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[Genera1Nemesis]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
The Reapers only take so long because they are meticulously trying to preserve the best DNA from each species. An advanced AI wouldn't do this so would likely just nuke the hell out of everything.

The only difference between genocide today and genocide tomorrow is the extra day you get to live. From the POV of absolutely everyone the Reapers kill, what the hell is the difference between being killed by them or by some other ultra advanced AI?

Edit:

Ignoring the fact that we actually built the Crucible in the first place and won the damn war against them.

I understand that, but what about the the POV of the ones Reapers were saving....like humans 50 000 years ago?

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Okay, fine. The Repears are organics. So then the Catalyst is wrong because the only immortal and eternal thing alive (that controls all of the actual AI in the galaxy) are the Reapers.

Look, basically these are the possibilities: (1a) Reapers are the most powerful thing ever and AI will never surpass them or (1b) AI will eventually exist that will surpass the Reapers.

If (1b) happens, then the whole project is meaningless and the Catalyst is commiting genocide for ****s and giggles.

If (1a), either (2a) the Reapers are AI and they don't kill all organic life, so Catalyst is wrong; or (2b) the Reapers aren't AI but some kind of synthetic (whatever the hell that means) and could just defeat any synethic ever, making the whole point of the genocide moronic; the Repears could always woop in and save the day.

[General User]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Yet. But it will. Cerberus was doing crazy stuff.

I meant in general.  But, even so, wouldn't that make Cerberus the threat?

[Genera1Nemesis]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Okay, fine. The Repears are organics. So then the Catalyst is wrong because the only immortal and eternal thing alive (that controls all of the actual AI in the galaxy) are the Reapers.

Look, basically these are the possibilities: (1a) Reapers are the most powerful thing ever and AI will never surpass them or (1b) AI will eventually exist that will surpass the Reapers.

If (1b) happens, then the whole project is meaningless and the Catalyst is commiting genocide for ****s and giggles.

If (1a), either (2a) the Reapers are AI and they don't kill all organic life, so Catalyst is wrong; or (2b) the Reapers aren't AI but some kind of synthetic (whatever the hell that means) and could just defeat any synethic ever, making the whole point of the genocide moronic; the Repears could always woop in and save the day.

Then we, as organics; would view them as saviors and might eventually worship them as creators. Cycle continues...

[Beast919]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
That's what they thought; but then we find out they're actually the living incarnations of every species they've ever harvested.

Okay, fine. The Repears are organics. So then the Catalyst is wrong because the only immortal and eternal thing alive (that controls all of the actual AI in the galaxy) are the Reapers.

Look, basically these are the possibilities: (1a) Reapers are the most powerful thing ever and AI will never surpass them or (1b) AI will eventually exist that will surpass the Reapers.

If (1b) happens, then the whole project is meaningless and the Catalyst is commiting genocide for ****s and giggles.

If (1a), either (2a) the Reapers are AI and they don't kill all organic life, so Catalyst is wrong; or (2b) the Reapers aren't AI but some kind of synthetic (whatever the hell that means) and could just defeat any synethic ever, making the whole point of the genocide moronic; the Repears could always woop in and save the day.

Herp di derp, someone else gets it. 

No matter how you play out the Reapers, their intentions, actions, and personal construction do not jive.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Then we, as organics; would view them as saviors and might eventually worship them as creators. Cycle continues...

Already dealt with this and you didn't respond.

If organics did at any point try & rise up against Reapers, guess what, they get eaten.  More Reapers.  

How is that any worse  than a systemtic, timed purge of the galaxy.

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I understand that, but what about the the POV of the ones Reapers were saving....like humans 50 000 years ago?

What about the billions of Protheans they killed to do it? What about that POV? Why are 1,000 or so humans (who were alive at the time) worth 40 billion Protheans or whatever? 

All the argument comes down to is that more organics get to live in the interrim. And all it takes is the most horrible kind of genocide to be inflicted repeatedly, all based on the assumption that somehow (1) in the intervening 50,000 years the organics would just kill themselves off through war; (2) synthetics will actually go out of their way and kill everything.

[Genera1Nemesis]

General User wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Yet. But it will. Cerberus was doing crazy stuff.

I meant in general.  But, even so, wouldn't that make Cerberus the threat?

But then in five years someone else tries, or maybe ten years. As I've said before, all it takes is one. There is always an 'Illusive Man" as it were, out there trying to empower himself.

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Then we, as organics; would view them as saviors and might eventually worship them as creators. Cycle continues...

Awesome. We worship them. They're the most advanced thing ever. They have all the power. They never kill us. Cycle broken. If they're not all powerful, we just go to (1b), i.e. AI kills everything anyway.

This whole argument is just such a conundrum of stupid it defies reasons the writers actually wanted to include this in game.

[111987]

forgottenlord wrote...

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Legion says the closest analogue is a Dyson sphere, but it isn't a dyson sphere. He also says they don't know what their future will bring after that happens. That's kind of ominous.

Shepard says, in the renegade dialogue, that what the Geth are doing sounds exactly like building a Reaper, and Legion doesn't disagree, just says they mean no ill will towards organics. Yet he also says they don't know what the future will bring after they all join together.

*sighs*

He's referring to the concept of amalgamating the consciousness of an entire race into a single structure.  However, it is far from a Reaper beyond that.  It has no weapons, no propulsion, and no motivation or use as a weapon.  It was far more analagous to the server farm you ran into on that geth base.  And at no point did they indicate they had the technological capabilities of the Reapers.  Like I said - we could build a 2KM structure sitting around the sun that could house millions of different processors.  That doesn't make it a Reaper and certainly doesn't make it capable of having weapons like a Reaper.

EDIT: I must move on for the night.

Seriously? You don't think the Geth would have any defenses for their megastructure?

Not the point anyways. The point is once they become unified, we have no idea what they'll decide from there. Unification might make them realize that this existence is amazing, and they should spread this blessing to organics, or something else equally as bad.

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But then in five years someone else tries, or maybe ten years. As I've said before, all it takes is one. There is always an 'Illusive Man" as it were, out there trying to empower himself.

And suddenly the Reapers save everyone again. Man! It's like an endless cycle of the Reapers constantly saving everyone from AI instead of comitting endless genocide.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...
Seriously? You don't think the Geth would have any defenses for their megastructure?

Not the point anyways. The point is once they become unified, we have no idea what they'll decide from there. Unification might make them realize that this existence is amazing, and they should spread this blessing to organics, or something else equally as bad.

Holy ****, yeah! That's horrible. If only there wasn't some kind of invincible synthetic squid-like dreadnaught fleet that already did that, because then thould be a real problem for your argument.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Legion says the closest analogue is a Dyson sphere, but it isn't a dyson sphere. He also says they don't know what their future will bring after that happens. That's kind of ominous.

Shepard says, in the renegade dialogue, that what the Geth are doing sounds exactly like building a Reaper, and Legion doesn't disagree, just says they mean no ill will towards organics. Yet he also says they don't know what the future will bring after they all join together.

*sighs*

He's referring to the concept of amalgamating the consciousness of an entire race into a single structure.  However, it is far from a Reaper beyond that.  It has no weapons, no propulsion, and no motivation or use as a weapon.  It was far more analagous to the server farm you ran into on that geth base.  And at no point did they indicate they had the technological capabilities of the Reapers.  Like I said - we could build a 2KM structure sitting around the sun that could house millions of different processors.  That doesn't make it a Reaper and certainly doesn't make it capable of having weapons like a Reaper.

EDIT: I must move on for the night.

Seriously? You don't think the Geth would have any defenses for their megastructure?

Not the point anyways. The point is once they become unified, we have no idea what they'll decide from there. Unification might make them realize that this existence is amazing, and they should spread this blessing to organics, or something else equally as bad.

lol and while blissfully making things up you've come up with yet another more reasonable explanation for what the Reapers do than what we were given.

P.s. Cerberus (AND THE PROTHEANS) were willing to subjugate all other species to their will - how is this better than Synthetics subjugating organics to their will?

[Genera1Nemesis]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But then in five years someone else tries, or maybe ten years. As I've said before, all it takes is one. There is always an 'Illusive Man" as it were, out there trying to empower himself.

And suddenly the Reapers save everyone again. Man! It's like an endless cycle of the Reapers constantly saving everyone from AI instead of comitting endless genocide.

I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

[Wowlock]

Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ? They already act like they own the galaxy and the rest is just their plaything for them to experiment on. And whatever they do within the cycle is goes against the nature.

Letting some non-developed species live won't justify the genocide of Billions of deaths and extermination of cultures / civilizations.

They basicly play God with the universe which makes their logic flawed since there is no other power to challenge them. They think whatever they do is the only solution and no other option is better. They are too wraped up about themselves to think about the galaxy.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

111987 wrote...

forgottenlord wrote...

Are you referring to the dyson sphere?  The solid metal structure that housed all the geth?  Which was supposed to be stationary and do pretty much nothing except give them a place to be together?  That's the only thing close and it isn't remotely close to being Reaper level technology - we could build that today if it weren't for the insane resource requirement.

Legion says the closest analogue is a Dyson sphere, but it isn't a dyson sphere. He also says they don't know what their future will bring after that happens. That's kind of ominous.

Shepard says, in the renegade dialogue, that what the Geth are doing sounds exactly like building a Reaper, and Legion doesn't disagree, just says they mean no ill will towards organics. Yet he also says they don't know what the future will bring after they all join together.

*sighs*

He's referring to the concept of amalgamating the consciousness of an entire race into a single structure.  However, it is far from a Reaper beyond that.  It has no weapons, no propulsion, and no motivation or use as a weapon.  It was far more analagous to the server farm you ran into on that geth base.  And at no point did they indicate they had the technological capabilities of the Reapers.  Like I said - we could build a 2KM structure sitting around the sun that could house millions of different processors.  That doesn't make it a Reaper and certainly doesn't make it capable of having weapons like a Reaper.

EDIT: I must move on for the night.

Seriously? You don't think the Geth would have any defenses for their megastructure?

Not the point anyways. The point is once they become unified, we have no idea what they'll decide from there. Unification might make them realize that this existence is amazing, and they should spread this blessing to organics, or something else equally as bad.

lol and while blissfully making things up you've come up with yet another more reasonable explanation for what the Reapers do than what we were given.

P.s. Cerberus (AND THE PROTHEANS) were willing to subjugate all other species to their will - how is this better than Synthetics subjugating organics to their will?

Catalyst never said he feared the subjugation of species by synthetics. He feared their total annihilation.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

Nothing rubs you as illogical about "I'm the be all end all super species that has protected organic life for billions of years by this one method, but uh, since you're here, how bout you choose one of these 3 pretty colors and decide the fate of all society, synthetic and organic.  In 3 ways that are so radically different they don't even possibly address the same issues."

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Catalyst never said he feared the subjugation of species by synthetics. He feared their total annihilation.

And its completely implausible that organic society would create world-busting weapons, or learn how to blow up Mass Relays and destroy ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEMS.

Yeah.  Its all about the evil robots who may one day wake up with a hankering for organic lifeblood.  That's the real threat.

[General User]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

General User wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Yet. But it will. Cerberus was doing crazy stuff.

I meant in general.  But, even so, wouldn't that make Cerberus the threat?

But then in five years someone else tries, or maybe ten years. As I've said before, all it takes is one. There is always an 'Illusive Man" as it were, out there trying to empower himself.

Aye.  Then the problem lies not without but within.

I get what you're saying, you fear that someone somewhere will eventually develop an AI of sufficient capability that it will be uncontrolable, and that said AI will (for whatever reason) become hostile, resulting in the extermination of the civilization that created it.  But the truth is there is no reason that has to happen.

I think it was BF Skinner who said:  "The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do."

Modifié par General User, 16 mars 2012 - 05:17 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

Nothing rubs you as illogical about "I'm the be all end all super species that has protected organic life for billions of years by this one method, but uh, since you're here, how bout you choose one of these 3 pretty colors and decide the fate of all society, synthetic and organic.  In 3 ways that are so radically different they don't even possibly address the same issues."

Also never said I liked the execution of the end of the game; just said I saw the logic of AI wanting to destroy organic life; and thus; the need for a solution. I didn't say it was the BEST solution, lol.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Catalyst was wrong... Rogue VIs are the Mass Effect equivalent to nuclear holocaust. It can be prevented, averted, downgraded, and/or suppresed.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 mars 2012 - 05:18 .

[terdferguson123]

I think the entire point of that conversation with the Catalyst was that: up until that point in time Synthetics and Organics were never able to coexist. Shepard throughout his journeys proves that wrong with his ability to unite Geth and Quarian and AI (EDI) with Joker an organic (just a couple of examples) The logic of the Catalyst was not meant to be circular but it was meant to be wrong. The catalyst in many ways is like Saren, it's logic is very flawed and it believes that synthesis is the only way for the two to coexist for the long term. Shepard throughout his journeys proves this is false.

Also, to those who are saying that the Reapers being synthetic to save organics from synthetics is silly, you are wrong, The Reapers are Synthetic and Organic, they are a hybrid which is what the Catalyst believed to be the most logical way to live.

[Beast919]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

Nothing rubs you as illogical about "I'm the be all end all super species that has protected organic life for billions of years by this one method, but uh, since you're here, how bout you choose one of these 3 pretty colors and decide the fate of all society, synthetic and organic.  In 3 ways that are so radically different they don't even possibly address the same issues."

Also never said I liked the execution of the end of the game; just said I saw the logic of AI wanting to destroy organic life; and thus; the need for a solution. I didn't say it was the BEST solution, lol.

My point is it isn't a logical solution.  It dodges an incredible number of in-game facts/occurances, ignores a whoe list of other potential threats, ignores the completely awful concept of the Reapers not staying around (beyond a single vanguard) to make  sure their *INCREDIBLY * important job is done correctly, and even then, even then, addresses a threat which is completely unfounded.

So my toaster my one day get a brain and decide it wants to cook ME for breakfast.  Guess I better kill myself.

[Beast919]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think the entire point of that conversation with the Catalyst was that: up until that point in time Synthetics and Organics were never able to coexist. Shepard throughout his journeys proves that wrong with his ability to unite Geth and Quarian and AI (EDI) with Joker an organic (just a couple of examples) The logic of the Catalyst was not meant to be circular but it was meant to be wrong. The catalyst in many ways is like Saren, it's logic is very flawed and it believes that synthesis is the only way for the two to coexist for the long term. Shepard throughout his journeys proves this is false.

Also, to those who are saying that the Reapers being synthetic to save organics from synthetics is silly, you are wrong, The Reapers are Synthetic and Organic, they are a hybrid which is what the Catalyst believed to be the most logical way to live.

Wrong.  If thats what it believed, thats what it would have done.  It has the power of space magic remember. 

But I guess it just needed Shepard to flip the switch.  That makes sense.

Modifié par Beast919, 16 mars 2012 - 05:20 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think the entire point of that conversation with the Catalyst was that: up until that point in time Synthetics and Organics were never able to coexist. Shepard throughout his journeys proves that wrong with his ability to unite Geth and Quarian and AI (EDI) with Joker an organic (just a couple of examples) The logic of the Catalyst was not meant to be circular but it was meant to be wrong. The catalyst in many ways is like Saren, it's logic is very flawed and it believes that synthesis is the only way for the two to coexist for the long term. Shepard throughout his journeys proves this is false.

Also, to those who are saying that the Reapers being synthetic to save organics from synthetics is silly, you are wrong, The Reapers are Synthetic and Organic, they are a hybrid which is what the Catalyst believed to be the most logical way to live.

From what I can tell, the mind of the Reaper is synthetic (ie. they're synthetic), even if their body has fleshy tissue.