597 réponses à ce sujet

[Haristo]

You made Mr. Spock cry...

[Wowlock]

Wowlock wrote...

Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ? They already act like they own the galaxy and the rest is just their plaything for them to experiment on. And whatever they do within the cycle is goes against the nature.

Letting some non-developed species live won't justify the genocide of Billions of deaths and extermination of cultures / civilizations.

They basicly play God with the universe which makes their logic flawed since there is no other power to challenge them. They think whatever they do is the only solution and no other option is better. They are too wraped up about themselves to think about the galaxy.

Still looking for an answer here  

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

What part are you not understanding about what I'm saying.  I am not debating whether or not starchild *ends up* as telling the truth as the developers wanted to portray it.  I am debating that what starchild is saying, is inherantly, nonsensical.  Not only that, but if they truly intended to portray Shepard ending his career as a lackey for a godchild, they instantly lose all respect for creativity and my interest dies immediately.  I'll hold out hope there's more coming.  if there isn't, there's no doubt in my mind, its bad, horrible, bad, bad, bad writing.

Then keep your argument focused on that! Focus on why the Starchild is nonsensical, not why he's lying, like you've been arguing in the past.

Beast919 wrote...

Again, wrong.  Shepard is going to try and find some way to use it.  First of all, the notion that he'd show up on the Citadel and all of a sudden know how to fire the anti-reaper weapon to save the galaxy is rediculous - There's no way he could have anticipated the god-child.  Second, you again HAVE NO PROOF that starchild is showing him ALL OPTIONS available to him under the power of the crucible. 

No, not wrong. Shepard is going to activate it and hope for the best. Of course he didn't anticpate Starchild. What do you think I'm arguing here? Again, YOU have no proof the Starchild ISN'T offering all options. Why wouldn't he? He gave you the option to kill him for crying out loud.

Beast919 wrote...

And even if your only option becomes fighting the reaper conventionally, Shepard would take that before he took the word of the godchild and picked a color out of a hat.  "We fight or we die."  We don't listen to phantom children.

Then you're Shepard will doom the galaxy. Congrats!

As Sovereign was constantly scanning the galaxy, he would know when a threat emerged. He would then accelerate his plans. Call in the Collectors or something to replace the Geth.

Beast919 wrote...

Again, if Sovereign has the capability to detect a threat in time to deal with it, that conclusively proves that the concept of purging the entire galaxy of advanced life is unneccessary.  If he doesn't have that capability, he is bad at his job for failling to call in the strike for over 1000 years.  There is no other path.  He is either bad at his job (protecting organic interests), or that isn't his job.  One, or the other.  That's it.

No it doesn't! The point is to kill organic life BEFORE advanced AI develops. if by bad luck an advanced AI DID develop before the 50,000 years, Sovereign could just start the harvest sooner.

[Beast919]

Wowlock wrote...

Wowlock wrote...

Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ? They already act like they own the galaxy and the rest is just their plaything for them to experiment on. And whatever they do within the cycle is goes against the nature.

Letting some non-developed species live won't justify the genocide of Billions of deaths and extermination of cultures / civilizations.

They basicly play God with the universe which makes their logic flawed since there is no other power to challenge them. They think whatever they do is the only solution and no other option is better. They are too wraped up about themselves to think about the galaxy.

Still looking for an answer here  

There is no answer currently.  Other than its obvious the Reapers express condescension (rather than a nuturing instinct) via Sovereigns talks with Shepard.  Additionally the complete 180 of this attitude (from completely hating Shepard and treating him like a bug to be squashed to letting him decide the fate of the entire galaxy) is yet another massively rediculous plot hole.

[111987]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think the entire point of that conversation with the Catalyst was that: up until that point in time Synthetics and Organics were never able to coexist. Shepard throughout his journeys proves that wrong with his ability to unite Geth and Quarian and AI (EDI) with Joker an organic (just a couple of examples) The logic of the Catalyst was not meant to be circular but it was meant to be wrong. The catalyst in many ways is like Saren, it's logic is very flawed and it believes that synthesis is the only way for the two to coexist for the long term. Shepard throughout his journeys proves this is false.

Also, to those who are saying that the Reapers being synthetic to save organics from synthetics is silly, you are wrong, The Reapers are Synthetic and Organic, they are a hybrid which is what the Catalyst believed to be the most logical way to live.

From what I can tell, the mind of the Reaper is synthetic (ie. they're synthetic), even if their body has fleshy tissue.

Other way around...

[Aiyie]

Iztiak wrote...

It's still absolutely terrible logic.

He's killing off entire species, as a synthetic, so that later on they aren't "possibly" killed by synthetics they create. It's obtuse and idiotic.

Because synthetics aren't always hostile... Honestly, in all situations BUT the reapers, they were friendly. The geth never acted as aggressors, and forgave the quarians and helped them back on the homeland as absolutely soon as the quarians stopped attacking.

Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks.

Truly a terrible ending.

look at it from a different persepective.  EDI even says it herself at one point if you talk to her, about how if the geth had been imbued with individual desires they might not have rebelled... but, and here's the key im getting to, with such a limited sample size there's no way to be sure her theory is valid.

we have two examples to support the argument that synthetics and organics can coexist.  perhaps the creators of the reapers two examples showed the exact opposite? 

the conclusion that synthetics and organics can coexist comes from our perspective... if our perspective had been one where synthetics and organics could not coexist, then our conclusion would have been different.  the logic of the catalyst cannot be judged based on our observations alone... doing so automatically skews everything (kinda like how a taste survey of coke vs pepsi sponsored by pepsi is automatically suspect).

as for wiping out the synthetics threatening everyone... its about control.  the geth, as an example, are outside of the reaper's control (legion says as much in ME2).  hence, fighting them would be a far riskier venture than taking out the organics, whose limitations the reapers already know (remember Sovereign's ME1 speech).

Modifié par Aiyie, 16 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[111987]

Wowlock wrote...



Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ?

The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Modifié par 111987, 16 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

That's totally not logical. For it to be logical, conclusion has to follow from the premises. My point is that it doesn't. There is no scenario where advanced AI must kill all organic life unless you pressupose that it will, and tautologies (while technically valid) are not exactly "solid" reasoning.

[terdferguson123]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think the entire point of that conversation with the Catalyst was that: up until that point in time Synthetics and Organics were never able to coexist. Shepard throughout his journeys proves that wrong with his ability to unite Geth and Quarian and AI (EDI) with Joker an organic (just a couple of examples) The logic of the Catalyst was not meant to be circular but it was meant to be wrong. The catalyst in many ways is like Saren, it's logic is very flawed and it believes that synthesis is the only way for the two to coexist for the long term. Shepard throughout his journeys proves this is false.

Also, to those who are saying that the Reapers being synthetic to save organics from synthetics is silly, you are wrong, The Reapers are Synthetic and Organic, they are a hybrid which is what the Catalyst believed to be the most logical way to live.

From what I can tell, the mind of the Reaper is synthetic (ie. they're synthetic), even if their body has fleshy tissue.

Nonsense, it's clearly the other way around. The mind of the reaper is organic and the body is synthetic. Either way, the point still stands, the Catalyst is proposing a logical statement that it found to be true, but Shepard disproves it throughout his journey.

[Zolt51]

111987 wrote...
No it doesn't! The point is to kill organic life BEFORE advanced AI develops. if by bad luck an advanced AI DID develop before the 50,000 years, Sovereign could just start the harvest sooner.

Buddy you're hurting yourself. Believe me I tried getting that point across. You won't ever convince the haters.

Let's go play multi and forget the whole flame war.

By the way it's a good point I'd forgotten from ME1. Sovereign Didn't start the process early when the Geth emerged hundreds of years ago, but he did start it within a couple decades when humans entered the galactic stage. He saw early on we had the potential to beat the reapers if left unchecked.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

[starjay001]

I also would like to add to this discussion. I strongly feel that the reapers not just harvest all advanced organics but they also destroy the AIs prevalent at that time so that the innocent and young species across the galaxy start afresh without any proof of whatever happened. Please refer back to ME 1 when Liara explains to Shepard how the Protheans were not the only species who were at the top but many more before them succeeded and failed. If every organic race during and before the Protheans built AIs then where are those machines ? it's VERY CLEAR that Sovereign and his reaper brethren wipe out organics and synthetics alike to wipe the slate clean for the next cycle.

[Pseudo Ethic]

I'm glad to see how the same points are reused over the entire thread in creative fashion, but it should be reminded that Mass Effect wasn't created by a Reaper. Trying to explain the logical fallacies presented as ultimately being that 37 million year old synthetics have infinitely more knowledge of chaotic nature than the organics they destroy every 50k years cannot possibly be a last refuge.

There are too many variables to defend Reaper logic with certainty. It seems as if people would be better off speculating, dreaming and sharing their ideas of possible outcomes than debate the Catalyst's logic which could be purposely misleading for people to over-think simpler meanings. For all that has been presented, we could still assume far too much than necessary after an ending of this caliber. Reapers could suddenly merge together to form a giant Jesus Autobot and resurrect everyone who have ever died since they've arrived, then create a new form of relay that drops people off in a completely different galaxy to precede the story of Mass Effect 4. That's right, Mass Effect 3: Jesus Autobot DLC. You'd buy it.

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

That's totally not logical. For it to be logical, conclusion has to follow from the premises. My point is that it doesn't. There is no scenario where advanced AI must kill all organic life unless you pressupose that it will, and tautologies (while technically valid) are not exactly "solid" reasoning.

The Reapers obviously think advanced AI is a threat.. Why? They MUST have seen/experienced incidents before the Reapers where advanced AI always attacked organics (eventually).

The original Reaper must have had a reason for becoming a Reaper, and subsequent experiences would have solidified this thinking.

[Aiyie]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

That's totally not logical. For it to be logical, conclusion has to follow from the premises. My point is that it doesn't. There is no scenario where advanced AI must kill all organic life unless you pressupose that it will, and tautologies (while technically valid) are not exactly "solid" reasoning.

may not be reasonable from our perspective... but from the perspective of the reaper's creators (maybe they did face a synthetic foe dedicated to wiping out all organic life, advanced or not... and didn't have an example like the geth-quarians to prove their logic false) it may have been reasonable and valid enough to justify their logic.

[Wowlock]

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...



Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ?

The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

No. They are Abominations... You cannot tell me that they are organics because they covered some metals with organic fluid.

Soo you call Husks organics too ? Because all of Reaper ''assets'' are infused with Syntetic material. And that God-child was no Organic.

Point is, unless we can't learn their Real Origin, as in, when did they get this harvest idea and started doing it  , their logic will always sound messed up and based on their assumpitons. And I am sorry as my mind won't accept such ridicilous logic.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Then keep your argument focused on that! Focus on why the Starchild is nonsensical, not why he's lying, like you've been arguing in the past.

I am focusing on that.  And everytime I bring up a solid point you say "nuh-uh, because starchild said so & so."  My entire argument is based on *WHAT WE HAVE SEEN*, not what Starchild said.  Yours is based entirely on his words.

No, not wrong. Shepard is going to activate it and hope for the best. Of course he didn't anticpate Starchild. What do you think I'm arguing here? Again, YOU have no proof the Starchild ISN'T offering all options. Why wouldn't he? He gave you the option to kill him for crying out loud.

Why wouldn't he offer all the options?  Uh...because he's a race of machines that are out to eat my brain and I'm on the cusp of using the only potential resource we have to stop him.

The problem you run into when you deal with what the Star Child himself says (and whether or not its a TRUE statement) is this - the ending is imcomplete.  The only people that can say, with certainty "this is how the Mass Effect galaxy works" are the writers.  And they are silent on the points that are in debate here.  Thus, the only point to this debate is to state an opinion on the pure logic of the situation.

Logically speaking, Shepard wouldn't trust a single word the Star Child had to say.  Not a single word.  If the Star Child entered his brain-tubes and showed him images of all the failures that had come before him, maybe.  But there isn't even that.  Its just words.  Empty words.  Shepard would choose an option he felt was right, and NONE of those options were ones he would feel was right.  The mass relays blowing up alone is not worth the cost to the majority of Shepard players out there (read: the fallout from the destruction of the solar systems, the complete loss of a galatic economy, the starvation of the fleets near earth, etc.).  Thus, the notion of simply taking the Star Child's words at face value completely undermines any argument for their validity.

Then you're Shepard will doom the galaxy. Congrats!

You have no way of knowing this.  We had already made strides in destroying Reapers, and the war with the Reapers in the Prothean cycle went on for centuries - and that's after following the initital loss of galatic cohesiveness due to the loss of the Citadel.  Simply assuming that because you don't pick any of the Star Child's galaxy-breaking options you lose is rediculous.

No it doesn't! The point is to kill organic life BEFORE advanced AI develops. if by bad luck an advanced AI DID develop before the 50,000 years, Sovereign could just start the harvest sooner.

Holy crap what part of this do you not understand.

If Sovereign can respond to threats as they appear, HE DOES NOT NEED TO TAKE ACTION BEFORE THEY APPEAR.

If Sovereign cannot respond to threats as they appear,
THE GALAXY IS NO LONGER SAFE IF HE DOESN'T MAKE THE AT &T CALL TO THE BULLPEN EVERY 50k YEARS!

Newsflash: HE FAILED TO PLACE THE CALL THIS TIME.

Therefore: Reapers are ineffective, or they don't care about organic survival in the way they claim.

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

In Exile wrote...
 And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI!

Still yes.

In Exile wrote...

And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

Here is where you make a nonsensical leap. The Catalyst argues that organics will always make AI, and eventually those AI will turn on organics. This is true.

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics. Unless you are saying a group of individuals is the same thing as a collective consciousness.

[starjay001]

Well.. I have a question. Why do reapers all resemble bugs/squids ??? it's evident reapers have been harvesting species for millions of years and that they take the form of the species they harvest. Why do we only get to see reapers that look like squids or some sort of bug ??

[Beast919]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

^ This.

If Reapers are inorganic, it doesn't make sense as they protect organic life, rather than destroy it.

If Reapers are organic, it doesn't make sense as they can resist the urge to make the inevitable AI that would be their own doom.

If Reapers are a hybrid and  thats viewed as the only safe medium, super special phantom god-child would have settled on the Synthesis option before a 50k cycle of galatic purging.

No matter which way you cut it, the Reapers are lying.

[111987]

Wowlock wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...



Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ?

The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

No. They are Abominations... You cannot tell me that they are organics because they covered some metals with organic fluid.

Soo you call Husks organics too ? Because all of Reaper ''assets'' are infused with Syntetic material. And that God-child was no Organic.

Point is, unless we can't learn their Real Origin, as in, when did they get this harvest idea and started doing it  , their logic will always sound messed up and based on their assumpitons. And I am sorry as my mind won't accept such ridicilous logic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Reapers are organic hiveminds. This isn't debateable.

You are saying that because we can't understand their perspective, their logic must be wrong. I hope you understand why this is wrong.

[111987]

starjay001 wrote...

Well.. I have a question. Why do reapers all resemble bugs/squids ??? it's evident reapers have been harvesting species for millions of years and that they take the form of the species they harvest. Why do we only get to see reapers that look like squids or some sort of bug ??

Their outer shells all take on a similar form. The core of the Reaper takes the form of the species used to create it (as seen by the Human Reaper).

This was confirmed in a developer interview for ME2.

[starjay001]

111987 wrote...

starjay001 wrote...

Well.. I have a question. Why do reapers all resemble bugs/squids ??? it's evident reapers have been harvesting species for millions of years and that they take the form of the species they harvest. Why do we only get to see reapers that look like squids or some sort of bug ??

Their outer shells all take on a similar form. The core of the Reaper takes the form of the species used to create it (as seen by the Human Reaper).

This was confirmed in a developer interview for ME2.

so you are telling me that inside every reaper ship there could be some sort of shape that resembles a certain species ?? how is that even possible. Besides the human reaper resembled a human skeleton. Where is the prothean reaper ? I know it's irrelevant but the lore should remain loyal instead of contradictions.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...
The Reapers obviously think advanced AI is a threat.. Why? They MUST have seen/experienced incidents before the Reapers where advanced AI always attacked organics (eventually).

Okay, fine. AI can beat the Reapers. Then the Reapers are pointless, and just comitting genocide for ****s and giggles until the Super AI comes and eliminates all organics.

Again, either the Reapers are unstoppable (in which case they could just stop all the AI without killing any organics) or they aren't, in which case plan genocide is just insane.

The original Reaper must have had a reason for becoming a Reaper, and subsequent experiences would have solidified this thinking.

Or maybe it didn't. Gee, it would be great if instead of some BS space god baby, that was in the actual game, huh?