23455 réponses à ce sujet

[sonicchaos]

JICMAN wrote...

 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers 

most hate on this starchild. i'm not saying i'm fond of him, but you can either interpret his as a familiar projection to shepard or a familiar figure of his imagination in the indoctrination theory. so, i don't see him as a threat to the story, but i would really like to have a more insight on that "higher being" if it's the first one.

[Archonsg]

Redbelle wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode *

Vigil: If you go to Cit'a'del you shall die.

Haha.
Though, they should have had a "Loriel" to help Shepard back. 
And to foreshadow Shepard in taking another path.
Like that at Zhahadum, Sheridan choices was to give in to the Shadows, accept the construct that was his wife (starbrat) arguments or choose to die alone in nulcear fire. And destroy the base that was home of the Shadows.

Actually come to think of it., its pretty similar to what we had.
Only difference was, Sheridan went on his own free will, knowing he would die. 
In ME3, Shepard was forced to take a suicide choice.

And there wasn't a "Loriel" to save him.

[Voodoo-j]

Solstice today.. summer is here!
(actually 23:04 yesterday)

[Redbelle]

Archonsg wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode *

Vigil: If you go to Cit'a'del you shall die.

Haha.
Though, they should have had a "Loriel" to help Shepard back. 
And to foreshadow Shepard in taking another path.
Like that at Zhahadum, Sheridan choices was to give in to the Shadows, accept the construct that was his wife (starbrat) arguments or choose to die alone in nulcear fire. And destroy the base that was home of the Shadows.

Actually come to think of it., its pretty similar to what we had.
Only difference was, Sheridan went on his own free will, knowing he would die. 
In ME3, Shepard was forced to take a suicide choice.

And there wasn't a "Loriel" to save him.

L'Oriel? Because Shepard wasn't worth it.

SORRYsorrysorrysorrysorry, couldn't resist!

[Redbelle]

sonicchaos wrote...

JICMAN wrote...

 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers 

most hate on this starchild. i'm not saying i'm fond of him, but you can either interpret his as a familiar projection to shepard or a familiar figure of his imagination in the indoctrination theory. so, i don't see him as a threat to the story, but i would really like to have a more insight on that "higher being" if it's the first one.

If the catalyst would just say.

"I'm from the first cycle. We nearly destroyed all life through our choices. Then another species made the same mistake and that nearly destroyed all life too. That's why we hit on the idea of Reaping and preserving species at the high point of their existence before they make the same mistake as us"

I would be able to sympathise to a greater extent why Reapers became, in the Cat's mind, neccessary. Rubbish for the rest of us but just something to explain why Reaping seemed a good idea at the time.

[BlueStorm83]

Redbelle wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode *

Vigil: If you go to Cit'a'del you shall die.

I GET IT!  lol, Bab Five.

[TaradosGon]

Bioware need not even go so far as to make the reason for the "reapings" a benevolent one. As I've said in other threads, the Catalyst claims the Reapers are his solution to a repeated cycle of violence. Vendetta claims that every cycle follows the same patterns of conflicts. However, Sovereign shows that every cycle is guided down the same path by the Reapers themselves. They are the one common denominator amongst different cycles, with species from different worlds, and species that are genetically and culturally different.

Mordin warns about how conflict with the Krogan could be the salarians fault for giving them technology that they were not culturally ready for. It's irresponsible. Yet, this is what the Reapers do. They leave the relays and the Citadel for sentient life to find, and then it launches their technology forward rapidly in such a short time, and they - as a people - are not ready for it.

The repeated patterns seem to be the fault of the Reapers. The Reapers guide organic life down a path that they desire (as Sovereign claims). I don't buy how the Catalyst can claim to be trying to protect organic life, since a lot of the problems that threaten organic life can arguably be the Catalyst's fault. He launches their technology forward too fast.

If there is one thing that the Cycle does achieve though, it's predictability. The Catalyst says that the Reapers are his solution to chaos, and Javik makes a comment about synthetics living an orderly existence that they understand, while organics live a chaotic existence, striving to find purpose to their lives.

The Catalyst need not give any kind of pretense that he is protecting organic life from synthetic life. He himself is synthetic and is the one responsible for the most widespread devastation of organic life. His motives should merely have been left at the desire for order. That he guides civilizations down a predictable path, ensures that each cycle follows the same pattern, and that when civilizations evolve to a certain point where their path may no longer be predictable (maybe they develop technologies that the Catalyst cannot account for), they are harvested to make new Reapers - transforming chaotic beings into the enforcers of order.

Modifié par TaradosGon, 21 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[AdmiralDavidAnderson]

Please bioware... give the game the justice it deserves with the extended cut... you have an opportunity here to redeem the ending... C'MON... PLEASE!

[3DandBeyond]

JICMAN wrote...

 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers 

Actually, I have often wondered why the keepers didn't figure somewhat more prominently.  I mean that scanning for Chorban in ME1 (if you did that) or the surveillance of keeper 20 by the Shadow Broker if you did LotSB or at least the dang keeper standing with all the bodies when Shepard reaches the Citadel.  The list of "what was all that about?" just keeps growing for ME and for me.

That's one of the big problems here.  It's like they started a sentence (in this case a lot of sentences) and then never finished it.  That and the things that directly contradict other things done and said within the games, even within just ME3 itself.

Discussions of human diversity-why was this such an issue, repeated many times.
Collectors searching for genetic mutations in humans.
Collectors and reapers trying to get Shepard's body.
Basically there's this whole obsession with humans that the reapers seem to have that is never really explained.

What exactly was the plague on Omega for other than another example of the reapers killing people?
The keepers.
Fish.
Reasons for no Prothean reapers.
Why so many cuttlefish ones and why aren't there a lot of different "models".
Why don't Space Hamsters need food?
Why destroy anything in ME2 since it's just recreated somehow in ME3 (human reaper, Stolen Memory graybox data, Collector Base data).  Even those that die are recreated with other people mostly.
Why are there so many Jacobs or Jakes in the game?
2 references to Legion (Sovereign's use of the word with the quote, we are legion).
What did the Rachni know?  With their genetic memory and their having been used by the Protheans, they are the oldest sentient beings found to date.  They might actually be witnesses to what was going on back then.  Why was this not explored?  What I mean is why bring this up if it's not going to be used at all?
Big question, never answered--and I'm not sure I truly care, but since it's the main focus of one of the most important moments in all three games--just who is the star kid exactly?

Of course, there's a lot more never explained.  This is a mini-list, and only a start.

[3DandBeyond]

TaradosGon wrote...

Bioware need not even go so far as to make the reason for the "reapings" a benevolent one. As I've said in other threads, the Catalyst claims the Reapers are his solution to a repeated cycle of violence. Vendetta claims that every cycle follows the same patterns of conflicts. However, Sovereign shows that every cycle is guided down the same path by the Reapers themselves. They are the one common denominator amongst different cycles, with species from different worlds, and species that are genetically and culturally different.

Mordin warns about how conflict with the Krogan could be the salarians fault for giving them technology that they were not culturally ready for. It's irresponsible. Yet, this is what the Reapers do. They leave the relays and the Citadel for sentient life to find, and then it launches their technology forward rapidly in such a short time, and they - as a people - are not ready for it.

The repeated patterns seem to be the fault of the Reapers. The Reapers guide organic life down a path that they desire (as Sovereign claims). I don't buy how the Catalyst can claim to be trying to protect organic life, since a lot of the problems that threaten organic life can arguably be the Catalyst's fault. He launches their technology forward too fast.

If there is one thing that the Cycle does achieve though, it's predictability. The Catalyst says that the Reapers are his solution to chaos, and Javik makes a comment about synthetics living an orderly existence that they understand, while organics live a chaotic existence, striving to find purpose to their lives.

The Catalyst need not give any kind of pretense that he is protecting organic life from synthetic life. He himself is synthetic and is the one responsible for the most widespread devastation of organic life. His motives should merely have been left at the desire for order. That he guides civilizations down a predictable path, ensures that each cycle follows the same pattern, and that when civilizations evolve to a certain point where their path may no longer be predictable (maybe they develop technologies that the Catalyst cannot account for), they are harvested to make new Reapers - transforming chaotic beings into the enforcers of order.

They actually had a more conceivable purpose for harvesting organics that seems to have been abandoned for what they thought was more intellectual.

Sovereign and Harbinger clearly state they are there to kill people.

And the Human reaper in ME2 is described by EDI as their way to reproduce.  It's also said that the reapers come out every 50k years perhaps for this purpose and to eat.  They hide dormant until ready to come back.  They come back when advanced organics reach maturity based upon the tech they left for them.  They are fattening them up for the kill.  It's the same thing that people do with their prey when hunting.  And the prey that's culled is only that which is at a certain level or maturity. 

It's one of the things I think they may have started to allude to with why Quarians are not harvested-they changed it to be because of their immune systems, but I thought they may have originally thought the Quarians had gotten too big-they created a real AI and synthetic life.  They had advanced too far.  They didn't keep their goo, they just killed Quarians.

I also wondered if this wasn't why they seemed to be experimenting with the plague on Omega and looking for genetic mutations.

They also seek to isolate people within the galaxy-like herding animals into a certain confine. They don't kill synthetics (the geth), they use them like herders and they act as overseers.  They don't much like the geth either, but want people to fear them.

Of course, much of this is just conjecture on my part, but it is extrapolated from everything we are told, in codexes, by EDI, by the reapers, in terms they use, and so on.  They harvest organics.  We all know what that means, but we've just taken it to be something else.  You harvest mature crops by reaping.  You harvest mature animals for food.  If this was never intended why the consistent use of terms that are more frequently used to refer to food?  In fact, they do tend to treat people the way a lot of hunters do with their fresh kills.  Hunters string them up to bleed them out and discard the parts they don't use.  There are even some cultures that see partaking of the meat as an honor they do the killed animal and an honor the animal is doing for them.  There are some people, cultures, groups that consider and use the exact term, that food is part of ascension.

Almost all of what the Catalyst says is a retconning of things said by 2 reapers in the game and everything else that could be done in them.  He's as out of place as mammaries on a reaper.

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

Replace Sheridan and Delenn with Shepard and Liara in this clip from Babylon 5 : Sheridan and Delenn on the nature of the war between Chaos and Order and we could have had the scene between "starbrat Harbinger" and the lead to a final battle between Harbinger vs Shepard and Liara (Love Interest) and Reaper fleet vs Galactic Victory fleet.

Boss fight in VR land against Harbinger's "consciousness"
Big ass fleet battle.
How could this not be good / epic?

For being such huge fans of Babylon 5, I can't believe Bioware's writers didn't even think of using this, and instead steal from another game, Square Enix's original "Dues Ex (year 2000)'s ending"

Oh wait they didn't.
They were steamrolled by two guys who thought to steal the limelight.

*goes back into lurk mode *

Honest to god you can see the similarities between the B5 ending and ME3's.  B5 did it better.  They rejected false choices set up by the Vorlons and Shadows in order to perpetuate a conflict between order and chaos.  It seems someone just didn't understand what they were saying there.  People had grown up, matured beyond the need for some overseers that set up paths and tried to direct or dicate fate.

For heaven's sake, was there a story they didn't "borrow" from in making the ending?  Where's the ending to the story we were in-where's the ending to ME?  I think if I want a Deus ex, Princess Bride-esque, Matrixy, Babylon 5ish, and so on ending, I would view or play the things that those endings were created for.  I want an ending for ME.

The thing is you can see that they stole some ideas from that ending, but since it had nothing to do with ME, they changed it a bit.  I mean in B5, you have 2 entities that are continually trying to create something to prove that their side is right-and they need to have a conflict to prove it and to win.

This doesn't exist in ME.  The only 2 sides are people that want to live and reapers that don't want them to.  So, they may actually have been trying to set up a full B5 ending by bringing in the kid, but ran out of time.  Maybe the kid was originally supposed to be that Being of Light the one Volus was looking for.  Originally made to be a guardian and all and that he was against the reapers.  That makes more sense because it fits the codex entry-that they were protecting organics from the machine monsters.  It also makes sense that the kid would be order and the reapers chaos, with a catalyst that makes the crucible work and the crucible being the test (what a crucible is).


And then the choices in Deus ex are so revealing.  What originality Bioware.  Apparently people are too stupid to remember your art was something you traced from drawings someone else made.

Deus ex:

1. First ending is where you join the Illuminati:
"Kill Bob Page and clear the way for the former Illuminati leaders to restore the age-old secret government. Rule the world with compassion and an invisible hand alongside Morgan Everett."
2. Second ending is where you merge with the Helios A.I.:
"Together with Helios, administrate the world with absolute knowledge and reason."
3. Third ending is where you side with Tracer Tong and send the world into a new Dark Age:
"Destroying the global communications hub will plunge the world into another Dark Age - dark but perhaps free from global tyranny."


Gee, why does that sound familiar?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[Thanatos144]

Its a game people.

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

What you need to wish for is a life. I suggest you find one and maybe you will be more happy in life. I am pretty sure you 6000 posts saying the same thing has been heard now your posting just to feed your ego.

[sonicchaos]

Redbelle wrote...

sonicchaos wrote...

JICMAN wrote...

 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers 

most hate on this starchild. i'm not saying i'm fond of him, but you can either interpret his as a familiar projection to shepard or a familiar figure of his imagination in the indoctrination theory. so, i don't see him as a threat to the story, but i would really like to have a more insight on that "higher being" if it's the first one.

If the catalyst would just say.

"I'm from the first cycle. We nearly destroyed all life through our choices. Then another species made the same mistake and that nearly destroyed all life too. That's why we hit on the idea of Reaping and preserving species at the high point of their existence before they make the same mistake as us"

I would be able to sympathise to a greater extent why Reapers became, in the Cat's mind, neccessary. Rubbish for the rest of us but just something to explain why Reaping seemed a good idea at the time.

that would give an even better reason for choosing "destroy". because that would be illuminating: yes, the geth are my friends now, edi is my friend now, but they have the ability to learn even beyond human comprehension; so why would i want to keep the reapers and all synthetics alive after that statement? i give you credit for being on the spot with this one, because this catalyst kid is actually so vague and elusive about everything and shepard, in his automation, is like "oh, yeah, pfff, i understood everything. let's do this". no, shepard, you understood nothing, i want to ask that little snotty creep some questions of my own. geez

Modifié par sonicchaos, 21 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

What you need to wish for is a life. I suggest you find one and maybe you will be more happy in life. I am pretty sure you 6000 posts saying the same thing has been heard now your posting just to feed your ego.

Yes, oh wise one, that's exactly it.  You know all and see all.  Hmm, you're here too, constantly rehashing your same inane one line comments meant to belittle people.  Just exactly what kind of life do you have.  You know nothing about me-I'm very happy indeed.  You on the other hand appear consistently to be very bitter for some reason.  That's not happy.

[sonicchaos]

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

What you need to wish for is a life. I suggest you find one and maybe you will be more happy in life. I am pretty sure you 6000 posts saying the same thing has been heard now your posting just to feed your ego.

so what's your beef in this, kid? is someone holding a gun to your face or something?

[Thanatos144]

sonicchaos wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

What you need to wish for is a life. I suggest you find one and maybe you will be more happy in life. I am pretty sure you 6000 posts saying the same thing has been heard now your posting just to feed your ego.

so what's your beef in this, kid? is someone holding a gun to your face or something?

I am 40 so that wuld makwe a damn old kid and I have no beef Just find os absurd you all spend months saying the same thing all day long ....Get out of thre house. Do something. Get a job. Play a sport. DO SOMETHING!  if you this obsessed with a game you have issues.

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

sonicchaos wrote...

so what's your beef in this, kid? is someone holding a gun to your face or something?

I am 40 so that wuld makwe a damn old kid and I have no beef Just find os absurd you all spend months saying the same thing all day long ....Get out of thre house. Do something. Get a job. Play a sport. DO SOMETHING!  if you this obsessed with a game you have issues.

Bubbles here just keeps coming back and complaining about people he thinks complain too much.  He loves insulting people, but claims he doesn't insult because he doesn't do it too much.  He also is as obsessed with finding fault with people who post here, claiming that we are obsessed (can't see that he is himself).  He's the posting police.  He has a badge, but no gun (thankfully).

He's fond of insulting people's education, but seems to have little grasp of what the word means.  He cannot count above 5 (not my opinion, he repeatedly uses the number 5 as proof of something).  He moved on a long time ago or so he said.  It doesn't look like he has, but who am I to argue with that?

His age is his proof of maturity, but proof lies in deeds, not statements.

He's sometimes ignored, sometimes answered-he helps keep the post count up.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 juin 2012 - 02:57 .

[sdinc009]

elitecom wrote...

I have a lot of thoughts about the ending, but for now my most immediate thoughts which came to me while I played through it will have to do. The first thing I thought of when I played through it was how similar it felt to Battlestar Galactica. Especially the Synthesis ending which felt like Battlestar Galactica Season 4 all over again. Suddenly the issue of organics eventually creating synthetics which would eventually rebel against their creators became overly relevant, in fact one may say it became a key point at the end. At the same time it felt too "out of the blue". While the Mass Effect franchise has been dealing with the theme: man against machine or organics vs synthetics, it had up until then felt quite unique and distinct from other franchises exploring the same theme such as Terminator or Battlestar Galactica.

In a blink of an eye though Mass Effect 3 and the franchise felt like Battlestar Galactica, and Synthesis as Season 4, which is a problem if you don't like Season 4, which I do.

So what about the two other endings? They certainly aren't BSG Season 4 all over again, right?

No they aren't, but their foundation is based upon the same issue: The created will rebel against its creator. The endings are all pertaining to the same underlying issue. An issue which I feel is flawed in its own right. So yes billions of years ago or something like that synthetics rebelled against organics, almost wiping them out, and this catalyst fellow was created to solve the problem. The problem with that is that the Catalyst doesn't know whether that will always be the case, it is assuming that it will always happen based upon those limited experiences billions of years ago, but as Sovereign said "Organic life is (nothing but) a mutation", in other words it is random, you never know what will happen. Furthermore the possible coexistence of organics and synthetics were never given a chance because the Reaper cycle system was initiated. And Humans are quite contingent in their own right and that goes for all organic life. It is random. There are also examples of synthetics that have been coming along just fine with organics(EDI).

So the endings are pretty much a forced disposition based upon the rather flawed premise on organic life of the Catalyst, which are again based upon events that happened billions of years ago, which seems to entirely fail to take organic life's contingency into account, thus making the ending as it is rather unnecessary.

This is truely an issue of story structure. The primary reason this "organics vs. synthetics" concept is forced is because this plot line and whole theme was resolved a few missions before the ending. What kind of terrible writer would resolve a plot line and then reopen it in the final scene and try to re-resolve it? The pre-dominant theme in the battle for Rannoch was organics vs. synthetics. And that entire series of events in many ways goes completely against the Catalysts logic. Shepard can argue for or against synthetics as living things in a debate between Javick and EDI. Shepard has commentary choices with Javick about Legion being on the Normandy. Shepard learns that it wasn't the Geth that rebelled, but really just fought for self preservation and did not want to destroy their creators. If not for the "old machines" the Geth would have never presented a problem. Finally, the choices in the conclusion of this plot line are that Shepard can destroy the Geth thus rendering them no longer a problem, let the geth defeat the Quarians making them an ally, thus rendering them no longer a probelm, or resolving the entire Geth/ Quarian war and having them both survive as allies, thus rendering them no longer a problem. No matter what you do, the plot line is resolved with the "synthetics" of our cycle not being a problem and the only reason they ever became one was because the Quarians tried to kill them and the Reapers forced them. When they act on their own they only want to help organics and seek to better themselves by trying to better understand organics. This whole plot line is extremely wel done, well thought out, and brought to a completely satisfying conclusion even though Legion dies. Reopening thins plot line for no reason post-resolution in the final scene of the game is simply crap writing.

[sdinc009]

Redbelle wrote...

sonicchaos wrote...

JICMAN wrote...

 just to put a twist at the end they should replace star child w/ a keeper since they were race from first cycle and most likely made the reapers 

most hate on this starchild. i'm not saying i'm fond of him, but you can either interpret his as a familiar projection to shepard or a familiar figure of his imagination in the indoctrination theory. so, i don't see him as a threat to the story, but i would really like to have a more insight on that "higher being" if it's the first one.

If the catalyst would just say.

"I'm from the first cycle. We nearly destroyed all life through our choices. Then another species made the same mistake and that nearly destroyed all life too. That's why we hit on the idea of Reaping and preserving species at the high point of their existence before they make the same mistake as us"

I would be able to sympathise to a greater extent why Reapers became, in the Cat's mind, neccessary. Rubbish for the rest of us but just something to explain why Reaping seemed a good idea at the time.

The problem is that the Catalyst doesn't need to say anything. The narrative is not broken having the Reapers origins unexplained. In fact, having their origins a mystery adds to them being an unkowable malevelant antagonist. Trying to explain them or even humanizing them with an attempt to justify their actions for galactic genocide only serves to weaken them as great villains and disrupts the narrative. This is a typical "if it's not broke, don't fix it" scenario. The Reapers DO NOT need a back story to resolve the narrative. The story is about Shepard and the crew of the Normandy, that is the story that needs a resolution. And not some last minute slapped on ending that's some homage to Babylon 5 or the first Deus Ex game because who ever wrote these endings is a fan of them. What's needed is an ending that fits this narrative not one from another story.

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...


The problem is that the Catalyst doesn't need to say anything. The narrative is not broken having the Reapers origins unexplained. In fact, having their origins a mystery adds to them being an unkowable malevelant antagonist. Trying to explain them or even humanizing them with an attempt to justify their actions for galactic genocide only serves to weaken them as great villains and disrupts the narrative. This is a typical "if it's not broke, don't fix it" scenario. The Reapers DO NOT need a back story to resolve the narrative. The story is about Shepard and the crew of the Normandy, that is the story that needs a resolution. And not some last minute slapped on ending that's some homage to Babylon 5 or the first Deus Ex game because who ever wrote these endings is a fan of them. What's needed is an ending that fits this narrative not one from another story.

That's it exactly.  I don't think we ever needed an explanation for them.  I never once asked the question as to why they were there making people goo.  All that mattered was getting rid of them.  That was the story of ME, Shepard kicking reaper butt, not what happened in B5 or anything else.  What happened to Shepard and all the rest-that was what mattered.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 juin 2012 - 03:49 .

[sdinc009]

3DandBeyond wrote...

TaradosGon wrote...

Bioware need not even go so far as to make the reason for the "reapings" a benevolent one. As I've said in other threads, the Catalyst claims the Reapers are his solution to a repeated cycle of violence. Vendetta claims that every cycle follows the same patterns of conflicts. However, Sovereign shows that every cycle is guided down the same path by the Reapers themselves. They are the one common denominator amongst different cycles, with species from different worlds, and species that are genetically and culturally different.

Mordin warns about how conflict with the Krogan could be the salarians fault for giving them technology that they were not culturally ready for. It's irresponsible. Yet, this is what the Reapers do. They leave the relays and the Citadel for sentient life to find, and then it launches their technology forward rapidly in such a short time, and they - as a people - are not ready for it.

The repeated patterns seem to be the fault of the Reapers. The Reapers guide organic life down a path that they desire (as Sovereign claims). I don't buy how the Catalyst can claim to be trying to protect organic life, since a lot of the problems that threaten organic life can arguably be the Catalyst's fault. He launches their technology forward too fast.

If there is one thing that the Cycle does achieve though, it's predictability. The Catalyst says that the Reapers are his solution to chaos, and Javik makes a comment about synthetics living an orderly existence that they understand, while organics live a chaotic existence, striving to find purpose to their lives.

The Catalyst need not give any kind of pretense that he is protecting organic life from synthetic life. He himself is synthetic and is the one responsible for the most widespread devastation of organic life. His motives should merely have been left at the desire for order. That he guides civilizations down a predictable path, ensures that each cycle follows the same pattern, and that when civilizations evolve to a certain point where their path may no longer be predictable (maybe they develop technologies that the Catalyst cannot account for), they are harvested to make new Reapers - transforming chaotic beings into the enforcers of order.

They actually had a more conceivable purpose for harvesting organics that seems to have been abandoned for what they thought was more intellectual.

Sovereign and Harbinger clearly state they are there to kill people.

And the Human reaper in ME2 is described by EDI as their way to reproduce.  It's also said that the reapers come out every 50k years perhaps for this purpose and to eat.  They hide dormant until ready to come back.  They come back when advanced organics reach maturity based upon the tech they left for them.  They are fattening them up for the kill.  It's the same thing that people do with their prey when hunting.  And the prey that's culled is only that which is at a certain level or maturity. 

It's one of the things I think they may have started to allude to with why Quarians are not harvested-they changed it to be because of their immune systems, but I thought they may have originally thought the Quarians had gotten too big-they created a real AI and synthetic life.  They had advanced too far.  They didn't keep their goo, they just killed Quarians.

I also wondered if this wasn't why they seemed to be experimenting with the plague on Omega and looking for genetic mutations.

They also seek to isolate people within the galaxy-like herding animals into a certain confine. They don't kill synthetics (the geth), they use them like herders and they act as overseers.  They don't much like the geth either, but want people to fear them.

Of course, much of this is just conjecture on my part, but it is extrapolated from everything we are told, in codexes, by EDI, by the reapers, in terms they use, and so on.  They harvest organics.  We all know what that means, but we've just taken it to be something else.  You harvest mature crops by reaping.  You harvest mature animals for food.  If this was never intended why the consistent use of terms that are more frequently used to refer to food?  In fact, they do tend to treat people the way a lot of hunters do with their fresh kills.  Hunters string them up to bleed them out and discard the parts they don't use.  There are even some cultures that see partaking of the meat as an honor they do the killed animal and an honor the animal is doing for them.  There are some people, cultures, groups that consider and use the exact term, that food is part of ascension.

Almost all of what the Catalyst says is a retconning of things said by 2 reapers in the game and everything else that could be done in them.  He's as out of place as mammaries on a reaper.

This explanation would have been perfectly fine. The Reapers do what they do to increase their numbers is a perfectly understandable explanation without the stupidity of "organics vs. synthetics" reasoning. It fits very well into the existing narrative. I also seem to recall that the Reapers don't just harvest the advanced civilizations populous, but also their technology. Even though every cycle is led down the same technolological path they can still develop creative advancements. So the Reaping of each cycle serves to increase the Reapers numbers as well as provide better technology making them more resilient with each cycle.

[sonicchaos]

Thanatos144 wrote...

sonicchaos wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Its a game people.

Wow, really?  Thanks for clearing that up.  All the time I thought we were talking about real life, but you've brought clarity that was lacking.  I wish I had this kind of real knowledge.  I might have veered off and thought we were talking about donuts or rodeos or something.  Thanks again.

What you need to wish for is a life. I suggest you find one and maybe you will be more happy in life. I am pretty sure you 6000 posts saying the same thing has been heard now your posting just to feed your ego.

so what's your beef in this, kid? is someone holding a gun to your face or something?

I am 40 so that wuld makwe a damn old kid and I have no beef Just find os absurd you all spend months saying the same thing all day long ....Get out of thre house. Do something. Get a job. Play a sport. DO SOMETHING!  if you this obsessed with a game you have issues.

oh, dude, i'm sorry, i just thought you're just a bored kid. but now i realize that you only mean good. let me just say that we need not your constant atention or your wary edifications. we got it already, you're upset that we're upset. however, you can contribute to this thread any way you like, even as before, but i'll give you the same advice you gave me: "Get out of thre house. Do something. Get a job. Play a sport. DO SOMETHING!  if you this obsessed with a ANYTHING you have issues. " live your life the way you like and let us do the same, mmmkay!?

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

This explanation would have been perfectly fine. The Reapers do what they do to increase their numbers is a perfectly understandable explanation without the stupidity of "organics vs. synthetics" reasoning. It fits very well into the existing narrative. I also seem to recall that the Reapers don't just harvest the advanced civilizations populous, but also their technology. Even though every cycle is led down the same technolological path they can still develop creative advancements. So the Reaping of each cycle serves to increase the Reapers numbers as well as provide better technology making them more resilient with each cycle.

I tend to think that eating isn't necessarily the same of course as we see it.  Other races can have other nutrient needs.  Why not the processing power of people's minds, or their very DNA?  They hinted at a lot of things the reapers were looking for and human diversity and ability was a constant theme.  It was something Mordin said, Javik implied, and even the Collectors seemed to be after, especially from Shepard. 

And yes, the reapers take everything supposedly-all the resources.  I think they gain something from every reaping.  Or, at least that's what I thought it could mean.