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[nennafir]

T0rin3 wrote...

rogermao wrote...

 ok, just need some clarification, WITH the dex hotfix, should I go the cunning longbow route or dex shortbow

Cunning longbow.

Go cunning longbow if you want all of the cunning-ish rogue-like skills.  But a pure dex-based-and-nothing-else with dex hotfix and shortbow will completely own the cunning longbow combat-wise.  You won't have the low attack rating problem either.  The only disadvantage with shortbows is their itemization.

Modifié par nennafir, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:34 .

[tkaz85]

So if I don't want to install the dex hotfix (since somebody already released a mod that fixes the dagger problem without mucking around with bows), I should go with Longbows and Lethality?

[qthulu]

I have a question for more experienced players.
Seems to me the main reason for high cunning would be the bard song in this build.
I usually have Leliana in my group and plan to make her and my PC an archer too. In that case Leliana could go for high cunning(with lethality) using longbows, opening chest and using her bardsong, and my PC could go all dex using shortbows ignoring cunning and using badsongs alltogether and my PC wouldnt need lethality either because shortbows use only dex right?. If I understand correctly this setup would work fine. Any toughts? (btw I have the dex fix)

Modifié par qthulu, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:03 .

[Dopeslap]

Broken Archery / Bard Build

Recommended Race:
Human: Rolling a Human Is the best choice since you don't need to waste your attributes on strength.

Attributes:

Keep in mind that during the Circle Tower arch, you ill receive perimiate attribute boosts, they are

Strength +4
Dexterity +4
Willpower +4
Cunning +5
Constitution +2
Magic +2

With those boosts implemented your final attributes should look like this

At level 1

Strength.....16
Dexterity....15
Willpower....12
Magic........11
Cunning......15
Constitution.10


At level 25 with circle tower boosts.

Strength.....19 No points
Dexterity.....30 or 30 +4
Willpower....16 No points
magic........13 no points
Cunning......78 or 73 +5
Constitition.12 no points

Talents:

Lethality: Uses your cunning score in place of your strength for damage!

Master Stealth: A must when facing bosses and other high level foes.

Daft Hands: With 60+ cunning you will be able to open every chest in the game.

Master Archer: It is an archry build after all.

Arrow of Slaying: Against light armored foes alike you will be able to score a three digit critical easyly.

Bard: Song of Courage / Gives nice bonuses attack, damage, and critical chance's and its based on your kick ass high cunning score.

Ranger: Master Ranger / Well a little extra DPS would not hurt anyone except the one your pummeling.

or Duelist: Grabbing Dueling is a good idea to boost your attack modifier.


Keep in mind that books can be found that grant you talent points to spend, I normally spend these points on the Device and stealth trees.

Skills:

Master Combat Training
Improved Coercion: With 70+ cunning you will pass all coercion checks.
Master Trap-Making
Expert Poison Making


Q and A

Q. Why only 34 Dex?
A. Any thing over 30 is a waste, 34 is needed for Dragonthorn bows and you will receive equipment that will boost your dex attribute.

Q. Why crazy high cunning and only 19 strength?
A. Well with the talent "Lethality" your cunning score effects your ranged damage, also 20 strength is needed Felon's Coat/Red Jenny's Seekers/Tackmasters Boots. Your strength should be over 22 with equipment.

Q. WTF why only 12 constitution?
A. Well with Master stealth and a properly speced and planned team, you should never die just hit Master stealth when your health is low.

recommended longbows,

Any Dragonthorn Longbow, or keep an eye out for one of these.

Far Song
+2 Damage
Rapid Aim
+3% Ranged Critical Chance
+10 Attack
+10% Critical/Backstab Damage

Falon'Din's Reach
+2 damage
Rapid aim

Hope this helps...

Note: Thanks for all your corrections.

Modifié par Dopeslap, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Dopeslap]

Thanks T0rin3 .

[themaxzero]

Just one thing i'm wondering about Lethality. It allows you use to use you Cunning instead of Strength for damage purposes. But Long Bows only get 50% damage from strength anyway. Not to mention far higher attack and defence. With that build you seem to be looking at 50-60 damage a shot.

If you put all those points into Dex you will end up somewhere around 90-100 Dex. With some gear changes (Felon chest,etc) you maybe end up near 110. With the Dex fix your going to be hitting with a short bow or Crossbow for over a hundred a shot.

Does Bard Song really make up for 50+ damage a shot?

Modifié par themaxzero, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:18 .

[Dopeslap]

themaxzero wrote...


Just one thing i'm wondering about Lethality. It allows you use to use you Cunning instead of Strength for damage purposes. But Long Bows only get 50% damage from strength anyway. Not to mention far higher attack and defence. With that build you seem to be looking at 50-60 damage a shot. Does Bard Song really make up for 50+ damage a shot?

If you put all those points into Dex you will end up somewhere around 90-100 Dex. With some gear changes (Felon chest,etc) you maybe end up near 110. With the Dex fix your going to be hitting with a short bow or Crossbow for over a hundred a shot.

Thats a differnt build, I could go a step further and roll a warrior and and use my strength for crossbows.
Crossbows require strength, and short/longbows recieve the same boosts from strength and cunning.

My brain hurts now.

[Dopeslap]

themaxzero wrote...


Just one thing i'm wondering about Lethality. It allows you use to use you Cunning instead of Strength for damage purposes. But Long Bows only get 50% damage from strength anyway. Not to mention far higher attack and defence. With that build you seem to be looking at 50-60 damage a shot.

If you put all those points into Dex you will end up somewhere around 90-100 Dex. With some gear changes (Felon chest,etc) you maybe end up near 110. With the Dex fix your going to be hitting with a short bow or Crossbow for over a hundred a shot.

Does Bard Song really make up for 50+ damage a shot?

sorry for got to answer one of your questions...

Song of currage recieves direct boosts from cunning, so with 70+ cunning you will be dishing out some serious damage.

[themaxzero]

The dex fix changes that. Crossbows and Shortbows gain 100% of damage from Dex.

Finally figured out now to view scripts and was looking at Song of Courage at its only a +2 damage bonus plus 5% of your Cunning score. With 80 Cunning that comes in at 4 extra damage.

With 100 Dex (which is very doable since Cunning does not need to be raised much if you not doing a Cunning build whereas you still need 34 Dex for Cunning builds). A Short Bow/Crossbow user is getting:

+90 Damage
+45 to Attack
+90 to Defence

That 80 Cunning Longbow user is getting:

+35 to damage
+0 to attack
+0 to defence

Now the Cunning user has  more talents free (due to super high cunning) plus getting a little more effect out of Song of Courage. But do they really make up for the massive Dex bonuses Shortbow/Crossbow users get?

Modifié par themaxzero, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[T0rin3]

nennafir wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

rogermao wrote...

 ok, just need some clarification, WITH the dex hotfix, should I go the cunning longbow route or dex shortbow

Cunning longbow.

Go cunning longbow if you want all of the cunning-ish rogue-like skills.  But a pure dex-based-and-nothing-else with dex hotfix and shortbow will completely own the cunning longbow combat-wise.  You won't have the low attack rating problem either.  The only disadvantage with shortbows is their itemization.

Out of curiosity, what kind of damage did you see with a pure-dex shortbow build that you think completely owns the cunning longbow build combat-wise?

Edit: Actual, in game stuff, not what you think might happen on paper.

Modifié par T0rin3, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[Dopeslap]

I'm gonna have to work on a dex rogue I guess to test this.

[T0rin3]

I'll respec my level 22 cun rogue tonight and do a comparison with the t7 bow from the daelish village. (that you don't unlock until after landsmeet)



There is not a single shortbow with rapid aim on it, that's pitiful.

[SirValeq]

themaxzero wrote...


The dex fix changes that. Crossbows and Shortbows gain 100% of damage from Dex.

Finally figured out now to view scripts and was looking at Song of Courage at its only a +2 damage bonus plus 5% of your Cunning score. With 80 Cunning that comes in at 4 extra damage.

With 100 Dex (which is very doable since Cunning does not need to be raised much if you not doing a Cunning build whereas you still need 34 Dex for Cunning builds). A Short Bow/Crossbow user is getting:

+90 Damage
+45 to Attack
+90 to Defence

That 80 Cunning Longbow user is getting:

+35 to damage
+0 to attack
+0 to defence

Now the Cunning user has  more talents free (due to super high cunning) plus getting a little more effect out of Song of Courage. But do they really make up for the massive Dex bonuses Shortbow/Crossbow users get?

I think one of the factors people are also taking into account are the in-game items, where the unique long-bows generally have some nice bonuses. What would this breakdown look like for a Far Song user and one that has the best shorbow (i don't even know which would that be)?

[T0rin3]

The best shortbow is practically a non-unique one. The only T7 unique shortbow is this:

The Dark Moon
Category: Weapon
Type: Shortbow
Material: Dragonthorn (Tier 7)
Damage: 8.00
Critical Chance: 1.60%
Armor Penetration: 6.60
Strength Modifier: 1.00
Range: 26
Installation: Base Installation
+2 Willpower
+10% Nature Resistance
+1.5 Armor Penetration
Requires: 30 Dexterity

There is this one too, looks decent ... 

Whitewood Bow
Category: Weapon
Type: Shortbow
Material: Whitewood (Tier 4)
Damage: 6.50
Critical Chance: 1.30%
Armor Penetration: 4.80
Strength Modifier: 1.00
Range: 23
Installation: Base Installation
+3 Damage
+5% Ranged Critical Chance
Requires: 18 Dexterity

Modifié par T0rin3, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[themaxzero]

I suspect the reason why Longbows are so good is because of the stat advantages that Cross Bows and Shortbows get.

Strangley enough the best Shortbow I have found is the Scouts Bow you get from the Dalish. It has Rapid Aim and goes all the way to Dragonbone.

Rapid Aim isn't such a huge deal (on Shortbows at least) since they have a Aim time of just 0.2 seconds. The Wardens Crossbow Rapid Fire is actually -0.5 (reducing aim time from 0.8 to 0.3) which puts it on par with non Rapid Aim Longbow.

Modifié par themaxzero, 30 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[T0rin3]

Well, I only mention rapid aim because it was a pretty huge boost to DPS for longbows, I assumed it would be the same for shortbows.

If that is the case, the Whitewood bow is probably the best shortbow.

Edit: Although that is some god forsaken horrible range on it.

Modifié par T0rin3, 30 novembre 2009 - 08:16 .

[themaxzero]

The Whitewood is the final choice once Landsmeet starts because you can grab a Aiming Cap off the Dalish which has Rapid Aim. But Landsmeet is so late.

Shortbow unfortunately has some range issues. I suppose there has to be some balance.

One trick is to Crossbow at range then weapon switch to Shortbow later.

Modifié par themaxzero, 30 novembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[T0rin3]

So do you have any actual experience using max dex + shortbow to give out some real combat #s?

[themaxzero]

I first noticed it on my DW Dex Dagger Rogue. With a Dalish Shortbow and Felon's Coat his damage on the screen is about 46. Depending on the armour he hits for 40 or so.

Not bad for a lvl 11.

I used the Bow when pulling with the tank (better then having him do nothing) and seeing 60 crits with a bow was pretty impressive at that level.

Modifié par themaxzero, 30 novembre 2009 - 08:27 .

[T0rin3]

I assume that to be non-crit damage. Still, not bad, seeing as my level 22 longbow only hits for 60-80 non-crit.

[themaxzero]

Hes on track for 100 Dex by 22 ish (64 at the moment). With a 1.05 stat scale thats an extra 39 damage plus Bow upgrade, plus Bard Song, a couple of extra points from the Rogue levels themselves. Should hit that 100 damage mark.

[T0rin3]

Will need to do some amount of math to figure out average critical hit rates and how that factors into overall damage..



Sucky part about dex bow rogue is that bard and duelist are both pretty much worthless, and ranger and assassin don't do much either.

[themaxzero]

One experiment i'm thinking about is a Warrior Dex Archer.



The Warrior gets an extra +0.2 damage per level (worth about 4-4.5 damage over the course of the adventure). He can also pick up Berserker for +8 damage on Berserk. +1 damage from Bravery and Disengage if you have threat issues. No idea on the other specialization though.

[T0rin3]

Well for me, I'm using this in a solo play through, so no stealth = no go.

[themaxzero]

For solo playthough Dex should be uber. My DW Rogue tanks better then my 'tanks' in my current game, he already has 115 odd defense at 11. With Keen Defense, more Dex, +stat items no reason he shouldn't pass 160-170 defense by the end of the game. At that point the main danger would be spells and auto hit attacks.