597 réponses à ce sujet

[Genera1Nemesis]

As it stands, a lot of people are saying it is 'circular'
logic and makes no sense. I too was in this camp until I started thinking about
the Mass Effect story and universe as a whole.



In conversations with Javik, ( should have been free DLC Bioware, might have
saved some face) he mentions on more than a few occasions that the Protheans
were engaged in a war with synthetics that sounded an aweful lot like the husks
we see in the game. He describes them as a  failed species who used
synthetics to improve their own intelligence; until the AI began rewriting
their genetic code and started spreading across the galaxy. The Protheans
fought this race of synthetics for what sounded like a long time, because the
Protheans saw that if they advanced any further they would have wiped out ALL
organic life and not just the advanced ones. At the apex of this war the
Reapers arrived, and that; as Javik stated; was when they realized that
synthetics had already evolved well beyond organics.



Now in the context of Mass Effect 1. During the course of the game you learn
that the Geth were building an armada in the Perseus Veil; something they were
doing before Sovereign took control of the heretics. Sovereign was actually
found by Saren in the Veil ( which is stated in one of the novels) Throughout
Mass Effect 1 we discover that Cerberus is working on a few AI projects; one of
which comes to the determination that Catalyst claims is inevitable.



This seems to indicate one thing; Sovereign; being the Reaper Vanguard; hides
in the Veil during each cycle. It's mission doesn't activate until one or more
AI intelligences come to the ultimate conclusion that organics are unnecessary.
The first thing Soveriegn did was take control of the Geth heretics by
convincing them 'the old machines' were their deities. He then indoctrinated
Saren and began his mission to activate the Citadel.



Please note that Legion mentions that after the Quarian exodus the Geth did not
pursue because they were trying to reach consensus on the implications of wiping
out an entire race. Assuming the Geth are somewhat immortal; it might be safe
to say they didn't reach this consensus yet; but were prepared in case their
creators returned to reclaim their world. Also, in ME3; when Legion is
uploading himself; he says that the death of the creators is the only solution;
and depending on Shep's interference that is what happens.



Also, it is interesting to point out that EDI also struggles with the idea of
being 'superior' to organics, and again depending on Shep comes to the
conclusion that she is just another crew member, and loves her friends. It is
speculation; but EDI could change her mind after a few hundred years and decide
that organics are detrimental. I doubt it, but the possibilty is there
considering she is prety much immortal.



I know some wished to have an argument with Catalyst to bring up the Geth or
EDI as examples that Catalyst is wrong; but would this be enough? No, because
there is always someone like TIM that will attempt to build a more
sophisticated AI intelligence.



In conclusion what I've drawn from what I know about the events of both the
Prothean time period and the Shep time period is that the Reapers don't come to
'save' the galaxy until the threat is proven to be very real. Sovereign seems
to act as their first initiative; it waits in the Veil and when it determines
that organics have come to a point that the AI they are creating is a threat it
then calls it's buddies to reset everything.



I am curious if people see this another way, and any argument is valid. Please
don't just type "no' as a response because that is neither helpful in a
debate without actual reason, and it is ver chidlish. I just wnat to know what
people think about it in the context of the entire narrative.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Sorry about the stupid formatting. Will fix later.

[2484Stryker]

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

[desert116]

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

[Aedan276]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...



As it stands, a lot of people are saying it is 'circular'
logic and makes no sense. I too was in this camp until I started thinking about
the Mass Effect story and universe as a whole.



In conversations with Javik, ( should have been free DLC Bioware, might have
saved some face) he mentions on more than a few occasions that the Protheans
were engaged in a war with synthetics that sounded an aweful lot like the husks
we see in the game. He describes them as a  failed species who used
synthetics to improve their own intelligence; until the AI began rewriting
their genetic code and started spreading across the galaxy. The Protheans
fought this race of synthetics for what sounded like a long time, because the
Protheans saw that if they advanced any further they would have wiped out ALL
organic life and not just the advanced ones. At the apex of this war the
Reapers arrived, and that; as Javik stated; was when they realized that
synthetics had already evolved well beyond organics.



Now in the context of Mass Effect 1. During the course of the game you learn
that the Geth were building an armada in the Perseus Veil; something they were
doing before Sovereign took control of the heretics. Sovereign was actually
found by Saren in the Veil ( which is stated in one of the novels) Throughout
Mass Effect 1 we discover that Cerberus is working on a few AI projects; one of
which comes to the determination that Catalyst claims is inevitable.



This seems to indicate one thing; Sovereign; being the Reaper Vanguard; hides
in the Veil during each cycle. It's mission doesn't activate until one or more
AI intelligences come to the ultimate conclusion that organics are unnecessary.
The first thing Soveriegn did was take control of the Geth heretics by
convincing them 'the old machines' were their deities. He then indoctrinated
Saren and began his mission to activate the Citadel.



Please note that Legion mentions that after the Quarian exodus the Geth did not
pursue because they were trying to reach consensus on the implications of wiping
out an entire race. Assuming the Geth are somewhat immortal; it might be safe
to say they didn't reach this consensus yet; but were prepared in case their
creators returned to reclaim their world. Also, in ME3; when Legion is
uploading himself; he says that the death of the creators is the only solution;
and depending on Shep's interference that is what happens.



Also, it is interesting to point out that EDI also struggles with the idea of
being 'superior' to organics, and again depending on Shep comes to the
conclusion that she is just another crew member, and loves her friends. It is
speculation; but EDI could change her mind after a few hundred years and decide
that organics are detrimental. I doubt it, but the possibilty is there
considering she is prety much immortal.



I know some wished to have an argument with Catalyst to bring up the Geth or
EDI as examples that Catalyst is wrong; but would this be enough? No, because
there is always someone like TIM that will attempt to build a more
sophisticated AI intelligence.



In conclusion what I've drawn from what I know about the events of both the
Prothean time period and the Shep time period is that the Reapers don't come to
'save' the galaxy until the threat is proven to be very real. Sovereign seems
to act as their first initiative; it waits in the Veil and when it determines
that organics have come to a point that the AI they are creating is a threat it
then calls it's buddies to reset everything.



I am curious if people see this another way, and any argument is valid. Please
don't just type "no' as a response because that is neither helpful in a
debate without actual reason, and it is ver chidlish. I just wnat to know what
people think about it in the context of the entire narrative.

This kind of reasoning can never work because would contradict the purpose and appeal of dramatic fiction; we didn't get the opportunity to broker peace between the Quarians and the Geth because peace is ultimately impossible, because that negates the purpose of striving for peace and makes it pointless. 

If we want to start challenging the limits of dramatic fiction to the furtherest extremes, Organics could wipe themselves out with some kind of out of control intragalactic bio-weapon before Synthetics get to it. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 15 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[Iztiak]

It's still absolutely terrible logic.

He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.

Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.

Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.

Truly a terrible ending.

Modifié par Iztiak, 15 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[Isichar]

The kids job is to trick you out of doing what you were made to do, you either fall for it or you dont imo

[cotheer]

"We all did stupid things while we were kids", Shepard
Maybe that brat is harbinger's renegade son. ?_?

[desert116]

cotheer wrote...

"We all did stupid things while we were kids", Shepard
Maybe that brat is harbinger's renegade son. ?_?

This is why you don't bring your kids to work.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Iztiak wrote...

It's still absolutely terrible logic.

He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.

Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.

Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.

Truly a terrible ending.

Tehy only wipe out the advanced, or threatening species and leave the less advanced to live. There will always be someone like TIM who will attempt to 'progress' AI for their own purposes.

The point Catalyst makes is that eventually an AI will attempt to wipe out ALL organic life; meaning the less advanced as well. So in that, they are actually saving the lesser species; otherwise had they not intervened during Protean time period then humans may have been killed by the AI that was sweeping across the galaxy.

[Umbrellamage]

From the first game it seems more like the interference of the reapers (through sovereign and saren) created the main conflict of the heretic Geth vs. everyone. In ME2 and 3 the Geth were never on the offensive and just "wanted to be left alone" while it was in fact the Quarians that overreacted and started the entire conflict.

[Genera1Nemesis]

"Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks."

What if that AI was too sophisticated for the Reapers to destroy?

[Doomhams]

Except, in ME2, Legion clearly states that the geth believe all life has the right to self determine their future. IE, the geth decided that other sentient life was equal to them and they would leave them alone.

[CombustiblePanda]

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

Ding Ding Ding.

We have a winner.

[Doomhams]

Also, from seeing videos of Javik conversations, having him around the whole game seems like it would have reinforced this organic vs synthetic theme a lot more.

[RVallant]

Iztiak wrote...

It's still absolutely terrible logic.

He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.

Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.

Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.

Truly a terrible ending.

No he's not, he's harvesting entire organic species as an organic-synthetic hybrid. The organics get uploaded to a reaper form, they still 'exist'.

And your thinking is too narrow, it's repeatedly or implied in ME3 that this cycle is unique for various reasons, impliedly that AI hasn't actually wiped crap out yet. The repeated pattern dating back to the very start ALWAYS had AI being created and AI attempting to wipe out their creators (or progressing along that line of thinking).

The Geth appear to be a one-off and even then, they're in a position of peace because of the Reaper threat not because they would have done so without that threat. It's also worth noting that if you get peace between them and the Quarians, that what they're doing to the Quarians isn't much different from what the AI did to the original species that Javik mentions. 

Going by the pattern parameters will shift and the AI will uprise eventually, hence the logic is to eliminate them and harvest organics to a reaper shell in order to allow the younger species to exist and the pattern to re-establish itself.

Having the reapers wipe out synthetics all the time isn't going to prevent the pattern occuring and it's likely to add extra complications to the 'plan'. Don't analyse the catalyst from what 'we' experience analyse it from what HE itself and the Reapers have been seeing for over a minimum of 47 millions years. Then it becomes clearer.

[Baihu1983]

The fact i was able to bring peace towards the Geth should have shown my galaxy was worth saving as it was.

[ecarden]

Doomhams wrote...

Also, from seeing videos of Javik conversations, having him around the whole game seems like it would have reinforced this organic vs synthetic theme a lot more.

Sorta, but the extent to which they're all conquering Space Romans makes it a bit difficult to take anything they do as seriously representative of the current cycle.

But, of course, this leads to the other (ha, like there's just one more) problem with the catalyst's reasoning, namely that it goes directly against the diversity of the mass effect universe. In a universe that produces Elcor and Volus, Hanar and Krogan, Human and Raloi, Asari and Salarian, the dividing line is synthetic/organic? And it's 'inevitable'?

No.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

If I have the power to kill the Reapers, why am I in danger of being killed by the geth?

[Skyblade012]

EDI apparently is a figment of my imagination. As is the geth/quarian makeup. 'Cause, you know, according to the catalyst, that is IMPOSSIBLE.

[Doomhams]

The Geth appear to be a one-off and even then, they're in a position of peace because of the Reaper threat not because they would have done so without that threat. It's also worth noting that if you get peace between them and the Quarians, that what they're doing to the Quarians isn't much different from what the AI did to the original species that Javik mentions.

The geth had 300 years to change their mind.

[ecarden]

RVallant wrote...

No he's not, he's harvesting entire organic species as an organic-synthetic hybrid. The organics get uploaded to a reaper form, they still 'exist'.

And your thinking is too narrow, it's repeatedly or implied in ME3 that this cycle is unique for various reasons, impliedly that AI hasn't actually wiped crap out yet. The repeated pattern dating back to the very start ALWAYS had AI being created and AI attempting to wipe out their creators (or progressing along that line of thinking).

The Geth appear to be a one-off and even then, they're in a position of peace because of the Reaper threat not because they would have done so without that threat. It's also worth noting that if you get peace between them and the Quarians, that what they're doing to the Quarians isn't much different from what the AI did to the original species that Javik mentions. 

Going by the pattern parameters will shift and the AI will uprise eventually, hence the logic is to eliminate them and harvest organics to a reaper shell in order to allow the younger species to exist and the pattern to re-establish itself.

Having the reapers wipe out synthetics all the time isn't going to prevent the pattern occuring and it's likely to add extra complications to the 'plan'. Don't analyse the catalyst from what 'we' experience analyse it from what HE itself and the Reapers have been seeing for over a minimum of 47 millions years. Then it becomes clearer.

Speaking only about the Geth, they fight in exactly two sets of circumstances--they've been attacked, or they've been bribed/influenced/indoctrinated by the Reapers--WHICH ARE CONTROLLED BY THE CATALYST.

This is called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As for the rest, the catalyst may have some evidence that it's happened in past cycles, but all it says is that it's inevitable, its bare word, unsupported by evidence, doesn't counterbalance the weight of Geth and Quarian fighting together just outside the citadel.

[forgottenlord]

I'll read and respond at length when I get home, but I want to underline one major problem: I don't really care whether the Catalyst is right or wrong - the problem is that we're forced to accept him as right without any ability to bring our own thought process into it. The fact that it is treated as an absolute truth, unquestionable and unchallengeable (and never challenged in the game) is what makes the ending hard to take. I'd love to have that concept be the Catalyst's (actually, I'd prefer it to be Harbinger's instead) and Javik's so long as there is a counterpoint with the option to side with either opinion and then you and I and hundreds of other fans, instead of talking about how atrocious the endings are, could be debating whether they're right or not.

[Skyblade012]

ecarden wrote...

RVallant wrote...

No he's not, he's harvesting entire organic species as an organic-synthetic hybrid. The organics get uploaded to a reaper form, they still 'exist'.

And your thinking is too narrow, it's repeatedly or implied in ME3 that this cycle is unique for various reasons, impliedly that AI hasn't actually wiped crap out yet. The repeated pattern dating back to the very start ALWAYS had AI being created and AI attempting to wipe out their creators (or progressing along that line of thinking).

The Geth appear to be a one-off and even then, they're in a position of peace because of the Reaper threat not because they would have done so without that threat. It's also worth noting that if you get peace between them and the Quarians, that what they're doing to the Quarians isn't much different from what the AI did to the original species that Javik mentions. 

Going by the pattern parameters will shift and the AI will uprise eventually, hence the logic is to eliminate them and harvest organics to a reaper shell in order to allow the younger species to exist and the pattern to re-establish itself.

Having the reapers wipe out synthetics all the time isn't going to prevent the pattern occuring and it's likely to add extra complications to the 'plan'. Don't analyse the catalyst from what 'we' experience analyse it from what HE itself and the Reapers have been seeing for over a minimum of 47 millions years. Then it becomes clearer.

Speaking only about the Geth, they fight in exactly two sets of circumstances--they've been attacked, or they've been bribed/influenced/indoctrinated by the Reapers--WHICH ARE CONTROLLED BY THE CATALYST.

This is called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As for the rest, the catalyst may have some evidence that it's happened in past cycles, but all it says is that it's inevitable, its bare word, unsupported by evidence, doesn't counterbalance the weight of Geth and Quarian fighting together just outside the citadel.

Or, for that matter, EDI, who comes with you and reprograms herself to work better with you.

[suusuuu]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Also, in ME3; when Legion is
uploading himself; he says that the death of the creators is the only solution;
and depending on Shep's interference that is what happens.

I believe this depends on your playthrough, because in my game, he never said something even remotely similar to what you're claiming.

Might just go in and check but I'm sure I would notice if he said something like that. I have been working toward the peace between Quarians and the Geth since ME2 and never used a single renegade option on Legion. 

Modifié par suusuuu, 15 mars 2012 - 09:58 .