597 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

GM Jaken wrote...

111987 wrote...

GM Jaken wrote...

It boils down to: did you like the ending, or did you not? Logic is irrelevant. It ended. You either like it, or you don't. None of you are going to change the others' mind.

Actually, even though i'm arguing that the Starchild was logical, I don't really like the ending. There's a lot wrong with it IMO.

Not quite the point I was trying to drive.

I know, but just pointing out that that assumption wasn't necesarrily true. If you don't like the thread though, you really shouldn't post. It doesn't contribute to the actual discussion when you basically tell people to shut up.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Not following your train of thought here. It implies he knows how what happened?

The Reapers believe organic life is an accident. That's why they converted themselves, and other races, into Reapers; to ensure they would live forever. Sovereign is mostly disdainful of organics because they are flesh and blood, and are mortal. That's his biggest problem with organics. Becoming a Reaper solves that.

Why would they believe organic life is an accident.  And if they believed it was an accident, what do they think is right? The only other option is....non-organic life.  The very thing they are swearing to defend organic life from.  Do you not realize the complete nonsense you're writing?

[OtaconUCF]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Um, there's a reason they harvest species they consider 'worthy' every 50,000 years. They obviously believe they are superior, and they are bettering organics.

Only some organics though. This is a huge problem with the Reapers, one of the reasons they're so evil. Who are they to judge who is worthy? Why do they force their point of view on people?

So this same race that has been determining which civilizations are "worthy" of being devoured for supposed eons, is now suddenly going to turn the decision of what to do with them over to a random singular organic.  Thats logical.

How you can still support anything the star child says is so far beyond me.

Their role as protectors doesn't make sense.  There is nothing to support there ever having been a real AI threat.

Their role as devourers of society IS THEIR METHOD OF REPRODUCTION.  WITHOUT THE CYCLE, THEY CEASE TO GROW.

Now, why exactly would you trust complete nonsense over the basic urge to live?

Ohhh, I see what you're saying now. That their stated goals are a lie and all they exist to do is reproduce through the reaping they do, yes?

If that were the case then there's absolutely no reason for them to lie in the first place, why bother? 

[Aiyie]

But we are not privy to the rationale behind their thinking, and Star Child's supporting statement boils down to "because I said so". That is the kind of answer parents give when they don't want to have to think about the question their child just asked; it is not a compelling argument.

just to point out...

that "because i said so" answer is also given by parents when you get tired of answering the same dam thing over and over and over and over and over again....

or...

when you know your child won't understand the answer because its too complex (or potentially damaging to the psyche at that young age) for his/her not yet fully developed mind to comprehend.

[CavScout]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

This.
Sorry, but I'm not gonna let some AIChild tell me synthetics and organics can't make peace when I just brokered a peace treaty between the two. Twice in 2 playthroughs(both different sheps).
So the starchild is wrong. So very wrong.

That's like arguing that since none of the people you know are criminals, there are no criminals....

[111987]

Beast919 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Not following your train of thought here. It implies he knows how what happened?

The Reapers believe organic life is an accident. That's why they converted themselves, and other races, into Reapers; to ensure they would live forever. Sovereign is mostly disdainful of organics because they are flesh and blood, and are mortal. That's his biggest problem with organics. Becoming a Reaper solves that.

Why would they believe organic life is an accident.  And if they believed it was an accident, what do they think is right? The only other option is....non-organic life.  The very thing they are swearing to defend organic life from.  Do you not realize the complete nonsense you're writing?

They believe organic life is an accident because the creation of life, from an evolutionary standpoint, requires an incredible amount of luck. Some people just consider accidents and luck to be the same thing.

The only other option to the Reapers is ascending organic life to Reaper form, a collective consciousness.

You only think I'm writing complete nonsense because you are twisting my argument.

[Aiyie]

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

not necessarily.  Sovereign's words strike me as no different than a kid saying he hates his father, or a woman talking about how much she hates her body.

[Sangheili_1337]

I still don't understand what exactly is the catalyst. Is it the leader of the Reapers or is it made by the Reapers creators and controlling the Reapers without their knowledge?

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...

Because that organic has shown that the cycle won't work anymore. Shepard was at the Crucible. He was going to destroy the Reapers. So the Starchild gave him other options, hoping he wouldn't destroy the Reapers.

No.  He wasn't.  He failed.  He would have bled out a foot from the console.  He. Failed.  Godchild brought him up into space-land and essentially woke him up (inexplicably).  He was *aiding* Shepard.  Not fighting against him like they should have been.  And why on EARTH, WHY would the star child "Offer" the chance to have his entire species destroyed.  Shepard had ZERO BARGAINING POWER.  Oh my god you make less sense with every sentence.

Except the fact that they exist? They exist because there was a real AI threat. They prevent future AI threats. This is pretty easy to understand.

Its easy to understand if you just assume its true.  Oh, by the way, humans were created to destroy a race of evil monkey-rhinos that were terrorizing a local Sheep-Deer.  We exist though, so I must be right, right? 

What's your point here?

My point here is all life as we know it exists with the singular common goal of reproduction.  Even Synthetic life is portrayed as being incredibly protective of its right to live/grow.

So why, why would the Reapers willingly give up their only method of reproduction?  Why?  What do they gain?

Um, because my other option is not using the Crucible, everyone dying, and the cycle continuing...

Again, you have no proof of that, there's centuries still to come of struggle if the Protheans are any medium to judge.  You wouldn't throw away all other hopes of survial on the whims of some god-child "just cause".  And again, Shepard (especially if you play Renegade) has stressed repeatedly**** that he would rather die than be a slave.  Accepting the god child's options simply because he tells you to is servitude.

[OtaconUCF]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

I still don't understand what exactly is the catalyst. Is it the leader of the Reapers or is it made by the Reapers creators and controlling the Reapers without their knowledge?

That is a good question. He says that the Reapers are his, that they're his solution. So maybe calling him a Reaper is a misnomer, because that seems to imply he isn't one. Though he does also refer to himself as part of their group, "We know you've thought about destroying us." It's hard to say what he is, exactly. Which is also part of the problem with him as a story device, he's pretty much a literal deus ex machina, as it stands, appearing with no real explanation to close things up. 

[Aiyie]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

I still don't understand what exactly is the catalyst. Is it the leader of the Reapers or is it made by the Reapers creators and controlling the Reapers without their knowledge?

could be a control system.

the reapers are composed of the races that they harvest.  they appear to have individual personalities.  it follows that some of them might not completely buy into the whole reaper philosophy about continuing the cycle.

the catalyst may just be there to ensure that everyone keeps in line.

[Beast919]

111987 wrote...


They believe organic life is an accident because the creation of life, from an evolutionary standpoint, requires an incredible amount of luck. Some people just consider accidents and luck to be the same thing.

The only other option to the Reapers is ascending organic life to Reaper form, a collective consciousness.

You only think I'm writing complete nonsense because you are twisting my argument.

I don't understand why he would bring up the genetic mutation of organic life as something with disdain if he himself is a byproduct of that "lucky" event.  Also, who is he mad at?  Luck itself?  That makes no sense.

And no, the other option is to remove organic life completely.  If it was a mistake, you can correct it.  End it.  There is nothing inherantly superior about organic life as opposed to synthetic.  Except oh wait, thats how you make Reaper babies.

[111987]

[quote]Beast919 wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

Because that organic has shown that the cycle won't work anymore. Shepard was at the Crucible. He was going to destroy the Reapers. So the Starchild gave him other options, hoping he wouldn't destroy the Reapers.

No.  He wasn't.  He failed.  He would have bled out a foot from the console.  He. Failed.  Godchild brought him up into space-land and essentially woke him up (inexplicably).  He was *aiding* Shepard.  Not fighting against him like they should have been.  And why on EARTH, WHY would the star child "Offer" the chance to have his entire species destroyed.  Shepard had ZERO BARGAINING POWER.  Oh my god you make less sense with every sentence.[/quote]

Shepard wouldn't have woken up in his own? If you say so...

He didn't offer anything to Shepard. If Shepard had activated the Crucible, the Reapers would have been destroyed. In every ending, destroy is an option. Thus without Starkid's intervention, destroy would have been the option chosen (because Starchild is the one who opens up the other possibilities).


[quote]Beast919 wrote...

Its easy to understand if you just assume its true.  Oh, by the way, humans were created to destroy a race of evil monkey-rhinos that were terrorizing a local Sheep-Deer.  We exist though, so I must be right, right?  [/quote]

...this is so stupid I actually laughed out loud. Completely irrelevant analogy.

[quote]Beast919 wrote...

[i][b]Again, you have no proof of that, there's centuries still to come of struggle if the Protheans are any medium to judge.  You wouldn't throw away all other hopes of survial on the whims of some god-child "just cause".  And again, Shepard (especially if you play Renegade) has stressed repeatedly**** that he would rather die than be a slave.  Accepting the god child's options simply because he tells you to is servitude.

[/quote]

Actually it's said so many times that you can't beat the Reapers conventionally.

Okay, I feel like I'm talking to a wall right now. This isn't going anywhere. Thank you for the discussion, I am out.

[Sangheili_1337]

OtaconUCF wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

I still don't understand what exactly is the catalyst. Is it the leader of the Reapers or is it made by the Reapers creators and controlling the Reapers without their knowledge?

That is a good question. He says that the Reapers are his, that they're his solution. So maybe calling him a Reaper is a misnomer, because that seems to imply he isn't one. Though he does also refer to himself as part of their group, "We know you've thought about destroying us." It's hard to say what he is, exactly. Which is also part of the problem with him as a story device, he's pretty much a literal deus ex machina, as it stands, appearing with no real explanation to close things up. 

It would have been nice if Shepard had been able investigate the Reapers and the Catalyst's backgrounds through dialogue but Bioware just had to have unanswered questions remaining in order to brew fan speculation. Maybe some kind of DLC down the road would wrap everything up. I personally hope the whole thing was a indoctrination attempt and a possible DLC would have him fighting it somehow.

[CavScout]

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Did you watch the video you linked? He states that they (Reapers) are the pinicle of eveolution.

[CavScout]

Beast919 wrote...

Why would they believe organic life is an accident.  And if they believed it was an accident, what do they think is right? The only other option is....non-organic life.  The very thing they are swearing to defend organic life from.  Do you not realize the complete nonsense you're writing?

Unless they believe in a some kind of god, organic life would be accidental or happen by chance.

[Beast919]

CavScout wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Did you watch the video you linked? He states that they (Reapers) are the pinicle of eveolution.

I was confused by the potential chicken or the egg problem this posed.

He states with disdain the organic life is an accident - goes on to speak of how mortality itself is a part of this accident. 

The way he words it, to me, sounds like he existed *before* organic life, that he was the height of evolution and organics are merely an accident that occured later, or a seperate branch at an earlier time etc.

Yet we find out later that Reapers are literally giant combo-creatures made up of individual organic beings.  So....he himself is made up of the thing he despises.  I dunno, something about it seemed...weird.

Seems like if he viewed organics as a stepping stone to his own evolutionary end, he would have said so, rather than what he did say.

[lltoon]

Dodos and sharks will always be hunted down to extinction because of the delicacy of their meat. So in order to save them, we kill the remaining dodos and stuff them like glorified taxidermists. That way the memory of the dodos are preserved and it leaves new room for other animals to appear, until they get hunted to extinction again, which continues the cycle.

The only way to solve this is for the dodos to fuse with mankind. Which will end the cycle of poaching.

My solution is

1. Grab the give-up bars to control the humans, but all the tress in the world will burn up.

2. Jump into the beam of give-up, fusing dodos and humans. The final evolution. All the trees will still burn up though.

3. Peck your beak at the tubes of give-up, releasing AIDs that will kill all humans. All the trees will still burn though.



What would Commander dodo do?

[Beast919]

lltoon wrote...



Dodos and sharks will always be hunted down to extinction because of the delicacy of their meat. So in order to save them, we kill the remaining dodos and stuff them like glorified taxidermists. That way the memory of the dodos are preserved and it leaves new room for other animals to appear, until they get hunted to extinction again, which continues the cycle.

The only way to solve this is for the dodos to fuse with mankind. Which will end the cycle of poaching.

My solution is

1. Grab the give-up bars to control the humans, but all the tress in the world will burn up.

2. Jump into the beam of give-up, fusing dodos and humans. The final evolution. All the trees will still burn up though.

3. Peck your beak at the tubes of give-up, releasing AIDs that will kill all humans. All the trees will still burn though.



What would Commander dodo do?

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[Nejeli]

111987 wrote...

Shepard wouldn't have woken up in his own? If you say so...

He didn't offer anything to Shepard. If Shepard had activated the Crucible, the Reapers would have been destroyed. In every ending, destroy is an option. Thus without Starkid's intervention, destroy would have been the option chosen (because Starchild is the one who opens up the other possibilities).

But people have said in this very thread that if your score is too low and you saved the Collector's Base in ME2 that you ONLY get the Control option. So Destroy can't be the default.

[Kloborgg711]

I can't believe this thread has been going on this long. There is absolutely no logical or physical evidence that can "guarantee" a cycle that organics will ALWAYS create robots that will ALWAYS try to kill all organics. The only way to justify that logic is to trust that RGC simply knows things you can't. Most of us aren't willing to go along with that. It's asking the audience/player to take an enormous leap of faith and ignore critical thinking.

[Beast919]

Nejeli wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shepard wouldn't have woken up in his own? If you say so...

He didn't offer anything to Shepard. If Shepard had activated the Crucible, the Reapers would have been destroyed. In every ending, destroy is an option. Thus without Starkid's intervention, destroy would have been the option chosen (because Starchild is the one who opens up the other possibilities).

But people have said in this very thread that if your score is too low and you saved the Collector's Base in ME2 that you ONLY get the Control option. So Destroy can't be the default.

Don't bother, he's completely dodging the point of - without the god kid's interaction, Shepard would have bled out.  Assuming he does, for whatever reason, wake up, he's not on the upper platform, he's still at the control panel.  The control panel, that, as it turns out, DOES NOTHING.  But yeah he woulda picked the destroy option by default.  Thats logic.

The dude is hopeless.  He doesn't understand that no matter how you look at it, there are logical holes throughout the entire scene that undermine trying to find any meaning in anything that is presented.

Even if parts, or all of it turn out to be "true", or "canon", it still doesn't make sense, and still ruins the flow of the entire series as we know it.

[Harmos]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

"Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks."

What if that AI was too sophisticated for the Reapers to destroy?

Yeah, but that little child brat stated that the reached "the end off all knowledge" and you'd guess that it doesn't get more sophisticated as the "end of all knowledge"

[Beast919]

Harmos wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

"Plus, as that guy said above, if the reapers were created and just killed off every synthetic race that began, THAT would save species from "possible" synthetic attacks."

What if that AI was too sophisticated for the Reapers to destroy?

Yeah, but that little child brat stated that the reached "the end off all knowledge" and you'd guess that it doesn't get more sophisticated as the "end of all knowledge"

^

The reapers are the be all end all.  But they can't solve this question.  Better let the nearly-dead human do it.

[OtaconUCF]

Beast919 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Here's something I'm not quite grasping about this definition of Reaper.

As we understand, from the Legion definition, Reapers are essentially conglomerations of organic beings melded into a 'superstructure' of sorts.

But.....when you meet Sovereign  ( here: )
He claims "organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

This implies he knows how it happened.  This implies he existed, or has knowledge, of pre-organic existence.  Which implies the Reapers are *NOT* made up of organic beings.

But, again, its quite obvious in watching this scene that whoever wrote it intended it to make sense, unllike *everything* that comes out of the star child's mouth.  So I guess that's that.

Did you watch the video you linked? He states that they (Reapers) are the pinicle of eveolution.

I was confused by the potential chicken or the egg problem this posed.

He states with disdain the organic life is an accident - goes on to speak of how mortality itself is a part of this accident. 

The way he words it, to me, sounds like he existed *before* organic life, that he was the height of evolution and organics are merely an accident that occured later, or a seperate branch at an earlier time etc.

Yet we find out later that Reapers are literally giant combo-creatures made up of individual organic beings.  So....he himself is made up of the thing he despises.  I dunno, something about it seemed...weird.

Seems like if he viewed organics as a stepping stone to his own evolutionary end, he would have said so, rather than what he did say.

But that's exactly what they consider themselves. They consider themselvesin comparison to us the way we compare oursevles to say, ants or worms or something similar. As they see it, they are the apex of evolution, having shed all the inconvenient things that hamper normal mortal organics.

Though, I'll grant you that honestly, some of Sovereign's speech does seem like it could use a bit of a rewrite in light of ME2 and 3, mostly because he never raises the whole 'Salvation through destruction' angle that Harbinger says freaking constantly through ME2(and now makes a lot more sense to me after that legion video...).