597 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You don't know it would have led to failure. Wouldn't that be the whole point of your war assets and EMS?

Actually, you do. The game makes it very clear you cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. Fighting them without the Crucible would have lost the galaxy everything, and the Reapers would have won.

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

What were the choices you would have made available for those particular plot points? They're at least logical and follow within established context of what has gone before in terms of decision making.

Give the Collector Base to the Alliance would be the only other alternative I could think of; but considering the very nature of the Base, and the fresh experience of the derelict Reaper and the effect it had on the research team, the options Shepard has available are plausible and logical. 

It's been a long time since I've played through ME1, but IIRC the Rachni queen talks to you a bit, explains what went down back in the day and then it's either take the chance and let it free, or kill it. I suppose another alternative would be just leave it in captivity for when the Peak 15/16 facility is retaken? That could have led to interesting implications down the road.

Yeap, you pointed out the two possibilites I had in mind. Why couldn't we have given the Base to the Alliance or the Council? Why couldn't we lave left the fate of the Rachni Queen up to the Council? Why couldn't Shepard say 'Screw you' to Cerberus right at the start of ME2, and refuse to join them? He could have just used his resources as a Spectre to investigate the human colonies.

Ultimately, this is a game, and therefore not every possible choice can be included. What if as a player, you agreed with Saren in ME1? Can't do anything about it.

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

However the point here is that in what is the final decision of the game the choices that are available to you aren't presented or even the idea of Shepard. Destroying the Collector Base is Shepard's solution. Freeing or killing the Rachni queen is at the end of the day Shepard's choice. The paths offered by the Catalyst are NOT Shepard's solution. 

So what would Shepard's solutions be? He has no choice but to trust the Crucible will work as planned; it's what he's put all his faith into. Abandoning the Crucible accomplishes nothing; telling the starchild to ****** off accomplishes nothing. All it accomplishes is everyone dead.

[Zofiya]

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

[AdeptusAstartes]

111987 Wrote...Actually, you do. The game makes it very clear you cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. Fighting them without the Crucible would have lost the galaxy everything, and the Reapers would have won.

Even if defeat was inevitable, at least Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy would have gone out fighting, rather than accepting the 'truth' of the Catalyst. 
Regardless, not being able to defeat the Reapers without a piece of handwavium doesn't jive with say...ME2, where if you don't make sure your team is loyal, and upgrade the Normandy, then the cost of victory comes every higher. 

111987 wrote....
Yeap, you pointed out the two possibilites I had in mind. Why couldn't we have given the Base to the Alliance or the Council? Why couldn't we lave left the fate of the Rachni Queen up to the Council? Why couldn't Shepard say 'Screw you' to Cerberus right at the start of ME2, and refuse to join them? He could have just used his resources as a Spectre to investigate the human colonies.

Ultimately, this is a game, and therefore not every possible choice can be included. What if as a player, you agreed with Saren in ME1? Can't do anything about it.

Well, one could offer the counter-point that this is the story of Shepard fighting to stop the Reapers, thus capitulating would not be in the cards. Which brings us to....

111987 wrote...

So what would Shepard's solutions be? He has no choice but to trust the Crucible will work as planned; it's what he's put all his faith into. Abandoning the Crucible accomplishes nothing; telling the starchild to ****** off accomplishes nothing. All it accomplishes is everyone dead.

Shepard is given no choice to do anything BUT accept the word of the Catalyst as gospel, no other option is presented or even considered, this is antithecal to not only Shepard's mission, but there is no way for Shepard to even offer their own input into the situation. 
Destroying the Collector Base is Shepard's decision, whereas preserving it is the Illusive Man's. 

The candy colored endings are the options offered by the Catalyst. NOT Shepard. The Crucible is immaterial. The only thing that the Crucible exists to do is to carry out the Catalyst's new solutions. This is stated from the very first mention of the Catalyst. Not in those exact words, but the Crucible does not function WITHOUT the Catalyst.  The higher your EMS and War Assets the more and better options you have available for the Crucible. If the player is maxxed on both, why should they not have the option to say. "Yo dawg, this is wack?" When if they have a higher EMS and War Asset rating it unlocks the sour apple ending as well as slighter better tasting blueberry and cherry endings.

[OtaconUCF]

111987 wrote...

Ultimately, this is a game, and therefore not every possible choice can be included. What if as a player, you agreed with Saren in ME1? Can't do anything about it.

Because agreeing with Saren after everything you've seen in ME1 is clearly insane? His first action on screen is to betray and murder a fellow Spectre and it very quickly becomes obvious he's merely acting as a pawn for life harvesting killer robots. 

Rejecting Cerberus at the start of ME2 leaves Shepard dead in the water. The alliance and Council refuse to believe Shepard and offer no help. And in every conversation you can choose to say you're only 'with' Cerberus because you don't have any other viable options and you have a common goal at the time of stopping the collectors. 

Rejecting the choices offered to you by your enemy, when you shouldn't have any real reason to agree with his premise based on what Shepard has seen, and the two choices presented as preferable are the courses of action advocated by two of the primary villians who end up as servants to the Reapers instead(control by the Illusive Man and synthesis by Saren)? Yeah, I wasn't buying that. And this is the ultimate decision, at the end. There's no further plot that needs to be accounted for. It's the time to lay it out there. I don't know what should happen should you chose to reject what's been put in front of you, but it felt incredibly frustrating that I had to go along with the Catalyst's choices with no realy argument.

[111987]

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

[Hiredguns23]

2484Stryker wrote...

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

Whoa don't go there cause this will conflict with the ending of the story.

[111987]

OtaconUCF wrote...

111987 wrote...

Ultimately, this is a game, and therefore not every possible choice can be included. What if as a player, you agreed with Saren in ME1? Can't do anything about it.

Because agreeing with Saren after everything you've seen in ME1 is clearly insane? His first action on screen is to betray and murder a fellow Spectre and it very quickly becomes obvious he's merely acting as a pawn for life harvesting killer robots.

Not the point. It's not a stretch to believe that the Reapers are too powerful to destroy, and thus we should do our best to appease them. My point is you aren't given every option in every decision.

OtaconUCF wrote...

Rejecting Cerberus at the start of ME2 leaves Shepard dead in the water. The alliance and Council refuse to believe Shepard and offer no help. And in every conversation you can choose to say you're only 'with' Cerberus because you don't have any other viable options and you have a common goal at the time of stopping the collectors.

They only mistrust you because you are a part of Cerberus. Even if the Council or Alliance doesn't believe in the Reapers, as a Spectre you could have independently investigated the situation. The player was railroaded into working for Cerberus.

[AdeptusAstartes]

111987 wrote...

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

That's defeatism buddy. You won't be saving the galaxy from the threat of annihiliation with that kind of attitude. 

By removing the possibility to say no to the Crucible because the cost is too high, the endings are essentially telling you that self determination is a lie, that there is nothing you can do because a God-Machine tells you that you can't. As I've said above, this is the complete opposite of what the entire Mass Effect series has been showing us since the first game released. 

When Shepard accepts the Catalysts truths, they're throwing everything they've fought for four years out the airlock, because the Catalyst told them there is no other way. 

The Catalyst is the mastermind of Shepard's enemy. Of course he's going to tell them there's no other way. 

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Even if defeat was inevitable, at least Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy would have gone out fighting, rather than accepting the 'truth' of the Catalyst. 
Regardless, not being able to defeat the Reapers without a piece of handwavium doesn't jive with say...ME2, where if you don't make sure your team is loyal, and upgrade the Normandy, then the cost of victory comes every higher.

That goes against the entire point of the game; building the Crucible to defeat the Reapers because you can't defeat them any other way. If you don't use the Crucible, you don't beat the Reapers. Making the game entirely pointless, even more than in the real ending.

AdeptusAstartes wrote...


Shepard is given no choice to do anything BUT accept the word of the Catalyst as gospel, no other option is presented or even considered, this is antithecal to not only Shepard's mission, but there is no way for Shepard to even offer their own input into the situation. 
Destroying the Collector Base is Shepard's decision, whereas preserving it is the Illusive Man's. 

The candy colored endings are the options offered by the Catalyst. NOT Shepard. The Crucible is immaterial. The only thing that the Crucible exists to do is to carry out the Catalyst's new solutions. This is stated from the very first mention of the Catalyst. Not in those exact words, but the Crucible does not function WITHOUT the Catalyst.  The higher your EMS and War Assets the more and better options you have available for the Crucible. If the player is maxxed on both, why should they not have the option to say. "Yo dawg, this is wack?" When if they have a higher EMS and War Asset rating it unlocks the sour apple ending as well as slighter better tasting blueberry and cherry endings.

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

[Hiredguns23]

111987 wrote...

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

Theorycraft ftl. You don't know if organics can or can not beat the reapers. There always been allusions they could be beaten but at a very high price. Instead you got a ending that was forced and made no since.  And because we can take endings like bioware did, it easly could of went the way of Independent Day, find a weakeness in an enemy that seems impossible to beat defeat them this way. You don't know.

Modifié par Hiredguns23, 16 mars 2012 - 12:49 .

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

That's defeatism buddy. You won't be saving the galaxy from the threat of annihiliation with that kind of attitude. 

By removing the possibility to say no to the Crucible because the cost is too high, the endings are essentially telling you that self determination is a lie, that there is nothing you can do because a God-Machine tells you that you can't. As I've said above, this is the complete opposite of what the entire Mass Effect series has been showing us since the first game released. 

When Shepard accepts the Catalysts truths, they're throwing everything they've fought for four years out the airlock, because the Catalyst told them there is no other way. 

The Catalyst is the mastermind of Shepard's enemy. Of course he's going to tell them there's no other way. 

The endings do allow for self-determination. You are given three very distinct choices. Your ONLY other choice would be to fight the Reapers conventinally, which we KNOW will end in complete and utter defeat.

If the Catalyst is simply tricking Shepard, why give him any option at all? He doesn't have to let Shepard destroy/control/synthesize him.

[OtaconUCF]

Hiredguns23 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

Whoa don't go there cause this will conflict with the ending of the story.

The outcome is irrelevant to the Geth's place as a contradiction to Catalyst's statements. Regardless of  what ultimate happens to end the Quarian vs Geth conflict...

1. The Quarians were the aggressors in the Morning War, and when given the option to pursue the Geth chose isolation instead

2. The Heretic Geth only come into being after Sovereign arrives and offers them gifts in exchange for assisting Saren, meaning the Reapers are turning their reason for 'the cycle' into a self fulfilling prophecy

3. The Geth majority in ME3 only turn to the Reapers in desperation because they're on the verge of being wiped out by the one again aggressive Quarians.

Again, the outcome of the situation in ME3 is irrelevant to the fact that the Geth were never aggressive against organics without the outside influence of the entities supposedly acting to prevent synthetics from turning against organic life. Honestly, if I had somehow lacked the reputation points to reach a peaceful end to the fighting? Sorry Tali, but screw the Quarians on that one.

[111987]

Hiredguns23 wrote...

111987 wrote...

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

Theorycraft ftl. You don't know if organics can or can not beat the reapers. There always been allusions they could be beaten but at a very high price. Instead you got a ending that was forced and made no since.

It's not a theory. The game repeatedly tells you you can't beat the Reapers without the Crucible. Hackett repeats it multiple times, and he has a better understanding of the situation than anyone else. The Protheans were more advanced than the current cycle species, and more widespread, and still tried to build the Crucible because they knew they would lose conventionally.

[AdeptusAstartes]

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Even if defeat was inevitable, at least Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy would have gone out fighting, rather than accepting the 'truth' of the Catalyst. 
Regardless, not being able to defeat the Reapers without a piece of handwavium doesn't jive with say...ME2, where if you don't make sure your team is loyal, and upgrade the Normandy, then the cost of victory comes every higher.

That goes against the entire point of the game; building the Crucible to defeat the Reapers because you can't defeat them any other way. If you don't use the Crucible, you don't beat the Reapers. Making the game entirely pointless, even more than in the real ending.

AdeptusAstartes wrote...


Shepard is given no choice to do anything BUT accept the word of the Catalyst as gospel, no other option is presented or even considered, this is antithecal to not only Shepard's mission, but there is no way for Shepard to even offer their own input into the situation. 
Destroying the Collector Base is Shepard's decision, whereas preserving it is the Illusive Man's. 

The candy colored endings are the options offered by the Catalyst. NOT Shepard. The Crucible is immaterial. The only thing that the Crucible exists to do is to carry out the Catalyst's new solutions. This is stated from the very first mention of the Catalyst. Not in those exact words, but the Crucible does not function WITHOUT the Catalyst.  The higher your EMS and War Assets the more and better options you have available for the Crucible. If the player is maxxed on both, why should they not have the option to say. "Yo dawg, this is wack?" When if they have a higher EMS and War Asset rating it unlocks the sour apple ending as well as slighter better tasting blueberry and cherry endings.

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

[AdeptusAstartes]

111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

111987 wrote...

aristaea wrote...

111987 wrote...
Screw the whole thing, as in not activate the Crucible? What does that accomplish, except becoming extinct and allowing the cycle to continue?

And this isn't the first time Shepard has been limited in choices. Why did he have to release or kill the rachni queen? Why did he only have the options of destroying the collector base or giving it to Cerberus? This isn't totally unprecedented.

If the cycle continues, you still have Liara's time capsules, the same way the Protheans left VIs and Javik for the next cycle to discover, so you can hope that the next cycle will take your information and try again. And keep trying, until they really defeat the Reapers. At least Shepard and the fleet would die fighting, which is what they all knew might happen and were prepared for. I'd rather fight the good fight, even if I lose.

Killing or releasing the rachni queen was Shepard's decision, and in that case, there aren't many possible options: kill her, release her, save her but give her to the Council (who will probably kill her)?

The Collector base was a forced decision that a lot of people were unhappy about, the same way they were unhappy that they were forced to work for Cerberus... ME players usually don't like forced choices....

How do the time capsules help though? Organics simply cannot beat the Reapers conventionally. They might put up a better fight, but the cycle will just continue anyways. Plus, you know the Reapers are going to reset their trap, whether it be by re-altering the Keepers, creating a new Alpha Relay, etc...

Fighting the good fight results in everything dying.

The Collector Base and Rachni Queen decision just shows how Shepard has in several important cases had his choices limited to the ones presented to him. This isn't any different.

You can see it as a forced choice, but the only other alternative is dooming everyone, and future generations of species, to death by Reaper.

Theorycraft ftl. You don't know if organics can or can not beat the reapers. There always been allusions they could be beaten but at a very high price. Instead you got a ending that was forced and made no since.

It's not a theory. The game repeatedly tells you you can't beat the Reapers without the Crucible. Hackett repeats it multiple times, and he has a better understanding of the situation than anyone else. The Protheans were more advanced than the current cycle species, and more widespread, and still tried to build the Crucible because they knew they would lose conventionally.

No, it's just a theory because no one knew how it would work it what it would do. I was half expecting it to get plugged in and then Harbinger pop out and say...'lol guys, u got trolled this will actually kill you and not us.' 
Turns out I wasn't really all that far off.

[Hiredguns23]

OtaconUCF wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

But I thought my Shepard reconciled the Geth and Quarians?

Whoa don't go there cause this will conflict with the ending of the story.

The outcome is irrelevant to the Geth's place as a contradiction to Catalyst's statements. Regardless of  what ultimate happens to end the Quarian vs Geth conflict...

1. The Quarians were the aggressors in the Morning War, and when given the option to pursue the Geth chose isolation instead

2. The Heretic Geth only come into being after Sovereign arrives and offers them gifts in exchange for assisting Saren, meaning the Reapers are turning their reason for 'the cycle' into a self fulfilling prophecy

3. The Geth majority in ME3 only turn to the Reapers in desperation because they're on the verge of being wiped out by the one again aggressive Quarians.

Again, the outcome of the situation in ME3 is irrelevant to the fact that the Geth were never aggressive against organics without the outside influence of the entities supposedly acting to prevent synthetics from turning against organic life. Honestly, if I had somehow lacked the reputation points to reach a peaceful end to the fighting? Sorry Tali, but screw the Quarians on that one.

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

No, it's just a theory because no one knew how it would work it what it would do. I was half expecting it to get plugged in and then Harbinger pop out and say...'lol guys, u got trolled this will actually kill you and not us.' 
Turns out I wasn't really all that far off.

Okay, let me re-phrase that. The only POSSIBLE way of winning was the Crucible. If it didn't work, the galaxy would be doomed.

[piemanz]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Even if defeat was inevitable, at least Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy would have gone out fighting, rather than accepting the 'truth' of the Catalyst. 
Regardless, not being able to defeat the Reapers without a piece of handwavium doesn't jive with say...ME2, where if you don't make sure your team is loyal, and upgrade the Normandy, then the cost of victory comes every higher.

That goes against the entire point of the game; building the Crucible to defeat the Reapers because you can't defeat them any other way. If you don't use the Crucible, you don't beat the Reapers. Making the game entirely pointless, even more than in the real ending.

AdeptusAstartes wrote...


Shepard is given no choice to do anything BUT accept the word of the Catalyst as gospel, no other option is presented or even considered, this is antithecal to not only Shepard's mission, but there is no way for Shepard to even offer their own input into the situation. 
Destroying the Collector Base is Shepard's decision, whereas preserving it is the Illusive Man's. 

The candy colored endings are the options offered by the Catalyst. NOT Shepard. The Crucible is immaterial. The only thing that the Crucible exists to do is to carry out the Catalyst's new solutions. This is stated from the very first mention of the Catalyst. Not in those exact words, but the Crucible does not function WITHOUT the Catalyst.  The higher your EMS and War Assets the more and better options you have available for the Crucible. If the player is maxxed on both, why should they not have the option to say. "Yo dawg, this is wack?" When if they have a higher EMS and War Asset rating it unlocks the sour apple ending as well as slighter better tasting blueberry and cherry endings.

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

The point is, it's repeated over and over that the crucible is the 'only' way we're going to beat the Reapers, so if Shep does nothing, he effectively dies right there on the citadel while the Reapers  do their thing unabated.

[AdeptusAstartes]

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.

Modifié par AdeptusAstartes, 16 mars 2012 - 12:55 .

[Arik7]

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

THIS

I guess because organic life will eventually be able to overpower the reapers during one of the cycles. "These **** machines keep coming and destroing our tech every 50,000, let's prepare for them next time". They have to keep orgainc life weak. I'm not defending the ending. Just playing devil's advocate. 

Why can't the Reapers just destroy the technology, or perhaps use it to upgrade themselves for defensive purposes, as opposed to destroying the organics.  

If the Reapers can somehow be controlled and restricted to a "higher purpose," why can't other syntethics.

Because after 50,000 years organics might be able to counter them. You can destroy their tech, but they don't forget how to rebuild it. Whatever tech the reapers "upgrade themselves" with will be useless. It's only a inconvience for them. It won't stop them completely from creating super-intelligent AIs. 

there's probably a point of no return with sythethic life. Once you make them better than organics, good luck trying to control them afterwards. That's why the reapers stop advance organic life from getting that far. So lower forms can have a (albiet short) chance to live.

But the Reaperd ARE synthetics.  Following star child's logic, the Reapers should be rebelling and wiping out all organic life.  If they can be controlled, so can other machines.

Maybe it's because the star child is above the repears maing them subservient to him. I assume he created them and made sure they are unchanging. Always below his authority. Regardless, the ending is a mess. It's almost not even worth sorting through it all because it just plain sucks. lol

If the star child is some kind of a god, able to control machines, then organics should have nothing to worry about, right?

Modifié par Arik7, 16 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[111987]

Hiredguns23 wrote...

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.

They got along for like a week...would they have peacefully co-existed for years? Decades? Centuries? Unknown. But the Reapers have been around billions of years and have seen the cycle repeat itself over and over again. I'm inclined to believe they know more about it then we do.

[piemanz]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.

Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly dieing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....

Modifié par piemanz, 16 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[111987]

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.

The very fact that everyone is willing to buy into the Crucible, despite having no knowledge about how it works, shows just how foolish a conventional battle would be. The fact that military officers are willing to risk everything on a gamble shows how they know they can't win conventionally.

[AdeptusAstartes]

piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 

It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.

Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly die'ing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....

Darn Skippy Peanut Butter. Victory the Catalyst's way either meant the possibility of the cycle continuing via the blue rasberry ending, the willful desctruction of a sentient species on the hope that the Crucible worked, or the sacrifice of both organic and synthetic life to create something that is disturbingly Reaper like. Better to go out fighting and at least die on your own terms than live under someone elses. That's freedom, that's self determination. Choosing your path, not the path someone sets before you.