597 réponses à ce sujet

[AdeptusAstartes]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Saku39 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

cotheer wrote...

So Reaper creators had some sort of magic (pun intended) crystal ball which told them that, what happened to them is SURE to happen to every civilization in the future to come?

Logic is flawed in its roots.

It is implied that this has happened in each cycle.

Wait just a minute. If synthetics slaughter their creators in EVERY cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to just prevent organics from reaching a certain level of technology? Like, the Mass Effect Relays are a system which sends a galaxy wide EMP every 10k years. If protecting organics from murdering AI is really the goal, why have the Reapers left the Citadel , the Relays, and eezo tech all over the galaxy to find?

Synthetics are created as a direct result of organics discovering Reaper tech, essensially. Why create the only mechanism which would make it possible for an AI to ACTUALLY wipe out organic life. No relays would certianly delay the holocaust, hm?

The whole idea of the relays being left, along with the other technologies that are discovered further cement that this is either an intentional self fulfilling prophecy, which is perpetuated not only by the Catalyst's circular logic, but the fact that it leaves the tools for organic races eventual destruction within reach. If you go with the logic that the relays are there for the use of the Reapers, that doesn't hold up under scrutiny either. They're essentially an eternal race which has been harvesting organic life for countless millions of years. Time means nothing to them. They move at speeds of up to 30 lys per day according to the codex, so even without the relays they could move throughout the galaxy in what woul d be nothing more than a blink of an eye to them. 

The Catalyst is either insane, or lying.

Actually, leaving things like the Relays lying around does prevent technology advancing too much.

Galactic life is forced to rely on the Relays, but study of them is banned (I personally believe this is due to Reaper influence - they ensured the Racni would be hostile to make the current civilization fearful of activating Relays and thus discouraging studying objects that are already almost impossible to study). They rely on the Citadel too, despite knowing very little about it - they don't need to, as the Keepers do everything.

There's a reason that humanity is able to match the Turian military in the First Contact War despite being about a thousand years behind them in reaching space travel. Reliance on incredible advanced technology causes a tehcnological plateau. They don't understand how the Relays or Citadel truly work, but they don't need to because they work so well.

Sovereign also told Shepard on Virmire that they develop along the path the Reapers desire. 

HOWEVER, since their stated goal is to prevent organic races from creating advanced synthetics to destroy themselves, it's like leaving an armed hydrogen bomb under a kid's Christmas tree, not telling them what it is and expecting them to not push the button. 

If the Reaper/Catalyst goal is to keep organic life from being destroyed, giving them the means to do it is counter productive to their stated goals.

[Zofiya]

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...
controls the Reapers, which are themselves AI.

They are not: www.youtube.com/watch

Interesting point, I'd never seen that dialogue.

I'm still not buying Star Child's argument without any evidence, though. There is nothing that convinces me it isn't a liar, a psychopath, or just evil. So until we get that....

Star Child: The created will always rebel against their creators. [citation needed]

Modifié par aristaea, 15 mars 2012 - 10:55 .

[Arik7]

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other syntethics.

Because after 50,000 years organics might be able to counter them. You can destroy their tech, but they don't forget how to rebuild it. Whatever tech the reapers "upgrade themselves" with will be useless. It's only a inconvience for them. It won't stop them completely from creating super-intelligent AIs. 

there's probably a point of no return with sythethic life. Once you make them better than organics, good luck trying to control them afterwards. That's why the reapers stop advance organic life from getting that far. So lower forms can have a (albiet short) chance to live.

But the Reaperd ARE synthetics.  Following star child's logic, the Reapers should be rebelling and wiping out all organic life.  If they can be controlled, so can other machines.

[PsydonZero]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

During the course of the game you learn
that the Geth were building an armada in the Perseus Veil; something they were
doing before Sovereign took control of the heretics. Sovereign was actually
found by Saren in the Veil ( which is stated in one of the novels) Throughout
Mass Effect 1 we discover that Cerberus is working on a few AI projects; one of
which comes to the determination that Catalyst claims is inevitable.

This seems to indicate one thing; Sovereign; being the Reaper Vanguard; hides
in the Veil during each cycle. It's mission doesn't activate until one or more
AI intelligences come to the ultimate conclusion that organics are unnecessary.
The first thing Soveriegn did was take control of the Geth heretics by
convincing them 'the old machines' were their deities. He then indoctrinated
Saren and began his mission to activate the Citadel.

Okay, so...

1. Sovereign is hiding in the Veil.

2. The Geth, who just happen to be in the Veil, are building an armada, because the quarians have one (the quarians started the Morning War, remember?). Their presence in the Veil and their building of an armada have nothing to do with Sovereign.

3. Cerberus is building AIs who deem organics necessary, which Sovereign had no way of knowing about.

4. Somehow Sovereign learns about the conclusions Cerberus' AI made. This activates Sovereign's programming for no particular reason. It then goes about doing what it's meant to do.

when Legion is
uploading himself; he says that the death of the creators is the only solution;
and depending on Shep's interference that is what happens.

He could have meant:

1. The quarians would never stop fighting them and the conflict would inevitably end in a geth victory.

2. The quarians are utterly blind to reason and refuse to cooperate, which we learn to be true until the very last minute, so logically unless someone can somehow change their minds the only solution would be for one species to die.

Both meet the relevant criteria but have nothing to do with a desire to kill all organics.

It is
speculation; but EDI could change her mind after a few hundred years and decide
that organics are detrimental

Even if she determined organics are "detrimental" (in what capacity?), that doesn't automatically lead to a desire to kill them all. She could go live with the geth, or upload herself into a satellite and travel the mass relays while living in a world programmed to meet her every desire.

there is always someone like TIM that will attempt to build a more
sophisticated AI intelligence.

So?

I submitted this simple logic outline to GameFAQs. This is more or less something you could code in Visual Basic.

Premise A: Synthetics will always, inevitably, want to kill all organics. (This is the fundamental belief driving everything the Catalyst does.)

IF A = TRUE THEN create the Reapers and harvest the galaxy.
ELSE do not create the Reapers.

We already know A = FALSE because of the geth and the Reapers. The geth have every reason to want to kill organics and they still reject that notion. Even the Reapers don't actually kill those they harvest; their minds are somehow preserved and transferred to the completed Reaper, which we know from dialogue with Legion in ME2.

Because A = FALSE, the Catalyst is wrong.

Modifié par PsydonZero, 15 mars 2012 - 11:04 .

[AdeptusAstartes]

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other syntethics.

Because after 50,000 years organics might be able to counter them. You can destroy their tech, but they don't forget how to rebuild it. Whatever tech the reapers "upgrade themselves" with will be useless. It's only a inconvience for them. It won't stop them completely from creating super-intelligent AIs. 

there's probably a point of no return with sythethic life. Once you make them better than organics, good luck trying to control them afterwards. That's why the reapers stop advance organic life from getting that far. So lower forms can have a (albiet short) chance to live.

But the Reaperd ARE synthetics.  Following star child's logic, the Reapers should be rebelling and wiping out all organic life.  If they can be controlled, so can other machines.

They either rebelled at one point and are stuck in an insane recursive loop, or are the Reaperized remains of the first civilization to start the cycle, but every civilization after. Who are trying to stop what happened to them...by doing the same thing to every species that reaches technological apex after them. With the very tools they provided. 

Maybe the moral here is don't touch mysterious tuning forks in space?

[shepskisaac]

aristaea wrote...

I'm still not buying Star Child's argument without any evidence, though.

Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

[AdeptusAstartes]

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

I'm still not buying Star Child's argument without any evidence, though.

Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

The downside being you destroy the very sythentic intelligences that helped you reach that conclusion. 

[Candidate 88766]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Sovereign also told Shepard on Virmire that they develop along the path the Reapers desire. 

HOWEVER, since their stated goal is to prevent organic races from creating advanced synthetics to destroy themselves, it's like leaving an armed hydrogen bomb under a kid's Christmas tree, not telling them what it is and expecting them to not push the button. 

If the Reaper/Catalyst goal is to keep organic life from being destroyed, giving them the means to do it is counter productive to their stated goals.

AI development doesn't come from Mass Effect technology.

The Reapers don't give organics any technology that can create AI, and the total reliance on ME technology could very well hinder development of other technologies that could rapidly lead to AI's.

The Catalyst's logic is still pretty daft though. 

[shepskisaac]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

The downside being you destroy the very sythentic intelligences that helped you reach that conclusion.

Yes. However, EDI survives because Normandy manages to escape the wave at least partially. So may at least 1 Geth manage to survive somehow. And if not, then it's very unfortunate but you still managed to defeat the Reapers

[ohbobsagetpiss]

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other syntethics.

Because after 50,000 years organics might be able to counter them. You can destroy their tech, but they don't forget how to rebuild it. Whatever tech the reapers "upgrade themselves" with will be useless. It's only a inconvience for them. It won't stop them completely from creating super-intelligent AIs. 

there's probably a point of no return with sythethic life. Once you make them better than organics, good luck trying to control them afterwards. That's why the reapers stop advance organic life from getting that far. So lower forms can have a (albiet short) chance to live.

But the Reaperd ARE synthetics.  Following star child's logic, the Reapers should be rebelling and wiping out all organic life.  If they can be controlled, so can other machines.

Maybe it's because the star child is above the repears maing them subservient to him. I assume he created them and made sure they are unchanging. Always below his authority. Regardless, the ending is a mess. It's almost not even worth sorting through it all because it just plain sucks. lol

[FoxShadowblade]

Listen to the genocidal kid for a few minutes. It really sinks in that his logic is faulty and based on false assumptions that Shepard has made false, and the Catalyst's only reaction to this is: Choose, it's more than you deserve'

His logic is just plain wrong, it's-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL- His logic is undeniable, his logic is undeniable, his logic is undeniable...

[dannati]

The Catalyst logic and choices only make sense if the protagonist is Tali. Her story is about organic vs. synthetic and whether and/or how they can co-exist. Tali, however, is not the protagonist.

Modifié par dannati, 15 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[Laughing_Man]

I can think of at least 2 more gaping holes in catalist's logic.

1. The little SOB sounds very sure of himself, and talks down to you about the "facts" of life,
yet in the same conversation he admits that by being here, shaperd proved that his "solution" dosn't work anymore - meaning: he can be wrong.
And if he can be wrong about one thing...

2. This one is more a lie than hole in logic.
He defends his abominable "solution" by saying that he "saves" every advanced species by helping them to "ascend" into reaper form.
In ME2 Harbinger makes it pretty clear that the other races - non humans, are inferior, and unworthy of ascension.

[Madkipz]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

I'm still not buying Star Child's argument without any evidence, though.

Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

The downside being you destroy the very sythentic intelligences that helped you reach that conclusion. 

There is no visual evidence after you activate Destroy to suggest that Geth get spesifically targeted by the option along with the reapers, and if only a few geth survive then they can rebuild. They do not have the same needs as organics.

Modifié par Madkipz, 15 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[GBGriffin]

Just popping in here to say that if your logic (and plot) can be explained in full by an Xzibit meme, it probably isn't that great.

Off I go!

[AdeptusAstartes]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Sovereign also told Shepard on Virmire that they develop along the path the Reapers desire. 

HOWEVER, since their stated goal is to prevent organic races from creating advanced synthetics to destroy themselves, it's like leaving an armed hydrogen bomb under a kid's Christmas tree, not telling them what it is and expecting them to not push the button. 

If the Reaper/Catalyst goal is to keep organic life from being destroyed, giving them the means to do it is counter productive to their stated goals.

AI development doesn't come from Mass Effect technology.

The Reapers don't give organics any technology that can create AI, and the total reliance on ME technology could very well hinder development of other technologies that could rapidly lead to AI's.

The Catalyst's logic is still pretty daft though. 

Don't forget the treasure trove on Mars and I believe other planets that the other races of the Galaxy found. Yes those are attributed to the Protheans as well, but the Crucible is something that goes back many, many cycles. Likely the other technologies found do as well. At the very least EDI incorporates outright Reaper tech into her. We don't know when or how it was acquired but it had to have been acquired before ME2. 

The Mass Relays themselves may not have directly contributed to the development of AI technology, but the advances in heat dispersion, miniaturization, engineering and countless other disciplines that would have benefited from it would have helped push progress forward. 

[Zofiya]

IsaacShep wrote...
Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

Actually, you do have to buy Star Child's claim that these are your only options.

Shepard has never given in to the inevitable, never surrendered against overwhelming odds -- but Star Child say "this is true, you must do this" and we are supposed to accept that.

Imagine if you, the hero, spend the whole story getting to the evil wizard, and when you get there, the evil wizard says, "Oh, well done good chap, I am defeated. I'll just come quietly, no need for any messy confrontations. By the way, you now get to drink the contents of one of these three vials. They will all kill you, but I promise that it will be worth it, because they will definitely kill me, too. And if you pick the last one, all my minions will also be dead! Unfortunately, so will some of your friends, but isn't it worth the sacrifice? And you can trust me, because you've just penetrated my stronghold to destroy me, but I've surrendered, and as an evil wizard, I would never lie to you."

Space magic doesn't mix well with Earth logic.

[saracen16]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

I am curious if people see this another way, and any argument is valid. Please
don't just type "no' as a response because that is neither helpful in a
debate without actual reason, and it is ver chidlish. I just wnat to know what
people think about it in the context of the entire narrative.

It's not that the Catalyst is right or wrong. It's just that the logic behind it is not that black and white, and BioWare let you be the interpreter. But I agree that your point has a LOT of merit, and in fact, my viewpoint is very similar to yours: we're led to believe that the possibility exists that the Reapers may actually have it right by preserving organic life. They really are here to save us. "Salvation through destruction" makes more sense than it did before, and even Saren Arterius from ME1 is now starting to sound like a good guy. Hell, by the end of ME3, you also realize that Cerberus, in spite of being ****s in spaaaace, are doing what they think is right as well.

This revelation... That this AI program or starchild or god (whatever it said that led us to infer what it really is based on its [in]fallibility amongst many other things) enacted a plan which was flawed in some way that ran unchecked for 37+ million years... When you think about all this, it's not just thought-provoking and scary... it's downright terrifying. Even finding out on Thessia that the Reapers are merely tools of a mysterious master chills me to the bone every time I think about it. Doesn't it do the same for you?

Modifié par saracen16, 15 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[AdeptusAstartes]

Madkipz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

I'm still not buying Star Child's argument without any evidence, though.

Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

The downside being you destroy the very sythentic intelligences that helped you reach that conclusion. 

There is no visual evidence after you activate Destroy to suggest that Geth get spesifically targeted by the option along with the reapers, and if only a few geth survive then they can rebuild. They do not have the same needs as organics.

I counter that there is no evidence they DON'T get destroyed. I'm not trying to be contrary; it's just the poorly executed nature of the endings. As presented to us we don't have the option to take a word the Catalyst says at anything BUT face value, and when it says all synthetic life will be destroyed, that is what I base that assertion off of. 

[shepskisaac]

GBGriffin wrote...

Just popping in here to say that if your logic (and plot) can be explained in full by an Xzibit meme, it probably isn't that great.

Off I go!

Except the author of Xzibit meme forgot the point - Reapers are trying to protect organics from AIs, but Reapers are NOT AIs

[shepskisaac]

aristaea wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

Actually, you do have to buy Star Child's claim that these are your only options.

How so? He tries to discourage you from picking Destroy ending

[AdeptusAstartes]

IsaacShep wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

The downside being you destroy the very sythentic intelligences that helped you reach that conclusion.

Yes. However, EDI survives because Normandy manages to escape the wave at least partially. So may at least 1 Geth manage to survive somehow. And if not, then it's very unfortunate but you still managed to defeat the Reapers

If you take the sour apple flavored ending though, when they emerge from the Normany the crew has the partially synthetic look to them. which would imply that even in the other endings they didn't escape either the cherry flavored or blueberry waves either. 

I really, really wish that something else was or could be the case, but with the current evidence we have in front of us that dog just isn't hunting.

[dannati]

Also, it's a pretty amazing piece of space magic that is capable of a) targeting and wiping out only synthetic entities galaxy-wide, ~~ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL~~ of only Reapers galaxy-wide or c) rewriting the genetic code of all synthetics and organics galaxy-wide. You don't even have to reconfigure the thing, just press the correct button. It's especially impressive when one considers that half of the device has been spit-balled by less advanced races in bits and pieces for countless cycles.

[AdeptusAstartes]

IsaacShep wrote...

aristaea wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
Which is the point of the ending. You don't have to buy Star Child's story and agree with him. You pick Destory ending and you ain't worried about AIs ever wiping out organics because you don't believe they will do that.

Actually, you do have to buy Star Child's claim that these are your only options.

How so? He tries to discourage you from picking Destroy ending

You're still only able to select HIS solutions. The only options presented are the ones that the Catalyst offers. There is no real chance to offer a rebuttle.

[Blind2Society]

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

That is a mighty fine question sir. The answer to which, space magic.