229 réponses à ce sujet

[T0rin3]

Well, my defense even on a cunning based rogue is not bad, I think I'm in the 120-130 range. What I could use more of though is armor.

[Dopeslap]

Ya shortbows rock... just did a quick respec with my lvl 20 rogue and shes dishing out some serious damage.

[T0rin3]

Dopeslap wrote...

Ya shortbows rock... just did a quick respec with my lvl 20 rogue and shes dishing out some serious damage.

Serious = ?

[themaxzero]

Armour wise prob the best you could hope for is maybe 30?



Felon's Coat, Helm of Honnleth, Cadesh Stompers, Ancient Elven Gloves, Lifegiver.



Might be doable.

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...


Armour wise prob the best you could hope for is maybe 30?

Felon's Coat, Helm of Honnleth, Cadesh Stompers, Ancient Elven Gloves, Lifegiver.

Might be doable.

I'm using all of that already minus the gloves..

[Dopeslap]

T0rin3 wrote...

Dopeslap wrote...

Ya shortbows rock... just did a quick respec with my lvl 20 rogue and shes dishing out some serious damage.

Serious = ?

Well its not as serious as I thought maybe 10 damage difference... Im looking into crossbows now.

[Invalidcode]

For solo, max dex short bow rogue with dex fix should be pretty good. I tried keen defense + defensive fire and evasion just to see what 190+defense (one could go a lot higher I believe, I was still using Dalish gloves & boots) could do, I don't think any physical attack touched me with those two modes on.

[guiskj]

Everyone is talking about longbows versus shortbows. Right now, without any hotfixes, as far as I understand it, Crossbows are 100% dex and the str requirement is achievable through item bonuses.



How good would a dex build with crossbow be?

[guiskj]

Ok, scrap that. What the hell?? tier 7 crossbows require 30 str??? Are they out of their minds? And there`s like a handful of them, with crappy stats...



Shortbows it is, I guess.

[Dopeslap]

ya so max dexterity and put a little into strength for gear I assume.

[GueRakun]

So dopeslap are u actually changing your mind? maybe change the OP? So to clarify, if I am looking for an Archer that is a team player (ex. Leliana) which build should I use? and if I want to go hardcore playing solo which build do I have to use? Thanks.

[T0rin3]

Well I tried the dex-based shortbow archer out, and it is kind of a wash, at least attack wise. Defense wise it is no contest, the dex build was better. Offensively though, well, I need to crunch the math.

Gain:

Mark of Death
16 base damage
50 stamina (that you had to use to sustain song of courage)
62 defense
12 attack (surprisingly little)

Lose:

9.7% critical chance
11 armor penetration
18 range
10% critical damage

[T0rin3]

What I really need to know now is what is the base attack speed of both longbow and shortbow and how much does rapid aim reduce each by...

But assuming that a longbow with rapid aim is about as fast as a shortbow without (I did some unofficial testing in the game to see how each "felt", and they "felt" about the same) then over 100 attacks, assuming a 100% hit rate, the shortbow build does 16% more damage. If you count in the fact that the added 12 attack will actually make a difference (it will), then that number goes up even further.

The only reason that a longbow build might "come back" is if the disparity between attack speed for rapid aim'd longbow and normal shortbow is large enough to make up the difference, but we're talking about a 10% difference in attack speed at most, AND the shortbow build has the option of just equipping a head item that gives rapid aim to make up any difference at a very minimal loss of damage. (and a gain of even more attack rating)

So, from what I know now, I'd say the dex build is superior. I don't know when you get the Whitewood Bow, but it's the best shortbow. Also, strangely enough, in the game it is actually bigger than the best longbow, go figure.

Also, you lose a significant amount of damage you could gain from Tainted Blade in the dex build, but as a solo character who rarely uses tainted blade, it's not a huge deal. But in a party situation, I'd stipulate that the longbow build would do about the same damage by using tainted blade that the dex build would, at the cost of defense. (and of course a persistent loss of life)

Modifié par T0rin3, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Dude1011]

So I can get this all clear, Shortbows do the most damage with alot of _____ and Longbows do alot of damage with _____? Whice is better really for someone looking to get off some nice strong damaging shots and a farily decent paced dps? Also what does the dex hotfix do? Sorry kinda a noob to archers and such. Thinking about trying one out, so I wanted to get this cleared up. Plus should I get the dex hotfix?

[Dude1011]

So I can get this all clear, Shortbows do the most damage with alot of _____ and Longbows do alot of damage with _____? Whice is better really for someone looking to get off some nice strong damaging shots and a farily decent paced dps? Also what does the dex hotfix do? Sorry kinda a noob to archers and such. Thinking about trying one out, so I wanted to get this cleared up. Plus should I get the dex hotfix?

[Dude1011]

So I can get this all clear, Shortbows do the most damage with alot of _____ and Longbows do alot of damage with _____? Whice is better really for someone looking to get off some nice strong damaging shots and a farily decent paced dps? Also what does the dex hotfix do? Sorry kinda a noob to archers and such. Thinking about trying one out, so I wanted to get this cleared up. Plus should I get the dex hotfix

Modifié par Dude1011, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Dude1011]

opps sorry for the triple post.

[nennafir]

Also, you lose a significant amount of damage you could gain from Tainted Blade in the dex build, but as a solo character who rarely uses tainted blade, it's not a huge deal. But in a party situation, I'd stipulate that the longbow build would do about the same damage by using tainted blade that the dex build would, at the cost of defense. (and of course a persistent loss of life)

Couldn't the dex user also get tainted blade if they wanted to?  Is the scaling by cunning really that important to tainted blade, or is it not that significant?

The dex user, having superior defense, is certainly in a much better position than the cunning user to lose life...

I don't have the DLC and don't want to buy it, so have no idea on the matter.

Modifié par nennafir, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:01 .

[Dopeslap]

GueRakun wrote...

So dopeslap are u actually changing your mind? maybe change the OP? So to clarify, if I am looking for an Archer that is a team player (ex. Leliana) which build should I use? and if I want to go hardcore playing solo which build do I have to use? Thanks.

No I still like the cunning longbow better, it has a higher crit % and better range. I really don't see a large difference in damage so I'm sticking with my Cunning Longbow. I find my makeshift DW Rogue turned archer scoring criticals more often with the Cunning Longbow build. I guess its all up to the you guys what you are looking for in an archery build. I am just glad that Bioware made Archery this universal, I mean Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 or NWN2 playing a Archer sucked. 

Modifié par Dopeslap, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[T0rin3]

My arrow of slaying hits for ~700 on the cunning longbow build and ~1000 on the dex shortbow build. (against lower level enemies)

I find myself liking the dex build more just for that, being able to down a particular enemy sooner at the start of an engagement. The defense you get from dex still does not make you unhittable, even with Defensive Shooting (or whatever it is called) and the 197 or so defense it brings, I still found myself being hit by relatively mediocre enemies.

The one thing about range that the dex build can emphasize on is that the arrow talents have the longest range of any ranged attack, regardless of the bow you shoot them from. So while the longbow has a noticably longer range on normal shots, it has the same range as a shortbow on arrow talents. This lets me spend the start of an encounter at maximum range, using arrow talents, and then when range doesn't matter (enemies charge me) I can rely on my normal shots.

After having spent more time using the dex build now, the Rapid Aim Longbow definitely shoots a little faster than the normal Shortbow. Need to test with the Rapid Aim talent now to see how well it works with a shortbow. (since it doesn't crit much to begin with and has less crit % damage and doesn't worry as much about attack rating)

Modifié par T0rin3, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:09 .

[Dopeslap]

I'm going to roll a Dex Archer sometimes this week, cunning is still needed for several skills like master stealth and device mastery. Ill probably throw two points into cunning early and whip out the tower arch first. Then max out dex and head to soldier hill for a Dragonthorn Shortbow. Ill post my build when its completed for anyone to critique. Whats great about the Cunning Longbow is the less wasted talents when compared to a Dex Shortbow build. Then again Lethality is not needed, which saves 3 talents. As for a specialization, Assassin / Duelist just throwing one point into each should suffice since Keen Defense may be overkill.

[T0rin3]

I actually ended up taking Lethality on the shortbow build just for the crit chance. (and below the belt, I love that skill)

You do end up needing more skill points than the cunning build, but about the same talent points, since you only end up putting 1 into Assassin instead of 3 into Bard. Alternatively you could take Ranger, but then you would forgo Lethality.

I didn't find that Keen Defense was overkill, and I actually like taking Duelist to Pinpoint Strike for the dex build... 15 seconds of hitting for 150 each shot is pretty nice.

Still, the DPS on these builds is pretty weak, something like 66 DPS. So in a party scenario, you are definitely better served with a DW rogue who can hit in the 80-90 DPS range. (without tainted blade) But overall, given the utility and flexibility of the ranged rogue, it is definitely not a "bad" addition to a group. The cunning build is definitely more beneficial in a party scenario, longer average range, group buffs. I can only imagine how damage 2 archers would put out, 1 cunning longbow (Leliana) and 1 dex shortbow (PC), both with Song of Courage running on them.

Modifié par T0rin3, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:28 .

[capmanx]

Thanks guys for this in depth analysis of archery.
Somebody had an important point here. Math isn't everything, i.e. character progress during the game is an important factor. Revisiting places just because you couldn't open those chests doesn't help the gameplay experience.

I think the game has a general problem if you can equate a certain number of cunning points to an individual skill or talent.

Yes, you can invest in cunning to benefit from not spending talent and skill points. But you need three alone to get lethality...

I haven't tested that bard song, but it seems to favor the cunning build for longbows.

Having three times as many cunning points compared to another attribute just seems so artificial. But I guess everybody can have its own strategy in beating the game.

[Siven80]

I dont play with the experimental hotfix and most of my feel of archery comes from actually playing Leliana while my Tank is playing dodge with the darkspawn.



I went high cunning with leli at first and stayed that way for a long time. She did ok saved a few talents due to the high cunning but overall damage wasnt as high as i liked because of the lack of hit. Using her Longbow.

Since i respecced her to 22cunning and high Dex i do feel she does more damage now due to hitting more. Saved talents due to not getting lethality but those went into device mastery lvl4 due to loss of cunning.



While i could load her out with duelist and song of courage for hit id rather not have both on due to fatigue and high stam costs.



Overall when i do make an archer rogue and for all future Leliana spec i do think im heading 22cunning and rest Dex. Atleast until the patch and i'll see what changes they make the the hotfix. And tbh i do think they will make some changes to it, as it was just experimental.

[T0rin3]

capmanx wrote...

Thanks guys for this in depth analysis of archery.
Somebody had an important point here. Math isn't everything, i.e. character progress during the game is an important factor. Revisiting places just because you couldn't open those chests doesn't help the gameplay experience.

Nope, but we are talking about min-maxed'd builds, not something that is most pleasant for the average playthrough. To get the absolute most out of this, here is what you do. If you prefer to be a little more flexible and put a few more points into persuasion or lockpicking at the cost of slower overall progression, then that is your prerogative. These are just guidelines to follow, not strict rules for playing the game.

I think the game has a general problem if you can equate a certain number of cunning points to an individual skill or talent.

Yes, you can invest in cunning to benefit from not spending talent and skill points. But you need three alone to get lethality...

Nobody said the build was easy, the early levels are somewhat hard and weak, but once you get over the early talent/skill point hump, things even out pretty well.

I haven't tested that bard song, but it seems to favor the cunning build for longbows.

It does, it's almost useless on anything but a cunning build.

Having three times as many cunning points compared to another attribute just seems so artificial. But I guess everybody can have its own strategy in beating the game.

Back to the point that this is about min-maxing and not something that feels "real". The same can be said of the nearly pure magic mage build (aka practically every single one of them) or the pure dex rogue builds. In a realistic sense, they are unrealistic, but in terms of power distribution for your character, they are definitely optimal. It is not a new concept that focusing on a particular direction for a character is most likely to give the best results in almost any RPG game, and that spreading yourself thin, stat/skill wise, is generally always a path to mediocrity. It's your game though, play it how you will, these are just guidelines to play a specific way optimally, which some of us value as more important than anything else.