597 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

starjay001 wrote...

111987 wrote...

starjay001 wrote...

Well.. I have a question. Why do reapers all resemble bugs/squids ??? it's evident reapers have been harvesting species for millions of years and that they take the form of the species they harvest. Why do we only get to see reapers that look like squids or some sort of bug ??

Their outer shells all take on a similar form. The core of the Reaper takes the form of the species used to create it (as seen by the Human Reaper).

This was confirmed in a developer interview for ME2.

so you are telling me that inside every reaper ship there could be some sort of shape that resembles a certain species ?? how is that even possible. Besides the human reaper resembled a human skeleton. Where is the prothean reaper ? I know it's irrelevant but the lore should remain loyal instead of contradictions.

Did you play ME2? The Human Reaper is definitely small enough to fit within a Reaper shell. There is no Prothean Reaper because they were genetically incompatible, and thus were turned into Collectors.

www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx

That is the interview.

[In Exile]

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

... [other stuff]...

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics.

I see. I understand the problem. You're just bad at logic. In one post, you told me (1) that the Reapers are organic and (2) that the Reapers are "not comparable with organics" and think that these two statements can co-exist.

I suddenly see the futility of convincing you why the Catalyst is logically inconsistent.

Modifié par In Exile, 16 mars 2012 - 05:49 .

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

Okay, fine. AI can beat the Reapers. Then the Reapers are pointless, and just comitting genocide for ****s and giggles until the Super AI comes and eliminates all organics.

How did you reach this conclusion? The Reapers are not pointless; they PREVENT a super AI from coming into existence. They harvest the species to stop them from advancing to the point where they could create an AI that could defeat the Reapers.

That's honestly probably the real reason they have this cycle. To make sure nothing else more powerful comes along to destroy them. But it seems like they've convinced themselves they're really doing it for the good of the galaxy.

In Exile wrote...
Or maybe it didn't. Gee, it would be great if instead of some BS space god baby, that was in the actual game, huh?

Agreed. I'm very annoyed that the option to ask the kid questions from the dialogue wheel was removed from the game by Casey Hudson.

[Peer of the Empire]

forgottenlord wrote...
I don't buy the evolution argument.  The geth, over 300 years, didn't advance beyond where the general society was - even though, collectively, they are still AI.  Their hacking abilities aren't shown to be notably more advanced than the best organics.  The quarians were clearly able to develop counter-measures that were on-par with their creation.

EDI, too (I noticed you mentioned her elsewhere) doesn't advance very far.  Her modified her core programming frequently, but it wasn't really advancement so much as refining her priorities based upon the perspectives given her.  Her only major advancement is when she was unshackled.  Beyond that, her abilities seem far more about the advancements given by the Reapers than her own evolution.

AI have eternity to evolve, and are tireless.  Humanity can actually regress more easily

[Wowlock]

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...



Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ?

The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

No. They are Abominations... You cannot tell me that they are organics because they covered some metals with organic fluid.

Soo you call Husks organics too ? Because all of Reaper ''assets'' are infused with Syntetic material. And that God-child was no Organic.

Point is, unless we can't learn their Real Origin, as in, when did they get this harvest idea and started doing it  , their logic will always sound messed up and based on their assumpitons. And I am sorry as my mind won't accept such ridicilous logic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Reapers are organic hiveminds. This isn't debateable.

You are saying that because we can't understand their perspective, their logic must be wrong. I hope you understand why this is wrong.

Their ''logic'' conflicts with their actions. They talk about preserving organic life but they don't know the Sense of Organic life. They do not '' protect '' they only destroy.

The only life they know are their abominational existance. Do you actually think any of the Reapers feel like a certain species they are made of ? 

As I said, They play God on galaxtic scale and that makes them arrogant and their logic flawed with smug-sense of superiority. They won't question themselves until someone who actually can challenge them.

And that someone was Shepard who actually defied them and managed to halt their cycle. Even in the end they understood that their way of handling things are about to end and that was their own fault by actually attacking and forcing the organics to fight back instead of protecting them from the threats.

As I said, they see galaxy no more than their experimental kit. They decide which species will entertain them in the next cycle. No matter how you look at it, when they make such decisions on the galaxy, it is not on Galaxy's best interest...it is only for their own interest which is awfully vague.

[OtaconUCF]

Beast919 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

^ This.

If Reapers are inorganic, it doesn't make sense as they protect organic life, rather than destroy it.

If Reapers are organic, it doesn't make sense as they can resist the urge to make the inevitable AI that would be their own doom.

If Reapers are a hybrid and  thats viewed as the only safe medium, super special phantom god-child would have settled on the Synthesis option before a 50k cycle of galatic purging.

No matter which way you cut it, the Reapers are lying.

Go back and watch this video from ME2. It's explicitly stated that the nature of the Reapers is a Gestalt collection of organic minds forged into a mechanical body. Why they don't emphasize this elsewhere I don't know...

 

It's clear they truly believe they're preserving organic life, providing ascension, and saving them from themselves. At the same time, knowing they are at their core organic and capable of irrational thought, it's logical that they can fall victim to pride and hubris just like we could. They're so set in their ways, so biased against synthetic life that they can't see any other option. That they're not right doesn't even occur to them. That their methods of 'preservation' are as horrifying as they are doesn't occur to them anymore.

If they're lying at all, I think they're lying when they state the options available are the only ones. And the main deficieny of the confrontation with Catalyst(because the rest of the ending, regardless of choice beyond this point still doesn't make sense) becomes the fact Shepard isn't given even the chance to challenge the flawed assertion the Reaper leader is making, isn't given the opportunity to suggest his/her own solution, and instead takes one spoonfed to them by an organocidal maniac.

[111987]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

... [other stuff]...

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics.

I see. I understand the problem. You're just bad at logic. In one post, you told me (1) that the Reapers are organic and (2) that the Reapers are "not comparable with organics" and think that these two statements can co-exist.

I suddenly see the futility of convincing you why the Catalyst is logically inconsistent.

Wow really?

The Reapers origins is organics. Thus they are, at their very base nature, organic.

But the fact that they are a collective consciousness of billions of minds makes them VERY different from other organics. "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you can't even imagine it." Please tell me you understand the difference.

[DrowNoble]

2484Stryker wrote...

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

Some people did manage to do that, I know I did.  This is another plot hole as Glowing Blue Boy seems to ignore your actions previously.   He says synthetics and organics can't get along which you already disproved.  Add to that that EDI (synthetic) is not only getting along with Joker (organic) but is actively pursuing a romance with him.

So he says that the reapers are here to save us by destroying us.  Translation:  the Big Synthetics are going to kill you so that the Little Synthetics won't kill you since you don't like getting killed  by Synthetics.   Umm.. wut?

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

[OtaconUCF]

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

... [other stuff]...

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics.

I see. I understand the problem. You're just bad at logic. In one post, you told me (1) that the Reapers are organic and (2) that the Reapers are "not comparable with organics" and think that these two statements can co-exist.

I suddenly see the futility of convincing you why the Catalyst is logically inconsistent.

They are originally organic in nature, yes, but the nature of their current existance is something else entirely. Each is the embodied 'will' of it's 'donor' species, though twisted and shackled to a machine form. A truly horrific fate, if you ask me, more so than just being turned to paste...

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

... [other stuff]...

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics.

I see. I understand the problem. You're just bad at logic. In one post, you told me (1) that the Reapers are organic and (2) that the Reapers are "not comparable with organics" and think that these two statements can co-exist.

I suddenly see the futility of convincing you why the Catalyst is logically inconsistent.

Wow really?

The Reapers origins is organics. Thus they are, at their very base nature, organic.

But the fact that they are a collective consciousness of billions of minds makes them VERY different from other organics. "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you can't even imagine it." Please tell me you understand the difference.

If this consensus is better than normal organics, why not just go with that and rule out organics all together?

If it isn't better, then...why are they superior?

[Aiyie]

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wowlock wrote...



Ok...aside from the all the craziness of their logic, I have one simple question....

Why do Reapers actually care about Organics or the cycle ?

The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

No. They are Abominations... You cannot tell me that they are organics because they covered some metals with organic fluid.

Soo you call Husks organics too ? Because all of Reaper ''assets'' are infused with Syntetic material. And that God-child was no Organic.

Point is, unless we can't learn their Real Origin, as in, when did they get this harvest idea and started doing it  , their logic will always sound messed up and based on their assumpitons. And I am sorry as my mind won't accept such ridicilous logic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Reapers are organic hiveminds. This isn't debateable.

You are saying that because we can't understand their perspective, their logic must be wrong. I hope you understand why this is wrong.

both the reapers and the players are guilty of the same logical fallacy... "because I am right, you must be wrong."

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right?

Yes

... [other stuff]...

Reapers are an organic hivemind, but they are not comparable to organics.

I see. I understand the problem. You're just bad at logic. In one post, you told me (1) that the Reapers are organic and (2) that the Reapers are "not comparable with organics" and think that these two statements can co-exist.

I suddenly see the futility of convincing you why the Catalyst is logically inconsistent.

Wow really?

The Reapers origins is organics. Thus they are, at their very base nature, organic.

But the fact that they are a collective consciousness of billions of minds makes them VERY different from other organics. "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you can't even imagine it." Please tell me you understand the difference.

If this consensus is better than normal organics, why not just go with that and rule out organics all together?

If it isn't better, then...why are they superior?

Um, there's a reason they harvest species they consider 'worthy' every 50,000 years. They obviously believe they are superior, and they are bettering organics.

Only some organics though. This is a huge problem with the Reapers, one of the reasons they're so evil. Who are they to judge who is worthy? Why do they force their point of view on people?

[Beast919]

OtaconUCF wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

^ This.

If Reapers are inorganic, it doesn't make sense as they protect organic life, rather than destroy it.

If Reapers are organic, it doesn't make sense as they can resist the urge to make the inevitable AI that would be their own doom.

If Reapers are a hybrid and  thats viewed as the only safe medium, super special phantom god-child would have settled on the Synthesis option before a 50k cycle of galatic purging.

No matter which way you cut it, the Reapers are lying.

Go back and watch this video from ME2. It's explicitly stated that the nature of the Reapers is a Gestalt collection of organic minds forged into a mechanical body. Why they don't emphasize this elsewhere I don't know...

 

It's clear they truly believe they're preserving organic life, providing ascension, and saving them from themselves. At the same time, knowing they are at their core organic and capable of irrational thought, it's logical that they can fall victim to pride and hubris just like we could. They're so set in their ways, so biased against synthetic life that they can't see any other option. That they're not right doesn't even occur to them. That their methods of 'preservation' are as horrifying as they are doesn't occur to them anymore.

If they're lying at all, I think they're lying when they state the options available are the only ones. And the main deficieny of the confrontation with Catalyst(because the rest of the ending, regardless of choice beyond this point still doesn't make sense) becomes the fact Shepard isn't given even the chance to challenge the flawed assertion the Reaper leader is making, isn't given the opportunity to suggest his/her own solution, and instead takes one spoonfed to them by an organocidal maniac.

That video does explain the Reapers quite well and then begs the question - If the reapers are literally constructed by devouring entire species individual by individual, wouldn't that be an INCREDIBLY good motivation for them to want to purge the galaxy of advanced civiliation but not remove all organic life? 

Trim the crop as it were, spit out a few Reaper babies, then go back to sleep while the next batch grew to a point at which they could then harvest them?

Oh. My.  That would explain their name too.  How stunning.

But nah, they're our guardians, thats more logical.  Our soul devouring nation-of-conquered-flesh guardians.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Um, there's a reason they harvest species they consider 'worthy' every 50,000 years. They obviously believe they are superior, and they are bettering organics.

Only some organics though. This is a huge problem with the Reapers, one of the reasons they're so evil. Who are they to judge who is worthy? Why do they force their point of view on people?

So this same race that has been determining which civilizations are "worthy" of being devoured for supposed eons, is now suddenly going to turn the decision of what to do with them over to a random singular organic.  Thats logical.

How you can still support anything the star child says is so far beyond me.

Their role as protectors doesn't make sense.  There is nothing to support there ever having been a real AI threat.

Their role as devourers of society IS THEIR METHOD OF REPRODUCTION.  WITHOUT THE CYCLE, THEY CEASE TO GROW.

Now, why exactly would you trust complete nonsense over the basic urge to live?

[GM Jaken]

All your logic is flawed.

Reason: This is science-fiction. Not only that, but it's a science fiction where you travel through space by being launched from a cannon that decreases your mass - how is that logical? Who was the first guy to look at a Mass Relay and go "Yeah, that sounds logical. Space cannon travel, let's frikkin' do it!"

So, honestly guys, give it a rest. You guys have spent over twenty pages arguing logic, but seeing how we are driven by emotions (as humans) and are not, in fact, Vulcan, than our logic will always surrender to our emotions first, thus making human logic bias by nature. Logically (to use a phrase found in every post), we will never find consensus on what about the ending is logical.

It boils down to: did you like the ending, or did you not? Logic is irrelevant. It ended. You either like it, or you don't. None of you are going to change the others' mind.

But, this post will likely go unnoticed, or buried in the frenzy of counter-posts. Amusingly, this logic battle has created its own cycle, involving a repeating pattern of "my logic is logicier than your logic" that will go on until BioWare says "stfu" and locks this thread.

Peace. This thread could use it.

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

So this same race that has been determining which civilizations are "worthy" of being devoured for supposed eons, is now suddenly going to turn the decision of what to do with them over to a random singular organic.  Thats logical.

Because that organic has shown that the cycle won't work anymore. Shepard was at the Crucible. He was going to destroy the Reapers. So the Starchild gave him other options, hoping he wouldn't destroy the Reapers.

Beast919 wrote...


Their role as protectors doesn't make sense.  There is nothing to support there ever having been a real AI threat.

Except the fact that they exist? They exist because there was a real AI threat. They prevent future AI threats. This is pretty easy to understand.

Beast919 wrote...

Their role as devourers of society IS THEIR METHOD OF REPRODUCTION.  WITHOUT THE CYCLE, THEY CEASE TO GROW.

What's your point here?

Beast919 wrote...
Now, why exactly would you trust complete nonsense over the basic urge to live?

Um, because my other option is not using the Crucible, everyone dying, and the cycle continuing...

[Zofiya]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

I never said I agreed with their methods: I said I thought they're logic was right; that advanced AI would eventually come to the decision to wipe out all organic life. Catalyst even says he couldn't come up with a better solution until Shep did the impossible and made the Reapers irrelevant because of his awesomeness.

The logical problem is not in the cycle itself, it is in the solution to the cycle: the Reapers.

Even if we assume the basic premise to be true, that sufficiently advanced organics will eventually create synthetics, which will eventually destroy the organics, there is nothing inherent in that premise that should lead Star Child to conclude that the only solution is to stop this event before it happens by committing genocide against the organic species in question. Star Child's conclusion is neither supported by anything we've seen in the game, nor it is not supported by Star Child's arguments (because it doesn't make any beyond "because I said so").

This does not even begin to address why Star Child cares. If synthetics kill organics -- so what? Why is organic life so important? Why is a solution to chaos important? What genius mad scientist decided that being a Reaper was better than being dead? What exactly is Star Child? Was it alive once? Is it an AI, or VI? Who created it? Why did they create it? Why can't it think outside the box -- is that a design flaw, or intentional?

111987 wrote...

The Reapers obviously think advanced AI is
a threat.. Why? They MUST have seen/experienced incidents before the
Reapers where advanced AI always attacked organics (eventually).

The
original Reaper must have had a reason for becoming a Reaper, and
subsequent experiences would have solidified this thinking.

But we are not privy to the rationale behind their thinking, and Star Child's supporting statement boils down to "because I said so". That is the kind of answer parents give when they don't want to have to think about the question their child just asked; it is not a compelling argument.

OtaconUCF wrote...

And everything you say about that type
of existance is why I'm suddenly finding the Reapers much more
horrifying than I did before when I was still operating under the
assumption they were just machines.

*snip*

I'm more glad
than ever that I choose destroy, I may still have killed the Geth but I
atleast put however many billions/trillions of dead to rest.

Agreed.

I went with Control -- I couldn't bring myself to kill EDI -- but the more I think about it the less happy I am with the presented options.

What makes it worse is that the indoctrinated seem to know they're being indoctrinated, and even if they fight it, they can't do anything about it, and the process is irreversible. So the people who likely fought against the Reapers become part of them, and are powerless to escape, or even try to escape. Even if they try to fight it, the indoctrination will eventually consume them, and they will be aware of their increasing loss of control the entire time. The closest comparison we have in reality is a neurodegenerative disease. It is tragic to watch the progress of Alzheimer's disease, especially in the early stages when people know they have it and are terrified of losing themselves; imagine that, but on the scale of an entire species, and trying the entire time to fight it, knowing they will lose.

My only consolation is that whatever consciousness is left in the Reapers is no longer really a person, or alive, and almost certainly cannot feel, and therefore cannot be unhappy with its fate.

[111987]

GM Jaken wrote...

It boils down to: did you like the ending, or did you not? Logic is irrelevant. It ended. You either like it, or you don't. None of you are going to change the others' mind.

Actually, even though i'm arguing that the Starchild was logical, I don't really like the ending. There's a lot wrong with it IMO.

[OtaconUCF]

Beast919 wrote...

OtaconUCF wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

^ This.

If Reapers are inorganic, it doesn't make sense as they protect organic life, rather than destroy it.

If Reapers are organic, it doesn't make sense as they can resist the urge to make the inevitable AI that would be their own doom.

If Reapers are a hybrid and  thats viewed as the only safe medium, super special phantom god-child would have settled on the Synthesis option before a 50k cycle of galatic purging.

No matter which way you cut it, the Reapers are lying.

Go back and watch this video from ME2. It's explicitly stated that the nature of the Reapers is a Gestalt collection of organic minds forged into a mechanical body. Why they don't emphasize this elsewhere I don't know...

 

It's clear they truly believe they're preserving organic life, providing ascension, and saving them from themselves. At the same time, knowing they are at their core organic and capable of irrational thought, it's logical that they can fall victim to pride and hubris just like we could. They're so set in their ways, so biased against synthetic life that they can't see any other option. That they're not right doesn't even occur to them. That their methods of 'preservation' are as horrifying as they are doesn't occur to them anymore.

If they're lying at all, I think they're lying when they state the options available are the only ones. And the main deficieny of the confrontation with Catalyst(because the rest of the ending, regardless of choice beyond this point still doesn't make sense) becomes the fact Shepard isn't given even the chance to challenge the flawed assertion the Reaper leader is making, isn't given the opportunity to suggest his/her own solution, and instead takes one spoonfed to them by an organocidal maniac.

That video does explain the Reapers quite well and then begs the question - If the reapers are literally constructed by devouring entire species individual by individual, wouldn't that be an INCREDIBLY good motivation for them to want to purge the galaxy of advanced civiliation but not remove all organic life? 

Trim the crop as it were, spit out a few Reaper babies, then go back to sleep while the next batch grew to a point at which they could then harvest them?

Oh. My.  That would explain their name too.  How stunning.

But nah, they're our guardians, thats more logical.  Our soul devouring nation-of-conquered-flesh guardians.

Um, what? What you said in your first bit is exactly what  they do. Come every ~50,000 years, kill all the advanced life, convert any they consider worthy into Reapers, then go back to sleep. They do this because they believe they're 'saving' the worthy species, however they determine worth, by stopping them from destroying themselves and all other organic life, and while granting them ascension to a more 'perfect' form. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

I'm saying that because they're organic in nature, they capable of falling victim to the same irrationality and emotion we are, on some level at least, and are likely blinded to the possibility that their grand scheme is flawed. That maybe organics and synthetics can live in peace. As far as they're concerned they're damn heros. 

I'm not following where we're in disagreement at all here. Are you saying my personal feelings on what their motivations are are wrong?

[Beast919]

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

[GM Jaken]

111987 wrote...

GM Jaken wrote...

It boils down to: did you like the ending, or did you not? Logic is irrelevant. It ended. You either like it, or you don't. None of you are going to change the others' mind.

Actually, even though i'm arguing that the Starchild was logical, I don't really like the ending. There's a lot wrong with it IMO.

Not quite the point I was trying to drive.

[Aiyie]

Beast919 wrote...

OtaconUCF wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

111987 wrote...
The Reapers care about organics because they ARE organics.

Awesome! So, Repears are organics, right? And what's one thing Reapers will never do? Create AI! And what will that mean? That there's at least one case where an organic won't create an AI that will destroy all life, so the Catalyst is wrong.

There we go. Logic'd.

^ This.

If Reapers are inorganic, it doesn't make sense as they protect organic life, rather than destroy it.

If Reapers are organic, it doesn't make sense as they can resist the urge to make the inevitable AI that would be their own doom.

If Reapers are a hybrid and  thats viewed as the only safe medium, super special phantom god-child would have settled on the Synthesis option before a 50k cycle of galatic purging.

No matter which way you cut it, the Reapers are lying.

Go back and watch this video from ME2. It's explicitly stated that the nature of the Reapers is a Gestalt collection of organic minds forged into a mechanical body. Why they don't emphasize this elsewhere I don't know...

 

It's clear they truly believe they're preserving organic life, providing ascension, and saving them from themselves. At the same time, knowing they are at their core organic and capable of irrational thought, it's logical that they can fall victim to pride and hubris just like we could. They're so set in their ways, so biased against synthetic life that they can't see any other option. That they're not right doesn't even occur to them. That their methods of 'preservation' are as horrifying as they are doesn't occur to them anymore.

If they're lying at all, I think they're lying when they state the options available are the only ones. And the main deficieny of the confrontation with Catalyst(because the rest of the ending, regardless of choice beyond this point still doesn't make sense) becomes the fact Shepard isn't given even the chance to challenge the flawed assertion the Reaper leader is making, isn't given the opportunity to suggest his/her own solution, and instead takes one spoonfed to them by an organocidal maniac.

That video does explain the Reapers quite well and then begs the question - If the reapers are literally constructed by devouring entire species individual by individual, wouldn't that be an INCREDIBLY good motivation for them to want to purge the galaxy of advanced civiliation but not remove all organic life? 

Trim the crop as it were, spit out a few Reaper babies, then go back to sleep while the next batch grew to a point at which they could then harvest them?

Oh. My.  That would explain their name too.  How stunning.

But nah, they're our guardians, thats more logical.  Our soul devouring nation-of-conquered-flesh guardians.

self-delusion.  maybe their original purpose got subverted over time... its moved from simple preservation (perhaps the original creators of the reapers voluntarily allowed themselves to be harvested to avoid extinction at the hands of synthetics)... to simple self-preservation.

course, that would be dependent on reapers having emotions... wouldn't surprise me considering their melding of organic and synthetic.

[Beast919]

OtaconUCF wrote...

Um, what? What you said in your first bit is exactly what  they do. Come every ~50,000 years, kill all the advanced life, convert any they consider worthy into Reapers, then go back to sleep. They do this because they believe they're 'saving' the worthy species, however they determine worth, by stopping them from destroying themselves and all other organic life, and while granting them ascension to a more 'perfect' form. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

I'm saying that because they're organic in nature, they capable of falling victim to the same irrationality and emotion we are, on some level at least, and are likely blinded to the possibility that their grand scheme is flawed. That maybe organics and synthetics can live in peace. As far as they're concerned they're damn heros. 

I'm not following where we're in disagreement at all here. Are you saying my personal feelings on what their motivations are are wrong?

I wasn't disagreeing with you - more voicing why info like this completely undermines the OP's point.  Flat out, their logic can't make sense.  Either they're not viewing all options, which inherantly makes any choice they pick *not* a logical one as they aren't viewing it correctly, or they're willfully choosing one that serves their ends ("ascending" races into reaper form, etc.)

The AI threat comes out of left field and is never explained, nor given *any* credence to it having occured before.  I just don't think the OP is ever going to accept that fact after some of the nonsense he's spouted.

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Not following your train of thought here. It implies he knows how what happened?

The Reapers believe organic life is an accident. That's why they converted themselves, and other races, into Reapers; to ensure they would live forever. Sovereign is mostly disdainful of organics because they are flesh and blood, and are mortal. That's his biggest problem with organics. Becoming a Reaper solves that.

[Beast919]

Aiyie wrote...

self-delusion.  maybe their original purpose got subverted over time... its moved from simple preservation (perhaps the original creators of the reapers voluntarily allowed themselves to be harvested to avoid extinction at the hands of synthetics)... to simple self-preservation.

course, that would be dependent on reapers having emotions... wouldn't surprise me considering their melding of organic and synthetic.

Assuming this is true, why the 180 to suddenly offer an option to a random organic that dooms their entire race to destruction or else melds synthetic/genetic code to the point where Reaper reproduction would no longer be necessary nor possible as everyone would be equivalent.