25 réponses à ce sujet

[Stargazer86]

On my first playthrough, I picked a Daelish Elf. Thus, Duncan was the one to rescue me and save my life from the blight affecting my body. This provided me with a different view of him when going through the game. He was the sage mentor who sacrificed his life for the greater good.

However, one thing always bothered me, and that was his murder of Ser Jory during the Joining. There have been several threads on this, I believe, but it was definitely a fact that I didn't think fit in with the image I had of Duncan. But I more or less ignored it and the insight it provided into his character.

Until I played through as a Human Noble. 

For those of you who haven't played that particular origin, here are the basics: Arl Howe kills your family and you attempt to escape the family castle with your mother. Upon reaching the exit, you discover your father bleeding to death on the floor. Your mother refuses to leave him to die by himself, and so Duncan shows up and offers to take you with him while they stay behind.

Now, that's all well and good, except that Duncan basically -extorts- your dying father in order to get you to join the Grey Wardens. Here you are, in your besieged castle, members of your family having been killed around you, and Duncan insists that as payment for -saving your life-, that you have to join the Grey Wardens despite your father's earlier insistance that you do not. He is DYING in front of you, and Duncan has the sort of GALL to say that he'll only rescue you if you join? Then both he and your parents suddenly spout several lines about the blight being a "greater threat" while here I am, thinking to myself "...are you people -insane-? Am I the only one who noticed people being slaughtered around here?".

So, yes, Duncan is now not quite the 'hero' I had thought him to be. I now believe him to be far more cold and calculating than he really appears. A ruthless mind behind the guise of a friendly, sage mentor. I wouldn't put it past him to have ARRANGED everything that took place simply to get you into the Wardens, and that he faked his own death because he is somehow the -TRUE- villain.

Hrmm... <_<

[kesayo2]

And if you've seen episodes 1-3, Obi-wan is no Obi-wan either.

[marshalleck]

Grey Wardens.



What do you suppose "Grey" in the name refers to?

[Stargazer86]

marshalleck wrote...

Grey Wardens.

What do you suppose "Grey" in the name refers to?

The color of their clothing? Perhaps they dye their hair?

And Episodes 1-3 never, ever count.

[Recidiva]

Yup. Duncan in multiple playthroughs shows himself to be very pragmatic, very grey, and a manipulator of high skill.



But even the first time, killing Ser Jory made me literally gasp and drop my controller and cover my mouth.



This is not a "good" man.



But he's a great character.

[Brass_Buckles]

I don't know. He had to kill Ser Jory, because Ser Jory drew his sword. At that point, it was going to either be Ser Jory or Duncan--or maybe you or Alistair. The man was backing out of a solemn oath and he might have gone on to tell about the secret ritual. That could have ruined everything for the Wardens in Ferelden. I'm not saying I liked that action, but there's a reason that Duncan apologized when he stabbed the man. It wasn't something he wanted to do, it was something he had to do.

It's apparent to me that while no one in the game is purely good, Duncan does go out of his way to rescue your character almost every time in the origins. Of course, even if he's "saving" you, it is also a slow death sentence. But, at least it's an honor to be a Grey Warden, chosen to fight against the Blight regardless of your personal circumstances.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:17 .

[Johnny Jaded]

no one ever said Duncan was the kind and sagely mentor. I've played every origin and Duncan came across as calculating and opportunistic in both Dalish and Human noble (was far more friendly towards city elf and dwarf commoner)

as for the "grey" in Grey Warden, I think it's fairly obvious it's meant to reflect the moral choices they make and they're "whatever it takes to defeat the Blight" attitude

and I think George Lucas might disagree about episodes 1-3 not counting, no matter how bad they may be

[Recidiva]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

I don't know. He had to kill Ser Jory, because Ser Jory drew his sword. At that point, it was going to either be Ser Jory or Duncan--or maybe you or Alistair. The man was backing out of a solemn oath and he might have gone on to tell about the secret ritual. That could have ruined everything for the Wardens in Ferelden. I'm not saying I liked that action, but there's a reason that Duncan apologized when he stabbed the man. It wasn't something he wanted to do, it was something he had to do.

It's apparent to me that while no one in the game is purely good, Duncan does go out of his way to rescue your character almost every time in the origins. Of course, even if he's "saving" you, it is also a slow death sentence. But, at least it's an honor to be a Grey Warden, chosen to fight against the Blight regardless of your personal circumstances.

He killed Ser Jory to keep the secret of the Joining, not because Ser Jory was any level of threat.  If you look at Ser Jory, he's only drawing a sword to defend himself  because he wants to run.  He's...backing up...which is why he's against a wall when Duncan runs him through.  They didn't have Ser Jory even make a decent swing, Duncan just sauntered in, batted his blade away and ran him through.  

There's nothing in Ser Jory's body language about "battle" - it's all about "escape" and "panic" and that's intentional.

[Jisai]

Duncan is a fine example of the kind of personality it takes to be not only a good leader, but one whom has to make the hard choices for the 'greater good'.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Ser Jory struck me as one whom should have never been there in the first place.
He seemed a skittish knight, and family man, whom showed resentment about how 'hard' he had worked to gain Duncan's approval, and how he had thought that he'd 'done enough' to prove himself, but yet the Warden's still wanted more. He would have become a liability, as it was obvious that when his mental state seeing the first Warden-to-be fall dead before him began to unravel, that he had to be slain because he now created a situation where all involved in the ritual would be at risk by drawing his sword and pointing it threateningly.
I think the best quote so far in the game that has had the most resounding impact has been in the Mage Origin when the battle ended in the Fade and the PC was conversing with the real demon:

"Keep your wits about you mage... The true tests, never end..."  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Your post is the reason why I like Duncan. He is badass in every sense of the word, even though he appeared only briefly.

+ the beard.

[Zenthar Aseth]

I disagree about the human noble origin displaying Duncan as bad.



I mean, honestly. He isn't extorting anyone. He isn't being a meanyhead. The PC isn't 10 years old anymore, obviously he makes the last call... Duncan is just asking the father permission as a courtesy.

[AtreiyaN7]

Ahem, you do realize that Duncan could have left Teyrn Bryce to die, right? That would have been the most "pragmatic" thing to do. How do you explain Duncan trying to save a dying man if he weren't basically a good person at his core? He could've left Bryce to die and could have told you anything he wanted if he were being a pragmatic, cold-hearted bastard. Instead, he tried to your father to safety, and asked his permission (well, in my view that's what he was doing) to recruit you after getting you and your mother to safety.

What the teyrn says before you go:

Teryn Bryce Cousland: Howe thinks he'll use this chaos...to advance himself. Make him wrong, pup, see that justice is done!
Teryn Bryce Cousland: Our family...always does our duty first. The darkspawn must be defeated. You must go, for your own sake, and for Ferelden's.

I think Teyrn Bryce understands that it's necessary, that it's your family's duty, and that there's more at stake than getting revenge on Howe (world hanging in the balance, hellooooo). *shrug* And in the eternal Jory debate...Jory swung first - end of story. If you think that's harsh, you should try to read up on feudal Japan and the samurai class - JUST drawing your blade in the presence of the wrong person could warrant death. The Jory incident wasn't murder. Murder is gutting someone defenseless who's NOT swinging a huge sword around (however weakly).

[cglasgow]

Generally speaking, under medieval law merely drawing your sword was the legal equivalent of a murderous attack, and from that moment on anything anyone did to you was self-defense.



A trained knight especially should know this. Pulling steel (unless you're, y'know, showing the armorer where the nick is on your sword or something) is an announcement of lethal intent, period. Even when you're defending yourself, you only do so after the other guy is showing bare steel himself. Otherwise, you started the fight.

[Pennoyer]

That is the kind of man you need fighting the Darkspawn.

[Thomas9321]

By Andraste's Holy knickers! Please don't let this become another thread about whether Duncan killing Jory was justified!

[Brass_Buckles]

Recidiva wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...

I don't know. He had to kill Ser Jory, because Ser Jory drew his sword. At that point, it was going to either be Ser Jory or Duncan--or maybe you or Alistair. The man was backing out of a solemn oath and he might have gone on to tell about the secret ritual. That could have ruined everything for the Wardens in Ferelden. I'm not saying I liked that action, but there's a reason that Duncan apologized when he stabbed the man. It wasn't something he wanted to do, it was something he had to do.

It's apparent to me that while no one in the game is purely good, Duncan does go out of his way to rescue your character almost every time in the origins. Of course, even if he's "saving" you, it is also a slow death sentence. But, at least it's an honor to be a Grey Warden, chosen to fight against the Blight regardless of your personal circumstances.

He killed Ser Jory to keep the secret of the Joining, not because Ser Jory was any level of threat.  If you look at Ser Jory, he's only drawing a sword to defend himself  because he wants to run.  He's...backing up...which is why he's against a wall when Duncan runs him through.  They didn't have Ser Jory even make a decent swing, Duncan just sauntered in, batted his blade away and ran him through.  

There's nothing in Ser Jory's body language about "battle" - it's all about "escape" and "panic" and that's intentional.

Yes, but a cornered wolf is a dangerous wolf.  Being panicked and wanting to escape doesn't mean you won't fight when cornered.  Jory was cornered when he hit that wall, and in drawing his sword, he'd already made it clear he was willing to fight for his escape.  Do you honestly believe that he wasn't willing to fight Duncan and kill him if he had to in order to get away?  Aside from that, he would never have kept the secret and might have tried to raise an attack against the Grey Wardens (of course this would have been assuming that Ostagar had not fallen).  Again, I'm not saying Duncan was pristinely good, but he knew it was too dangerous for everyone to allow Jory to live.  It's horrifying to see, and I'm sure it's one of the main reasons your character drinks down the blood without hesitation afterward.  What annoys me is that nothing you say will make Jory less of a coward.

I agree that Duncan is rather calculating at times, though I didn't find him more so with the Dalish origin than elsewhere (after all, he saves your life, and the only way to slow the spread of the taint within you is to make you a Grey Warden--this is not a particularly calculating action on his part, so much as it is using available resources.  You're going to die anyway if you don't become a Warden, right?  And the mirror will spread the taint if it is not destroyed; it can't be de-tainted).  Even considering his skill at manipulation, I still don't see him as "bad" or "evil."  He's doing what is necessary for the greater good; he may have to make morally grey actions, but is he not a hero in the end for trying to save Ferelden?

[Ulyn]

I gather there are flame-wars on this so maybe it's a bit naive to state the 'obvious' - at least to me - but Duncan makes sense as a pretty archetypal "Dragon Age Style Hero."



They weren't going for a KOTOR mood, in the dialogue or the plot. On a superficial level they made it harder to determine what the "goodie-goodie light side points" dialogue options were; but beyond that they also left you in situations where choosing such options - as in Orzammar - would actually lead to evil.



They also beat you over the head with the idea of Grey Warden pragmatism: "the greater good" is repeated many times, as is "Grey Wardens do what they must." A capsule description of the order would probably involve both of those points.



Without meaning offence to people who can't accept it in their interpretation of the game - it's preposterous to suggest that Duncan acted in "self defence" at the joining; Jory did. Duncan acted in defence of the Grey Wardens and the realm; at different points in the game it's implied that a majority of recruits die during the joining; starting from a scarce pool of recruits to begin with, that's an achilles heel of the Wardens worth killing to protect if necessary.



Now, there are problems with this; firstly, and especially for good-oriented players of the game, the Wardens might just be open about about the sacrifices and wait for all the noble-hearted suicidal Level 5 Paladins who inhabit fantasy kingdoms to join anyway



Secondly and more seriously, Duncan could've said, drink the damn thing or I'll kill you. Alternatively they could have shrunk the plotholes by adding something in the plot or codex about how the Warden cocktail doesn't work properly if it isn't voluntarily drunk.



My version here - and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the point - is that the player is intended to be shocked by the killing but understand it as unavoidable - Alistair, after all, would surely object otherwise. That in turn means that letting the secret out is, in game logic, something that would probably ruin the Wardens.



As gamers we suspend our nit-picking all the time. Enemies don't constantly retreat until they have superior force, because if they did, CRPGs and MMORPGs would be unplayable. Your camps are always identical. You carry around 40 suits of armour and the only one who notices is Shale. When your whole party travels around the world, only 4 people fight in the random encounters. There is a difference between suspending disbelief in "established conventions of gaming" and in the plot, but most fantasy universes also have glaring logic holes.



Why didn't Gandalf use the eagles to fly to Mount Doom with the ring? Why don't science fiction or fantasy wars usually make much actual hard-science or military sense? When you have ultra-complicated things like politics and society being woven out of thin air, it'll always be easy to nitpick and wiser not to.

[CChocobo]

Duncan came off as a great character. He saved me from a castle where i would have died.

Yes not because he's kind but he needed me as a Grey Warden. I like his way of thinking, he does what is necessary to get the job done, he doesn't **** around.

Oh plus, his beard is full of win. So that adds to his awesomeness.

[Ulyn]

Oh, I forgot to return to the noble origin Duncan issue. I would say it's probably the most "oh my" thing Duncan does besides run Jory through, but again, it's not exactly difficult to justify; he's already read your mediclorian count and realized you're the type of Human Noble who can clear 10 major quest areas and then kill a tainted elder god.

It might not have been be the most pleasant time to turn the recruiting screw on Mr. and Mrs. C, particularly in light of the threat to Highever's line of succession, but he's basically taking his opportunity to recruit Kal-El Cousland when the Army of Darkness is poised to conquer the world and turn it all into a large scale enaction of the Broodmother chapter of the Dead Trenches. That's immoral? Not where I'm sitting.  And neither parent sounds all that horrified.

Actually, if there's anything that requires me to squint a bit at the plotline there it's that neither you nor Duncan knocks the Teyrna over the back of the head and carries her away; an unconscious woman is easier to sneak out of a siege than a messily dying man, and pissed parents are better than dead ones.  However, glorious pseudo-Anglo-Saxon noble mores, to death and beyond, yada yada.

Modifié par Ulyn, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:03 .

[Curlain]

To me the Duncan you meet in the game is in many ways the embodiment of what a Grey Warden is intended to be, an intelligent and highly battle-skilled individual (be it a warrior, rogue or mage) who at the end of the day is completely focused on and dedicated to defeating the darkspawn and ending the Blight.

I think he is a decent guy, and if possible he would likely avoid extreme actions or questionable recruitment techniques (if only because they could cause resentment towards the Wardens as a whole) but for him and all Grey Wardens the ends on the whole really do justify the means (to an extent, I doubt it's quite as simple as this, but this is probably the general overidding ethos of the Wardens).

He is committed to ending the Blight, and will use whatever techinque, strategy or action it takes to do it.

(however, I did like the idea of the OP that he could turn up in the sequel and turn out to be the true villian of DA, that would be awesome, though unlikely )

Modifié par Curlain, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[Baalzie]

Yep.... The Grey Wardens even Employed Blood Magic on Sveral occasions... NOT using it would be criminal in the minds of Grey Wardens...

ANYTHING to win...

The ONLY thing that matters is defeating the Blight, Killing the Archdemon...

They would sacrifice whole towns to do so, every single one, IF it was needed, not just as an easier way out... They aren't sociopaths with a liking of innocent blood... Well SOME were, read the list of names in Wardens Keep... Read the nicknames some had... Yah real Goody 2 shoes eh? *cough*



Duncan was a good man! He probably hurt alot inside Killing Ser Jory...

He was devastated to see Cailan fall...

He cared enough to keep Alistair out of battles a tad too much...

But he was also pragmatic, and knew that sometimes You have to do what ever it takes(!) to win...



And no he won't turn up and be a villain...

The darkspawn don't cater to Wardens, they kill them! They seek them out and kill them more than others if they can!

Since only wardens are a threat to an Archdemon...

[Setz69]

Baalzie wrote...

Yep.... The Grey Wardens even Employed Blood Magic on Sveral occasions... NOT using it would be criminal in the minds of Grey Wardens...
ANYTHING to win...
The ONLY thing that matters is defeating the Blight, Killing the Archdemon...
They would sacrifice whole towns to do so, every single one, IF it was needed, not just as an easier way out... They aren't sociopaths with a liking of innocent blood... Well SOME were, read the list of names in Wardens Keep... Read the nicknames some had... Yah real Goody 2 shoes eh? *cough*

Duncan was a good man! He probably hurt alot inside Killing Ser Jory...
He was devastated to see Cailan fall...
He cared enough to keep Alistair out of battles a tad too much...
But he was also pragmatic, and knew that sometimes You have to do what ever it takes(!) to win...

And no he won't turn up and be a villain...
The darkspawn don't cater to Wardens, they kill them! They seek them out and kill them more than others if they can!
Since only wardens are a threat to an Archdemon...

Im not so sure he kept Allistair out of combat for the sake of Allistairs life. But more so that he always had the "We have an heir to the throne" card incase he needed it. Perhaps to prevent a repeat of the wardens getting exiled from Fereldan.

Duncan never came off as a kind soul to me. He wasn't an ass or anything, but he did what he had to do. Grey Wardens do not have to be good people, they just need to care about stopping the blight.

[Freezingfire]

I still think the human noble origin is the weakest tie in to the greater story. Howe just killed your entire family, the only logical thing to have on your mind is vengeance. Not killing orcs.

[Recidiva]

Ulyn wrote...

Oh, I forgot to return to the noble origin Duncan issue. I would say it's probably the most "oh my" thing Duncan does besides run Jory through, but again, it's not exactly difficult to justify; he's already read your mediclorian count and realized you're the type of Human Noble who can clear 10 major quest areas and then kill a tainted elder god.

It might not have been be the most pleasant time to turn the recruiting screw on Mr. and Mrs. C, particularly in light of the threat to Highever's line of succession, but he's basically taking his opportunity to recruit Kal-El Cousland when the Army of Darkness is poised to conquer the world and turn it all into a large scale enaction of the Broodmother chapter of the Dead Trenches. That's immoral? Not where I'm sitting.  And neither parent sounds all that horrified.

Actually, if there's anything that requires me to squint a bit at the plotline there it's that neither you nor Duncan knocks the Teyrna over the back of the head and carries her away; an unconscious woman is easier to sneak out of a siege than a messily dying man, and pissed parents are better than dead ones.  However, glorious pseudo-Anglo-Saxon noble mores, to death and beyond, yada yada.

ABSOLUTELY. 

I wanted to brain Lady Cousland and carry her off, drag Tamlin off to explain himself to the Keeper and ESPECIALLY clock Alistair one when he wouldn't let me take the final blow.

If I'm that damned good, and I clearly am, I should have been able to.

[Rita Torres]

i am playing the Dalish elf now, and this time I liked Duncan even less than in Human Noble Origin. His story about PC being poisoned did not work for my elf. She wanted to stay with her clan and was refusing to join Grey Wardens until he used the Right of Conscription and actually forced my PC to go with him. I understand that PC has to become a Grey Warden, no matter what, but I was wondering, how often Wardens forced people to join them?