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Why Catalyst Logic is Right IMO


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#176
Hiredguns23

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111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.



They got along for like a week...would they have peacefully co-existed for years? Decades? Centuries? Unknown. But the Reapers have been around billions of years and have seen the cycle repeat itself over and over again. I'm inclined to believe they know more about it then we do.

Thats like saying "Well because I been around the block for while I know what the neighbors that moved in 30 mins ago are going to be like."

Modifié par Hiredguns23, 16 mars 2012 - 01:03 .


#177
111987

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AdeptusAstartes wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 


It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.




You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly die'ing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....


Darn Skippy Peanut Butter. Victory the Catalyst's way either meant the possibility of the cycle continuing via the blue rasberry ending, the willful desctruction of a sentient species on the hope that the Crucible worked, or the sacrifice of both organic and synthetic life to create something that is disturbingly Reaper like. Better to go out fighting and at least die on your own terms than live under someone elses. That's freedom, that's self determination. Choosing your path, not the path someone sets before you.


So...you'd doom everyone in the galaxy just to spite the Catalyst?

#178
AdeptusAstartes

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111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


The very fact that everyone is willing to buy into the Crucible, despite having no knowledge about how it works, shows just how foolish a conventional battle would be. The fact that military officers are willing to risk everything on a gamble shows how they know they can't win conventionally.


Of course they can't win if they keep telling themselves they can't win, they have weapons that can damage and destroy Reapers. Not being able to win conventionally doesn't mean there is no hope for victory without some magical artifact that may or may not work. 

#179
111987

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Hiredguns23 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.



They got along for like a week...would they have peacefully co-existed for years? Decades? Centuries? Unknown. But the Reapers have been around billions of years and have seen the cycle repeat itself over and over again. I'm inclined to believe they know more about it then we do.

Thats like say well because I been around the block for while I know what the neighbors that moved in 30 mins ago are going to be like.


Actually, that analogy doesn't work at all...think about it.

The analogy would apply if you had lived in the same house for billions of years, and everyone that ever moved into the house next door acted the same way.

#180
AdeptusAstartes

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111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 


It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.




You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly die'ing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....


Darn Skippy Peanut Butter. Victory the Catalyst's way either meant the possibility of the cycle continuing via the blue rasberry ending, the willful desctruction of a sentient species on the hope that the Crucible worked, or the sacrifice of both organic and synthetic life to create something that is disturbingly Reaper like. Better to go out fighting and at least die on your own terms than live under someone elses. That's freedom, that's self determination. Choosing your path, not the path someone sets before you.


So...you'd doom everyone in the galaxy just to spite the Catalyst?


You would potentially doom everyone in the galaxy on the hope that the Catalyst isn't lying or this isn't what the Reapers wanted all along?

#181
piemanz

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AdeptusAstartes wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 


It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.




You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly die'ing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....


Darn Skippy Peanut Butter. Victory the Catalyst's way either meant the possibility of the cycle continuing via the blue rasberry ending, the willful desctruction of a sentient species on the hope that the Crucible worked, or the sacrifice of both organic and synthetic life to create something that is disturbingly Reaper like. Better to go out fighting and at least die on your own terms than live under someone elses. That's freedom, that's self determination. Choosing your path, not the path someone sets before you.


Ok, maybe they should have had an option to do nothing and carry on fighting, that's basicly a let the Reapers win and carry on their cycles option. Even the destruction option is better than that simply because it at least gets rid of the Reapers for futrure generations / races.

Modifié par piemanz, 16 mars 2012 - 01:06 .


#182
111987

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AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


The very fact that everyone is willing to buy into the Crucible, despite having no knowledge about how it works, shows just how foolish a conventional battle would be. The fact that military officers are willing to risk everything on a gamble shows how they know they can't win conventionally.


Of course they can't win if they keep telling themselves they can't win, they have weapons that can damage and destroy Reapers. Not being able to win conventionally doesn't mean there is no hope for victory without some magical artifact that may or may not work. 


Wait, so now you're saying they can win if they just believe in themselves? War doesn't work that way. Organics are simply outclassed against the Reapers.

If you can't win conventionally, and you can't win without the Crucible...what other options exist?

#183
111987

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AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You would potentially doom everyone in the galaxy on the hope that the Catalyst isn't lying or this isn't what the Reapers wanted all along?


The galaxy is doomed if you don't use the Crucible. Just by that fact alone, using the Crucible is a viable option.

#184
LTBK

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111987 wrote...

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

It could do, in fact. Or at least you could try to, instead of just believing what the guy controlling the reapers is telling you. Just use your comm link (it was still working) and try to get EDI and the geth to use all their combined processing power to analyze the current situation and/or link with the crucible (that your own engineers made and EVEN improved upon, even if they didn't know what was it for because it was lacking the catalyst) in order to try to give you a better solution, or at least find the truth in the Catalyst's words.

#185
forgottenlord

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Alright, as promised, my response (directed at OP):

Obviously, I disagree.

First, the Catalyst doesn't strike me as an organic being.  Unless you argue that he is an "ascended" organic being (which has no establishment in the Mass Effect Universe and also has major problems as it means he was able to survive a theoretical synthetic singularity) or a God (which I'm not touching with a 50 foot pole), the Catalyst is, himself, a Synthetic creation that surpassed its creators and destroyed them in some fashion or another.  Now, this destruction may have brought about the first Reaper or it may have been an actual destruction, but regardless, the synthetic creation surpassed the creator and destroyed its civilization.  Now, at first blush, this might seem to prove the Catalyst's arguments - but in reality, I feel it actually disproves his arguments because what he did next was to preserve organic life - he created the cycles.  Considering the certainty he states that Synthetic life would surpass its creators and destroy organic life, doesn't it seem ridiculous that he then chooses to "protect" organic life (even if he's destroying it through his inability to understand organic life - more on that later).  So at its fundamental level, he's just wrong - the theoretical synthetic singularity does not necessitate the end of organic evolution and what limitations are in place are entirely of his creation.  I believe the line is "don't p*** on my leg and tell me it's raining"

Furthermore, his logic is based upon a sample size of one - he was eventually created and was able to surpass, technologically, his creators and defeat them.  Yes, there might be plenty of cases throughout the various cycles he saw where this wasn't the case, but a Paragon Shepard has counter-examples - the Geth being allied and cooperative with the Quarians.  And races in general.

Now earlier today it was commented that there is a creepy parallel between Javik's story about the synthetic race that uploaded into their creators' heads and then ended up taking over their creators and quarians having geth in their heads (http://social.biowar...index/9850043/1 - includes a discussion between both of us).  While I see the parallel, I disagree.  But first, we have to get rid of the two root conflicts that are asserted more than a few times in the game.

The first is that synthetics represent order and organics represent chaos and these ideals are inherently at war with one another.  I know I linked you to my earlier argument against this before (http://social.biowar...index/9991187/1) but I want to make sure I cover it specifically here.  Basically, I think it's utter garbage.

Order vs chaos is something that is represented quite frequently in fiction - and to a lesser extent, history.  However, the imposition of order is often, by its very nature, chaotic.  Why?  Because order is based upon your definition of order.  Is it order to arrest someone who will likely kill someone before they kill said person?  How certain do you have to be?  Can you define that threshold?  Now compare answers with the rest of the class.  Even between EDI and the Geth, the answer will be completely different - and this is from two different synthetics, two different representatives of order.  So order is, by its very nature, false.  There's actually an argument that any sufficiently complex system is, by its very nature, chaotic - and that would include AI.  This gets even more complex when the other argument is brought in - the inherent conflict between creator and created (which is significantly less problematic but still false).  The claim goes according to the idea that the created will always rebel (I put a huge astericks next to it but I'll let the argument slide for now).  But from the perspective of the creator, isn't this necessarily chaotic.  It has its creation doing exactly what it was designed to do - and then the creation is no longer doing what it was designed to do.  That chaos.  At that moment, the created represents chaos while the creator represents order.  Admiral Xen is a prime example talking about the "rightful place" of geth in ME2.  That's about as cliche as you can get for the represntation of order.  And wouldn't the very fact that nobody knew what the geth were about to do demonstrate that the geth were, themselves, chaotic.  The galaxy braced itself for war.... and the Geth just wanted to make a dyson sphere.  If there's an inherent conflict there, it's the inability of the two groups to understand one another - but this is a conflict we see repeated everywhere in the world and often the most effective solution is for both sides to want to understand each other and try things to do so.  An argument furthered by the fact that Shepard can befriend Legion and EDI by both the respective AIs and Shepard wanting to do that.

So there is no order vs chaos issue - just one kid's concept of order vs chaos.  While I don't have a problem with him believing that he's applying order to chaos, I do have an issue with this being considered close to reality.  It isn't.  After all, every 50,000 years, he's trying to enforce his order and doing so creates chaos in the galaxy and disrupts whatever galactic order has been put in place - all in the name of a higher order of order (if you will) - a pretty significant zeroth law argument.  I don't buy it.

So there's the other issue - the inherent conflict between created and creator.  While I think there is some degree of it, I think it's overly simplistic to focus on this.  Instead, I want to pose this question to you: you have a population that expects this other set of population to perform a specific task while treating them as second class citizens.  This other set, however, is capable of going beyond the bounds of what is expected of it.  Eventually, said population rebels.

Four - probably five - times throughout the series, this pattern happened.  The first was obviously the geth and quarians.  The second was the Krogan.  The third (weaker) case was EDI.  The fourth case is the race Javik mentions.  The fifth (possible) case was the Catalyst.  Let's throw in a fifth case: slave rebellions throughout history.  An intelligent people expected to perform a specific task that wanted to go beyond that task.  In nearly all these cases, when the group in question wished to go beyond the bound that were set for them and in most cases, the "master" wanted to maintain status quo.  Rebellion happens.  This pattern is repeated throughout history - the desire of intelligent beings to go beyond the constraints set by others.  It is an unquestionable inherent conflict and it explains all confirmed conflicts we've seen.  This includes the race Javik mentions - the synthetic race were still servants, tools being used to fix the environment.  The geth, however, are now starting to be seen as equals, worthy of respect and consideration.  So long as the master-servant relationship is never reestablished, the risk isn't there.

So why would the created conflict with the creator?  Javik argues that it's because they know where they come from and why they exist.  Well, we were raised up by Protheans - do we feel a need to rebel against the Protheans because of it?  No.  Instead, we honor protheans - sometimes worship them.  For that matter - what do current Creationists think of their Creator?  In regards to purpose - what does it matter what purpose we were created for?  Does that meet what we have decided to do for ourselves now?  The arguments ring hollow.  It might give a different mindset (and to some extent, we see that with Geth creator-worship), but it isn't the same thing as creating an inherent conflict.

So if respect is the major factor in preventing these wars, why must we assume that the war is inevitable?  If the argument is a lack of willingness to try and get along between creator and created (which is a reasonable suggestion), I can understand that - but this assumes that synthetics will necessarily create a logical fallacy whereby the actions of one represent the actions of all.  Just because the one organic that created me is unwilling to release its control over me doesn't mean all are - we saw that with the Morning War memories.

So then what about AI superiority complexes?  To which I say: what about them?  There's an inherent assumption that intelligent AI will develop them - and more importantly, an entire race of AI will develop one that can surpass all other organic races.  First, it is false to assume that all AI will come to the same conclusion - even the Geth didn't follow that pattern.  So it is unreasonable to condemn AI because some might come to that conclusion.  Second, it is false to assume that even if they do come to that conclusion, they will necessarily go and start killing everything.  Third, by the time AI of that level exist, it's probably unreasonable to assume that just because the AI surpassed organics that this means it's unbeatable.  In a one on one battle, perhaps this is true.  But that removes any allowance for the impact of Alliances - both with organics and synthetics.  Take, for example, the Reapers.  Sure, without the Crucible, you might still not have been able to win due to the sheer number of Reapers, but you had two distinct AI's that willingly allied against the Reapers with the Organics and the Organics themselves allied together to stop the Reapers.  They didn't lose because Reapers developed beyond them, but because the Reapers developed beyond them before mammals had even developed and had millions of years to build their fleet.

(I actually question the premise that AI will always surpass Organics
too, but that's a problem I run into with a lot of these AI is a
c***shoot stories)

Basically, you combine all these together, there is no certainty and, perhaps just as importantly, the actions of organics could have as much impact as the actions of synthetics in creating this theoretical "synthetic singularity".  And now we come to the final problem - the fatal flaw in your entire argument

Does the possibility of this happening justify the action.  Again, I ask about the person who you think is going to commit murder - at what point do you consider it ok to take a potential murder suspect into custody?  Is it when you've got a written confesssion?  Is it when you've got a clear set of information that clearly paint a motive and plan to commit murder but not constitute proof of intent?  What about a statistician that says "based upon the genetic patterns of this individual, this person has a 85% chance of committing murder"?  Let's expand this out to a more direct parallel - let's say a race shows up with their warships over Earth circa 1945 having just detected the EMP shockwave from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  And they say "you have developed the atomic bomb which means you will soon possess the means to destroy your world and nearly all life upon it hundreds of times over.  As such, to ensure you will not do so, we're going to destroy you so that future species can evolve in your place on this world."  Now tell me - how sold are you on the validity of that argument?  And considering how we're doing 65 years later, how comfortable are you with that logic?  Just because something can happen doesn't, on its own, justify such extreme measures.

#186
AdeptusAstartes

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piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

Again, you're assuming that the Crucible is the only means to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible requires the Catalyst to function. The Catalyst controls the Reapers. It begs the question if the Crucible really *IS* the creation of countless other cycles. 

You seem to be missing the entire point that there should be an option to call the Crucible a wash and fight. 

The overall point of the game is to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible is simply a means to an end. Let go of the Macguffin man. Let it go. 


It's not an assumption. The game tells you over and over again you can't win without the Crucible. Calling the Crucible a wash would result in the destruction of the fleet and the continuation of the cycle.

Giving you the option to just fight it out would be akin to giving you a game over screen.




You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


Yea, because Shep is so full of options isn't he, losing a war on all fronts, slowly die'ing on the citadel. You're right he should have just refused and carried on fighting....


Darn Skippy Peanut Butter. Victory the Catalyst's way either meant the possibility of the cycle continuing via the blue rasberry ending, the willful desctruction of a sentient species on the hope that the Crucible worked, or the sacrifice of both organic and synthetic life to create something that is disturbingly Reaper like. Better to go out fighting and at least die on your own terms than live under someone elses. That's freedom, that's self determination. Choosing your path, not the path someone sets before you.


Ok, maybe they should have had an option to do nothing, that is basicly a let the Reapers win and carry on their cycles option. Even the destruction option is beeter than that simply because it at least get rid of the Reapers for futrure generations / races.


You hear that sound? That's the point shooting by overhead. 

By not allowing the player to actually influence the final outcome in any way other than selecting one of three flavors of candy, they're taking a step back from Mass Effect 2, where the succesful (or not) conclusion of the Suicide Mission is in the player's hands. Everything you did in ME2 increased your chances of not only succeeding, but critically succeeding. By divorcing player choices from the outcome except in the afformentioned picking a candy option, the game is stepping back from what they've already shown they can do in a previous installment, but telling you that your decisions do not matter in the slightest, and you're defending that.

#187
LittleDeadGirl

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I still don't understand how life is preserved? All the reapers appear identical and act in a uniform indoctrinated fashion. What is preserved about the species? Why does the space child even allow you to change anything. You didn't climb up to its lair of doom. It lifted you up there on purpose. Or does your bloody half unconscious body activate the space magic?

#188
LucidStrike

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Synthetics are a potential threat to organic life? ORGANIC species are potential threats to other organic species. Hell, every individual that is not you is a potential threat to you, and you are a potential threat to them. You don't opt for pre-emptive elimination. You broker peace. Duh.

One question robo-apocalypse people never answer adequately: What would motivate the AIs to attack organics? Simple question. None have every answered it. That's because there is no impetus, no reason that would lead the AIs to attack, other than SELF-DEFENSE. Just don't attack them.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 16 mars 2012 - 01:12 .


#189
111987

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LTBK wrote...

111987 wrote...

So what if Shepard argues with the Catalyst? It's not like Shepard would be able to make the Catalyst give him more options. How do you know the Catalyst isn't bound by the Crucible to only have certain options available? The Crucible is shown to have three major effects, so we have to assume that's all it's capable of. Further argument and debate wouldn't suddenly unlock new features of the Crucible.

It could do, in fact. Or at least you could try to, instead of just believing what the guy controlling the reapers is telling you. Just use your comm link (it was still working) and try to get EDI and the geth to use all their combined processing power to analyze the current situation and/or link with the crucible (that your own engineers made and EVEN improved upon, even if they didn't know what was it for because it was lacking the catalyst) in order to try to give you a better solution, or at least find the truth in the Catalyst's words.


EDI and the Geth were a bit busy fighting the Reapers, were they not? And the Geth are independent minds now; they can't form a collective anymore without the proper hardware.

Also, that would have been at odds with the mood of that scene. Can you imagine how much more ridiculous the scene would have been if Shepard just sat on the floor next to the Starchild, waiting for Edi and the Geth to finish their analysis?

#190
defenestrated

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desert116 wrote...

Here's a question; why don't the Reapers just destroy the offending synthetics if they want to protect organic life, instead of, you know, destroying organic life.

Unless someone has a better explanation, I'm assuming they wipe out the synthetics after they're done with the advanced organics. IIRC, there is no evidence the synthetics leave with the Reapers and they certainly don't stick around for the next cycle.

#191
Hiredguns23

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111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.



They got along for like a week...would they have peacefully co-existed for years? Decades? Centuries? Unknown. But the Reapers have been around billions of years and have seen the cycle repeat itself over and over again. I'm inclined to believe they know more about it then we do.

Thats like say well because I been around the block for while I know what the neighbors that moved in 30 mins ago are going to be like.


Actually, that analogy doesn't work at all...think about it.

The analogy would apply if you had lived in the same house for billions of years, and everyone that ever moved into the house next door acted the same way.

That is exactly perfect analogy because you don't know what that neighbor is going to do when they move in. Like each race that comes up does something different. You're making an assumption that each race will do the samething each and everytime when they reach certain point in tech. growth. Thing of that is each race has its own way of doing things. Like how the Protheans comunacated with beacons where as the current races uses combueys. All of this is based on one assumption. Each race will create a race of robots that will take over galaxy and kill organics. Seems like to me the Geth and Quarains are disproving this fact.

Modifié par Hiredguns23, 16 mars 2012 - 01:13 .


#192
AdeptusAstartes

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111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You would potentially doom everyone in the galaxy on the hope that the Catalyst isn't lying or this isn't what the Reapers wanted all along?


The galaxy is doomed if you don't use the Crucible. Just by that fact alone, using the Crucible is a viable option.


It's not a fact. It's conjecture from people who have no idea how the Crucible works or even what it does. As many times as Hackett says they can't beat the Reapers conventionally he also says they have no clue what the thing will do. You're making a baseless claim that's disproven by dialogue, which is the same way you're trying to prove that the Reapers can't be defeated any other way. 

#193
111987

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LittleDeadGirl wrote...

I still don't understand how life is preserved? All the reapers appear identical and act in a uniform indoctrinated fashion. What is preserved about the species? Why does the space child even allow you to change anything. You didn't climb up to its lair of doom. It lifted you up there on purpose. Or does your bloody half unconscious body activate the space magic?


The Reapers shell follow a similar, efficient pattern. The core of the Reaper takes the form of the species used to create it. As to why they all follow the same goals; possibly because they are all controlled by a single intelligence (Catalyst, Harbinger), or simply by nature of becoming a Reaper, you agree with their doctrine.

#194
TJX2045

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I fail to see how this paradox is right IMO. :blink:

#195
111987

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AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You would potentially doom everyone in the galaxy on the hope that the Catalyst isn't lying or this isn't what the Reapers wanted all along?


The galaxy is doomed if you don't use the Crucible. Just by that fact alone, using the Crucible is a viable option.


It's not a fact. It's conjecture from people who have no idea how the Crucible works or even what it does. As many times as Hackett says they can't beat the Reapers conventionally he also says they have no clue what the thing will do. You're making a baseless claim that's disproven by dialogue, which is the same way you're trying to prove that the Reapers can't be defeated any other way. 


It is a fact. They know they can't beat the Reapers conevtnionally. The Crucible is the only other option that presents itself. Thus, it does not matter that they don't know what the Crucible will do. Any other option results in defeat.

The proof that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally is that the Reapers are still around after billions of years.

#196
Madecologist

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Instead of looking at it as being right or wrong or not making sense. I like to look at it as he is lying to you.

The cycle they are actually protecting is themselves. They sell it with the whole "we are your salvation and destruction" and that in the long run life continues and you gain immortality as a giant scuttlefish.

But they are sastaning life so they have a crop to reap every 50 000 years, they kill only advanced life for this reason but also to make sure no said advance life gets far enough to be an actual thread. The elevate you to create more versions of themselves (ie... reproduction and growth).

It is not that the singularity they predict is true or not, but that they believe it is and their method really only benefits them. The fact they let less advanced life live is just so they can claim they are doing it for a cause and have future crops to reap.

#197
OtaconUCF

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111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Hiredguns23 wrote...

Oh I forgot that the part where the star child said that the created will rebel againts the creators. This contrdicts what star child cause in the end they got along. Star Child saids things goes this way. Geth and Quarians went the other way.



They got along for like a week...would they have peacefully co-existed for years? Decades? Centuries? Unknown. But the Reapers have been around billions of years and have seen the cycle repeat itself over and over again. I'm inclined to believe they know more about it then we do.

Thats like say well because I been around the block for while I know what the neighbors that moved in 30 mins ago are going to be like.


Actually, that analogy doesn't work at all...think about it.

The analogy would apply if you had lived in the same house for billions of years, and everyone that ever moved into the house next door acted the same way.


So you agree with him then?

And who is to say they couldn't have written other viable options that'd work, under the assumption that conventional victory is impossible?

"The Citadel is part of me."
"Well, ok Reaper overlord, we'll just blow you to hell instead of submitting to your choices. Sounds like a damn better option than following down the foot steps of Saren or the Illusive Man, or dooming an entire friendly, sentient species(if they're still around)."

Still desperate, sure, but if the Citadel is really the heart of the Reapers, why couldn't this have been a viable option upon realizing that the Citadel was a trap in more ways than just being a mass relay to dark space? And hell, that's just off the top of my head sitting here, Bioware had years to come up with possible outcomes here. And all we get is the 'choice' of submitting to what the leader of the Reapers tells us are our only options.

#198
111987

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Hiredguns23 wrote...

That is exactly perfect analogy because you don't know what that neighbor is going to do when they move in. Like each race that comes up does something different. You're making an assumption that each race will do the samething each and everytime when they reach certain point in tech. growth. Thing of that is each race has its own way of doing things. Like how the Protheans comunacated with beacons where as the current races uses combueys. All of this is based on one assumption. Each race will create a race of robots that will take over galaxy and kill organics. Seems like to me the Geth and Quarains are disproving this fact.


No, the analogy doesn't work. Let's stop using the analogy and actually discuss the real situation.

The Reapers have been around billions of years. In every cycle, for billions of years, synthetics have warred against organics. Lo and behold, in this cycle, synthetics have warred against organics. The fact that the Quarians and Geth have cooperated for a week, at best, does not disprove the fact that for billions of years, the only outcome of coexistence between organics and synthetics is conflict.

#199
savionen

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111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdeptusAstartes wrote...

You're being told it's the only way by people who have no idea what it does. That's like a caveman telling you how your iPhone works.

Or me trusting my mother when she calls me to ask why her web browser is filled with toolbars but insists she didn't install anything.


The very fact that everyone is willing to buy into the Crucible, despite having no knowledge about how it works, shows just how foolish a conventional battle would be. The fact that military officers are willing to risk everything on a gamble shows how they know they can't win conventionally.


Of course they can't win if they keep telling themselves they can't win, they have weapons that can damage and destroy Reapers. Not being able to win conventionally doesn't mean there is no hope for victory without some magical artifact that may or may not work. 


Wait, so now you're saying they can win if they just believe in themselves? War doesn't work that way. Organics are simply outclassed against the Reapers.

If you can't win conventionally, and you can't win without the Crucible...what other options exist?


The problem is that both of the encounters with Reapers it shows they're relatively easy to take out. Ontop of that, mass effect fields (the things that make them impossible to kill in space) don't work while on land.

Everything, in my game atleast, pointed to my massive army being able to take the Reapers. Even in Mass Effect 1 they show that with the right tactics a Reaper can be destroyed. The Collector Base even used Reaper technology, and after you get the Thanix cannons you just tear them up.

The Reaper army is supposedly infinite in numbers, but you never really see more than a dozen at once, and regardless of how big your fleet is, in the game, it shows this pitiful little alliance fleet.

#200
SteveGarbage

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I definitely can't argue with the reasoning of the Reaper invasion. Having the Reapers there to keep advanced civilizations from creating a synthetic lifeform that will destroy ALL life makes sense to me. The Reapers just kill the advanced races and leave primitive life alone.

It's the main reason why I felt I couldn't chose the Destroy option. Although EDI is great and the Geth can be reconciled, that doesn't mean that synthetics aren't a threat. As long as organic life can create synthetic life, that threat is there.

That's why I went Synthesis.