story is almost the beginning of all that happened within this cycle.

I've said it before, my biggest wish was for that moment when the reapers knew they'd lost.  Harbinger surrendering control.  Shepard raising a gun in the air, holding up that middle finger at Harbinger, not some faceless Alliance guys cheering.  I wanted big, bold, daring, splashy, dramatic, and then I wanted an epilogue.  I got depressing, demoralizing, bland, blah, and empty.  Oh with a large dash of stupid thrown in for good measure.

#23331
mick_dingwall

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Indeed the protheans were made out to simply be elitist jerks one could even say a organic version of the reapers. lol give me the poor ol rachni any day.

No I actualy find your responses quite compeling to tell the truth. There realy is no this will solve all the problems in the universe path. God I wish there was but I dont think it would be possible to even write.

I to would love to see shepard alive at the end of the day call me a sucker I love the hero's living through despite everything that happens to them. All I mean is out of all the paths that were presented to me the synthesis one seemed to have the highest amount of hope for the future. Mind you I never knew sheppard survived in the destroying the reapers option untill I went with synthesis

I agree as long as we are forced to walk down someone elses path can you realy ever have hope can you realy ever hope to win he presents us with 3 options they are all options that he has presented and so he probaly wins out no matter what you choose to do.

Like I say I liked the endings, do I think they could of done better.. hell yeah. I and im sure everyone has their own thoughts on what would been the best ending. Im all for the *beep* you reapers Im doing my own thing option but alas no such luck.

Anyways thanks for not flaming I get tired of those sorts of people heh. Best be off its getting late.

#23332
3DandBeyond

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One further tidbit that gets lost about the Rachni (unfairly seen as massive bad guys), they were used by the Protheans and forced into being aggressive by them-they bred them for war. Since the Rachni have this racial memory and know of events that occurred before and Shepard met with a Queen twice, why in hell didn't anyone think to ask if she knew of any of the events that occurred during the Prothean's time. They can genetically share memory. They also can see/perceive communication beyond what other organics can-might be able to see indoctrination in others. They are technologically advanced. This is one of the major unforgivable things in the game-the Rachni are a very deep and meaningful race.

#23333
Redbelle

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3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

*Snipped*

There's a picture on the wiki of Harbinger by the Citadel conduit and it shows him shooting out 2 beams at once, so maybe one killed people and the one that hit Shepard caused this craziness.


---  Clearly, CLEARLY Harbinger gave Shepard the "Middle Beam."  I know that's what I feel like, at least.


The middle beam with a bit of his forearm up to his elbow.


That'll be quite a smelly beam then

#23334
sonicchaos

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mick_dingwall wrote...

Indeed the protheans were made out to simply be elitist jerks one could even say a organic version of the reapers. lol give me the poor ol rachni any day.

No I actualy find your responses quite compeling to tell the truth. There realy is no this will solve all the problems in the universe path. God I wish there was but I dont think it would be possible to even write.

I to would love to see shepard alive at the end of the day call me a sucker I love the hero's living through despite everything that happens to them. All I mean is out of all the paths that were presented to me the synthesis one seemed to have the highest amount of hope for the future. Mind you I never knew sheppard survived in the destroying the reapers option untill I went with synthesis

I agree as long as we are forced to walk down someone elses path can you realy ever have hope can you realy ever hope to win he presents us with 3 options they are all options that he has presented and so he probaly wins out no matter what you choose to do.

Like I say I liked the endings, do I think they could of done better.. hell yeah. I and im sure everyone has their own thoughts on what would been the best ending. Im all for the *beep* you reapers Im doing my own thing option but alas no such luck.

Anyways thanks for not flaming I get tired of those sorts of people heh. Best be off its getting late.


So you wanna tell me you fought hundred of hours to get the chance to destroy the reapers and in the end chose to make love to them? Nice? Did you missed the part where Shepard becomes a husk in the ray of energy? Not here to judge your decisions, but I'm placing a logic marker in front of you. Your move.

#23335
Archonsg

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Going to be on hiatus somewhat.
Will lurk and check in here every once in a bit.

Am I still enraged with Bioware? Probably. Its still there when I think of what should have been, what could have been.

Oddly enough, I'm gonna load up Baldur's Gate and expansions, then BG2 and expansions. Play that and MP till the ECDLC comes out and see if ME3 will stay on my HDD.

As for DA3, all you have to do is look at the icons (or my BW game profile for that matter) under my user name to see how much I was looking forward to play the game.
It is a shame that I am now not so keen on buying it till I hear what other players, other long time Bioware fans have to say about DA3 before buying.

Luckily, and thankfully, there are Bioware fans who don't go for shooters and thus Mass Effect wasn't their cup of tea and their purchase habits won't be effected by ME3. ;)

Time to go do the load / reload thing because my level one gets crit one shot by a damned gibberling.;)


ps: BTW, if you want to buy / play these old great RPGS but can't find your discs, or aren't sure if you can get them off your local stores, you can buy the entire Baldur's Gate series, Planescape : Torment, The orignal Fallout series as well as other great old games (Wing Commander!) from Good Old Games . Its DRM free and has additional stuff like soundtracks, wallpapers and other stuff that makes the cost of the game (less then some of BW's 1hr gameplay DLCs) well worth it. :)

Modifié par Archonsg, 20 juin 2012 - 05:10 .


#23336
Redbelle

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sonicchaos wrote...

mick_dingwall wrote...

Indeed the protheans were made out to simply be elitist jerks one could even say a organic version of the reapers. lol give me the poor ol rachni any day.

No I actualy find your responses quite compeling to tell the truth. There realy is no this will solve all the problems in the universe path. God I wish there was but I dont think it would be possible to even write.

I to would love to see shepard alive at the end of the day call me a sucker I love the hero's living through despite everything that happens to them. All I mean is out of all the paths that were presented to me the synthesis one seemed to have the highest amount of hope for the future. Mind you I never knew sheppard survived in the destroying the reapers option untill I went with synthesis

I agree as long as we are forced to walk down someone elses path can you realy ever have hope can you realy ever hope to win he presents us with 3 options they are all options that he has presented and so he probaly wins out no matter what you choose to do.

Like I say I liked the endings, do I think they could of done better.. hell yeah. I and im sure everyone has their own thoughts on what would been the best ending. Im all for the *beep* you reapers Im doing my own thing option but alas no such luck.

Anyways thanks for not flaming I get tired of those sorts of people heh. Best be off its getting late.


So you wanna tell me you fought hundred of hours to get the chance to destroy the reapers and in the end chose to make love to them? Nice? Did you missed the part where Shepard becomes a husk in the ray of energy? Not here to judge your decisions, but I'm placing a logic marker in front of you. Your move.


When you delve down into the repercussions of Synthesis it's not such a great option. But on the surface and at the time it seemed the lesser of three evils to me. On one hand I don't want to control the Reapers, because it's impossible to control Reapers.......... It's a lesson that has been hammered into us at every turn and a 10 min conversation with Starboy won't change that. Then there's Destroy......... everything I ever wanted but wait.......... EDI and the Geth? Really? I don't actively go out of my way to kill my squadmates BW! And the Geth were just misunderstood the whole time, give or take a bloodbath here and there involving heretics and Reaper codes......... So nope, not going to destroy either EDI or Geth........ And as for Shepard being partly synthetic, Ok, he's got more bits in him than most but I checked and every soldier has implants to boost combat performance that involves altering body chemistry. Am I going affect them too?

<Levels a quivering finger at the short and spangly one> Dooooo nooooot shrug at me Starboy! This is one of many important questions!!!

Ok, so Starboy's as useful as an answer phone msg when you want to request an emergency service........ That leaves Synthesis.........

I actually picked this one first time around thinking, well it gets everyone I care about out the other side of this war in one piece. I was disappointed I couldn't add a little Reaper desruction in the mix and making everyone partly org and syn was a concern at the time. But Asari would still be Asari, Krogan would still be Krogan etc........... unless it's all a ploy and 10,000 years later they all start to look the same as each other. Regardless.......

On the surface Synth seems the lesser evil.

Then I saw the destroy option's last gasp sequence and got to wondering.

Modifié par Redbelle, 20 juin 2012 - 07:19 .


#23337
BlueStorm83

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--- I would have liked to pick Synthesis, and survive. THEN I'd pick destroy, and END THIS DEBACLE, FOREVER.

#23338
3DandBeyond

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I would have liked to pick Synthesis, and survive. THEN I'd pick destroy, and END THIS DEBACLE, FOREVER.


I'd like to pick Synthesis and throw the stupid star kid in there, but then who knows how messed up the galaxy would be. 

#23339
Redbelle

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3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I would have liked to pick Synthesis, and survive. THEN I'd pick destroy, and END THIS DEBACLE, FOREVER.


I'd like to pick Synthesis and throw the stupid star kid in there, but then who knows how messed up the galaxy would be. 


There's only one way to find out. You grab his legs while the rest of us draw straws as to who does the deed!

<cuts up pencils, holds them out and draws a long one>

Darn!

Modifié par Redbelle, 20 juin 2012 - 08:39 .


#23340
3DandBeyond

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Redbelle wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- I would have liked to pick Synthesis, and survive. THEN I'd pick destroy, and END THIS DEBACLE, FOREVER.


I'd like to pick Synthesis and throw the stupid star kid in there, but then who knows how messed up the galaxy would be. 


There's only one way to find out. You grab his legs while the rest of us draw straws as to who does the deed!

<cuts up pencils, holds them out and draws a long one>

Darn!


Ha ha!

Hey, I think the Bioware team ought to be forced to see how to make an ending.  They should be made to go back and play ME1 and ME2. 

Can't beat that fight on the outside of the Citadel leading up to getting to Saren and then the fight with Saren.  And can't beat the excitement and choices made during the suicide mission, the finger you show TIM if you decide to destroy the base and tell him to go to hell (only way I've played it) as well as the feeling of losing team members and then replaying to save everyone.  The leap Shepard makes onto the Normandy, Miranda's words to TIM if you take her with you at the end, the final nods in salutation to Shepard from teammates (brought a tear when Jack did it).  I mean, honestly how can they make something like that (no matter how un-smart the human reaper may have been).  Even Harbinger's final send off (we are your salvation through destruction, releasing control), Joker shooting at Collectors, Shepard telling Joker to lose TIM's channel, and seeing TIM stew, it had it all.  Shepard's speech to the team, with player input. 

And I realized what I don't like about Hackett in ME3.  Prior to that Shepard had been making all the choices and Hackett kept asking Shepard to do things, only happened a couple times in ME2, but it was more like Shepard was on his/her own as far as where to go.  In ME3, it was more about someone barking orders all the time. 

They need to watch those endings to see how it's done.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 20 juin 2012 - 09:15 .


#23341
TaradosGon

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I would do away with the concept that Shepard can pick any of three choices and have each end "bittersweet." There are consequences. When you decide to overthrow the Sith Lord in KOTOR and become one yourself, there are consequences to that choice. Certain characters run into a conflict in that they will not follow you down that path, they have their own beliefs. Characters wouldn't just sit idly by as Shepard decides to control the Reapers, ESPECIALLY if he has shown that his morals are questionable.

Jade Empire also has three endings: heroic, villainous, apathetic. In one you overthrow the villain and usher in an era of peace; in another you overthrow the villain but take his place as tyrant; in the last you end up agreeing with the villain's solution and stand down.

I think that's how things should have been applied to ME3:

Destroy = heroic
Control = villainous
Synthesis = apathetic

Each (or at least the first two) would have variations though, so that it would be possible to achieve a bad destroy ending or a good control ending.

Alter the cut scene earlier in the game with Legion. Have the four options be:

-Side with Tali
-Side with Geth
-Allow Legion to upload code and convince Gerrel to stand down (Renegade, achieve Geth-Quarrian peace).
-And change the Paragon option so that you dissuade Legion from uploading the code but also convince Gerrel to stand down (Paragon, achieve Geth-Quarrian peace).

The outcome for this would be that Legion survives, but the Geth would still be crippled from the earlier Quarrian attack. The Geth fleet therefore will not be able to assist during the battle over Earth, however you will gain Legion as a war asset assisting on the Crucible.

So when you pick Destroy, whether or not the Geth are wiped out will depend on whether or not you let Legion upload the code. If you did, then they will be wiped out along with the Reapers. If you didn't, then the Geth will survive. Similarly, if you were nice to EDI and fostered her interest in human behavior and told her about what it means to be human, so that she re-writes some of her own code, then she will survive. If you dissuaded her from pursuing a relationship with Joker and treated her poorly, then she will die. This will involve clarification that the Crucible will target Reaper technology and by EDI re-writing some of her programs and by Legion not uploading Reaper code, they will survive.

For Control:
-Bad ending- Default: If you sacrificed the Council in ME1, failed to cure the Genophage, chose the Geth over the Quarians, and/or left the Collector Base intact for T.I.M, then the aliens of the galaxy will not trust you. They will see Shepard taking control of the Reapers as a further grab for human power and will continue to attack the Reapers. This will lead to Shepard being forced to retaliate and crippling the fleet. To re-establish order, the Reapers are used to suppress the uprisings against Shepard's decision. Humanity comes out as the clear hegemon of the Galaxy.

-Good ending- If you saved the Council in ME1 and took actions that earn you trust with the aliens of the Galaxy (cure genophage, destroy collector base, secure peace between quarians and geth), then the aliens will not regard Shepard's decision with as much suspicion. Instead Shepard will use the Reapers to serve a rebuilt galactic community that now includes an expanded council comprised of members of all the principle species that helped fight the Reapers. Technology will also recover more quickly as scientists are allowed to study the Reaper tech.

As for the third ending category....

Synthesis as is just does not make sense. It is "space magic." I can see two alternatives to this ending.

1. Instead of Synthesis, have the third ending be "Liberation." The Catalyst will explain that he is in Control of the Reapers, and consequently Shepard can break that control. In this ending the Reapers, including Harbinger, are liberated and immediately turn on the Catalyst (attack the Citadel). It is ambiguous as to whether or not Shepard survives, but in an epilogue he ends up returning to Earth with the help of the Reapers.

2. A different kind of Synthesis. Synthesis is pretty much Shepard acknowledging that there is in fact a Cycle and consenting to go with the Catalyst's solution. A solution would be to make this the equivalent of Jade Empire's "apathetic" ending. The Catalyst tells you that his solution is required to preserve organic life. Shepard acknowledges the solution and allows himself to "ascend" and become a reaper that will forever be a protector (in a warped sense) of organic life. I would have no expectation that this would be a popular ending, just as the third ending of Jade Empire wasn't, but it would be a form of "synthesis" and would also be just an alternative ending for subsequent play throughs. An ending cinematic might consist of Shepard agreeing to stand down and watching the fleet get decimated by the Reapers. Then fast forward 50,000 years and we see that Earth has completely recovered and we see a sprawling "alien" civilization. The camera pulls back from Earth, out of the solar system, and finally out of the galaxy where we see the Reapers approaching once more from Dark Space, including a human reaper.

Lastly, when it comes to the Catalyst, I would overhaul his dialogue and drop his motive to protect organics from synthetics. Sovereign talks about how the Reapers represent Order and the organics represent chaos. That is enough to go on IMO. The Catalyst shouldn't be telling Shepard how he can destroy them or control them. Instead he should be a being that simply desires control and maintaining predictability. He allows sentient life to advance so far and then harvests them because they create chaos, wage war, and because their future is uncertain, and that scares the hell out of the Catalyst that has built himself up to be a "God" by controlling which races are spared and which races are harvested (and when). He also maintains control over the technological evolution of species through the Citadel and Mass Relays. His obsession to maintain control could be motive enough. There need not be a benevolent motive. It was kind of anti-climactic IMO when we found out that the entity controlling the evil, monstrous reapers was an entity that seemed to have good intentions.

Also, Shepard should not die in every ending. Surely he would die in my proposal for a different Synthesis ending, and he could die when he assumes control of the Reapears but is turned on by the aliens in the fleet. And maybe he will die in the destroy ending along with the Geth and Edi, but there would also be a good version for both control and destroy in which he survives. And he would survive in my "liberate" ending.

Modifié par TaradosGon, 20 juin 2012 - 09:29 .


#23342
elitecom

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I have a lot of thoughts about the ending, but for now my most immediate thoughts which came to me while I played through it will have to do. The first thing I thought of when I played through it was how similar it felt to Battlestar Galactica. Especially the Synthesis ending which felt like Battlestar Galactica Season 4 all over again. Suddenly the issue of organics eventually creating synthetics which would eventually rebel against their creators became overly relevant, in fact one may say it became a key point at the end. At the same time it felt too "out of the blue". While the Mass Effect franchise has been dealing with the theme: man against machine or organics vs synthetics, it had up until then felt quite unique and distinct from other franchises exploring the same theme such as Terminator or Battlestar Galactica.

In a blink of an eye though Mass Effect 3 and the franchise felt like Battlestar Galactica, and Synthesis as Season 4, which is a problem if you don't like Season 4, which I do.

So what about the two other endings? They certainly aren't BSG Season 4 all over again, right?

No they aren't, but their foundation is based upon the same issue: The created will rebel against its creator. The endings are all pertaining to the same underlying issue. An issue which I feel is flawed in its own right. So yes billions of years ago or something like that synthetics rebelled against organics, almost wiping them out, and this catalyst fellow was created to solve the problem. The problem with that is that the Catalyst doesn't know whether that will always be the case, it is assuming that it will always happen based upon those limited experiences billions of years ago, but as Sovereign said "Organic life is (nothing but) a mutation", in other words it is random, you never know what will happen. Furthermore the possible coexistence of organics and synthetics were never given a chance because the Reaper cycle system was initiated. And Humans are quite contingent in their own right and that goes for all organic life. It is random. There are also examples of synthetics that have been coming along just fine with organics(EDI).

So the endings are pretty much a forced disposition based upon the rather flawed premise on organic life of the Catalyst, which are again based upon events that happened billions of years ago, which seems to entirely fail to take organic life's contingency into account, thus making the ending as it is rather unnecessary.

Modifié par elitecom, 20 juin 2012 - 10:05 .


#23343
BlueStorm83

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--- Contrary to what BioWare will tell you, "Man VS Machine" is NOT a thread of the Mass Effect storyline. It's more a thread of "Man AND Machine," or even more simply "Are we too different to ever just respect each other and not come into conflict over that difference?"

In Mass Effect 1, we're TOLD that Artificial Intelligence is too dangerous to do. You can't just create intelligence; it'll rebel and destroy you! But then we're given the Krogan, who were uplifted by the Salarians, and then rebelled against them. Not because they were Machines, but because they weren't ready for the sudden technology they were given. They just weren't ready for that kind of responsibility.

By the same token we see the Rachni Wars. The Citadel Races opened the Relays, that they weren't ready to use wisely, and accidentally started a war that almost wiped them out. The Rachni themselves were revealed to be turned into a warrior race by the Protheans. The Rachni didn't gain space travel on their own. They were given it by the Protheans before they had adopted a mindset where they need to be cautious and civilized.

Even Humanity falls into this. We were suddenly HANDED interstellar travel, and what's the first thing we do? The First Contact War. But the important thing to realize is...

Through it all, we PROVE that the past mistakes don't have to continue into the future. We remove the prejudice against the Quarrians, we make up with the Batarians, we get the Krogans to work with the Turians and the Salarians, we show the Asari that we're just as good as they are, we redeem the Rachni, we show EVERYONE that the Geth just want friends. Mass Effect's overriding theme, from the first second to the last second is this: You're wrong, we can make our own way, we don't need you to tell us who we are, and we don't all have to be the same to work well together.

And then in the end, Shepard looks at the Starboy and says, "You're right! We can't do it on our own! YOUR solutions will define who we are, and now, giving up what I've always believed, I will force us all to be the same, disregarding the bonds that we've made OVERCOMING our differences."

#23344
3DandBeyond

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elitecom wrote...

I have a lot of thoughts about the ending, but for now my most immediate thoughts which came to me while I played through it will have to do. The first thing I thought of when I played through it was how similar it felt to Battlestar Galactica. Especially the Synthesis ending which felt like Battlestar Galactica Season 4 all over again. Suddenly the issue of organics eventually creating synthetics which would eventually rebel against their creators became overly relevant, in fact one may say it became a key point at the end. At the same time it felt too "out of the blue". While the Mass Effect franchise has been dealing with the theme: man against machine or organics vs synthetics, it had up until then felt quite unique and distinct from other franchises exploring the same theme such as Terminator or Battlestar Galactica.

In a blink of an eye though Mass Effect 3 and the franchise felt like Battlestar Galactica, and Synthesis as Season 4, which is a problem if you don't like Season 4, which I do.

So what about the two other endings? They certainly aren't BSG Season 4 all over again, right?

No they aren't, but their foundation is based upon the same issue: The created will rebel against its creator. The endings are all pertaining to the same underlying issue. An issue which I feel is flawed in its own right. So yes billions of years ago or something like that synthetics rebelled against organics, almost wiping them out, and this catalyst fellow was created to solve the problem. The problem with that is that the Catalyst doesn't know whether that will always be the case, it is assuming that it will always happen based upon those limited experiences billions of years ago, but as Sovereign said "Organic life is (nothing but) a mutation", in other words it is random, you never know what will happen. Furthermore the possible coexistence of organics and synthetics were never given a chance because the Reaper cycle system was initiated. And Humans are quite contingent in their own right and that goes for all organic life. It is random. There are also examples of synthetics that have been coming along just fine with organics(EDI).

So the endings are pretty much a forced disposition based upon the rather flawed premise on organic life of the Catalyst, which are again based upon events that happened billions of years ago, which seems to entirely fail to take organic life's contingency into account, thus making the ending as it is rather unnecessary.


The funny thing is and you point to this, Sovereign sees that randomness is possible (though he has great disdain for organics), and even the star kid sees randomness-chaos is randomness magnified.  That chaos exists indicates that what has always been will not necessarily always be again.  So, even if he always saw synthetics rebel and try to destroy organics, chaos inserts unknowns into the equation.  His whole chaos/order "argument" speaks more to his creation than anything else.  It is like binary-on and off or 1 and 0.

It's also the defining difference between organic life and computers (not synthetic life because I see them as a bit more random too).  Computers are about order, so the kid aspires to order and aligns himself with the guardians of order, his creation.  Organics represent chaos and will react and do things that are not along a fated path, but the kid and the Reapers have consistently tried to get organics to follow a fated path.

I think Shepard represented something to the reapers, threatening but also more and I think that was all abandoned in the end.

#23345
jas923792

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I thought the ending was brilliant. It was all about interpretation. I am glad that you really didn't tell us who the reapers really were. I have my own opinion and i think that everyone else has their idea of what the reapers are. I honestly feel like the Indoctrination Theory is true. There is no way all of that happened on "accident" Also, Mass Effect 3 is honestly the best game I have ever played! Enjoyed every freaking minute. Mass Effect was my first RPG and it will not be my last because of you guys! Thank YOU BIOWARE!!!!

#23346
Archonsg

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Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode :P*

Modifié par Archonsg, 21 juin 2012 - 02:17 .


#23347
cavs25

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jas923792 wrote...

I thought the ending was brilliant. It was all about interpretation. I am glad that you really didn't tell us who the reapers really were. I have my own opinion and i think that everyone else has their idea of what the reapers are. I honestly feel like the Indoctrination Theory is true. There is no way all of that happened on "accident" Also, Mass Effect 3 is honestly the best game I have ever played! Enjoyed every freaking minute. Mass Effect was my first RPG and it will not be my last because of you guys! Thank YOU BIOWARE!!!!


They did tell you who the reapers were
Starchild's toys :wizard:

#23348
gemelk

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3DandBeyond wrote...


Also, the garbage that the kid spews is just that, garbage. He's saving organics. My eye. Sovereign said the reapers were there to destroy organics and he didn't much care for synthetics (the geth) either. The kid says he's preserving organic life, but hey don't look in those pots of people goo over there.

Here is what he basically says. I am sending my reapers to destroy you (turning people into goo isn't saving them) in order to prevent some future possible synthetic lifeform from destroying organic life. I am sacrificing your present for what might happen to someone at some time in the future. I am using synthetics to destroy you now so future synthetics will not bring about organic life's destruction.

If Shepard makes a choice and dies based upon this pile of bull crap, then Shepard is committing suicide and not achieving any form of sacrifice. Shepard is dooming all life to subjugation by affirming the choices given by the star kid. He says the crucible gives the choices (it changed him), but he still asserts that it's all about his solution. His solution was the destruction of present organics. The choices can still bring that about.

Also, consider that if you go further and get the star gazer scene-that took place 10,000 years in the future (description from a text dump of the story) as the writers saw it. The writers also saw the Crucible as responsible for a galactic dark ages. The grandpa in the star gazer scene does not know what life might exist in other star systems on other planets. They do not have interstellar travel 10k years in the future. The galaxy was pretty screwed up by whatever Shepard chose. It's probably best if Shepard dies since s/he at best wiped out most of the galaxy and if you went with what should have happened with the destruction or rupture of a relay, the whole galaxy should basically be in ruins.

.


Actually, all of the kid's scripted nonsense (garbage) is a complete refutation of everything that Shepard has worked to create.  The kid says all organic life must be destroyed because otherwise synthetics will destroy all organic life ... wait ... that's circular logic which is ...garbage. 

Shepard has been working from the start to bring about cooperation in diversity (for ST fans, think Vulcan IDIC).  Shepard has worked to show each of the species why they NEED each other.  He built his teams out many species.  He countered existing stereotypes of humans and destroyed prejudice and stigma. 

Yet, at the end of this, the (god) child fails to see any of this and Shepard does the one thing he would never do, capitulate and chooses suicide.  This violates all 3 games plot and theme lines. 

Everything we worked up to, that we came to love about ME and Shepard, was betrayed by the ending of ME3. 

Frankly, the explanations we've been given for the ending, are likewise "garbage" and a betrayal of us.  It's Bioware and EA saying - "We got your money now shut up and go away."

Why trust or buy from them ever again?!

Eric

#23349
Redbelle

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Archonsg wrote...

Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode :P*


Vigil: If you go to Cit'a'del you shall die.

#23350
JICMAN

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 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers :alien: