64 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Raltar wrote...

It is difficult to understand his apparent paranoia with Orlais because you weren't there(even alive) when Orlais occupied Ferelden. He was. He experienced it first hand. It's difficult to let that sort of thing go when he lived the nightmare. I don't think Loghain had anything to do with Howe murdering the human noble's family, however. That was all 100% Howe, as far as I can tell.

Even if the Couslands were conspiring with Orlais (and did Howe even bother to counterfeit proof on this accusation?), the entire family, including women, children, and servants, were murdered in their beds, by a man who was welcomed into their home as a friend.  Loghain then proceeded to give Howe the title of Teyrn of Highever AND the arl of Denerim...you really think Loghain had NO idea what was going on? 

And when Howe decided to quell the riots in the Denerim alienage by locking the elves in and doing fun stuff like slaughtering defenseless elven children in the orphanage...Loghain's response was to SELL the rest of the elves to Tevinter.  Awesome leadership skills, right there.

Loghain apologists are amazing.  Next please tell me how Arthas and Sephiroth are really just misunderstood heroes.

[Hunter246]

one he kill your family

two he left you for dead and killed nearly all grey wardens

three he poisoned the earl or as good as

[Raltar]

It is possible. Or he could have turned a blind eye to what Howe did because he needed Howe, whom he knew to be loyal, because there would be civil unrest after the death of the king(who should not have been on the front lines) and the more support he had, the more support he would gain due to the influence of the support he already had. Or, he could have been involved in the order. It was never really made clear. If it was made clear that Loghain had a direct hand in it, I would see where it would be bad. But since there is no evidence that he did, I'm inclined to give Loghain(a hero, mind you) the benefit of the doubt.

[Joie de Combat]

While it's certainly never proven that he was involved in Howe's betrayal, the fact that he did have Arl Eamon poisoned sets a definite precedent. Between that and the proof that he was selling people into slavery, I really think that he's lost the benefit of the doubt, and any "hero" cred, by that point.

[The Angry One]

He had to be involved as far as knowing of it and promising Howe support.

Despite his best efforts, a witness was bound to escape the castle, and one did.

All it'd take is for somebody to let Cailan know that Howe was pulling a coup and he'd probably march up to arrest him on principle, and Howe would know that... unless he also knew Cailan wouldn't be an issue soon enough.



Loghain a hero? Who cares. The dwarves made Branka a Paragon and she was always a righteous ass. Whatever the books paint him as is largely irrelevant, all that's shown in the game is a tyrant, muderer and selfush brute. His own justifications are self-serving and dishonest.

[SarEnyaDor]

Isn't that the plot of so many great works of literature anyway? The fallen hero? The man who was so good and did do much becoming the very antithesis of his former self during his descent? A man's own selfishness/pride/close-mindedness bring about his fall from grace?



Yes, Loghain was a hero. WAS. He fell, fell hard, and almost took all of Ferelden with him.

[The Angry One]

Thing is I just don't see this supposed heroicness stemming from his tactical genius when he's just such a *fool*.

His whole stance on the Blight "No no no this isn't a true Blight. What, more towns falling the the darkspawn horde? La la la la I can't hear you." makes Sandal look like a strategic genius.

[SarEnyaDor]

Enchantment!



Well, he is a savant....



No, I meant he was a hero in the books, not in the game, back 15-20 years ago, but since then he's turned into a bitter, twisted, paranoid King Lear type who is not worthy of redemption.

[bobsmyuncle]

Despite that this topic has become an argument about Loghain (don't they all), I wanted to comment on the original subject.

If you've even casually followed the game's lore you should know why your mage can't possibly be Queen. The Chantry would **** bricks, the Bannorn would probably rebel, your PC would be accused of blood magic, there'd be no end to the headache.

Either let Anora be Queen or give Alistair up (or be his mistress, although I can't see a mage being tolerated there either TBQH). Thems the breaks when everyone basically believes you are evil waiting to happen.

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:49 .

[Hamarabi2006]

Raltar wrote...

It is difficult to understand his apparent paranoia with Orlais because you weren't there(even alive) when Orlais occupied Ferelden. He was. He experienced it first hand. It's difficult to let that sort of thing go when he lived the nightmare. I don't think Loghain had anything to do with Howe murdering the human noble's family, however. That was all 100% Howe, as far as I can tell.

What about the Arl Eamon assassination attempt?  Coincidence?  I think not. He was murdering all opposition to his rule.

On Topic:  If you start a Human Noble character, then use the console to respec the character to a Mage (runscript wizard), you keep the Cousland name and can end up being queen if you choose to.  There will be slight dialogue abnormalities, because you are Human Noble and a Mage, so some times the dialogue will treat you as if you came from that origin rather than the Human Noble origin.  Most of the time you are of Noble birth, however, and the most important part is that Alistair will take you as queen in the end.  You'll have to take Morrigan's offer, of course.

Unless, you meant to be queen without anything to do with Alistair.  In that case, I don't know.  *chuckle*

P.S. Check gamefaqs.com or other gaming website for instructions on how to enable the console and use it.

Modifié par Hamarabi2006, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[Revya]

TeenZombie wrote...

Raltar wrote...

It is difficult to understand his apparent paranoia with Orlais because you weren't there(even alive) when Orlais occupied Ferelden. He was. He experienced it first hand. It's difficult to let that sort of thing go when he lived the nightmare. I don't think Loghain had anything to do with Howe murdering the human noble's family, however. That was all 100% Howe, as far as I can tell.

Even if the Couslands were conspiring with Orlais (and did Howe even bother to counterfeit proof on this accusation?), the entire family, including women, children, and servants, were murdered in their beds, by a man who was welcomed into their home as a friend.  Loghain then proceeded to give Howe the title of Teyrn of Highever AND the arl of Denerim...you really think Loghain had NO idea what was going on? 

And when Howe decided to quell the riots in the Denerim alienage by locking the elves in and doing fun stuff like slaughtering defenseless elven children in the orphanage...Loghain's response was to SELL the rest of the elves to Tevinter.  Awesome leadership skills, right there.

Loghain apologists are amazing.  Next please tell me how Arthas and Sephiroth are really just misunderstood heroes.

About Arthas...THAT is exacly what Blizzard is trying to do now:lol:. He is not eveil he is actually the only thing Spoilers


keeping the undead from killing everything:sick:

Modifié par Revya, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:36 .

[Valilith]

Recidiva wrote...
Get Alistair's personal quest to go meet his sister.  Then later tell him "Everyone's out for themselves, you should learn that"

He'll bring it up again later in conversation, don't back down and say "I didn't mean that!"

Support his decision to toughen up and think more for himself, and you've got a brand new Alistair.  Less romantic, more opinionated.  And willing to have a three-way with Sophie, become king, and keep a mistress on the side.

Many thanks (I'll have to reload previous game ^^)

[Walina]

To be honest, if you do not harden Alistair it's better to not choose him as king and stay together as grey warden, that's the most happy ending I found mainly because :

- He will dump you if you make him king because he will care about his duty while he will repeat he never wanted to be king and in pain he will tell you he will prefer that things will not be like this. Unfortunally, you PC has to accept Morrigan offer to be able to live '

Another thing why, you shouldn't make him king if he not hardened : Alistair will go wander most of the time leaving you behind if you choose to be his cancellor.

For more questions please look in this topic : http://social.biowar...ssion/1799/&p=1

Modifié par Walina, 29 novembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[Hunter246]

btw hardened Alister is same only difference is the way he act is the ending why people seem to think he drastically changes as a person is beyond me.

[Walina]

I don't know (yet) what kind of different endings, you can get after hardening him as a none noble many says you can become his mistress when he is king.

I hope to find out in my next playthroiugh.

p.s : people think that he change drastically because as ar as I know if you spare Loghain, he will force Anora marrying him and will leave your group but be king.

Modifié par Walina, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:12 .