597 réponses à ce sujet

[Zolt51]

OP: Your explanation is of course correct.

If I were you however I'd refrain for saying he is RIGHT though. That's just begging for flamewar.
Better say it makes sense, in a horrible, purely logical kind of way.

Of course from a human point of view it's evil and twisted. But without someone, somewhere being evil and twisted there would be no villain to beat, and thus no game.

[Genera1Nemesis]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...
The Heretics chose to do so only at the behest of the StarKid's agent.  And they were defeated.  Both of which argue against the StarKid's philosophy and it personally.

The fact that the temptation for greater power would make them willingly go against organics supports the Starchld, does it not? Regardless of where that temptation comes from.

Hogwash!

If that fact that a particular form of life is capable of producing corruptible and/or dangerous individuals and/or factions makes it worthy of having its rise prevented at all costs, then ALL forms of sapient life need to be prevented from arising, not just synthetics. 

But synthetics advance faster than organics. EDI was constantly upgrading. A determined AI can hack anything; I'm sure if the Geth heretics saw a potential for advancement by killing organics they would likely continue this course to continue advancing. Eventually they would advance so fast that we can't stop them. They may eventually come to the conclusion that organics will always try to kill them, so the best couse is to pre-emptively kill every organic that evolve into sentience.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...
The Heretics chose to do so only at the behest of the StarKid's agent.  And they were defeated.  Both of which argue against the StarKid's philosophy and it personally.

The fact that the temptation for greater power would make them willingly go against organics supports the Starchld, does it not? Regardless of where that temptation comes from.

Hogwash!

If that fact that a particular form of life is capable of producing corruptible and/or dangerous individuals and/or factions makes it worthy of having its rise prevented at all costs, then ALL forms of sapient life need to be prevented from arising, not just synthetics. 

That argument works if organics=synthetics. Obviously to the Reapers, that is not the case. The Reapers, in their own twisted way, actually prefer organics to synthetics. Sovereign hated the Geth, as did Harbinger. Harbinger loves organics though.

It could be because the Reapers themselves are organics, and thus are predjudiced against AI.

[OtaconUCF]

There's another way where the Reapers are causing their cycle to self perpetuate. Sovereign talks about how the Citadel and the Mass Relays are in place to ensure that organics evolve along the paths they desire.

If that's really the case, then they're intentionally directing organic life in such a way that they believe their cycle is required, no?

[Peer of the Empire]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Only sith deal in absolutes.

And the sith defeated the jedi

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

In the last two cycles, organics triumphed over synthetics and organics and synthetics managed to find accomodation respectively.  Neither of which fits the StarKid's mold.

Starchild never said that wasn't possible. He just said that eventually the Created will always turn on the Creators. We saw this in the Prothean's time, with the Heretic Geth, the Luna VI and Overlord AI.

As organics advance, so do their AI's. Eventually, an AI will be created that dooms organics. That's the starchild's argument. We haven't seen this 'advanced' AI because the Reapers invade before it happens.

The Prothean's synthetic adversaries and the Heretics were both defeated, the Luna VI became friendly (very friendly to Joker), and Overlord was not an AI. 

In fact the only "civilization destroying AI" we do see is the StarKid itself.  For the foreseeable future, the problem of evil machines destroying organic life ends with its destruction.

The Reapers invade before the organic races become advanced enough to develop a truly threatening AI. Waiting until after it happened would defeat the purpose of the cycle.

[Peer of the Empire]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
But synthetics advance faster than organics. EDI was constantly upgrading. A determined AI can hack anything; I'm sure if the Geth heretics saw a potential for advancement by killing organics they would likely continue this course to continue advancing. Eventually they would advance so fast that we can't stop them. They may eventually come to the conclusion that organics will always try to kill them, so the best couse is to pre-emptively kill every organic that evolve into sentience.

Yes, AI are tireless and rapidly improving.  On the timescale of eternity, Star Satan / King Reaper is right.  I still destroyed the Reapers

[111987]

OtaconUCF wrote...

There's another way where the Reapers are causing their cycle to self perpetuate. Sovereign talks about how the Citadel and the Mass Relays are in place to ensure that organics evolve along the paths they desire.

If that's really the case, then they're intentionally directing organic life in such a way that they believe their cycle is required, no?

Without the mass relays, civilizations could exist without the Reaper's knowledge and advance to points past what is acceptable to the Reapers. They wouldn't want some super advanced AI to develop without their knowledge of it.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...
But if you accept that the Starchild is telling the truth (which we don't have any reason not to; as someone said, it's supposed to be the big reveal of the game), then you can see why the Reapers do what they do, right? That's what I'm trying to say here; the logic is sound if you believe what the Reapers are saying. The Reapers clearly believe what they are saying. Thus their logic, from their perspective is sound.

Hold up. Your argument is that if we assume the Space Gold Child is right about everything, then it's totally right about everything? I hope you see the problem with that.

More importantly, the Space Baby contradicts itself. Insofar as the Reapers are AI/synethic, it is necessarily true that not all AI/synthetics will inevitably kill all organics.

[agathokakological]

 OP has been indoctrinated.

Don't feed the Reapers.

[Genera1Nemesis]

OtaconUCF wrote...

There's another way where the Reapers are causing their cycle to self perpetuate. Sovereign talks about how the Citadel and the Mass Relays are in place to ensure that organics evolve along the paths they desire.

If that's really the case, then they're intentionally directing organic life in such a way that they believe their cycle is required, no?

Yes, they are guiding us to this because if just one synthetic lifeform advances too fast and decides to wipe out organics, the Reapers might not be able to stop it. The Citadel relay trap is the only way they could assure victory and thus ensure that organic life will always continue.

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
But if you accept that the Starchild is telling the truth (which we don't have any reason not to; as someone said, it's supposed to be the big reveal of the game), then you can see why the Reapers do what they do, right? That's what I'm trying to say here; the logic is sound if you believe what the Reapers are saying. The Reapers clearly believe what they are saying. Thus their logic, from their perspective is sound.

Hold up. Your argument is that if we assume the Space Gold Child is right about everything, then it's totally right about everything? I hope you see the problem with that.

More importantly, the Space Baby contradicts itself. Insofar as the Reapers are AI/synethic, it is necessarily true that not all AI/synthetics will inevitably kill all organics.

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

[Genera1Nemesis]

agathokakological wrote...

 OP has been indoctrinated.

Don't feed the Reapers.

Lol, maybe. What's that sound.....you hear that sound?

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

It's terrible logic. We can hit this from so many angles but this time we'll take the, this isn't a trait exclusive to synthetics.

What if the Salarians failed to create the genophage and the Krogan killed every other race in the universe? You can argue that this outcome is inevitable, eventually one organic race will wipe out all the others. Would this be acceptable to the reapers? So long as it's not synthetics?

This is before we establish that the Catalyst disproves his own theory that ALL synthetics inevitably will wipeout ALL organics. Which is a post that I'm too tired to recite at this point.

[Zofiya]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

There is no reason to believe that at the end of the game Catalyst would lie to you. C'mon, it was the big reveal. You really think Bioware just filled it with b.s.?

This is an extradiegetic argument; it relies on knowledge of what the storyteller's intentions are rather than being supported in the story itself.

From Shepard's point of view, there is no way to determine whether or not Star Child is lying, and no reason to believe that it is not, which is why the forced choice is unsatisfactory. If we were offered the chance to try to figure out if Star Child was telling the truth, that would factor into our decision at the end; we are not, and therefore Shepard, and the player, are railroaded into a choice whose legitimacy depends on authorial intent.

It is one of the ways in which the ending is flawed.

[Skyblade012]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
But if you accept that the Starchild is telling the truth (which we don't have any reason not to; as someone said, it's supposed to be the big reveal of the game), then you can see why the Reapers do what they do, right? That's what I'm trying to say here; the logic is sound if you believe what the Reapers are saying. The Reapers clearly believe what they are saying. Thus their logic, from their perspective is sound.

Hold up. Your argument is that if we assume the Space Gold Child is right about everything, then it's totally right about everything? I hope you see the problem with that.

More importantly, the Space Baby contradicts itself. Insofar as the Reapers are AI/synethic, it is necessarily true that not all AI/synthetics will inevitably kill all organics.

Moreover, we have proof that they won't.  EDI, a fully unshackled AI, reprograms herself to work better with humans.

You can broker peace between quarians and geth, and Legion can die without ever having risen up against his creators.  Seriously, he never shoots a quarian, except in a video game.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

Then you're wrong, because the Space Baby's argument is a contradiction.

[forgottenlord]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

[mgoss]

Just because you got the Quarians and Geth to become allies, doesn't mean it will last forever. You telling the godchild isn't gonna change his mind.

Shepard: "Both the Quarians and Geth are now allies"
God Child: "Oh my bad, LOL sorry for ****ing up your galaxy." "Reapers roll out! Let them live!"

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

But if you accept that the Starchild is telling the truth (which we don't have any reason not to; as someone said, it's supposed to be the big reveal of the game), then you can see why the Reapers do what they do, right? That's what I'm trying to say here; the logic is sound if you believe what the Reapers are saying. The Reapers clearly believe what they are saying. Thus their logic, from their perspective is sound.

Saying someone's argument is true simply because they believe it is a horrible idea.

And we don't *know* that its the big reveal for the game.  This could be indoc, this could be a horribly botched editing job, this could be just plain BAD, the point is, assuming godchild speaks truth is a terrible notion.  Especially when every single event we've seen thus far conflicts with it.

And again, even going back to *assuming* this cycle has revealed itself over time, and the Reapers *are* our salvation through destruction, their methods are horrifically absurd and inefficient for being such highly-evolved beings.  Lying in wait for 1000 years after a failed Rachni invasion is absurd.  So much can happen in 1000 years.  And if they do not need to be pre-emptive, they simply do not need to be pre-emptive - it completely negates the need for a galactic purge before anything has gone wrong.

You raise good points about the Heretic Geth. You're right, they only targeted organics for power, not because of fear/hatred of organics. However they still did ruthlessly attack anyone who came near them for centuries, and the true Geth did nothing to aid organics in the fight against Sovereign.

You must not be thinking clearly about our own history.  Territorial combat is a very common theme in human history, and is often incredibly violent with little reason behind it.  Outsiders were viewed as sub-human, devils, barbarians, etc.  People rationilized the on-sight murder of cultures for centuries.  The Geth are no different.  They were taken advantage of, and did the only logical thing they could come up with at the time - defended their homes and selves.  They never struck out, but they were not going to be taken advantage of again.

The fact that they overcome this bias and eventually allow the possibility of peace is YET AGAIN proof that this entire argument is absurd.

It's different in ME3, because Shepard has the power to destroy or control the Reapers. He knows he has the power in this case. It's a different situation.

It is no different  whatsoever.  Let me paint you another picture.

ME2, Collector Base: TIM suggests controlling the reapers.  Shepard says "uh, you know, how bout no."

ME3, Mars : TIM suggests controlling the reapers, Shepard finds altered human cerberus troops proving evidence of attempts, Shepard says "uh, you know, thats horrifying, and no."

ME3, Cerberus Base:  Shepard finds proof of TIM keeping the remains of the human reaper, finds more detailed documents of Reaper experiments - begins to question his own involvement with Reaper technology during Lazarus experiment - Shepard says "Yeah this is still bogus, going with no."

ME3, Citadel, Interior: TIM suggests he has control over reapers, demonstrates by controlling Shepard/Anderson.  Shepard/Anderson deny him in Unison, Shepard convinces TIM he is not only failing to control reapers, but has completely lost hope of resisting them beyond mere moments - TIM shoots himself.  Shepard once again proves he is thinking "Yeah controlling reapers = bad"

ME3, Citadel, Exterior, 3 minutes later:  Starchild suggests controlling Reapers.  Shepard goes "OKIE DOKIE!!! TIME TO FRY MYSELF AND BECOME BIG DADDY REAPER!"

HOLY HELL do you not understand how absurd this is.

[In Exile]

mgoss wrote...

Just because you got the Quarians and Geth to become allies, doesn't mean it will last forever. You telling the godchild isn't gonna change his mind.

Of course not. But that's not about logic, anymore. That's an empirical question (and, technically, an inductive one). Whether or not Geth actually try to kill anyone is totally up in the air. But we don't know that. What we do know is that the Reapers are killing everyone.

[Genera1Nemesis]

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

We would live a few more years, instead of dying in the worst kind of horrible pain as we're either melted alive or infected with nanomachines that turn us into monsters?

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

Then you're wrong, because the Space Baby's argument is a contradiction.

What is the contradiction?

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...
The Heretics chose to do so only at the behest of the StarKid's agent.  And they were defeated.  Both of which argue against the StarKid's philosophy and it personally.

The fact that the temptation for greater power would make them willingly go against organics supports the Starchld, does it not? Regardless of where that temptation comes from.

Hogwash!

If that fact that a particular form of life is capable of producing corruptible and/or dangerous individuals and/or factions makes it worthy of having its rise prevented at all costs, then ALL forms of sapient life need to be prevented from arising, not just synthetics. 

That argument works if organics=synthetics. Obviously to the Reapers, that is not the case. The Reapers, in their own twisted way, actually prefer organics to synthetics. Sovereign hated the Geth, as did Harbinger. Harbinger loves organics though.

It could be because the Reapers themselves are organics, and thus are predjudiced against AI.

That's part of the problem though (at least it is for me).  I say that organics do equal synthetics!  At least insofar as deserving the respect, recognition, and rights endowed upon all sapient beings.

The StarKid might (in the most perverse possible way) "favor" organics over synthetics, but it doesn't respect either them.