111987 wrote...
EDI multiasking while chilling on the Normandy is not equivalent. In battle, EDI is focusing on plotting a course to leave because her & Joker have given up on Shep.. She's in no position to help. Same with the Geth.
Beast919 wrote...
piemanz wrote...
Not really, because it proves that sovreign had infact tried to start the Reaper invasion 1000 years prior. Probably because it thought organics were on the cusp of creating synthetic life.
There is so much wrong with this theorey it makes my brain bleed.
First of all, *assuming* the Rachni were indeed Soveriegn's first attempt to retake the Citadel, I have to call WTF. Soveriegn, the entity we can't begin to comprehend, is so baffled by a line of code introduced by a group of 14 scientists to the Citadel that he has to amass an entire army of bugs to overtake the entire galaxy (and completely ignoring the goal of his supposed invasion, the Citadel)?
Come on people.
Secondly, assuming the above doesn't break your brain's ability to think straight, even if he *fails* with this Rachni invasion, which is laughable in of itself, it takes him over 1000 years to find an Agent who can walk on to the Citadel and do a little recon for him? I understand he's supposed to be portrayed as patient, but think about this. He starts A GALAXY WIDE WAR WITH A RACE OF BUG PEOPLE......THEN CHILLS FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS CAUSE EVERYTHING IS FINE.
Finally, assuming you can shut your brain off long enough to get past those 2 glaring idiocies, the simple concept of "well, I think, somewhere around this time, things are gonna get bad for organics, I better come out of hibernation and start murdering civilizations" is so beyond retarded I can't believe you'd back it.
You're misinterperting what they're saying. They're saying the Reapers clearly believe their logic is sound. Whether we/Shepard should agree with it based on our own experience is another matter entirely.
Duskfire wrote...
Beast919 wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.
So if I kill you & put your head in a jar its not murder, cause I'm "preserving" your life. I can claim your spirit lives on in my jar collection, therefore its k.
This is rediculous.
I think a better analogue would be its fine to kill people as long as their children are unharmed.
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.
Beast919 wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.
So if I kill you & put your head in a jar its not murder, cause I'm "preserving" your life. I can claim your spirit lives on in my jar collection, therefore its k.
This is rediculous.
Beast919 wrote...
They have no reason to lie. A race of beings, that for all we know, *FEED* off our genetic material every 50k years and then go into hibernation to wait until there's enough sustainment to feed again, have no reason to lie. Are you that dense?
Beast919 wrote...
We've seen evidence that sometimes AI & Organic life don't get along. We've also seen evidence that AI can be pretty damn good to us and we can crush their hopes & dreams.
Beast919 wrote...
Why side with organic life over synthetic? What truly makes the difference? Why on earth would they side with us by destroying us when they themselves are not organic? Why would our "salvation" include turning us into synthetics? Where does this apparently holiness of organics go when all of a sudden nothing is organic anymore.
Meltemph wrote...
You're misinterperting what they're saying. They're saying the Reapers clearly believe their logic is sound. Whether we/Shepard should agree with it based on our own experience is another matter entirely.
But we have NO reason to believe they believe it, other then they are old. There is so much we dont know about them that it is impossible to think the only things they could be is A or B.
OtaconUCF wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.
As Shepard said in his/her only real bit of defiance in the entire conversation, I think we'd rather keep our forms. Again the Reapers clearly believe what they're doing is right but I somehow doubt any of the race they've destroyed over the length of their existance would agree.
Meltemph wrote...
So you are taking 2 cycles, where even Javik said they were winning the war and the other where it was actually looking GOOD for this cycle with its control of AI and saying that is all the proof you need for billions of years? This is also ignoring the fact that they very well could have a reason for lying. Like, you know, being incontrol of how this galaxy operates and syphoning the best of that cycle t oadd to their god hood. They could literally be the equivalent of the Ori from Star Gate, but you are automatically assuming they are the ancients. You assume they are telling the truth because of cycles the reapers have DIRECT control over, because they leave their tech to manipulate these cycles as they see fit.
Where you see care and nurturing of a galaxy, I see control and dominance, either way we BOTH could be wrong because we have no reason to trust or distrust what these things say, other then, "they are old".
So following a similar logic, if the police or FBI discovers that there is a murderer living on your city block, then they should persecute and shoot every single person on the block to insure that they got the murderer then. So I also assume that you believe that the genophage was a great idea as well. You cannot justify wiping out entire species based on some redetermined idea that a single member or group of that species might have the potential to cause mass destruction.Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Iztiak wrote...
It's still absolutely terrible logic.
He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.
Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.
Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.
Truly a terrible ending.
Tehy only wipe out the advanced, or threatening species and leave the less advanced to live. There will always be someone like TIM who will attempt to 'progress' AI for their own purposes.
The point Catalyst makes is that eventually an AI will attempt to wipe out ALL organic life; meaning the less advanced as well. So in that, they are actually saving the lesser species; otherwise had they not intervened during Protean time period then humans may have been killed by the AI that was sweeping across the galaxy.
111987 wrote...
Kandon Arc wrote...
111987 wrote...
Kandon Arc wrote...
Obviously not the norm? We have 2/3 examples of AI in this game and they all function against the catalyst's reasoning, yet they're not the norm? Norms come from evidence. I see none that supports the catalyst.
The Catalyst/Reapers have had billions of years of experience, and have seen the cycle repeat itself every time. That's a hell of a lot more evidence than EDI (who is in love with an organic...definitely not the norm) and the Geth (who have been true AI's for only a few days).
And thus we get to the real problem - the catalyst's arguments aren't logically falsifiable. There is no possible argument against the catalyst that cannot be responded to with "he has much more experience than you". Therefore no meaningful debate on his views can be had. We must either accept that he is correct because he has undefined experience to support him; or we can believe the evidence the game has presented us with up to this point and reject his views.
Fundamentally this is due to poor writing - we have no oppurtunity to let the catalyst present his evidence, so we can either make a blind leap of faith that he is correct or we can remain unconvinced.
The starchild does say though that the cycle of synthetics and organics fighting each other has repeated itself every time. We have no way of knowing whether he's right or not, but then again, why would he lie about it? Also, the fact that the Protheans underwent a similar situation lends massive support to the starchild's argument.
OtaconUCF wrote...
Meltemph wrote...
You're misinterperting what they're saying. They're saying the Reapers clearly believe their logic is sound. Whether we/Shepard should agree with it based on our own experience is another matter entirely.
But we have NO reason to believe they believe it, other then they are old. There is so much we dont know about them that it is impossible to think the only things they could be is A or B.
Neither of us is saying we have any reason to believe it, just that the Reapers clearly seem to. I'm in agreement that Shepard shouldn't just accept what the boss of the things trying to kill everyone says.
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
OtaconUCF wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Did you pay attention at all to what Catalyst said? They 'preserve' organic life in Reaper form so that it can continue to exist. That isn't the same thing as murder to them. In The Day the Earth Stood Still an alien comes to wipe out all human life on earth because we are destroying our planet. Like I said, it is the exact same motive as the Reapers, except the alien wasn't preserving human life in any way; it was just going to kill us all so that life on this planet could continue to exist.
As Shepard said in his/her only real bit of defiance in the entire conversation, I think we'd rather keep our forms. Again the Reapers clearly believe what they're doing is right but I somehow doubt any of the race they've destroyed over the length of their existance would agree.
Exactly, who would really want that as an outcome? They just foresaw an extinction event and wanted to prevent it. Their method for preserving was pretty cold and ruthless; but can't argue with it's effectiveness. I never said I agreed with their methods; I only said I can see why they did what they did from a Devils Advocate standpoint lol.
Guest_Lawgunner_*
111987 wrote...
Sovereign can't alter the Keepers without physically being there to alter them. Thus he has to find a way to physically reach the Citadel. Using the Rachni is ingenious. Sovereign controls them from afar. If they win, they destroy all resistance leading up to the Citadel, and he can freely fly in and activate the Citadel. If they lose, he still remainds hidden.
Remember, the plan would have worked if not for the Krogan.
The plan is so vague and random it is not ingenious. He's essentially trying to do the entire purpose of the reapers with a single organic race, by himself. And the fact that its "almost worked" makes the entire plot of the reapers even more absurd. Why would he go from straight up ballsy "start an entire war with the Rachni" to a series of lightning-strike cowardly attacks with the Geth? Why not repeat the strategy? If anything, the Geth would have been *easier* to achieve a Galactic war due to their remarkable ability to replicate.
He can't just indoctrinate any agent. One random person isn't going to be able to take down Citadel security to ensure Sovereign can reach the Citadel Tower unimpeded. Not to mention Sovereign can't defeat all the fleets on his lonesome. He needs an army.
The risk with getting an agent is that if he isn't extremely careful, it could backfire big time if he is discovered.
All he *needed* to do was get intel on the Keepers, figure out what code had been injected into them, and then modify it accordingly. Even if he couldn't pull off the last step without personal interaction, I think within 1000 years he could have found someone to poke a Keeper with a stick and get some info.
That's why indoctrinating the Rachni worked well; you only need to indoctrinate the queen to control everyone. As for the Geth, they were't having interactions with organics so Sovereign knew it could reveal itself to them without negative repurcussions.
I'm still not convinced the Rachni war makes any sense at all. If they're so notable for how easily they reproduce, Sovereign simply had to protect *ONE* resource, the Queen, from total extinction, and yet he manages to get outplayed by organics *COMPLETELY*?! Even if his war was a failure, losing an entire species is a collosal stroke of idiocy.
No idea what you're talking about here.
Assuming Sov started the Rachni war as a lead-in to the Reaper invasion also assumes that he started the Reaper invasion on pure supposition - there was no evidence to support AI getting out of hand at that time, and wouldn't be for another 700+ years. Therefore, he's initiating the genocide of galactic society on a guess. Really beyond comprehension there Sov, sure is.
Modifié par Beast919, 16 mars 2012 - 02:36 .
AdeptusAstartes wrote...
The Catalyst has every reason TO lie, it was mentioned previously that Reapers can be beaten, in fact every time they're engaged in battle in this particular installment (Or in ME1 and ME2, albeit the Reaper in 2 isn't completeted), they are defeated. Never through 'conventional' means as you mentioned before as being impossible to stop them with, but with clever thinking brought forth by Shepard and their crew. To be in the presence of Shepard and know that EVERY TIME Shepard has gone up against a Reaper they have found a way to win should put well earned fear into the mind of the Catalyst. That would even lend an explanation as to why the Reapers in general and Harbinger in particular have an interest in Shepard. They can be beaten, and have been beaten. It's in the Catalysts best interests to lie to Shepard so they will take one of the Catalysts three choices. Dissuading Shepard from the cherry ending is because it is the least desirable as not only will it destroy the Reapers and likely the Catalyst itself, but the entire relay network and any possibility of the Reapers fulfilling their goals.
Duskfire wrote...
I cant believe people are sticking up for the godchilds logic, which is ridiculous. Shepard not only proves it wrong by the Geth/Quarian relationship, he proves it wrong by being Shep there in the first place, which the godchild admits But instead of offering the simpliest alternative, which is: "Well, I'll send the Reapers off again and keep an eye to make sure synthetics dont spiral out of control in the future" he instead offers three outcomes, none of which actually solve a thing.
.Its not really great logic when it can be so easily disproven by events that are happening.
Duskfire wrote...
I cant believe people are sticking up for the godchilds logic, which is ridiculous. Shepard not only proves it wrong by the Geth/Quarian relationship, he proves it wrong by being Shep there in the first place, which the godchild admits But instead of offering the simpliest alternative, which is: "Well, I'll send the Reapers off again and keep an eye to make sure synthetics dont spiral out of control in the future" he instead offers three outcomes, none of which actually solve a thing.
.Its not really great logic when it can be so easily disproven by events that are happening.
Ishiken wrote...
So following a similar logic, if the police or FBI discovers that there is a murderer living on your city block, then they should persecute and shoot every single person on the block to insure that they got the murderer then. So I also assume that you believe that the genophage was a great idea as well. You cannot justify wiping out entire species based on some redetermined idea that a single member or group of that species might have the potential to cause mass destruction.Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Iztiak wrote...
It's still absolutely terrible logic.
He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.
Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.
Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.
Truly a terrible ending.
Tehy only wipe out the advanced, or threatening species and leave the less advanced to live. There will always be someone like TIM who will attempt to 'progress' AI for their own purposes.
The point Catalyst makes is that eventually an AI will attempt to wipe out ALL organic life; meaning the less advanced as well. So in that, they are actually saving the lesser species; otherwise had they not intervened during Protean time period then humans may have been killed by the AI that was sweeping across the galaxy.
Modifié par Monochrome Wench, 16 mars 2012 - 02:38 .
Those two cycles are all the evidence we have.
There's no other way of seeing what happened in previous cycles.
We HAVE to work with the evidence given to us, and that evidence points towards the Reaper's being right about the cycle or organics and synthetics.
It doesn't matter that the Protheans were winning their war. They would eventually create even more advanced AI, which would eventually complete the task of wiping out organics.
The Reapers wouldn't continue the cycle if they hadn't seen evidence of the cycle repeating itself over and over and over again. Why would they?
111987 wrote...
No, and leave the personal attacks behind. Can you give me an example of where they have lied in the series? What does what you are saying have anything to do with what I was saying?
You said they had no reason to lie. Thats one very good reason to lie. We have *zero* evidence to support them telling the truth, only their incredible superiority. And since we know they're created by devouring entire civilizations, I'd doubt they got that superiority by "doing the right thing" just because they say so.
No, we've seen the Geth cooperate with organics for about a week, and EDI, who is highly unusual as she is in love with
Geth did not start the war, Quarians did. Quariands did not end the war, Geth did. Geth did not start the second war, Quarians did. Quarians do not end the second war, Geth do. Thats pretty goddamned compelling evidence.
The Reapers, at their core, are organic. They are a collective consciousness made up of the minds of billions of organics. They are our salvation because they free us from the cycle of creating synthetics that will eventually go to war with us, and it also preserves our species indefintely in an immortal machine body.
I was not aware they were collective and yet had personal names. Is there a definitive answer one way or the other? Doesn't really matter regardless. They only *claim* to be our salvation by *claiming* there is an inevitable death approaching. What we *know* is they're eating our entire civilization. I preserved part of a cow for dinner tonight, that makes me its savior right?
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