597 réponses à ce sujet

[LTBK]

111987 wrote...

LTBK wrote...

111987 wrote...

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

It could do, in fact. Or at least you could try to, instead of just believing what the guy controlling the reapers is telling you. Just use your comm link (it was still working) and try to get EDI and the geth to use all their combined processing power to analyze the current situation and/or link with the crucible (that your own engineers made and EVEN improved upon, even if they didn't know what was it for because it was lacking the catalyst) in order to try to give you a better solution, or at least find the truth in the Catalyst's words.

EDI and the Geth were a bit busy fighting the Reapers, were they not? And the Geth are independent minds now; they can't form a collective anymore without the proper hardware.

Also, that would have been at odds with the mood of that scene. Can you imagine how much more ridiculous the scene would have been if Shepard just sat on the floor next to the Starchild, waiting for Edi and the Geth to finish their analysis?

They could do more than one thing at once, as showed by EDI alone more than once in your conversations with her on the Normandy. Also, being a collective has nothing to do with using their combined processing power to analyze something, in order to speed it up while still being able to keep something for the fight. EDI and Legion were able to communicate between them and share resources fairly well back in ME2, even if she still preferred to "speak" because she thought that doing otherwise was not respectful to her organic mates, and they weren't even the same kind of AI, nor physical connected. On top of that, the geth didn't change their hardware, they just improved their software with some tibdits of reaper and Legion's code so that they wouldn't have to rely into numbers, thus increasing their indiviluality to be on par with that of a "real" AI. Also, long range connection with other systems without being physically plugged has been shown in the trilogy over and over, so I don't see the issue on it.

As of the mood of the scene, it can be solved quite easy. If you choose that option, you just think that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate you and, as he's apparently the Big Boss behind the reapers and your mission was to stop them, you ignore him and call (or get a call again, urging you to shoot the damn thing) through the comm to inform Hackett that you're in what appears to be a control room, but you can't seem to find a proper way of "firing" the Crucible. EDI intervenes through the comm, as he was monitoring it (as she has done often in the past), and suggests you to give her and the geth access to the Crucible's systems by activating something on it (that's where all your allied engineer's works come in, you all know how the whole thing is made). By the same logic as in the current endings, Catalyst won't try to stop you, even if out of curiosity about the outcome of that collaboration between synthetics and the first organic to reach him/it, so you would have plenty of time to ask for help... if you had made enough preparations to get that extra time, but you still have that sense of urge because everyone is dying in the fight (kinda like in the first ME).

That's just one idea from the top of my head. I'm quite sure that it could be improved a lot, but at least it gives you some insight at some "real" and simple alternative way of solving the Star Boy situation.

[Meltemph]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The thing people who are fine with the logic are missing. The reapers are millions of years old and are synthetic/organic constructs, which mean someone created them. So up to this point there were no reapers, and this race that made them, decided that before there time, there was a AI that always created synthetics that wiped out civilizations.

SO this species created the reapers and started harvesting every advanced organic life in the universe after creating the mass relays. From this time on, the reapers with the way they left the galaxy, essentially created a self fulfilling prophecy. The kept things the way they were to help develop species according to their design, by keeping them on the same track as every other species.

Evolution DEFIES this line of thought that existence is a straight line. While normally you should never have to think about crap like this, the ending literally forced you to ask questions that the game did not supply answers to, because the reapers obviously had a beginning, which imply's at some point the cycle did not exists since the reapers infact exist. Otherwise you would be arguing that someone created something even worse then the reapers before this, which makes even less sense.

Since we don't know the circumstances behind the origins of the Reapers, it's impossible to know for certain what initially inspired the idea of the Reapers.

Which is why it is impossible to agree with the reapers logic, unless you claim it is infalible simply because it exists. The point is the only way you could UNERSTAND the reapers line of thought is to understand its existence.  We dont get to know this, so anyone saying that the reapers make sense is like saying they they know what happened millions of years prior to the existence of reapers.  And if you dont follow this line of thought you are essetnially giving the reapers the validation of a litteral god.

Part of the reason why I'm inclined to at least listen to the Catalyst is because the Reapers have so much more knowledge about the galaxy than we do. Also, the Reapers aren't really known for lying. They might sometimes be vague, but i can't recall of a time where they outright lie about something.

So then you agree with them because they simply exist.  Which means you think the peopel who created them were infalible and I dont see how you could do that without knowing the initial need for the reapers.  Either way, you ARE treating them like a god(Star Gate anyone?).

[piemanz]

Meltemph wrote...

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The thing people who are fine with the logic are missing. The reapers are millions of years old and are synthetic/organic constructs, which mean someone created them. So up to this point there were no reapers, and this race that made them, decided that before there time, there was a AI that always created synthetics that wiped out civilizations.

SO this species created the reapers and started harvesting every advanced organic life in the universe after creating the mass relays. From this time on, the reapers with the way they left the galaxy, essentially created a self fulfilling prophecy. The kept things the way they were to help develop species according to their design, by keeping them on the same track as every other species.

Evolution DEFIES this line of thought that existence is a straight line. While normally you should never have to think about crap like this, the ending literally forced you to ask questions that the game did not supply answers to, because the reapers obviously had a beginning, which imply's at some point the cycle did not exists since the reapers infact exist. Otherwise you would be arguing that someone created something even worse then the reapers before this, which makes even less sense.

Since we don't know the circumstances behind the origins of the Reapers, it's impossible to know for certain what initially inspired the idea of the Reapers.

Which is why it is impossible to agree with the reapers logic, unless you claim it is infalible simply because it exists. The point is the only way you could UNERSTAND the reapers line of thought is to understand its existence.  We dont get to know this, so anyone saying that the reapers make sense is like saying they they know what happened millions of years prior to the existence of reapers.  And if you dont follow this line of thought you are essetnially giving the reapers the validation of a litteral god.

It's not that their logic is infallable, because we dont know for 100% certainty that what they say will happen will happen. But, if they've seen it, hell it may have even been them that wiped out all organince life in another galaxy or something, it's not hard to see why they think their logic is right.

Modifié par piemanz, 16 mars 2012 - 02:07 .

[Beast919]

piemanz wrote...

Not really, because it proves that sovreign had infact tried to start the Reaper invasion 1000 years prior. Probably because it thought organics were on the cusp of creating synthetic life.

There is so much wrong with this theorey it makes my brain bleed.

First of all, *assuming* the Rachni were indeed Soveriegn's first attempt to retake the Citadel, I have to call WTF.  Soveriegn, the entity we can't begin to comprehend, is so baffled by a line of code introduced by a group of 14 scientists to the Citadel that he has to amass an entire army of bugs to overtake the entire galaxy (and completely ignoring the goal of his supposed invasion, the Citadel)?

Come on people.

Secondly, assuming the above doesn't break your brain's ability to think straight, even if he *fails* with this Rachni invasion, which is laughable in of itself, it takes him over 1000 years to find an Agent who can walk on to the Citadel and do a little recon for him?  I understand he's supposed to be portrayed as patient, but think about this.  He starts A GALAXY WIDE WAR WITH A RACE OF BUG PEOPLE......THEN CHILLS FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS CAUSE EVERYTHING IS FINE.

Finally, assuming you can shut your brain off long enough to get past those 2 glaring idiocies, the simple concept of "well, I think, somewhere around this time, things are gonna get bad for organics, I better come out of hibernation and start murdering civilizations" is so beyond retarded I can't believe you'd back it.

[Meltemph]

But, if they've seen it, hell it may have even been them that wiped out all organince life in another galaxy or something, it's not hard to see why they think this their logic is right.

Actually unless you are giving them divinity, it is very hard for me to see why they would except that line of reasoning at face value. The fact that th reapers exist means there was a creator which means there was a time before the reapers when people existed. There are SO MANY THINGS that come into play because the way they handled the ending and the concepts that they introduced, that it literally boggles my mind how people can look at the ending THAT simply.

[Kandon Arc]

111987 wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...


Obviously not the norm? We have 2/3 examples of AI in this game and they all function against the catalyst's reasoning, yet they're not the norm? Norms come from evidence. I see none that supports the catalyst.

The Catalyst/Reapers have had billions of years of experience, and have seen the cycle repeat itself every time. That's a hell of a lot more evidence than EDI (who is in love with an organic...definitely not the norm) and the Geth (who have been true AI's for only a few days).

And thus we get to the real problem - the catalyst's arguments aren't logically falsifiable. There is no possible argument against the catalyst that cannot be responded to with "he has much more experience than you". Therefore no meaningful debate on his views can be had. We must either accept that he is correct because he has undefined experience to support him; or we can believe the evidence the game has presented us with up to this point and reject his views.

Fundamentally this is due to poor writing - we have no oppurtunity to let the catalyst present his evidence, so we can either make a blind leap of faith that he is correct or we can remain unconvinced.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Please keep in mind that the Reapers didn't see what they were doing as murder. They viewed it preserving, so in their minds they were saving doomed species from their own extinction event.

[111987]

LTBK wrote...

They could do more than one thing at once, as showed by EDI alone more than once in your conversations with her on the Normandy. Also, being a collective has nothing to do with using their combined processing power to analyze something, in order to speed it up while still being able to keep something for the fight. EDI and Legion were able to communicate between them and share resources fairly well back in ME2, even if she still preferred to "speak" because she thought that doing otherwise was not respectful to her organic mates, and they weren't even the same kind of AI, nor physical connected. On top of that, the geth didn't change their hardware, they just improved their software with some tibdits of reaper and Legion's code so that they wouldn't have to rely into numbers, thus increasing their indiviluality to be on par with that of a "real" AI. Also, long range connection with other systems without being physically plugged has been shown in the trilogy over and over, so I don't see the issue on it.

EDI multiasking while chilling on the Normandy is not equivalent. In battle, EDI is basically running the entire ship, launching cyberwarfare attacks, and defending against hacking. She's in no position to help. Same with the Geth.

LTBK wrote...

As of the mood of the scene, it can be solved quite easy. If you choose that option, you just think that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate you and, as he's apparently the Big Boss behind the reapers and your mission was to stop them, you ignore him and call (or get a call again, urging you to shoot the damn thing) through the comm to inform Hackett that you're in what appears to be a control room, but you can't seem to find a proper way of "firing" the Crucible. EDI intervenes through the comm, as he was monitoring it (as she has done often in the past), and suggests you to give her and the geth access to the Crucible's systems by activating something on it (that's where all your allied engineer's works come in, you all know how the whole thing is made). By the same logic as in the current endings, Catalyst won't try to stop you, even if out of curiosity about the outcome of that collaboration between synthetics and the first organic to reach him/it, so you would have plenty of time to ask for help... if you had made enough preparations to get that extra time, but you still have that sense of urge because everyone is dying in the fight (kinda like in the first ME).

That's just one idea from the top of my head. I'm quite sure that it could be improved a lot, but at least it gives you some insight at some "real" and simple alternative way of solving the Star Boy situation.

Fair enough, that indeed would be a good way of incorporating an analysis of the Crucible without dispelling the mood. I still think EDI and the Geth would be too busy to be doing that and fighting against the Reapers and their hacking attempts.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Ok, your right. It's nonsense. Pure nonsense. The fact that the Geth were not true AI until Legion made them so doesn't mean anything. The fact that Cerberus was doing wahtever it took at that time to create a perfect AI doesn't matter...and as I pointed out in an earlier post if you were to tell people "We know you can make guns, but don't do it because they'll kill you" wouldn't stop someone like TIM from doing just that; because he could. The Reapers (from their perspective) acted when they did because what if Cerberus had succeeded? What if an AI developed that was so sophisticated that even the Reapers couldn't stop it...or worse it could control the Reapers? They acted on initiative was all I was saying. To view this as nonsense doesn't really do justice to the fact that the Reapers saw it this way, regardless of whether anyone else did or not.

So you're saying since nukes could wipe out all Civilization we humans know it, we should go ahead and nuke ourselves now to save the trouble.  Cause its very feasible that a nuclear war of epic proportions could drastically alter the ecosystem of the planet to point where it becomes unfit for human life.  Therefore, we should just blow up all but a few tribal nations and go back to the stone age.

[111987]

Kandon Arc wrote...

111987 wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...


Obviously not the norm? We have 2/3 examples of AI in this game and they all function against the catalyst's reasoning, yet they're not the norm? Norms come from evidence. I see none that supports the catalyst.

The Catalyst/Reapers have had billions of years of experience, and have seen the cycle repeat itself every time. That's a hell of a lot more evidence than EDI (who is in love with an organic...definitely not the norm) and the Geth (who have been true AI's for only a few days).

And thus we get to the real problem - the catalyst's arguments aren't logically falsifiable. There is no possible argument against the catalyst that cannot be responded to with "he has much more experience than you". Therefore no meaningful debate on his views can be had. We must either accept that he is correct because he has undefined experience to support him; or we can believe the evidence the game has presented us with up to this point and reject his views.

Fundamentally this is due to poor writing - we have no oppurtunity to let the catalyst present his evidence, so we can either make a blind leap of faith that he is correct or we can remain unconvinced.

The starchild does say though that the cycle of synthetics and organics fighting each other has repeated itself every time. We have no way of knowing whether he's right or not, but then again, why would he lie about it? Also, the fact that the Protheans underwent a similar situation lends massive support to the starchild's argument.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Ok, your right. It's nonsense. Pure nonsense. The fact that the Geth were not true AI until Legion made them so doesn't mean anything. The fact that Cerberus was doing wahtever it took at that time to create a perfect AI doesn't matter...and as I pointed out in an earlier post if you were to tell people "We know you can make guns, but don't do it because they'll kill you" wouldn't stop someone like TIM from doing just that; because he could. The Reapers (from their perspective) acted when they did because what if Cerberus had succeeded? What if an AI developed that was so sophisticated that even the Reapers couldn't stop it...or worse it could control the Reapers? They acted on initiative was all I was saying. To view this as nonsense doesn't really do justice to the fact that the Reapers saw it this way, regardless of whether anyone else did or not.

So you're saying since nukes could wipe out all Civilization we humans know it, we should go ahead and nuke ourselves now to save the trouble.  Cause its very feasible that a nuclear war of epic proportions could drastically alter the ecosystem of the planet to point where it becomes unfit for human life.  Therefore, we should just blow up all but a few tribal nations and go back to the stone age.

The Reaper logic is pretty much exactly the same as the one in The Day the Earth Stood Still. Watch that movie if you haven't yet.

[LTBK]

Beast919 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Not really, because it proves that sovreign had infact tried to start the Reaper invasion 1000 years prior. Probably because it thought organics were on the cusp of creating synthetic life.

There is so much wrong with this theorey it makes my brain bleed.

First of all, *assuming* the Rachni were indeed Soveriegn's first attempt to retake the Citadel, I have to call WTF.  Soveriegn, the entity we can't begin to comprehend, is so baffled by a line of code introduced by a group of 14 scientists to the Citadel that he has to amass an entire army of bugs to overtake the entire galaxy (and completely ignoring the goal of his supposed invasion, the Citadel)?

Come on people.

Secondly, assuming the above doesn't break your brain's ability to think straight, even if he *fails* with this Rachni invasion, which is laughable in of itself, it takes him over 1000 years to find an Agent who can walk on to the Citadel and do a little recon for him?  I understand he's supposed to be portrayed as patient, but think about this.  He starts A GALAXY WIDE WAR WITH A RACE OF BUG PEOPLE......THEN CHILLS FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS CAUSE EVERYTHING IS FINE.

Finally, assuming you can shut your brain off long enough to get past those 2 glaring idiocies, the simple concept of "well, I think, somewhere around this time, things are gonna get bad for organics, I better come out of hibernation and start murdering civilizations" is so beyond retarded I can't believe you'd back it.

The rachni were, in fact, forced to war by the reapers, as explained by the rachni queen in ME.

I agree with the second part tho.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Ok, your right. It's nonsense. Pure nonsense. The fact that the Geth were not true AI until Legion made them so doesn't mean anything. The fact that Cerberus was doing wahtever it took at that time to create a perfect AI doesn't matter...and as I pointed out in an earlier post if you were to tell people "We know you can make guns, but don't do it because they'll kill you" wouldn't stop someone like TIM from doing just that; because he could. The Reapers (from their perspective) acted when they did because what if Cerberus had succeeded? What if an AI developed that was so sophisticated that even the Reapers couldn't stop it...or worse it could control the Reapers? They acted on initiative was all I was saying. To view this as nonsense doesn't really do justice to the fact that the Reapers saw it this way, regardless of whether anyone else did or not.

So you're saying since nukes could wipe out all Civilization we humans know it, we should go ahead and nuke ourselves now to save the trouble.  Cause its very feasible that a nuclear war of epic proportions could drastically alter the ecosystem of the planet to point where it becomes unfit for human life.  Therefore, we should just blow up all but a few tribal nations and go back to the stone age.

The Reaper logic is pretty much exactly the same as the one in The Day the Earth Stood Still. Watch that movie if you haven't yet.

This is dodging the question.   I truly don't see the difference between the nuke scenario and the "potential AI killing everything" scenario the Reapers present.  And you're telling me some ancient all knowing being is going to come to the same conclusion I just presented.  To just bomb the hell out of everything because one day we may bomb things uncontrollably.  Its beyond absurd.

[111987]

Meltemph wrote...

So then you agree with them because they simply exist.  Which means you think the peopel who created them were infalible and I dont see how you could do that without knowing the initial need for the reapers.  Either way, you ARE treating them like a god(Star Gate anyone?).

I agree with them because they have no reason to lie and because we've seen evidence of what the star child has said in both our cycle and the Prothean cycle. Regardless of whether they were right or wrong when the Reapers were first created, they've been proven right throughout history.

[Meltemph]

Kandon Arc wrote...

111987 wrote...

Kandon Arc wrote...


Obviously not the norm? We have 2/3 examples of AI in this game and they all function against the catalyst's reasoning, yet they're not the norm? Norms come from evidence. I see none that supports the catalyst.

The Catalyst/Reapers have had billions of years of experience, and have seen the cycle repeat itself every time. That's a hell of a lot more evidence than EDI (who is in love with an organic...definitely not the norm) and the Geth (who have been true AI's for only a few days).

And thus we get to the real problem - the catalyst's arguments aren't logically falsifiable. There is no possible argument against the catalyst that cannot be responded to with "he has much more experience than you". Therefore no meaningful debate on his views can be had. We must either accept that he is correct because he has undefined experience to support him; or we can believe the evidence the game has presented us with up to this point and reject his views.

Fundamentally this is due to poor writing - we have no oppurtunity to let the catalyst present his evidence, so we can either make a blind leap of faith that he is correct or we can remain unconvinced.

Actually there is more then jsut those options.  There is also the option of beleiving the reapers creators were inharently, mentally flawed or that it was an expariment gone wrong or it was a nation that was obsessed with ruling the galaxy so they turned themselves into these beings.  Seriously, there are so many variables that come into play because of this crap that the questions are near unending.

[idunhavaname]

Yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthethics...

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Ok, your right. It's nonsense. Pure nonsense. The fact that the Geth were not true AI until Legion made them so doesn't mean anything. The fact that Cerberus was doing wahtever it took at that time to create a perfect AI doesn't matter...and as I pointed out in an earlier post if you were to tell people "We know you can make guns, but don't do it because they'll kill you" wouldn't stop someone like TIM from doing just that; because he could. The Reapers (from their perspective) acted when they did because what if Cerberus had succeeded? What if an AI developed that was so sophisticated that even the Reapers couldn't stop it...or worse it could control the Reapers? They acted on initiative was all I was saying. To view this as nonsense doesn't really do justice to the fact that the Reapers saw it this way, regardless of whether anyone else did or not.

So you're saying since nukes could wipe out all Civilization we humans know it, we should go ahead and nuke ourselves now to save the trouble.  Cause its very feasible that a nuclear war of epic proportions could drastically alter the ecosystem of the planet to point where it becomes unfit for human life.  Therefore, we should just blow up all but a few tribal nations and go back to the stone age.

The Reaper logic is pretty much exactly the same as the one in The Day the Earth Stood Still. Watch that movie if you haven't yet.

This is dodging the question.   I truly don't see the difference between the nuke scenario and the "potential AI killing everything" scenario the Reapers present.  And you're telling me some ancient all knowing being is going to come to the same conclusion I just presented.  To just bomb the hell out of everything because one day we may bomb things uncontrollably.  Its beyond absurd.

Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.

[Meltemph]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

So then you agree with them because they simply exist.  Which means you think the peopel who created them were infalible and I dont see how you could do that without knowing the initial need for the reapers.  Either way, you ARE treating them like a god(Star Gate anyone?).

I agree with them because they have no reason to lie and because we've seen evidence of what the star child has said in both our cycle and the Prothean cycle. Regardless of whether they were right or wrong when the Reapers were first created, they've been proven right throughout history.

So you are taking 2 cycles, where even Javik said they were winning the war and the other where it was actually looking GOOD for this cycle with its control of AI and saying that is all the proof you need for billions of years?  This is also ignoring the fact that they very well could have a reason for lying.  Like, you know, being incontrol of how this galaxy operates and syphoning the best of that cycle t oadd to their god hood.  They could literally be the equivalent of the Ori from Star Gate, but you are automatically assuming they are the ancients.  You assume they are telling the truth because of cycles the reapers have DIRECT control over, because they leave their tech to manipulate these cycles as they see fit.

Where you see care and nurturing of a galaxy, I see control and dominance, either way we BOTH could be wrong because we have no reason to trust or distrust what these things say, other then, "they are old".

Modifié par Meltemph, 16 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

So then you agree with them because they simply exist.  Which means you think the peopel who created them were infalible and I dont see how you could do that without knowing the initial need for the reapers.  Either way, you ARE treating them like a god(Star Gate anyone?).

I agree with them because they have no reason to lie and because we've seen evidence of what the star child has said in both our cycle and the Prothean cycle. Regardless of whether they were right or wrong when the Reapers were first created, they've been proven right throughout history.

They have no reason to lie.  A race of beings, that for all we know, *FEED* off our genetic material every 50k years and then go into hibernation to wait until there's enough sustainment to feed again, have no reason to lie.  Are you that dense?

We've seen evidence that sometimes AI & Organic life don't get along.  We've also seen evidence that AI can be pretty damn good to us and we can crush their hopes & dreams.  Why side with organic life over synthetic?  What truly makes the difference?  Why on earth would  they side with us by destroying us when they themselves are not organic?  Why would our "salvation" include turning us into synthetics?  Where does this apparently holiness of organics go when all of a sudden nothing is organic anymore.

There is absolutely no logic to the Reapers as they are explained.  Defending the current evidence you have is a fool's errand.  There could be more we're missing, but as is, defending them is just pointless.

[Duskfire]

Considering that the Reapers are meant to be helping the galaxy (help being a loose term) they seem to take alot of pleasure in killing people. Especially Harbinger and the way he constantly taunted Shepard.

[LTBK]

111987 wrote...

EDI multiasking while chilling on the Normandy is not equivalent. In battle, EDI is basically running the entire ship, launching cyberwarfare attacks, and defending against hacking. She's in no position to help. Same with the Geth.

That's the reason to use their combined processing power, instead of just EDI's. If each one of them just uses a 1% of it, they can still keep their attention of the fight while giving you a crapload of resources (really, how many improved geth there's still left?) to analyze the Crucible+Citadel system.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.

So if I kill you & put your head in a jar its not murder, cause I'm "preserving" your life.  I can claim your spirit lives on in my jar collection, therefore its k.

This is rediculous.

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

There is so much wrong with this theorey it makes my brain bleed.

First of all, *assuming* the Rachni were indeed Soveriegn's first attempt to retake the Citadel, I have to call WTF.  Soveriegn, the entity we can't begin to comprehend, is so baffled by a line of code introduced by a group of 14 scientists to the Citadel that he has to amass an entire army of bugs to overtake the entire galaxy (and completely ignoring the goal of his supposed invasion, the Citadel)?

Come on people.

Sovereign can't alter the Keepers without physically being there to alter them. Thus he has to find a way to physically reach the Citadel. Using the Rachni is ingenious. Sovereign controls them from afar. If they win, they destroy all resistance leading up to the Citadel, and he can freely fly in and activate the Citadel. If they lose, he still remainds hidden.

Remember, the plan would have worked if not for the Krogan.

Beast919 wrote...

Secondly, assuming the above doesn't break your brain's ability to think straight, even if he *fails* with this Rachni invasion, which is laughable in of itself, it takes him over 1000 years to find an Agent who can walk on to the Citadel and do a little recon for him?  I understand he's supposed to be portrayed as patient, but think about this.  He starts A GALAXY WIDE WAR WITH A RACE OF BUG PEOPLE......THEN CHILLS FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS CAUSE EVERYTHING IS FINE.

He can't just indoctrinate any agent. One random person isn't going to be able to take down Citadel security to ensure Sovereign can reach the Citadel Tower unimpeded. Not to mention Sovereign can't defeat all the fleets on his lonesome. He needs an army.

The risk with getting an agent is that if he isn't extremely careful, it could backfire big time if he is discovered.

That's why indoctrinating the Rachni worked well; you only need to indoctrinate the queen to control everyone. As for the Geth, they were't having interactions with organics so Sovereign knew it could reveal itself to them without negative repurcussions.

Beast919 wrote...

Finally, assuming you can shut your brain off long enough to get past those 2 glaring idiocies, the simple concept of "well, I think, somewhere around this time, things are gonna get bad for organics, I better come out of hibernation and start murdering civilizations" is so beyond retarded I can't believe you'd back it.

No idea what you're talking about here.

[OtaconUCF]

Meltemph wrote...

But, if they've seen it, hell it may have even been them that wiped out all organince life in another galaxy or something, it's not hard to see why they think this their logic is right.

Actually unless you are giving them divinity, it is very hard for me to see why they would except that line of reasoning at face value. The fact that th reapers exist means there was a creator which means there was a time before the reapers when people existed. There are SO MANY THINGS that come into play because the way they handled the ending and the concepts that they introduced, that it literally boggles my mind how people can look at the ending THAT simply.

You're misinterperting what they're saying. They're saying the Reapers clearly believe their logic is sound. Whether we/Shepard should agree with it based on our own experience is another matter entirely.

[Duskfire]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.

So if I kill you & put your head in a jar its not murder, cause I'm "preserving" your life.  I can claim your spirit lives on in my jar collection, therefore its k.

This is rediculous.

I think a better analogue would be its fine to kill people as long as their children are unharmed.