597 réponses à ce sujet

[Genera1Nemesis]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

We would live a few more years, instead of dying in the worst kind of horrible pain as we're either melted alive or infected with nanomachines that turn us into monsters?

The Reapers only take so long because they are meticulously trying to preserve the best DNA from each species. An advanced AI wouldn't do this so would likely just nuke the hell out of everything.

[OtaconUCF]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...
The Heretics chose to do so only at the behest of the StarKid's agent.  And they were defeated.  Both of which argue against the StarKid's philosophy and it personally.

The fact that the temptation for greater power would make them willingly go against organics supports the Starchld, does it not? Regardless of where that temptation comes from.

Hogwash!

If that fact that a particular form of life is capable of producing corruptible and/or dangerous individuals and/or factions makes it worthy of having its rise prevented at all costs, then ALL forms of sapient life need to be prevented from arising, not just synthetics. 

But synthetics advance faster than organics. EDI was constantly upgrading. A determined AI can hack anything; I'm sure if the Geth heretics saw a potential for advancement by killing organics they would likely continue this course to continue advancing. Eventually they would advance so fast that we can't stop them. They may eventually come to the conclusion that organics will always try to kill them, so the best couse is to pre-emptively kill every organic that evolve into sentience.

The Geth's original goal after the Morning War though was to unite in a single physical structure in piece. The Heretics originally only take Sovereign's offer in exchange for technology to help in the construction of that construct. 
The opportunity to advance for the heretics didn't expessly come just from going out and randomly killing organics, they were gifts granted by Sovereign in exchange for doing so. Without the incentive from the Reapers they would never have had a reason or compulsion to leave their space, and as Legion states it, "Organics fear us. We wish to understand, not incite." The geth at large had no bone to pick or vendetta against organics, they just wanted to be left alone.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

Then you're wrong, because the Space Baby's argument is a contradiction.

What is the contradiction?

The contradiction is that all AI will inevitably seek out and destroy *ALL TRACES* of organic life.  Yet, the Reapers, an AI, do not do this.  And haven't done this.  For "eons."  It defies their own argument.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

Then you're wrong, because the Space Baby's argument is a contradiction.

What is the contradiction?

The contradiction is that all AI will inevitably seek out and destroy *ALL TRACES* of organic life.  Yet, the Reapers, an AI, do not do this.  And haven't done this.  For "eons."  It defies their own argument.

When did they ever say the Reapers were AI? They looked pretty organic to me...

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

When did they ever say the Reapers were AI? They looked pretty organic to me...

Its stated multiple times that they're synthetic.  Thats why the Geth revere them as gods.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

When did they ever say the Reapers were AI? They looked pretty organic to me...

Its stated multiple times that they're synthetic.  Thats why the Geth revere them as gods.

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

When did they ever say the Reapers were AI? They looked pretty organic to me...

Its stated multiple times that they're synthetic.  Thats why the Geth revere them as gods.

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

I won't say I'm 100% right on this, but I'm fairly, fairly certain they declare themselves Synthetic (the conversation on Virmire, I'm relatively sure, has these statements by Sovereign).  The use of DNA is in *making* the Reaper - that does not make the Reaper organic, merely the materials used to house it.

[OtaconUCF]

aristaea wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

There is no reason to believe that at the end of the game Catalyst would lie to you. C'mon, it was the big reveal. You really think Bioware just filled it with b.s.?

This is an extradiegetic argument; it relies on knowledge of what the storyteller's intentions are rather than being supported in the story itself.

From Shepard's point of view, there is no way to determine whether or not Star Child is lying, and no reason to believe that it is not, which is why the forced choice is unsatisfactory. If we were offered the chance to try to figure out if Star Child was telling the truth, that would factor into our decision at the end; we are not, and therefore Shepard, and the player, are railroaded into a choice whose legitimacy depends on authorial intent.

It is one of the ways in which the ending is flawed.

Ah, someone with whom I agree with but can express my thoughts better than I can.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

When did they ever say the Reapers were AI? They looked pretty organic to me...

Its stated multiple times that they're synthetic.  Thats why the Geth revere them as gods.

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

I won't say I'm 100% right on this, but I'm fairly, fairly certain they declare themselves Synthetic (the conversation on Virmire, I'm relatively sure, has these statements by Sovereign).  The use of DNA is in *making* the Reaper - that does not make the Reaper organic, merely the materials used to house it.

Okay, I'll run with that since it's been a looong time since I played ME1 and don't remember that part.  If they are AI then they have even more to fear from synthetics, because as I've said before; what if a synthetic found a way to hack them anc gain control?

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...


Saying someone's argument is true simply because they believe it is a horrible idea.

Saying someone's argument ISN'T true simply because you don't believe it is also a horrible idea.

Beast919 wrote...
And we don't *know* that its the big reveal for the game.  This could be indoc, this could be a horribly botched editing job, this could be just plain BAD, the point is, assuming godchild speaks truth is a terrible notion.  Especially when every single event we've seen thus far conflicts with it.

See, here what you are doing is simply refusing to believe Starchild because you do not like what he says.

Beast919 wrote...

And again, even going back to *assuming* this cycle has revealed itself over time, and the Reapers *are* our salvation through destruction, their methods are horrifically absurd and inefficient for being such highly-evolved beings.  Lying in wait for 1000 years after a failed Rachni invasion is absurd.  So much can happen in 1000 years.  And if they do not need to be pre-emptive, they simply do not need to be pre-emptive - it completely negates the need for a galactic purge before anything has gone wrong.

Their methods aren't that inefficient if they've been successful for billions of years, and no-one has even come close to stopping them until Shepard. Like I said, Sovereign was constantly monitoring the situation.

Beast919 wrote...
You must not be thinking clearly about our own history.  Territorial combat is a very common theme in human history, and is often incredibly violent with little reason behind it.  Outsiders were viewed as sub-human, devils, barbarians, etc.  People rationilized the on-sight murder of cultures for centuries.  The Geth are no different.  They were taken advantage of, and did the only logical thing they could come up with at the time - defended their homes and selves.  They never struck out, but they were not going to be taken advantage of again.

No, the fact that they refused to have even peace talks only reinforces the idea that synthetics and organics can't co-exist in peace. 300 years of zero contact, except for murderous protection of borders?

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

No, my argument is that if we assume Starchild is right about the cycle repeating itself, the rest of what they're doing is logical. Not right, but logical.

Then you're wrong, because the Space Baby's argument is a contradiction.

What is the contradiction?

The contradiction is that all AI will inevitably seek out and destroy *ALL TRACES* of organic life.  Yet, the Reapers, an AI, do not do this.  And haven't done this.  For "eons."  It defies their own argument.

The Reapers are not AI. They are a collective consciouss composed of billions of organic minds. Do not compare them to things like the Geth.

There is no contradiction here.

EDIT: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par 111987, 16 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Okay, I'll run with that since it's been a looong time since I played ME1 and don't remember that part.  If they are AI then they have even more to fear from synthetics, because as I've said before; what if a synthetic found a way to hack them anc gain control?

Their fear would be a valid argument for why *they* want to destroy Synthetics.  It has nothing to do with the complete black hole of logic that is "we protect you by eating you."  If they truly wanted to protect us, why not be allies?  Why hide?  Why not express their dominance across the 50k years instead of being hit&run civilization eaters? 

The only argument to support the "we protect you by eating you" is assuming the starchild is telling the truth at the end.

Everything else, there's simply no evidence to support *definitively* one way or the other, but it points towards Reapers being Space Zombies out for Galaxy Brains. 

[forgottenlord]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

I don't buy the evolution argument.  The geth, over 300 years, didn't advance beyond where the general society was - even though, collectively, they are still AI.  Their hacking abilities aren't shown to be notably more advanced than the best organics.  The quarians were clearly able to develop counter-measures that were on-par with their creation.

EDI, too (I noticed you mentioned her elsewhere) doesn't advance very far.  Her modified her core programming frequently, but it wasn't really advancement so much as refining her priorities based upon the perspectives given her.  Her only major advancement is when she was unshackled.  Beyond that, her abilities seem far more about the advancements given by the Reapers than her own evolution.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Okay, I'll run with that since it's been a looong time since I played ME1 and don't remember that part.  If they are AI then they have even more to fear from synthetics, because as I've said before; what if a synthetic found a way to hack them anc gain control?

Their fear would be a valid argument for why *they* want to destroy Synthetics.  It has nothing to do with the complete black hole of logic that is "we protect you by eating you."  If they truly wanted to protect us, why not be allies?  Why hide?  Why not express their dominance across the 50k years instead of being hit&run civilization eaters? 

The only argument to support the "we protect you by eating you" is assuming the starchild is telling the truth at the end.

Everything else, there's simply no evidence to support *definitively* one way or the other, but it points towards Reapers being Space Zombies out for Galaxy Brains. 

But that's just it. Organics had a long history of myth regarding the Reapers. If they stuck around to help out people might start thinking they were deities. Lesser organics certainly would. They built the Citadel and the relays. They are the Creators. We would see ourseives as the created. Cycle continues....

[111987]

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

I don't buy the evolution argument.  The geth, over 300 years, didn't advance beyond where the general society was - even though, collectively, they are still AI.  Their hacking abilities aren't shown to be notably more advanced than the best organics.  The quarians were clearly able to develop counter-measures that were on-par with their creation.

EDI, too (I noticed you mentioned her elsewhere) doesn't advance very far.  Her modified her core programming frequently, but it wasn't really advancement so much as refining her priorities based upon the perspectives given her.  Her only major advancement is when she was unshackled.  Beyond that, her abilities seem far more about the advancements given by the Reapers than her own evolution.

Remember that the Geth were creating the equivalent of a Reaper during those 300 years, so they were advancing in. Also, all the new combat forms emerged after the rebellions (such as Pyros, Primes, etc...).

[Genera1Nemesis]

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

I don't buy the evolution argument.  The geth, over 300 years, didn't advance beyond where the general society was - even though, collectively, they are still AI.  Their hacking abilities aren't shown to be notably more advanced than the best organics.  The quarians were clearly able to develop counter-measures that were on-par with their creation.

EDI, too (I noticed you mentioned her elsewhere) doesn't advance very far.  Her modified her core programming frequently, but it wasn't really advancement so much as refining her priorities based upon the perspectives given her.  Her only major advancement is when she was unshackled.  Beyond that, her abilities seem far more about the advancements given by the Reapers than her own evolution.

But therein lies the conundrum. Did the reapers arrive because the Geth or EDI chose that path? No. The came because technologically we were now at the apex of advancing AI, which is why there were laws in place against it. Cerbersu did it anyway. All it takes is one to advance too fast;Reapers couldn't take that chance.

[Auralius Carolus]

Personal take on this matter:

The Reapers are self-righteous and view themselves on such a high plain as to be Gods. The uniformity and apparent non-evolutionary nature of their wills suggests that they are something of a shackled AI that are incapable of thinking beyond a certain point, not unlike those under their indoctrination. Because of this thought pattern, they desire to ASCEND other worthy species to thier rank.

If they truly wished to allow biological beings to live freely, they would have not encouraged their rapid advancement by intentionally leaving traces of both their own and the previous civilizations tech behind. Their intentions are not to preserve and promote true organic life, but to control it in a matter which satisfies their own beliefs. This isn't about logic to them, but perspective. Self-determination, individuality, national or special sovereignty- it does not matter. They will "save" you from yourself, whether you like it or not.

There are more than a few parallels here with certain Communist countries social processing: Revolution, purge, re-education, social planning with emphasis on the collective and "saving" capitalists from what is viewed as a self-destructive cycle.

It is the Citadel's willingness to break this ancient cycle that is so bizarre.

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 16 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

In the last two cycles, organics triumphed over synthetics and organics and synthetics managed to find accomodation respectively.  Neither of which fits the StarKid's mold.

Starchild never said that wasn't possible. He just said that eventually the Created will always turn on the Creators. We saw this in the Prothean's time, with the Heretic Geth, the Luna VI and Overlord AI.

As organics advance, so do their AI's. Eventually, an AI will be created that dooms organics. That's the starchild's argument. We haven't seen this 'advanced' AI because the Reapers invade before it happens.

The Prothean's synthetic adversaries and the Heretics were both defeated, the Luna VI became friendly (very friendly to Joker), and Overlord was not an AI. 

In fact the only "civilization destroying AI" we do see is the StarKid itself.  For the foreseeable future, the problem of evil machines destroying organic life ends with its destruction.

The Reapers invade before the organic races become advanced enough to develop a truly threatening AI. Waiting until after it happened would defeat the purpose of the cycle.

The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...


Saying someone's argument ISN'T true simply because you don't believe it is also a horrible idea.

I'm not saying it isn't true.  I'm saying I have absolutely NO REASON to believe it.  At all.  Whatsoever.  And the desire to survive (i.e. not get eaten by Reapers) is a far more compelling argument.  Yet Shepard just believes it when the starchild says it.  It is completely against basic human instinct.  

See, here what you are doing is simply refusing to believe Starchild because you do not like what he says.

I'm refusing to believe Starchild because I'd rather live than be told a story by a phantom child.  Provide some proof that I'm endangering the survival of all organic life as we know it, *SOME* proof, and maybe, just maybe I would be noble and let myself be eaten.  Otherwise I'm blowing them up at all costs.

Their methods aren't that inefficient if they've been successful for billions of years, and no-one has even come close to stopping them until Shepard. Like I said, Sovereign was constantly monitoring the situation.

No one is doubting their ability to eat organics.  And so far thats all they've proven they can do.

What I'm doubting is their ability/desire to *protect* organics from a Synthetic threat.  

Here's an If-then chain of events that may help you understand.

If Sovereign is able to wait and see a threat approaching before calling the reapers, then there is no need to systematically destroy organic life *BEFORE* that threat appears.

If Sovereign is unable to see a threat and react in time, then there is a need to systematically destroy organic life *BEFORE* the threat appears.

If Sovereign is unable to see a threat and react in time, then failing to call the systematic destruction of the organic races BY A WINDOW OF OVER 1000 YEARS displays incredible inefficiency when the entirety of organic life as we know it as at stake.

If you follow that line of thought to its conclusion, then you will see the Reapers are either lying about wanting to protect organics, or are horribly inefficient at the job.  There is no middle ground.  If a threat had appeared in that 1000 year window, Sovereign, and by extension, the entire Reaper race, would have failed organics and the damage would have been irreverseible.

No, the fact that they refused to have even peace talks only reinforces the idea that synthetics and organics can't co-exist in peace. 300 years of zero contact, except for murderous protection of borders?

The Geth had very solid reason to expect irrational behavoir from organics following the initital war.  Asking to be left alone, and proving your point once (a display of force to show you are not kidding) is a logical pre-cursor to cutting all contact off with Organics.  If they pressed the issue, it was their own illogical thought process.  The Geth were waiting until they had made advancements that could ensure their safety.  That is not irrational, that is not warlike, that is protection of their very being.

[Genera1Nemesis]

I hear a humming sound....grandma, is that you?

[111987]

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Okay, I'll run with that since it's been a looong time since I played ME1 and don't remember that part.  If they are AI then they have even more to fear from synthetics, because as I've said before; what if a synthetic found a way to hack them anc gain control?

Their fear would be a valid argument for why *they* want to destroy Synthetics.  It has nothing to do with the complete black hole of logic that is "we protect you by eating you."  If they truly wanted to protect us, why not be allies?  Why hide?  Why not express their dominance across the 50k years instead of being hit&run civilization eaters? 

The only argument to support the "we protect you by eating you" is assuming the starchild is telling the truth at the end.

Everything else, there's simply no evidence to support *definitively* one way or the other, but it points towards Reapers being Space Zombies out for Galaxy Brains. 

But that's just it. Organics had a long history of myth regarding the Reapers. If they stuck around to help out people might start thinking they were deities. Lesser organics certainly would. They built the Citadel and the relays. They are the Creators. We would see ourseives as the created. Cycle continues....

And if organics got out of line, they would purge our existence.  How is that any worse than doing it for the hell of it every 50k years.  The only possible motivation that is driving any of this is *FEAR* on the reapers part, not a sense of protection of organics.  It logically does not fit.

[nitefyre410]

Razorsteel wrote...

Hell, Bioware/EA should have settled for Galactus. That would have been a better choice.

 


Galactus , the Phoenix  Force, the Living Tribunal are  Space Magic  and everything about him makes more sense than  The Catalyst hell I can explain it.

Galactus- is the universal  emboident of Equity - he eats living nuturing planets  that serve as  eggs for  beings  known as the Celestials.  

there... Galactus in nut shell.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 16 mars 2012 - 04:58 .

[MechBev01]

One of the problems I have with the Catalyst is that he claims to be preserving all the advance races in reaper form, however in ME2 we learn that the protheans were turned into the collectors because they were unsuitable for turning into a reaper. Have I got that wrong? If not, doesn't this show the Catalyst is lying?

[savionen]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Well, that's sort of the problem. It's like....

God-Kid: Trust me bro, I'm totally not a Reaper wanting to kill you.
Shepard: Seems legit.