2730 réponses à ce sujet

[Jobasha]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

"Organics would create Synthetics that would destroy Organics. So, I created Synthetics to destroy Organics before they had the time to create Synthetics that would destroy Organics."

Makes perfect sense!

The race that created the Glowing Kid VI and the Reapers wanted to avoid synthetics wiped out ALL organic life to the very last cell. With the Reapers there is a balance and organic life continues to exist, even though the most advanced civilisations get routinely wiped out before they are able to destroy themselves.

It does make sense, in a very brutal and cynical way. You do not have to agree with this solution, but it does have its logic.

"And the Quarians and the Geth?". Well, since Shepard is the greatest hero ever, he was able to bring them together. Apparently at the time the Reapers were created, nobody had ever been able to broker peace between synthetics and organics. It is something Shepard should have been allowed to bring to the table, yes, and I would add this thing to the many failings of the ending.
But I would not add the "circular logic" argument, I strongly disagree with that line of criticism, I just don't see the lack of logic in that, of all things.

Besides, it is very possible someone will sooner or later create an "evil" AI anyway (and tbh this is hinted by the VI Kid).

[Exolyps]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Archren wrote...

I realize I'm a bit of a newcomer to these forums, but we all have to start somewhere, right?

Bottom line up front: I get where they (the ME3 developers) are coming from, but I don't feel the execution of their intent was successful.

I haven't read all the comments in this thread beyond maybe page 3, but I think the general tone of utter outrage carries on right through. I tend to agree, although to a degree I empathize just a tiny little bit with the developers. I'm a photography student, and have on more than one occasion been crushed by critiques of my work. I was in love with my own project, but my audience (teachers and/or peers) really wasn't feeling it. One of my teachers phrased it very succintly: "Sometimes you just have to kill your baby."

I think that in their own minds, this was a phenomenal ending, and that it was a way to wrap up the trilogy but allow for speculation for other, related stories in the future (I don't have the link handy, but I do remember reading somewhere that the developers are considering pursuing more Mass Effect games in the future, although perhaps not Shepard-centered). It was not well received by their intended audience.. maybe it is a matter of we just don't "get it" (a la Evangelion) - but that doesn't change the fact that ending leaves the player with more of a sense of despair than one of completion. I understand not filling us in on ALL the details (allowing room for speculation), but I think they took that a little too far.

Anyhoo, apologies for the book, but I felt my take on it needed a little more explanation.

What puzzles me Is that how the same people that created the rest of the franchise, all the stories, all the characters, all the amazing moments, create an ending that misses common sense by light years, and creates plot holes that could swallow the mother of all Tresher Maws.

It makes no sense. It is utterly and completely divorced from everything else they have created.

You can't even argue that the ME3 team was "too action orientated", or that the game was bad. Even ME3 offered a wealth of different outcomes, tons of memorable moments, great character progression. The team was right on track.
It would be some consolation if they just took the whole game into the wrong direction (like they did with DA2), but it's the fact that ME3 was so stellar, that makes its ending so shockingly bad.

But it does makes sense, perfect sense, if you're believing the indoctrionation theory.

This video explains it all.


That said, even if I believe it makes sense, I don't like it, I want the full game now, I want the ending now.
But I suppose they just wanted to indoctrionate everyone. Make everyone believe this is how it ends, just like shepard believes it.

I wonder how much more gameplay there is left that haven't been released. Another hour, 5 hours? or more?

[Chromie]

phototed wrote...
I thought the lack of a "final" boss was perfect because the main enemy in the series were the reapers. 

I totally agree with this guy.

"
5. The resurgence and emphasis on The Illusive Man during the resolution as well as the lack of interaction with the Reapers and, more specifically, Harbinger,  detracts from the Reapers as the antagonist. A lot of people expected a "boss fight" of sorts or a closing discussion with Harbinger at the end. This is a perfectly understandable and legitimate expectation. During the climax, we are almost defeated by Harbinger, the avatar for the Reapers as antagonist, however, during the resolution, it is the indoctrinated Illusive Man that takes takes center stage. Though he unwittingly is an assisting force for the Reapers, he is not directly representative of them, merely their influence. TIM's role is more fitting that of an obstacle to be overcome during the rising action.  "

http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1 

[Abrax894]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

Abrax894 wrote...

I just posted a reply in a different forum, I would be interested to hear comments on it. http://social.biowar...6&poll_id=28989

It's right at the bottom at this point.

Found it.. and completely agree.. he doesn't want it to be forgettable? I WISH I could forget! I feel lied to and cheated and this ending destroyed everything Mass Effect stood for.

LOL ok so I have more than 1 post over there, the latest 1 was what I wanted comments on.

[Jobasha]

Skelter192 wrote...

phototed wrote...
I thought the lack of a "final" boss was perfect because the main enemy in the series were the reapers. 

I totally agree with this guy.

"
5. The resurgence and emphasis on The Illusive Man during the resolution as well as the lack of interaction with the Reapers and, more specifically, Harbinger,  detracts from the Reapers as the antagonist. A lot of people expected a "boss fight" of sorts or a closing discussion with Harbinger at the end. This is a perfectly understandable and legitimate expectation. During the climax, we are almost defeated by Harbinger, the avatar for the Reapers as antagonist, however, during the resolution, it is the indoctrinated Illusive Man that takes takes center stage. Though he unwittingly is an assisting force for the Reapers, he is not directly representative of them, merely their influence. TIM's role is more fitting that of an obstacle to be overcome during the rising action.  "

http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1 

Exactly my thoughts.

[Fulgrim88]

Exolyps wrote...

But it does makes sense, perfect sense, if you're believing the indoctrionation theory.

This video explains it all.


That said, even if I believe it makes sense, I don't like it, I want the full game now, I want the ending now.
But I suppose they just wanted to indoctrionate everyone. Make everyone believe this is how it ends, just like shepard believes it.

I wonder how much more gameplay there is left that haven't been released. Another hour, 5 hours? or more?

I know that vid.

And while it does make sense, I can't bring myself to support the Indoc-Theory.

Because what it basically says is that Bioware deliberately trolled us, just to, for lack of a better word extort  money from those who can't bear seeing their favorite series end like that. For me, that would be actually worse than botched up writing. While it's certainly hard to imagine how they could've lost touch like that so close to the finish line, at least it would be an honest mistake.

If they were to release a statement now, saying "Bahaha we trolled you good! Now pay 15$ to make the pain go away", I don't think I could ever forgive them

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 16 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[ZeroCrewX]

JasonTan87 wrote...

UKillMeLongTime wrote...

rather see him fired

That's mean.  

I think he genuinely thought that it was a decent ending.  That's the thing about being overly exposed to your work; you become blind to the flaws because you don't have the creative distance to see things objectively.  He did not realize that it was terrible when watched fresh because he was caught up with all the clever concepts.

In any case, he has to make amends, one way or another.  Either through fixing it somehow, or at the very least acknowledging that it was terrible.

I both agree and disagree with you.

You are correct that when its something you're making, its very hard to see it the way others would, which is why most times you're the only one noticing its flaws or niceties. That said however, you don't become PROJECT MANAGER if you haven't displayed certain qualities that you're different, devoted to your work, and down right successful! 

I kinda liked Casey, seemed cool - now it seems he was just a big fat liar, and guess what, liars don't deserve their jobs.

I'll give him the chance to make amends, and he better ****ing blow my mind otherwise goodbye.

And on a side note, I never liked Mac Walters, and now, with his gibberish trashy notes he ruins the best series I have ever played with the most amazing gamma of characters out there...... This my friend, is unnaceptable and I will not lie down and just hope for the best, people learn when they feel the backlash of messing up. And he sure as hell will feel mine. 

Before Chris sweeps down and bans me, that isnt a thread nor a curse, its what thousands of people are thinking and doing for the past week. But dont worry : Lots of speculation from everyone eh?! 

[beserker7]

After reading this I see they "lost touch" or never were in touch, in the case of the lead writers, with the established ME formula and fanbase.

Taking out dialog from the end for Anderson and the Starchild, but why even a Starchild?, terrible writing device! Then Casey saying anything after this will be before or during ME3, when if your going to have an ending like that the only thing people will pay for is after the events of ME3 content, where is their head?

I say they lost touch because they delievered a depression filled, logic-free, terribly dark ending. Even if you want to invent the Starchild for last 10 minutes, give little explanation of what it is, and then a short clip of Normandy crap ending, DID YOU REALLY HAVE TO BLOW UP THE CITADEL AND ALL THE RELAYS!?  I MEAN, IT WASN'T DARK ENOUGH, THE WHOLE REAPER INVASION, YOU HAVE TO LITERALLY DESTROY EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ME UNIVERSE!?

Sorry for the caps, but I get so angry that they don't get that; "saving the day", "slaying the dragon", if you will, is why we love stories and games. I'm all for an ending with some sacrifice, but come on. You take Shepard, Anderson, the Citadel, all the Relays, countless lives in the process. Thats just as bad as if the Reapers just assimilated everyone and started cycle over again.

Final word, Starchild was terrible...A Harbinger/Illusive Man combo, Iike Sarin/Soverign at the end of ME1 fight, Sherpard winning and riding off into sunset type ending might have been a little cliche, but it would have been solid good closure. You could have had a Shepard sitting on a throne in the Citadel controlling Reapers Renegade ending, Boom done!

Everyone from the writers, directors, owners, etc should have been in the frame of mind of finding the end in the beginning, meaning ME1, when deciding how to end the series. If you'd have told Lucas to kill Luke and half the galaxy at the end of Return of the Jedi, you would have been laughed out of the room and run out of town!

Modifié par beserker7, 16 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[parared]

Dustin1280 wrote...

I just cancelled my SWTOR account and don't plan to purchase any DLC from bioware ever again.

I just did that also, with a note saying that I can't concentrate on another BW game while waiting for the ME3 ending we deserved ...

[Alexius]

All-a-Mort wrote...

Bioware rationale for the endings sounds to me more like they made too many choices possible in ME and ME2, realised they had no idea how to tie it all together and basically decided not to bother trying.
[...]

Although I do think they tangled themselves up in an awful lot of variations and needed to unify everything a bit (like turning Udina councilor no matter what you chose and the rachni being there all the same), I don't think they were lazy.

However, I do think that, despite it all, they do consider the ending to be final and left for us to interpret.

[Someone With Mass]

You know what? Trying to make the deaths of trillions at the hands of the Reapers look like a necessity is like trying to justify the Holocaust.

I hope you realize that, Mac.

The Reapers are chaotic evil. They don't need an excuse to do what they do at the ending.

[thebatmanreborn]

The reaper logic does make sense...because they are insane. There is no logic rationale for killing synthetics with organics so those organics don't create synthetics that kill them. This means the starkid was insane. It's own logic flawed. So you can't trust a word he says. And I still don't like the ending.

[Abrax894]

parared wrote...

Dustin1280 wrote...

I just cancelled my SWTOR account and don't plan to purchase any DLC from bioware ever again.

I just did that also, with a note saying that I can't concentrate on another BW game while waiting for the ME3 ending we deserved ...

LOL, now all the people admin'ing SWTOR will being going to the ME3 dev team going "WTF did you do?!?!?"

[Wattoes]

All-a-Mort wrote...
Bioware rationale for the endings sounds to me more like they made too many choices possible in ME and ME2, realised they had no idea how to tie it all together and basically decided not to bother trying.
[...]

Its certainly a tricky issue.  You can only make so many zones and planets that need to have a universal story.

It all makes sense and is perfectly fine when you just follow the story for what it is and your own little tale.  The problem is its so hard to ignore that if you were the opposite playstyle, you would still be in the situation (albiet with different dialogue).

[Jobasha]

I don't mind the Citadel and the Relays destroyed, after all they were made by the Reapers to better harvest us and it is only right that the Galaxy should begin anew without them, especially if you pick the Destroy ending. Nor do I mind Shepard dying, I expected it to eventually happen since the ME1 days.

I don't even think BW should feel particularly bound in their writing by the fanbase expectations, that usually leads to extremely conservative attitudes and that is a bad thing.

What puzzles me instead is that the endings are extremely disloyal to the story itself, to the story the authors themselves had created and to the way of delivering it established till the point when Harbinger strikes you down.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

thebatmanreborn wrote...

The reaper logic does make sense...because they are insane. There is no logic rationale for killing synthetics with organics so those organics don't create synthetics that kill them. This means the starkid was insane. It's own logic flawed. So you can't trust a word he says. And I still don't like the ending.

Yeah so what kind of hero goes along with a madman who has killed trillions?  Not my shepard.

The heroic response to the Starkid is something along the line of

"well now I know you are insane,just wanted to make sure"

Or

"I refuse to choose NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF MY GALAXY!"

Either of these would have made more sense.

[Brahlis]

Nobody thought, "Well then why don't you ****ing have the Reapers destroy Synthetics?" when the Star Child explained his logic?

It makes no sense to "harvest" organics when you have a force that powerful. None.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Okay I just read the part where they talked about removing a boss because it was too"video gamey" should someone maybe tell bioware that they make VIDEO GAMES?!

[beserker7]

beserker7 wrote...

After reading this I see they "lost touch" or never were in touch, in the case of the lead writers, with the established ME formula and fanbase.

Taking out dialog from the end for Anderson and the Starchild, but why even a Starchild?, terrible writing device! Then Casey saying anything after this will be before or during ME3, when if your going to have an ending like that the only thing people will pay for is after the events of ME3 content, where is their head?

I say they lost touch because they delievered a depression filled, logic-free, terribly dark ending. Even if you want to invent the Starchild for last 10 minutes, give little explanation of what it is, and then a short clip of Normandy crap ending, DID YOU REALLY HAVE TO BLOW UP THE CITADEL AND ALL THE RELAYS!?  I MEAN, IT WASN'T DARK ENOUGH, THE WHOLE REAPER INVASION, YOU HAVE TO LITERALLY DESTROY EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ME UNIVERSE!?

Sorry for the caps, but I get so angry that they don't get that; "saving the day", "slaying the dragon", if you will, is why we love stories and games. I'm all for an ending with some sacrifice, but come on. You take Shepard, Anderson, the Citadel, all the Relays, countless lives in the process. Thats just as bad as if the Reapers just assimilated everyone and started cycle over again.

Final word, Starchild was terrible...A Harbinger/Illusive Man combo, Iike Sarin/Soverign at the end of ME1 fight, Sherpard winning and riding off into sunset type ending might have been a little cliche, but it would have been solid good closure. You could have had a Shepard sitting on a throne in the Citadel controlling Reapers Renegade ending, Boom done!

Everyone from the writers, directors, owners, etc should have been in the frame of mind of finding the end in the beginning, meaning ME1, when deciding how to end the series. If you'd have told Lucas to kill Luke and half the galaxy at the end of Return of the Jedi, you would have been laughed out of the room and run out of town!

Bump for sanity!

[ZeroCrewX]

Sharkey1337 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

@JessicaMerizan If only one of those implications wasn't that Tali was stranded on a mysterious planet w/o Shepard... 8

Jessica Merizan ‏
@Dr_Endless so choose red and go save her

Wow, definitely one of the biggest hints she's thrown out yet, definitely hints at post-ending DLC.

Bull****! 

Lies lies and MORE LIES from Bioware! I'll believe it when I see it!

Holding the line.

[Om3r7a]

I'm still trying to think of what was so hard for organics to understand about the reapers. We go for 2 1/2 games of being told that we can't possibly comprehend why they would wipe out all organic life, and then it turns out to be something really really simple. Sorry, might seem kind of random but it just popped into my head while reading a few comments in this thread.

[Abrax894]

You know, it's reading stuff like Casey Hudson' interview and others with BW, interviews that simply DON'T have anything to do with what most of the fans are saying, that makes me wonder WTF is going on over there. Everyone in the media and BW seem to be intentionally ignoring the reason 90% of their fans are ****ing at them and only looking at the "change the ending" side. They don't look at WHY we want the ending changed. If they only included some context to our complaints instead of just labeling it all as 'entitlement', people might actually understand our complaints. The fact that only a few media sources are actually LISTENING is just icing on the cake. Are we the fans, speaking a different language? Are our complaints so difficult to understand? I know I'm not the only one that has repeatedly laid out exactly WHY we are upset and very simply language. You don't have to be a hardcore gamer or ME fan to understand our complaints. This all is frustrating...... I find it difficult to believe that this is all some big misunderstanding, that people could be this blind and stupid by accident. I hate to be 'THAT GUY' who screams 'CONSPIRACY' but really? I don't think this movement could be any more clear in it's motives and the reason behind those motives.

I think the overall complaint that is MOST clear about this is 'GIVE US CHOICE', which has been the overriding theme throughout ALL of ME. Most of us can understand Shep dying. Just make our choices MEAN something and some honest closure, both of which we were promised and were selling points. Pretty clear to me. Is this concept so difficult to understand? Judge for yourself. Go read as many articles about this as you can. I've seen a handful that back us, Forbes being one of them. The rest have gone out of their way to call us 'entitled gamers' and whiny brats. Even on some gaming sites who should know better. So I ask you, is this universal stupidity and willful ignorance or something more?

[CRISIS1717]

Does anyone see this as a conflict of interest when IGN and GTTV are so heavily linked in the promotion of Mass Effect 3?

[Darth Taurus]

Archren wrote...

Darth Taurus wrote...

Don't lose hope people!
Hold the line everyone!

Cheers from Brazil

Always fun to find another Brazilian... although technically I guess I'm an expat (lived in the US or other English-speaking countries since I was 3).

If you were born in Brazil, them you are Brazilian.
Your parents are Brazilian?

[Lurchibald]

Didn't want a VIDEO GAME to feel VIDEO GAMEY!? Right... just like people don't want KFC to taste like KFC.... I'm sorry, but that is just stupid.