597 réponses à ce sujet

[Si-Shen]

The concept that no matter what, every cycle a synthetic race will wipe out all organic life is flawed, if that were true, the Geth would have acted aggresively as a whole, rather then being initially forced into action by the Reapers on ME1, again in ME2, and in ME3 we see that although they went to the Reapers willingly, they went in response to an attack. They never sought out a goal that involved ending organic life. The only evidence that makes that failed logic accurate is the Reapers actions themselves, there is no other proof that this is an absolute.

Even in the DLC, it only mentions the Protheans were fighting a war prior to the invasion at the time, no real mention on how they were doing, etc.

Logic like the Starchilds is flawed horribly, the possibility of peace between the Geth and Quarians and the two working together is evidence of this.

[sadako]

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

Because it's more fun to destroy organic life.. and they need organic goo to make more reapers.

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Must be playing a different game, because every time I went into a battle that featured a Reaper, it was defeated. Using tactics that can be repeated. I mean I guess since we're going with writer's fiat then the combined organic forces in the Galaxy stand no chance on their own without the mythical Crucible, who we're told will stop all this by the GUIDING INTELLIGENCE of the force hell bent on wiping out advanced organic life for the nominal purpose of preserving other lives. That's a logical fallacy of the highest order. Right down to the circular logic employed by the Catalyst, which has been pointed out time and time again in this thread of being WRONG.

"We don't know for how long though!"

"Well, better drink my own liquid waste excretion."

By accepting the Catalyst's premise that an ancient machine that has done nothing but try and exterminate you and everyone else like you knows whats best for you shows a complete lack of logic, reason, and possibly even higher brain functioning. 

Come on. The Reapers were clearly winning the war. You have to know this.

I've seen no evidence that the Starchild's logic is wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't still be debating this. You haven't provided anything disproving Starchild's claims.

I have, on several occasions. I assume you've played the games so you'll remember the times when you've fought Reapers. How did those battles turn out?

You've been shown repeatedly by multiple people, myself included of direct contradictions to the Catalyst's 'logic'. If you fail to see, grasp or acknowledge it, that's your failing. Not mine.

I do find it incredibly interesting that two people can see the same thing, but come to completely different conclusions. I suppose it comes down to outlook on life in general.

So you're saying we could have defeated the Reapers conventionally?

Because that simply is not true.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Chorban's email: "And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react
to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand
years."

It's an approximation. What's 1000 years to the Reapers?

I was going to continue our debate but I've finally decided you're beyond hope.  The entire point of what the Reapers is doing, in theorey, is to prevent an AI from reaching a stage where it can out-do them and crush all organic life.  And you're saying 1000 years of evolution is irrelevant. 

You sir, have lost.  If 1000 years of evolution past the point at which things are grim enough to warrant galatic extinction are not a worthwhile risk, there's no point in even thinking about this anymore.  Its just stupid.

[Genera1Nemesis]

@ Forgottenlord; I really wish we could be sitting in a coffee shop right now instead of typing this out; I can tell I would enjoy discussing more than just this topic with you.

My original argument was simply that given what we are given in the narrative the Catalyst's conclusions that synthetics or 'the created' will always rebel against their created is a theme explored throughout Mass Effect 1-3. Many people have claimed that it is; for lack of better terms as I'm extremely tired right now; retarded logic, and I was simply trying to provide a basis for which people might get a better understanding and thus more enjoyment out of their experience with the games as a whole.

One thing I will add is that I think the execution of the story was poorly done. It certainly could have been written better, and maybe things could have been placed in better context as the story pulled us to the Catalyst's eventual motivation reveal. I just wanted to provide a few bullet points so that people can gloss over it and debate the philosophical question that the Catalyst represents in that final conversation.

As to your final questions; I do not believe that Catalyst was justified by the amount of time we are given with him (it) without the ability to question it directly in-game. I simply wished to provide a basis for finding that understanding based on what little we were given in relation to Catalyst's importance in the story, if that makes sense.

In short; I'm doing the job Bioware should have done, or should be doing right now.

[111987]

OtaconUCF wrote...


Where in the current cycle did the Reaper's assertion hold true? The Geth never acted as an aggressor in interactions with other sentient species without the direction of the Reapers causing them to first.

Project Overlord.

OtaconUCF wrote...

Individual Geth programs weren't true AI, no, but the consensus was intelligent. At the point where the first Geth platform was able to ask if it had a soul the Geth as a collective were self aware and therefore truely intelligent. And the Consensus never decided aggressive war against organics was something they wanted to pursue. It actively pursued isolation and peace, again until the Reapers, champions of making sure Synthetics are never in a position to rise up and wipe out organic life, turn up and bribe a faction into it. Legion, the first Geth to self actualize and identify itself as I rather than We, and the one that gave true intelligence to every individual Geth program outside the will of the whole, was a friend and ally of organics. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean the Catalyst is right and it's inevitable that they'll attempt to destroy anyone. Their entire history argues otherwise.

Their entire history is irrelevant, because they were not AI yet. They've had about a week of existence as an AI. Now THAT is a small sample size. Even Shepard and the Quarians worry about how the peace will last. I'm not just making this up.

Modifié par 111987, 16 mars 2012 - 03:07 .

[Tony208]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

For all we know the Reapers always push Synthetics to turn on Organics. Probably happened the last cycle with the Protheans. We should take none of what they say at face value, remember that they're trying to kill us.

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Chorban's email: "And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react
to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand
years."

It's an approximation. What's 1000 years to the Reapers?

I was going to continue our debate but I've finally decided you're beyond hope.  The entire point of what the Reapers is doing, in theorey, is to prevent an AI from reaching a stage where it can out-do them and crush all organic life.  And you're saying 1000 years of evolution is irrelevant. 

You sir, have lost.  If 1000 years of evolution past the point at which things are grim enough to warrant galatic extinction are not a worthwhile risk, there's no point in even thinking about this anymore.  Its just stupid.

You're forgetting that Sovereign is constantly monitoring the galaxy. If he had thought at any point an AI that could challenge the Reapers was to come into existence, he likely would have accelerated his plans.

The Geth do not count. They are considered primitive by the Reapers, and of no real threat. There was still no urgency for the Reapers.

[forgottenlord]

adam_nox wrote...

The problem with the series is that we wanted to know why the reapers did what they did, and there's no answer that would ever both satisfy us and make sense.  Only a simple answer makes sense, but it's not satisfactory, and as we see, trying to give them a motivation that isn't absolute malevolence doesn't play well with ME's audience either.

"Better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"

Either you need a really awesome, unquestionable reason, a really original and cool reason, a really advanced reason that's beyond the layman's ability to dispute, or you should just leave it without a reason - or take the easy option and suggest it's just them being arrogant jerks trying to convince us that they're truly superior in every way.

[Rombomm]

Sovereign first activated during the Rachni Wars (about 300AD in earth time), and long before synthetics threatened the galaxy. Also, Javik implies that they DEFEATED the Zha'til.

[Meltemph]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

What if? That is all you got?  We have no idea, and again, you are treating them as a god hood, because they are old.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Chorban's email: "And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react
to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand
years."

It's an approximation. What's 1000 years to the Reapers?

I was going to continue our debate but I've finally decided you're beyond hope.  The entire point of what the Reapers is doing, in theorey, is to prevent an AI from reaching a stage where it can out-do them and crush all organic life.  And you're saying 1000 years of evolution is irrelevant. 

You sir, have lost.  If 1000 years of evolution past the point at which things are grim enough to warrant galatic extinction are not a worthwhile risk, there's no point in even thinking about this anymore.  Its just stupid.

You're forgetting that Sovereign is constantly monitoring the galaxy. If he had thought at any point an AI that could challenge the Reapers was to come into existence, he likely would have accelerated his plans.

The Geth do not count. They are considered primitive by the Reapers, and of no real threat. There was still no urgency for the Reapers.

You're falling back into the other fallacy of the entire argument.  If Soveriegn is content to simply sit back and wait for something to happen, there is inherantly no reason to purge the galaxy on a whim in the first place.  If its ok to wait & respond, there's no need for pre-emptive extinction.  No matter which way you play this, it is simply not logical.

[111987]

Tony208 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

For all we know the Reapers always push Synthetics to turn on Organics. Probably happened the last cycle with the Protheans. We should take none of what they say at face value, remember that they're trying to kill us.

Yes, but they have no reason to lie about it to justify their cycle. They are trying to kill us for a reason. When they reveal that reason, we have no real reason to not accept it.

[SolonTheWhite]

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

Your logic is invalid. It is entirly based on "what ifs". We cannot know until it is given a chanse to happen.

[111987]

Meltemph wrote...

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

What if? That is all you got?  We have no idea, and again, you are treating them as a god hood, because they are old.

I'm not treating them as Gods. But who would you be more inclined to believe; a person with limited experience, or a person with a lot of experience? And when I say a lot, I mean, like basically infinite experience.

[111987]

SolonTheWhite wrote...

111987 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

It's not a small sample size. It's a sample size of billions of years and thousand of cycles. We have knowledge of two cycles, and in both cycles the Reapers assertion has held true.

Huh? Of the 2 sample sizes, the we have no inclination that the geth or the ones in Javiks cycle had a CHANCE of wiping us out. It is all supposition, presented in a light(By the reapers) to try and get you to agree. But your "proof" is incredibly flmisy and requires you to play fortune teller.

The Reaper's proof is their experience...

In the two sample sizes, the AI created weren't yet advanced enough to wipe out organics. But what if in those cycles organics continued to advance? More advanced AI's would have followed, which could have led to the extermination of organics.

Your logic is invalid. It is entirly based on "what ifs". We cannot know until it is given a chanse to happen.

Everyone else's logic seems to be "The Reapers are just lying", without any proof of it. In my mind, that's worse. Which is probably why I don't see fault with the Starchild's logic.

I'm working off the evidence we have at hand. Other people are working off the assumption that evidence is false, despitw having no evidence that said evidence is false.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

I'm not treating them as Gods. But who would you be more inclined to believe; a person with limited experience, or a person with a lot of experience? And when I say a lot, I mean, like basically infinite experience.

Not the question.  The question is do you accept at face value the stories told you to by a god-child representing a race of Sentient Machines trying to eradicate galatic civilization.

Anything beyond that referring to their "experience" and "infinite knoweldge" is supposition.  The most you have to go on is this has happened before - how many times is unknown, why is unknown.

Taking the murderer of your ancestor's words at face value is about the dumbest concept I can imagine.

Perhaps he's telling the truth.  Perhaps he's lying.

But if we're simply going to assume he's telling the truth, the Mass Effect series ends at Virmire when Shepard first talks to Sovereign. 

Modifié par Beast919, 16 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Ishiken]

As EDI evolved, she became more and more like organics. EDI basically states right before the last battle that she would risk being permanently made non-functionable to preserve the lives of the Normandy crew. Legion experienced emotions and believes that he has a soul. Project Overlord was always a giant plot hole for me. First if David Archer was powerful enough to control the geth and take over the entire planet. I fail to see why he couldn't control them to remove him from his shackles. Second Project Overlord was never a pure AI, it was a combination of an AI and an emotionally stunted and scared teenager.

[Zofiya]

111987 wrote...

I've seen no evidence that the Starchild's logic is wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't still be debating this. You haven't provided anything disproving Starchild's claims.

The burden of proof is on Star Child. Star Child says that synthetic/organic conflict is inevitable, but offers no evidence to support this claim other than "it has happened before". There is no discussion of its position, no opportunity to argue -- and, importantly, no chance for Star Child to say that the geth/quarian peace is an abnormality, or try to convince us that it will not last. Just because Star Child believes it doesn't mean that it is true.

So maybe we haven't convinced you that Star Child's logic is wrong.

But Star Child hasn't given us any reason to believe that its conclusion is true.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...
Everyone else's logic seems to be "The Reapers are just lying", without any proof of it. In my mind, that's worse. Which is probably why I don't see fault with the Starchild's logic.

The Reapers do lie. Sovereign told us we couldn't understand it's purpose. Clearly that was a crock of BS, since we can summarize their whole reason for existing in a sentence. So why exactly should we buy this thing? 

I'm working off the evidence we have at hand. Other people are working off the assumption that evidence is false, despitw having no evidence that said evidence is false.

Except for the fact that the Geth were totally non-violent, never wiped out the Quarians at all even when they had the chance, and then willingly made peace with them in the end?

[Wolfen919]

 This thread... okay... I see your opinion, but I reveal my trap card:

Modifié par Wolfen919, 16 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Brian.V3]

I like the deux ex machina thing better. In fact BioWare should have called it that since in the beginning instead of the catalyst. It would have quelled a lot of people. Cause making sense of the catalyst is almost trying to make sense of a certain character called the architect from a certain franchise i refuse to acknowledge had any sequels.

[Genera1Nemesis]

There is no reason to believe that at the end of the game Catalyst would lie to you. C'mon, it was the big reveal. You really think Bioware just filled it with b.s.?

[Peer of the Empire]

Tony208 wrote...

So if one cycle never develops synthetics, they get wiped out anyway. How is that fair at all?

The whole thing makes no sense, stop trying to defend it.

As the saying goes, committing suicide out of fear of death.

However, Reapers are not wrong about AIs.  Presuming a universe where AIs are possible

[OtaconUCF]

111987 wrote...

OtaconUCF wrote...


Where in the current cycle did the Reaper's assertion hold true? The Geth never acted as an aggressor in interactions with other sentient species without the direction of the Reapers causing them to first.

Project Overlord.

OtaconUCF wrote...

Individual Geth programs weren't true AI, no, but the consensus was intelligent. At the point where the first Geth platform was able to ask if it had a soul the Geth as a collective were self aware and therefore truely intelligent. And the Consensus never decided aggressive war against organics was something they wanted to pursue. It actively pursued isolation and peace, again until the Reapers, champions of making sure Synthetics are never in a position to rise up and wipe out organic life, turn up and bribe a faction into it. Legion, the first Geth to self actualize and identify itself as I rather than We, and the one that gave true intelligence to every individual Geth program outside the will of the whole, was a friend and ally of organics. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean the Catalyst is right and it's inevitable that they'll attempt to destroy anyone. Their entire history argues otherwise.

Their entire history is irrelevant, because they were not AI yet. They've had about a week of existence as an AI. Now THAT is a small sample size. Even Shepard and the Quarians worry about how the peace will last. I'm not just making this up.

Individual programs weren't. The Consensus itself was intelligent. Let me say that again...

The Geth Consensus was Self-Aware. It asked the Quarians if they had a soul. They possessed sapeience.

All Legion's merging back with the Geth at the end of the Geth/Quarian section does is elevate every individual program to that same level of sentience. If you're seriously going to try to sit here and argue that there was no intelligence behind the Geth then it's pointless to continue.