597 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLostGenius]

Very well thought out. Also these are examples of AI technology JUST getting to the point of superiority, think of how they would develop and advance in the coming centuries, stuff that would make the Reaper's look like babies.

[Arik7]

BioWare should replace the star child with Harbinger.... as the final boss, whom Shepard has to take out with a super rocket-launcher.... or something... Now that would have been cool.

[ohbobsagetpiss]

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

[Saku39]

Luigitornado wrote...

cotheer wrote...

So Reaper creators had some sort of magic (pun intended) crystal ball which told them that, what happened to them is SURE to happen to every civilization in the future to come?

Logic is flawed in its roots.

It is implied that this has happened in each cycle.

Wait just a minute. If synthetics slaughter their creators in EVERY cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to just prevent organics from reaching a certain level of technology? Like, the Mass Effect Relays are a system which sends a galaxy wide EMP every 10k years. If protecting organics from murdering AI is really the goal, why have the Reapers left the Citadel , the Relays, and eezo tech all over the galaxy to find?

Synthetics are created as a direct result of organics discovering Reaper tech, essensially. Why create the only mechanism which would make it possible for an AI to ACTUALLY wipe out organic life. No relays would certianly delay the holocaust, hm?

[Candidate 88766]

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

HOW HAVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS!?

Seriously though, this is a very valid point. If organics create a race of synthetics that threaten to wipe them out, the Reapers can come out of dark space to rescue the organic species. The fear of seeing the Reapers would be enough to prevent synthetic research for centuries.

[Zalitara]

IsaacShep wrote...

Zalitara wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

1. Star Child is an AI.

Where was it said?

I think it's implied. I think the Catalyst was the first AI to turn on his creators, he stored the creators in Harbringer, and thus the cycles were born. He is the Citadel after all, it's fair to assume he's an AI.

It can be interpeted like, but it may just likely be interpreted that he's not AI. When he talks Reapers, the cycles etc, he talks "we". If he's like the Reapers, than he has organic mind and most likely is the first Reaper - the race (or part of it) that "Reaperized" itself.

He does say "we" implying he is one of them, but it's inconsistent, because he also says "I control them." implying he's not one of them.

[GreyhameBioware]

Doomhams wrote...

Also, from seeing videos of Javik conversations, having him around the whole game seems like it would have reinforced this organic vs synthetic theme a lot more.

Not overly.  You can actually tell Javik you don't agree with him, and while he'll tell you he thinks your wrong, that's about as far as it goes.  Javik mainly is a good source of information on Prothean culture (which the afor mentioned opinion is a part of) and the various insights he gives into the Reapers/past species experience.

[Candidate 88766]

Zalitara wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Zalitara wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

1. Star Child is an AI.

Where was it said?

I think it's implied. I think the Catalyst was the first AI to turn on his creators, he stored the creators in Harbringer, and thus the cycles were born. He is the Citadel after all, it's fair to assume he's an AI.

It can be interpeted like, but it may just likely be interpreted that he's not AI. When he talks Reapers, the cycles etc, he talks "we". If he's like the Reapers, than he has organic mind and most likely is the first Reaper - the race (or part of it) that "Reaperized" itself.

He does say "we" implying he is one of them, but it's inconsistent, because he also says "I control them." implying he's not one of them.

It doesn't necessarily matter what it is.

Harbinger was the first Reaper. The Star Child could be an organic mind of the same species uploaded, or it could be a constrained AI, or even a VI, put in control of the Citadel by Harbinger and the other original Reapers.

[Zofiya]

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

1. Star Child is an AI.

Where was it said?

What other options are there?

- Star Child is a spirit/ghost (misplaced, Mass Effect is about sci-fi not the supernatural)
- Star Child is God/a god/equivalent of a god (its powers are too limited to make this plausible)
- Star Child is a hallucination (brings us back to indoctrination/dream theory)

Star Child lives in the Citadel and controls the Reapers, which are themselves AI. Star Child = master AI program is the simplest explanation.

[Candidate 88766]

GreyhameBioware wrote...

Doomhams wrote...

Also, from seeing videos of Javik conversations, having him around the whole game seems like it would have reinforced this organic vs synthetic theme a lot more.

Not overly.  You can actually tell Javik you don't agree with him, and while he'll tell you he thinks your wrong, that's about as far as it goes.  Javik mainly is a good source of information on Prothean culture (which the afor mentioned opinion is a part of) and the various insights he gives into the Reapers/past species experience.

A side note here, but I really liked Javik's dialogue.

The harshness and severity of the Prothean Empire was far better than what I imagined the Protheans to be like.

Its a massive pity they made him DLC - if they had kept him in the game, he could've had a much larger role rather than being a (very interesting) walking codex on the Protheans.

[Arik7]

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other synthetics.

With the level of genetic engineering available, why can't organics "evolve" themselves to be on par with synthetics?  To date, the human brain and the cerebral cortex are the most complicated and powerful "computers" available.

Modifié par Arik7, 15 mars 2012 - 10:44 .

[AdeptusAstartes]

Saku39 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

cotheer wrote...

So Reaper creators had some sort of magic (pun intended) crystal ball which told them that, what happened to them is SURE to happen to every civilization in the future to come?

Logic is flawed in its roots.

It is implied that this has happened in each cycle.

Wait just a minute. If synthetics slaughter their creators in EVERY cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to just prevent organics from reaching a certain level of technology? Like, the Mass Effect Relays are a system which sends a galaxy wide EMP every 10k years. If protecting organics from murdering AI is really the goal, why have the Reapers left the Citadel , the Relays, and eezo tech all over the galaxy to find?

Synthetics are created as a direct result of organics discovering Reaper tech, essensially. Why create the only mechanism which would make it possible for an AI to ACTUALLY wipe out organic life. No relays would certianly delay the holocaust, hm?

The whole idea of the relays being left, along with the other technologies that are discovered further cement that this is either an intentional self fulfilling prophecy, which is perpetuated not only by the Catalyst's circular logic, but the fact that it leaves the tools for organic races eventual destruction within reach. If you go with the logic that the relays are there for the use of the Reapers, that doesn't hold up under scrutiny either. They're essentially an eternal race which has been harvesting organic life for countless millions of years. Time means nothing to them. They move at speeds of up to 30 lys per day according to the codex, so even without the relays they could move throughout the galaxy in what woul d be nothing more than a blink of an eye to them. 

The Catalyst is either insane, or lying.

[shepskisaac]

Zalitara wrote...

He does say "we" implying he is one of them, but it's inconsistent, because he also says "I control them." implying he's not one of them.

Just because he controls them doesn't mean he doesn't have organic mind like they have

aristaea wrote...
controls the Reapers, which are themselves AI.

They are not: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 mars 2012 - 10:41 .

[Candidate 88766]

aristaea wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

1. Star Child is an AI.

Where was it said?

What other options are there?

- Star Child is a spirit/ghost (misplaced, Mass Effect is about sci-fi not the supernatural)
- Star Child is God/a god/equivalent of a god (its powers are too limited to make this plausible)
- Star Child is a hallucination (brings us back to indoctrination/dream theory)

Star Child lives in the Citadel and controls the Reapers, which are themselves AI. Star Child = master AI program is the simplest explanation.

The Reapers are synthetics, not AI's.

It may seem like semantics, but an AI is an artificial mind. Reaper minds are a 'network' of billions of organic minds uploaded into a machine. 

[Razorsteel]

Hell, Bioware/EA should have settled for Galactus. That would have been a better choice.

[JPR1964]

Space Magic in an Epic Scifi Opera is bad... Almost as bad as swooping...

JPR out!

[ohbobsagetpiss]

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other syntethics.

Because after 50,000 years organics might be able to counter them. You can destroy their tech, but they don't forget how to rebuild it. Whatever tech the reapers "upgrade themselves" with will be useless. It's only a inconvience for them. It won't stop them completely from creating super-intelligent AIs. 

there's probably a point of no return with sythethic life. Once you make them better than organics, good luck trying to control them afterwards. That's why the reapers stop advance organic life from getting that far. So lower forms can have a (albiet short) chance to live.

[Candidate 88766]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Saku39 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

cotheer wrote...

So Reaper creators had some sort of magic (pun intended) crystal ball which told them that, what happened to them is SURE to happen to every civilization in the future to come?

Logic is flawed in its roots.

It is implied that this has happened in each cycle.

Wait just a minute. If synthetics slaughter their creators in EVERY cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to just prevent organics from reaching a certain level of technology? Like, the Mass Effect Relays are a system which sends a galaxy wide EMP every 10k years. If protecting organics from murdering AI is really the goal, why have the Reapers left the Citadel , the Relays, and eezo tech all over the galaxy to find?

Synthetics are created as a direct result of organics discovering Reaper tech, essensially. Why create the only mechanism which would make it possible for an AI to ACTUALLY wipe out organic life. No relays would certianly delay the holocaust, hm?

The whole idea of the relays being left, along with the other technologies that are discovered further cement that this is either an intentional self fulfilling prophecy, which is perpetuated not only by the Catalyst's circular logic, but the fact that it leaves the tools for organic races eventual destruction within reach. If you go with the logic that the relays are there for the use of the Reapers, that doesn't hold up under scrutiny either. They're essentially an eternal race which has been harvesting organic life for countless millions of years. Time means nothing to them. They move at speeds of up to 30 lys per day according to the codex, so even without the relays they could move throughout the galaxy in what woul d be nothing more than a blink of an eye to them. 

The Catalyst is either insane, or lying.

Actually, leaving things like the Relays lying around does prevent technology advancing too much.

Galactic life is forced to rely on the Relays, but study of them is banned (I personally believe this is due to Reaper influence - they ensured the Racni would be hostile to make the current civilization fearful of activating Relays and thus discouraging studying objects that are already almost impossible to study). They rely on the Citadel too, despite knowing very little about it - they don't need to, as the Keepers do everything.

There's a reason that humanity is able to match the Turian military in the First Contact War despite being about a thousand years behind them in reaching space travel. Reliance on incredible advanced technology causes a tehcnological plateau. They don't understand how the Relays or Citadel truly work, but they don't need to because they work so well.

[guyfromprague]

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

What he said.

[Zalitara]

IsaacShep wrote...

Zalitara wrote...

He does say "we" implying he is one of them, but it's inconsistent, because he also says "I control them." implying he's not one of them.

Just because he controls them doesn't mean he doesn't have organic mind like they have

aristaea wrote...
controls the Reapers, which are themselves AI.

They are not: www.youtube.com/watch

But he says "Them" he wouldn't do that if he were like them. He's say something like "I control the cycles" or "I am the big boss on campus." Them means those guys over there standing in a group  I am not a part of.

[RLesueur]

The technological plateau thing doesn't make much sense. There are numerous technological advances even in the two and a half years that the mass effect series represents.

[AdeptusAstartes]

Razorsteel wrote...

Hell, Bioware/EA should have settled for Galactus. That would have been a better choice.

Even though I would prefer their stated goals be nebulous at best; I always worked under the assumption that they simply emerged every 50k years to reap their harvest of organic life. The most advanced and compatible races given the 'gift' of ascension to Reaperdom, while the lesser species simply wiped out or repurposed ala the Collectors. Which would explain the existence of the Collectors. The attempt to create a Prothean Reaper failed, and rather than take the entire cycle as a loss they decided to make a decent slave race out of them for future cycles. It explains why the Collector's were running genetic comparisions and fits in with established lore and continuity. 

[Trakarg]

Whether or not the catalyst is right is irrelevant.  The catalyst's presence makes the first mass effect a giant plothole.  No ending can be good if it has the catalyst as we currently have it.

[LTBK]

IsaacShep wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Sorry but Legion, EDI and Shepard resolving Geth-Quarian conflict with peace and alliance between both race, pretty much kills Catalyst's logic.

If you think so then just pick destroy ending. I mean, it's rather clear that's what this is for

You kill both EDI and the geth with that option. It seems like a stab in the back, in my opinion, and that's why I did the control ending in my "good" run. Anyways, that's doesn't mean that my Shep wouldn't have shown the middle finger to the Catalyst instead and tried to find a fourth solution. Heck, we had an open comm (Hackett was talking with us just some minutes before) and we could have asked EDI and the geth for a good solution. They both had reaper's code, so they might had been able to give some advice about it, and I would have trusted them far more than "the guy commanding the giant killing octopus army that was manipulating, torturing and erradicating all advanced organic (and synthetic) beings each and every 50000 years".

Basically, I would have just listened to what the Catalyst had to say and then go "Yeah, ok, now shut up, little flashing brat *Calls Hackett and asks for EDI*". Instead I had to accept as fact anything he said, even if it didn't make any sense according to what I had experienced, and choose between three apocalyptic "solutions" that he was offering me. I think Shep got indoctrinated, after all.

[shepskisaac]

Zalitara wrote...

But he says "Them" he wouldn't do that if he were like them. He's say something like "I control the cycles" or "I am the big boss on campus." Them means those guys over there standing in a group  I am not a part of.

But then he says "we" several times

Trakarg wrote...

Whether or not the catalyst is right is irrelevant.  The catalyst's presence makes the first mass effect a giant plothole.  No ending can be good if it has the catalyst as we currently have it.

It does unless the Catalyst actually can't control/maintain his own "body" anymore. Would fit with the need for Keepers.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 mars 2012 - 10:52 .