597 réponses à ce sujet

[Genera1Nemesis]

MechBev01 wrote...

One of the problems I have with the Catalyst is that he claims to be preserving all the advance races in reaper form, however in ME2 we learn that the protheans were turned into the collectors because they were unsuitable for turning into a reaper. Have I got that wrong? If not, doesn't this show the Catalyst is lying?

They only harvest the best DNA from a species. Anyone that doesn't meet their standards is turned into a Husk, or Collector in the Protheans case.

[Arik7]

savionen wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Well, that's sort of the problem. It's like....

God-Kid: Trust me bro, I'm totally not a Reaper wanting to kill you.
Shepard: Seems legit.

The God child is the leader of the Reapers.  Of course he should be trusted.

[Auralius Carolus]

MechBev01 wrote...

One of the problems I have with the Catalyst is that he claims to be preserving all the advance races in reaper form, however in ME2 we learn that the protheans were turned into the collectors because they were unsuitable for turning into a reaper. Have I got that wrong? If not, doesn't this show the Catalyst is lying?

If memory serves, something about their genetic composition wasn't suitable, so they were made to be "useful".

[OtaconUCF]

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Geth heretics made the choice to kill in the name of advancement. The fact that Sovereign made them the offer was possibly just a test of the Geth and some chose to advance themselves no matter the cost; thus; proving the threat was real.

True, but they still did it through a motivation.  In that sense, they're no different then their organic counterparts.  Do you doom organics because they're capable of killing for advancement?

but they advance at a much faster rate. So they could very likely wipe us out after a relatively short time period. What if after a few years they were able to hack reapers?

I don't buy the evolution argument.  The geth, over 300 years, didn't advance beyond where the general society was - even though, collectively, they are still AI.  Their hacking abilities aren't shown to be notably more advanced than the best organics.  The quarians were clearly able to develop counter-measures that were on-par with their creation.

EDI, too (I noticed you mentioned her elsewhere) doesn't advance very far.  Her modified her core programming frequently, but it wasn't really advancement so much as refining her priorities based upon the perspectives given her.  Her only major advancement is when she was unshackled.  Beyond that, her abilities seem far more about the advancements given by the Reapers than her own evolution.

Remember that the Geth were creating the equivalent of a Reaper during those 300 years, so they were advancing in. Also, all the new combat forms emerged after the rebellions (such as Pyros, Primes, etc...).

According to the War Room screen about Geth infantry, every Geth platform is capable of combat in whatever capacity as a means, again, of self defense. In the video you linked above Legion even specifically says the Geth have no ill will towards organics.

That said on the video though, huh, I missed that coversation entirely. They don't really seem to do much to drive that point home going forward from there though do they... Though it does clarify their preference for organics. You'd think they'd put that kind of information somewhere more obvious than an easily missed, post end of game conversation you might not be able to have, because the final confrontation in ME2 sure doesn't spell it out clearly other than the human genetic material being used.

Gah, that almost makes the Reapers even more horrifying, honestly. I think I was more comfortable with them just being AI...

At the same time it also makes the case that they're somewhat biased against AI and synthetics. You say not to compare Reapers to the geth, but in all honesty their true nature makes them out to be very similar. A gestalt conciousness composed of innumerable organic minds in a single mechanical body vs a gestalt conciousness composed of artificial minds in numerous networked mechanical bodies.

[Xaijin]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

circle stuff

umm yeah except they've literally reset the cycle over again, so that someone inevitably builds the Reapers or an equivalent again. Worst. Ending. Ever.

Modifié par Xaijin, 16 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[forgottenlord]

111987 wrote...

Remember that the Geth were creating the equivalent of a Reaper during those 300 years, so they were advancing in. Also, all the new combat forms emerged after the rebellions (such as Pyros, Primes, etc...).

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But therein lies the conundrum. Did the reapers arrive because the Geth
or EDI chose that path? No. The came  because technologically we were now
at the apex of advancing AI, which is why there were laws in place
against  it. Cerbersu did it anyway. All it takes is one to advance too
fast;Reapers couldn't take that chance.

Point conceded.

[111987]

[quote]Beast919 wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

Saying someone's argument ISN'T true simply because you don't believe it is also a horrible idea.

I'm not saying it isn't true.  I'm saying I have absolutely NO REASON to believe it.  At all.  Whatsoever.  And the desire to survive (i.e. not get eaten by Reapers) is a far more compelling argument.  Yet Shepard just believes it when the starchild says it.  It is completely against basic human instinct.  [/quote]

You believe it because it is the big reveal of the game. Unless and until there is an ending DLC, we have to assume what Starchild says is the truth. If you just deny it, this discussion can't go any further. Think about it. You could deny anything like that if you wanted. I could deny that the Human Reaper was really a Reaper made up of humans. In ME1 I could say "No Vigil, Sovereign isn't a Reaper! I refuse to believe it!"


[quote]Beast919 wrote...

I'm refusing to believe Starchild because I'd rather live than be told a story by a phantom child.  Provide some proof that I'm endangering the survival of all organic life as we know it, *SOME* proof, and maybe, just maybe I would be noble and let myself be eaten.  Otherwise I'm blowing them up at all costs.[/quote]

If you don't believe Starchild, your only other option is to fight the Reapers conventionally. Which results in everyone dying and the cycle continuing. Remember, Starchild isn't telling you to use the Crucible; he knows Shepard is going to use it regardless. All he does is tell you the different things it can do.

[quote]Beast919 wrote...

If you follow that line of thought to its conclusion, then you will see the Reapers are either [/b][/i]lying about wanting to protect organics, or are horribly inefficient at the job.  There is no middle ground.  If a threat had appeared in that 1000 year window, Sovereign, and by extension, the entire Reaper race, would have failed organics and the damage would have been irreverseible.[/quote]

As Sovereign was constantly scanning the galaxy, he would know when a threat emerged. He would then accelerate his plans. Call in the Collectors or something to replace the Geth.

[AresXX7]

 I will say this; I agree with others - who wish there would have been a option to argue/defy the catalyst's 'logic'.
The whole acceptance of what the starchild says, taken at face value, goes against what Shepard stands for IMO.
Just because it has existed for 37 million years +, only means no one has successfully defied it before, not that it has an inherent logic that surpasses all others. I would also say, to those who presume the Geth will eventually follow suit, that this would serve as a basis for preserving peace - on both sides.

As for the crucible argument - whether it was the only viable solution, or not, I would have liked to see an outcome akin to what OtaconUCF said. A choice where Shepard, in a last act of defiance, causes an overload that disrupts/severes, the catalyst's connection to the Reapers, or destroys it outright. This would, in turn, cause the Reapers to enter a state of vulnerbility - much like Sovereign did when robo-Saren was destroyed. In regards to the aftermath; it would depend on what your EMS total was on who lived/died. (as well as having this option to begin with)
As for Shepard's fate; it would also depend on how high the EMS rating is (much like the taking a breath under rubble scene), on whether, or not, someone (such as Cortez) would show up to provide Shep with an escape off that part of the Citadel/crucible before it blew up. (leaving the rest of the citadel intact-as well as the relays)

The latter part was just something that popped inside my head, after reading what OctaconUCF posted earlier.

Sorry if I'm posting old news, the thread was moving too fast to keep up with

[Zofiya]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Actually, what we find out is that they are Frankensteinian amalgamations of the genetic material/biological matter of every species they've ever harvested.

I will go out on a limb here and say that is an atrocious fate, not something to which we should aspire.

Everything that made those species alive is now gone; everything that made each individual unique and, in fact, individual, is gone, and it is impossible to imagine that Reapers are really some sort of collective consciousness in which every harvested "mind" has a say -- even if we accept that the harvesting process somehow preserves organic consciousness in a synthetic form, how would that decision-making process work? Do they all get a vote? Do they all vote that being part of a Reaper is great, and everyone should be forced to do it, because it is so great?

Maybe they do. Maybe after you are "ascended" into the Reaper, indoctrination continues to work on you until you come to believe what Star Child wants you to believe, and therefore all minds in a Reaper collective think the same way.

We know that Reapers are subject to control: Star Child gives them orders, and Shepard can choose to control them; from this we can deduce that they have no free will, and no ability to self-determinate, which means that all those species that they "preserved" are now functionally slaves and will never be free, or have the hope of freedom.

Which is what Shepard says to the Catalyst, who dismisses this concern out of hand, but fails to address whether or not it is true for already-harvested species.

Reapers are not the incarnation or preservation of organic life; they are an abomination and perversion of life. To become a Reaper is to sacrifice that which we should value most highly: our capacity for independent thought. They are horrific, and the thing that created them is insane and monstrous.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Keep in mind the Reapers never left anything behind resembling even in the slightest a robot, or synthetic. They could have used robots, but they chose keepers instead who have but one single purpose; make sure the cycle continues.

[Genera1Nemesis]

aristaea wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Actually, what we find out is that they are Frankensteinian amalgamations of the genetic material/biological matter of every species they've ever harvested.

I will go out on a limb here and say that is an atrocious fate, not something to which we should aspire.

Everything that made those species alive is now gone; everything that made each individual unique and, in fact, individual, is gone, and it is impossible to imagine that Reapers are really some sort of collective consciousness in which every harvested "mind" has a say -- even if we accept that the harvesting process somehow preserves organic consciousness in a synthetic form, how would that decision-making process work? Do they all get a vote? Do they all vote that being part of a Reaper is great, and everyone should be forced to do it, because it is so great?

Maybe they do. Maybe after you are "ascended" into the Reaper, indoctrination continues to work on you until you come to believe what Star Child wants you to believe, and therefore all minds in a Reaper collective think the same way.

We know that Reapers are subject to control: Star Child gives them orders, and Shepard can choose to control them; from this we can deduce that they have no free will, and no ability to self-determinate, which means that all those species that they "preserved" are now functionally slaves and will never be free, or have the hope of freedom.

Which is what Shepard says to the Catalyst, who dismisses this concern out of hand, but fails to address whether or not it is true for already-harvested species.

Reapers are not the incarnation or preservation of organic life; they are an abomination and perversion of life. To become a Reaper is to sacrifice that which we should value most highly: our capacity for independent thought. They are horrific, and the thing that created them is insane and monstrous.

I never said I agreed with their methods; I only said that I saw the logic of what their purpose was.

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Of course the StarKid has it's reason for creating it's Reapers!  It's just that it's reasons are total bunk. 

"Living togther peacefully" is a tricky standard to hold anyone to, let alone entire catagories of sapient life.  I mean, organics don't live peacefully with organics.  Nor do synthetics live together peacefully with synthetics.  The only truely obvious example of AI's being any sort existential or inherrent threat to organic life (and synthetic life that isn't them) is the StarKid and it's Reapers themselves. 

That said, all forms of life are clearly capable of living peacefully both with themselves and other types of intelligence.  In my book, that alone earns them the right to try.

Modifié par General User, 16 mars 2012 - 04:50 .

[111987]

forgottenlord wrote...

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Legion says the closest analogue is a Dyson sphere, but it isn't a dyson sphere. He also says they don't know what their future will bring after that happens. That's kind of ominous.

Shepard says, in the renegade dialogue, that what the Geth are doing sounds exactly like building a Reaper, and Legion doesn't disagree, just says they mean no ill will towards organics. Yet he also says they don't know what the future will bring after they all join together.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Keep in mind the Reapers never left anything behind resembling even in the slightest a robot, or synthetic. They could have used robots, but they chose keepers instead who have but one single purpose; make sure the cycle continues.

Actually no, that's wrong. Their purpose is to ensure that when the cycle repeats itself, the Reapers can take control of their home base and thus end the cycle. My bad.

[Marixus99.9]

Random thoughts: 

Perhaps a comparison would be humans and other mammals on the Earth in modern times. Our technology and civilization has evolved to the point where we can wipe out the existance any other animal of similar or larger size if we desire too regardless on whether or not its beneficial. There are even efforts made by us to prevent this from happening on accident.  

So the Starchild's logic is that AI can eventually improve itself to the point where it can treat organic intelligent life in a similar manner. My problem with this is that this is based entirely what could happen rather then what will happen. Eternity is a long time and yes eventually there could be synthetics that get to that point .. However what's to say they wont be destroyed as well? There is no true immortality, everything that has a beginning can have an end. The deaths of Reapers and Geth so far prove this. 

The only scenario I see this fear has merit is if the synthetics have a desire to harvest all resources in the galaxy. Absorb every planet and piece of matter there is for whatever reason the synthetics desire to use them for.  This would prevent any life from developing. However the method the Reapers use to prevent this scenario pretty much gives up on intelligent life. Its like a young man commiting suicide to avoid death at old age. 

Even if the Reapers prophecy is right, they're keeping organic life around for the sake of having organic life around. This is similar to stripping the personal lives of individuals of any meaning and telling them their only reason for existence is to procreate future generations that will in return do the same only for the same reason.

Examples might be over the top, but that's just how I see the Reaper's logic. Not judging the game as a whole with that. 

Also anything we think of, including the devs, is just speculation until we actually create an aritifical intelligence that is self aware in reality. Should that day come I mean, heck we might destroy ourselves with a nuclear apocalypse one day. 

/end Random thoughts.

[LombaxWarrior]

Ok quick question why didn't the catalyst just open to dark space when sovereign failed why go through all that b.s if the catalyst is all freaking knowing with its space magic b.s after seeing the ending I just wished that harbinger just freaking blew up Shepard so I didn't have to see that illconcived ending bioware stuck a knife in the back of the players

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Of course the StarKid has it's reason for creating it's Reapers!  It's just that it's reasons are total bunk. 

"Living togther peacefully" is a tricky standard to hold anyone to, let alone entire catagories of sapient life.  I mean, organics gon't live peacefully with organics.  Nor do synthetics live together peacefully with synthetics.  The only truely obvious example of AI's being any sort existential or inherrent threat to organic life (and synthetic life that isn't them) is the StarKid and it's Reapers themselves. 

That said, all forms of life are clearly capable of living peacefully both with themselves and other types of intelligence.  In my book, that alone earns them the right to try.

You're making a moral argument here. An argument I agree with. But from the Reaper perspective, what they are doing is logical. That's all I'm saying. But I realize this discussion isn't going anywhere, so I'm willing to drop it.

[Genera1Nemesis]

LombaxWarrior wrote...

Ok quick question why didn't the catalyst just open to dark space when sovereign failed why go through all that b.s if the catalyst is all freaking knowing with its space magic b.s after seeing the ending I just wished that harbinger just freaking blew up Shepard so I didn't have to see that illconcived ending bioware stuck a knife in the back of the players

I thought that Catalyst required Crucible and the Citadel to be combined because only then was it needed to activate and find another solution. The Crucible was the failsafe; because if organics could do those two things; keep control of citadel and build Crucible; then it was a possibility that the Reapers could lose, thus; not preserve organic life.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...

What is the contradiction?

I already wrote it for you. To quote me:

In Exile wrote...

Insofar as the Reapers are AI/synethic, it is necessarily true that not all AI/synthetics will inevitably kill all organics.

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Of course the StarKid has it's reason for creating it's Reapers!  It's just that it's reasons are total bunk. 

"Living togther peacefully" is a tricky standard to hold anyone to, let alone entire catagories of sapient life.  I mean, organics gon't live peacefully with organics.  Nor do synthetics live together peacefully with synthetics.  The only truely obvious example of AI's being any sort existential or inherrent threat to organic life (and synthetic life that isn't them) is the StarKid and it's Reapers themselves. 

That said, all forms of life are clearly capable of living peacefully both with themselves and other types of intelligence.  In my book, that alone earns them the right to try.

You're making a moral argument here. An argument I agree with. But from the Reaper perspective, what they are doing is logical. That's all I'm saying. But I realize this discussion isn't going anywhere, so I'm willing to drop it.

Ok then.  The StarKid's philosophy is illogical because the inherrent and existential threat that it claims synthetic life represents to organic life simply does not exist.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

You believe it because it is the big reveal of the game. Unless and until there is an ending DLC, we have to assume what Starchild says is the truth. If you just deny it, this discussion can't go any further. Think about it. You could deny anything like that if you wanted. I could deny that the Human Reaper was really a Reaper made up of humans. In ME1 I could say "No Vigil, Sovereign isn't a Reaper! I refuse to believe it!"

What part are you not understanding about what I'm saying.  I am not debating whether or not starchild *ends up* as telling the truth as the developers wanted to portray it.  I am debating that what starchild is saying, is inherantly, nonsensical.  Not only that, but if they truly intended to portray Shepard ending his career as a lackey for a godchild, they instantly lose all respect for creativity and my interest dies immediately.  I'll hold out hope there's more coming.  if there isn't, there's no doubt in my mind, its bad, horrible, bad, bad, bad writing.

If you don't believe Starchild, your only other option is to fight the Reapers conventionally. Which results in everyone dying and the cycle continuing. Remember, Starchild isn't telling you to use the Crucible; he knows Shepard is going to use it regardless. All he does is tell you the different things it can do.

Again, wrong.  Shepard is going to try and find some way to use it.  First of all, the notion that he'd show up on the Citadel and all of a sudden know how to fire the anti-reaper weapon to save the galaxy is rediculous - There's no way he could have anticipated the god-child.  Second, you again HAVE NO PROOF that starchild is showing him ALL OPTIONS available to him under the power of the crucible.  

And even if your only option becomes fighting the reaper conventionally, Shepard would take that before he took the word of the godchild and picked a color out of a hat.  "We fight or we die."  We don't listen to phantom children.

As Sovereign was constantly scanning the galaxy, he would know when a threat emerged. He would then accelerate his plans. Call in the Collectors or something to replace the Geth.

Again, if Sovereign has the capability to detect a threat in time to deal with it, that conclusively proves that the concept of purging the entire galaxy of advanced life is unneccessary.  If he doesn't have that capability, he is bad at his job for failling to call in the strike for over 1000 years.  There is no other path.  He is either bad at his job (protecting organic interests), or that isn't his job.  One, or the other.  That's it.

[Genera1Nemesis]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

[The cycle has no purpose. 

Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI that will proceed to destroy that society.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the two will become productive partners.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will simply depart taking no further interest in the organic beings that created it (it being superadvanced and all and having better things to do at that point).  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and the organic and synthetic members will merge.  You know, achieve synthesis on their own terms.  Maybe a given organic society will develop a superadvanced AI and that AI will proceed to spend the next umpteen million years repeatedly wiping out civilizations it has no relation to. 

It's a big universe out there and, as they say, only Allah knows the future. 

There are a ton of possibilities. However, the Reapers obviously have some kind of evidence that superadvanced AI and organics won't live together peacefully. They wouldn't have arbitrarily created this cycle just for kicks. There has to be a reason, we just never learn what it is because Bioware cut it from the game...sigh...

Of course the StarKid has it's reason for creating it's Reapers!  It's just that it's reasons are total bunk. 

"Living togther peacefully" is a tricky standard to hold anyone to, let alone entire catagories of sapient life.  I mean, organics gon't live peacefully with organics.  Nor do synthetics live together peacefully with synthetics.  The only truely obvious example of AI's being any sort existential or inherrent threat to organic life (and synthetic life that isn't them) is the StarKid and it's Reapers themselves. 

That said, all forms of life are clearly capable of living peacefully both with themselves and other types of intelligence.  In my book, that alone earns them the right to try.

You're making a moral argument here. An argument I agree with. But from the Reaper perspective, what they are doing is logical. That's all I'm saying. But I realize this discussion isn't going anywhere, so I'm willing to drop it.

Ok then.  The StarKid's philosophy is illogical because the inherrent and existential threat that it claims synthetic life represents to organic life simply does not exist.

Yet. But it will. Cerberus was doing crazy stuff.

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
The Reapers only take so long because they are meticulously trying to preserve the best DNA from each species. An advanced AI wouldn't do this so would likely just nuke the hell out of everything.

The only difference between genocide today and genocide tomorrow is the extra day you get to live. From the POV of absolutely everyone the Reapers kill, what the hell is the difference between being killed by them or by some other ultra advanced AI?

Edit:

Ignoring the fact that we actually built the Crucible in the first place and won the damn war against them.

Modifié par In Exile, 16 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[forgottenlord]

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Legion says the closest analogue is a Dyson sphere, but it isn't a dyson sphere. He also says they don't know what their future will bring after that happens. That's kind of ominous.

Shepard says, in the renegade dialogue, that what the Geth are doing sounds exactly like building a Reaper, and Legion doesn't disagree, just says they mean no ill will towards organics. Yet he also says they don't know what the future will bring after they all join together.

*sighs*

He's referring to the concept of amalgamating the consciousness of an entire race into a single structure.  However, it is far from a Reaper beyond that.  It has no weapons, no propulsion, and no motivation or use as a weapon.  It was far more analagous to the server farm you ran into on that geth base.  And at no point did they indicate they had the technological capabilities of the Reapers.  Like I said - we could build a 2KM structure sitting around the sun that could house millions of different processors.  That doesn't make it a Reaper and certainly doesn't make it capable of having weapons like a Reaper.

EDIT: I must move on for the night.

Modifié par forgottenlord, 16 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[OtaconUCF]

aristaea wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Actually, what we find out is that they are Frankensteinian amalgamations of the genetic material/biological matter of every species they've ever harvested.

I will go out on a limb here and say that is an atrocious fate, not something to which we should aspire.

Everything that made those species alive is now gone; everything that made each individual unique and, in fact, individual, is gone, and it is impossible to imagine that Reapers are really some sort of collective consciousness in which every harvested "mind" has a say -- even if we accept that the harvesting process somehow preserves organic consciousness in a synthetic form, how would that decision-making process work? Do they all get a vote? Do they all vote that being part of a Reaper is great, and everyone should be forced to do it, because it is so great?

Maybe they do. Maybe after you are "ascended" into the Reaper, indoctrination continues to work on you until you come to believe what Star Child wants you to believe, and therefore all minds in a Reaper collective think the same way.

We know that Reapers are subject to control: Star Child gives them orders, and Shepard can choose to control them; from this we can deduce that they have no free will, and no ability to self-determinate, which means that all those species that they "preserved" are now functionally slaves and will never be free, or have the hope of freedom.

Which is what Shepard says to the Catalyst, who dismisses this concern out of hand, but fails to address whether or not it is true for already-harvested species.

Reapers are not the incarnation or preservation of organic life; they are an abomination and perversion of life. To become a Reaper is to sacrifice that which we should value most highly: our capacity for independent thought. They are horrific, and the thing that created them is insane and monstrous.

I'm not sure how I managed to get this far without making that connection. Yeah, I saw they were using human genetic material to make the reaper in ME2, that was obvious, but the implication that they're some sort of twisted gestalt conciousness? That aspect never occured to me and I somehow missed that coversation with Legion.

And everything you say about that type of existance is why I'm suddenly finding the Reapers much more horrifying than I did before when I was still operating under the assumption they were just machines. The Geth may be fine with that sort of existance but that's their nature. The Reapers are like an even more twisted End of Evangelion... Is it ever explicitly stated anywhere besides the conversation with Legion that that's what they are? I feel like that wasn't made clear, unless I missed every conversation that discusses that aspect of them. 

I'm more glad than ever that I choose destroy, I may still have killed the Geth but I atleast put however many billions/trillions of dead to rest.