229 réponses à ce sujet

[T0rin3]

Siven80 wrote...

I went high cunning with leli at first and stayed that way for a long time. She did ok saved a few talents due to the high cunning but overall damage wasnt as high as i liked because of the lack of hit. Using her Longbow.
Since i respecced her to 22cunning and high Dex i do feel she does more damage now due to hitting more. Saved talents due to not getting lethality but those went into device mastery lvl4 due to loss of cunning.

While i could load her out with duelist and song of courage for hit id rather not have both on due to fatigue and high stam costs.

Dueling and Song of Courage are the only things that make the Cun build viable in terms of attack rating. Wtithout it, you have very sub-par hit rates of around 70-80%. If you want high hit-rates without the stamina investment, then the dex build is more your thing, just realize that you lose out on the potential group buffing from Bard in doing so.

Overall when i do make an archer rogue and for all future Leliana spec i do think im heading 22cunning and rest Dex. Atleast until the patch and i'll see what changes they make the the hotfix. And tbh i do think they will make some changes to it, as it was just experimental.

Well, the change to how bows get their damage bonus was not experimental, this was a fix, not a test patch. At launch they were not working how they were supposed to work in that respect, but I think the non-damage tweaks to archery (the increase in crit chance, the increase in range, the increase in stat modifiers, etc.) will probably end up receiving a tweak when the patch with the official archery fix comes.

[Siven80]

Something ive wondered about and have seen no proof on.



Flanking and archers. Do we get the flank attack bonus? i know we dont get backstabs but reading the missing manual i see no reason why we wont get the flank attack bonus.

I always get my rogue archer behind the enemy, or rotate my tank around so mobs back is facing my group (second nature after so much wow tanking) and if Archers gain that bonus, it is a significant increase of Attack.



I assume the flank bonus everyone gets whether its ranged or melee. Anyone know about this?

[Hizoka003]

i see alot of people saying they use Helm of Honnolith... if you only have 19 STR how do you put on the 22str helm?




and with thoes starting stats that means your first 5 points were put inot STR at charater creation to bring it up to 15 with a human rogue so that you can get to the 19 in the fade

Modifié par Hizoka003, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[Dopeslap]

Hizoka003 wrote...

i see alot of people saying they use Helm of Honnolith... if you only have 19 STR how do you put on the 22str helm?
and with thoes starting stats that means your first 5 points were put inot STR at charater creation to bring it up to 15 with a human rogue so that you can get to the 19 in the fade

Well when I roll a new rogue, I invest the first 5 points into strength. After the mage tower arch ( usually my first stop after lothering )  my strength is 19. We are talking about optimization, so a 19 base with gear puts your strength at or beyond the 22 mark needed for the good boots and helm.

[Dopeslap]

Dopeslap wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

i see alot of people saying they use Helm of Honnolith... if you only have 19 STR how do you put on the 22str helm?
and with thoes starting stats that means your first 5 points were put inot STR at charater creation to bring it up to 15 with a human rogue so that you can get to the 19 in the fade

Well when I roll a new rogue, I invest the first 5 points into strength. After the mage tower arch ( usually my first stop after lothering )  my strength is 19. We are talking about optimization, so a 19 base with gear puts your strength at or beyond the 22 mark needed for the good boots and helm.

Note: The rings, Harvest Festival and the Ring of the Warrior jump your strength to 23.

[Hizoka003]

i completely forgot about the ring you get when you go to get shale... i guess i will hit up circle then go get shale this time instead of teh other way around like normal











just started a cunning archer...... i love archers in RPGs but DAO archers always felt lack luster

[Dopeslap]

Hizoka003 wrote...

i completely forgot about the ring you get when you go to get shale... i guess i will hit up circle then go get shale this time instead of teh other way around like normal





just started a cunning archer...... i love archers in RPGs but DAO archers always felt lack luster

I hated NWN and NWN2 Archery system.

[Hizoka003]

Dopeslap wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

i completely forgot about the ring you get when you go to get shale... i guess i will hit up circle then go get shale this time instead of teh other way around like normal





just started a cunning archer...... i love archers in RPGs but DAO archers always felt lack luster

I hated NWN and NWN2 Archery system.

it was DnD archery, which once used to is pretty darn good if you build your charater right

[Hizoka003]

when you are a PC archer how do you keep your goon squad from running back to you mid encounter.... i am finding already that after my team attacks their respective targets instead of finding a new on on their own they run back to me

[Siven80]

Hmm, done some playing around tonight with respec mod and hotfix, and while song of courage is great for an archer, it doesnt give a massive boost really.



Oh its still well worth using but really i found 40 cunning to be an ideal point to stop at, the rest to go into dex.

The difference between an 18str/30dex/rest in Cunning and an 18str/40Cunning/rest in dex was damage wise, cunning ahead by no more than 1.1 - 1.8dmg. Crit was around 3% more But attack was over 13 points down from a rest in dex build after 40 cunning.

I went 40 Cunning so i stopped at lvl3 lockpicking.



And after playing that for a while i liked it. The loss of 2dmg MAX is nothing compared to the increased Hit %. 40 cunning is still plenty to boost the Song and you get a whole lot more attack/hit from the points in Dex rather than boosting cunning after.



So maybe, just maybe its best to almost balance the stats.

[Hizoka003]

ok i got my cunning archer working.... i am in the fade at level 9 but i keep like a pansy... on both my DW and 2h warriors i could completely own anything in there with ease on my archer its taking 4-5 shots to drop just one mob...

[Sebastian Nbarr]

Why restrict yourself to a shortbow with a dex build?  Don't longbows use a 50-50 split with strength for the damage bonus?  If you take Lethality would that not be 50-50 dex and cunning?  Thus your damage bonus would be the same whether you pump points into dex or cunning.  Or am I missing something here?

It seems that a build with, say, 70 dex and 30 cunning would yield the same damage bonus as a build with 30 dex and 70 cunning but the dex heavy build would get higher attack and defense ratings.  The differences seem to come only in other areas of gameplay.  For example if you want to be a bard go the cunning route but if you want to be a ranger go dex to get your attack bonus.

I guess it just boils down to needing Lethality for longbows?  With shortbows you can save those three talents and put them in lockpicking/stealth instead?  Of course if your strength is not much lower than your cunning then Lethality may not be worth it anyway...

So without Lethality your damage bonus with longbows would be just a little bit lower than a pure cunning build but your attack rating would be through the roof (dex bonus to attack plus attack bonus from best longbows).  If you went with the duelist specialization you could have the additional attack bonus from dueling as well.

Granted, if I understand the calculations (no guarantee there!) shortbows might yield slightly higher damage but you would lose out on range and other bonuses from the best longbows.

Sorry if I seem to be mixing apples and oranges here comparing dex versus cunning and long versus short but there seem to be three viable archer specs (cunning/longbow, dex/longbow and dex/shortbow) and I haven't seen any discussion of the dex/longbow approach.  Maybe it is not ideal from a min/max approach but could be better from both a roleplaying and pure satisfaction perspective...

I'm certainly no expert on game mechanics so please jump in (not on!) with any corrections.  By the way, I have played part-way through the game (Circle, Redcliffe/Denerim, Brecilian Forest) with a team consisting of two archers (pc and Leliana), a mage (Morrigan) and Alistair as a tank.  Alistair uses a bow until enemies enter melee range but quite often does not get to unsheath his sword since the foes die before getting close!  Two Arrows of Slaying, two Scattershots, two Critical Shots for shattering frozen enemies, what else could you ask for?

[T0rin3]

Sebastian Nbarr wrote...

Why restrict yourself to a shortbow with a dex build?  Don't longbows use a 50-50 split with strength for the damage bonus?  If you take Lethality would that not be 50-50 dex and cunning?  Thus your damage bonus would be the same whether you pump points into dex or cunning.  Or am I missing something here?

You would have to divide your stats up 50-50 as well to get the same bonus, and in doing so, you defeat the purpose of both builds. The purpose of going full out dex is for the attack rating and defense, at the sacrifice of saving talent and skill points that could have been replaced by cunning, as well as making bard a viable specialization. If you go full out dex and equip a longbow and resort to the 50-50 split, your damage goes down by some 30 points per hit.

Look at it like this... you have 100 dex and 22 cunning.

With a longbow, that is +50 damage from dex and +11 damage from cunning.

With a shortbow, that is +100 damage from dex.

See the problem?

It seems that a build with, say, 70 dex and 30 cunning would yield the same damage bonus as a build with 30 dex and 70 cunning but the dex heavy build would get higher attack and defense ratings.  The differences seem to come only in other areas of gameplay.  For example if you want to be a bard go the cunning route but if you want to be a ranger go dex to get your attack bonus.

With a longbow, the base damage would be the same. But if you go 70 dex 30 cunning, song of courage is no longer a viable source of damage/attack increase. Also, one of the big reasons to focus on cunning is to save points that you would otherwise have to put into lockpicking and coercion. Tainted Blade works on Cunning. Song of Courage works on cunning. If you simply just do the minimum amount of cunning needed for talents and skills (22), you don't have enough cunning to make Bard worth taking. That alone makes longbow a bad choice of weapons, and it needs the boosts from Song of Courage to try to keep up in damage with the shortbow on a dex build.

I guess it just boils down to needing Lethality for longbows?  With shortbows you can save those three talents and put them in lockpicking/stealth instead?  Of course if your strength is not much lower than your cunning then Lethality may not be worth it anyway...

More or less, yes. You still want Lethality on the dex/shortbow build for it's increase to crit %.

So without Lethality your damage bonus with longbows would be just a little bit lower than a pure cunning build but your attack rating would be through the roof (dex bonus to attack plus attack bonus from best longbows).  If you went with the duelist specialization you could have the additional attack bonus from dueling as well.

If you mean as a dex build with longbow and no lethality, yes it would be lower than a pure cunning build with lethality, but more importantly, would be very significantly lower than a shortbow. And dexterity does not increase attack rating all that much. The attack difference between a Bard/Duelist Cunning archer with 90 cunning and a Assassin/Duelist dexterity archer with 90 dexterity is like 12 points, a lot less than what you'd think to expect.

Granted, if I understand the calculations (no guarantee there!) shortbows might yield slightly higher damage but you would lose out on range and other bonuses from the best longbows.

It's actually somewhat significant. I calculated it as a 27% increase in DPS using a shortbow with the dex build.

Sorry if I seem to be mixing apples and oranges here comparing dex versus cunning and long versus short but there seem to be three viable archer specs (cunning/longbow, dex/longbow and dex/shortbow) and I haven't seen any discussion of the dex/longbow approach.  Maybe it is not ideal from a min/max approach but could be better from both a roleplaying and pure satisfaction perspective...

Dex/longbow is pointless, there is no reason to give up 25-30 damage per shot (on average, including bonus to crits from the best longbow) just for some added range. To me, there are only 2 viable builds: cunning/longbow and dexterity/shortbow. Everything else is subpar in comparison.

[Siven80]

LongBow, dex hotfix, lethality.
Song of Courage: gains 3 attack (+ 10% of cunning modifier ) , 2 Damage(+5% cunning modifier), Crit chance 3% (+10% cunning modifier).

So remember a modifer is the stat -10.
So 70 cunning Song of Courage would give you 9 Attack, 5 Damage and 9% Crit.
40 Cunning would give you 6 Attack, 3.5 Damage and 6%Crit.

IMO 30 cunning differnce isnt a huge increase, whereas putting those 30 into Dex will give an extra 15 attack (0.5attack per point) while only losing 1.5 damage from the song only, 3% crit from the song and ArPen fom cunning loss.

Depends what you want to gain really. Me, i will be going dex after so much Cunning.

Found the bonuses from the tooltip project http://social.biowar...t/1117/#details . They seem acurate looking at numbers ingame.

--

The topic about the extra cunning saving you skill and talent points, well in theory yes but are you going to leave persuasion and lockpicking at lvl1 till the end game when you have enough cunning to open chests etc and backtrack everywhere to open them?

In practise id rather level the skills and talents up so i can pick locks and pass persuasion checks when i want too. Again pesonal preference tbh.

Modifié par Siven80, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[Solwen_Polyhymnia]

I have a question for people who use the short bow dex build, what weapon did you use? I haven't found any short bow that is anywhere near the quality of long bow or near the quality of any other weapon in this game. Is there a mod that give you a decent but not overpowering end game short bow? I don't want one with +10 stat or anything just something comparable to Starfang sword or Farsong bow.

[back pain]

If one were to split there stats evenly between dex and cun using a long bow, would that not maximize there damage (since longbow damage uses 50% from cun and 50% from dex)?

Edit: looks like my question has already been answered

Modifié par back pain, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[Dopeslap]

Solwen_Polyhymnia wrote...

I have a question for people who use the short bow dex build, what weapon did you use? I haven't found any short bow that is anywhere near the quality of long bow or near the quality of any other weapon in this game. Is there a mod that give you a decent but not overpowering end game short bow? I don't want one with +10 stat or anything just something comparable to Starfang sword or Farsong bow.

Dragonthorn shortbow, no 3rd party mod required.

[Dopeslap]

T0rin3 wrote...

Sebastian Nbarr wrote...

Why restrict yourself to a shortbow with a dex build?  Don't longbows use a 50-50 split with strength for the damage bonus?  If you take Lethality would that not be 50-50 dex and cunning?  Thus your damage bonus would be the same whether you pump points into dex or cunning.  Or am I missing something here?

You would have to divide your stats up 50-50 as well to get the same bonus, and in doing so, you defeat the purpose of both builds. The purpose of going full out dex is for the attack rating and defense, at the sacrifice of saving talent and skill points that could have been replaced by cunning, as well as making bard a viable specialization. If you go full out dex and equip a longbow and resort to the 50-50 split, your damage goes down by some 30 points per hit.

Look at it like this... you have 100 dex and 22 cunning.

With a longbow, that is +50 damage from dex and +11 damage from cunning.

With a shortbow, that is +100 damage from dex.

See the problem?

It seems that a build with, say, 70 dex and 30 cunning would yield the same damage bonus as a build with 30 dex and 70 cunning but the dex heavy build would get higher attack and defense ratings.  The differences seem to come only in other areas of gameplay.  For example if you want to be a bard go the cunning route but if you want to be a ranger go dex to get your attack bonus.

With a longbow, the base damage would be the same. But if you go 70 dex 30 cunning, song of courage is no longer a viable source of damage/attack increase. Also, one of the big reasons to focus on cunning is to save points that you would otherwise have to put into lockpicking and coercion. Tainted Blade works on Cunning. Song of Courage works on cunning. If you simply just do the minimum amount of cunning needed for talents and skills (22), you don't have enough cunning to make Bard worth taking. That alone makes longbow a bad choice of weapons, and it needs the boosts from Song of Courage to try to keep up in damage with the shortbow on a dex build.

I guess it just boils down to needing Lethality for longbows?  With shortbows you can save those three talents and put them in lockpicking/stealth instead?  Of course if your strength is not much lower than your cunning then Lethality may not be worth it anyway...

More or less, yes. You still want Lethality on the dex/shortbow build for it's increase to crit %.

So without Lethality your damage bonus with longbows would be just a little bit lower than a pure cunning build but your attack rating would be through the roof (dex bonus to attack plus attack bonus from best longbows).  If you went with the duelist specialization you could have the additional attack bonus from dueling as well.

If you mean as a dex build with longbow and no lethality, yes it would be lower than a pure cunning build with lethality, but more importantly, would be very significantly lower than a shortbow. And dexterity does not increase attack rating all that much. The attack difference between a Bard/Duelist Cunning archer with 90 cunning and a Assassin/Duelist dexterity archer with 90 dexterity is like 12 points, a lot less than what you'd think to expect.

Granted, if I understand the calculations (no guarantee there!) shortbows might yield slightly higher damage but you would lose out on range and other bonuses from the best longbows.

It's actually somewhat significant. I calculated it as a 27% increase in DPS using a shortbow with the dex build.

Sorry if I seem to be mixing apples and oranges here comparing dex versus cunning and long versus short but there seem to be three viable archer specs (cunning/longbow, dex/longbow and dex/shortbow) and I haven't seen any discussion of the dex/longbow approach.  Maybe it is not ideal from a min/max approach but could be better from both a roleplaying and pure satisfaction perspective...

Dex/longbow is pointless, there is no reason to give up 25-30 damage per shot (on average, including bonus to crits from the best longbow) just for some added range. To me, there are only 2 viable builds: cunning/longbow and dexterity/shortbow. Everything else is subpar in comparison.

WOW! Well said... This is the Hows and Whys of Archery, Im busting out the notebook.

[Nihaola]

so if i play on a consule, i cant get the dex hotfix , so does that mean i should use the cunning/longbow ?

[Twenynge]

Siven80 wrote...

Something ive wondered about and have seen no proof on.

Flanking and archers. Do we get the flank attack bonus? i know we dont get backstabs but reading the missing manual i see no reason why we wont get the flank attack bonus.
I always get my rogue archer behind the enemy, or rotate my tank around so mobs back is facing my group (second nature after so much wow tanking) and if Archers gain that bonus, it is a significant increase of Attack.

I assume the flank bonus everyone gets whether its ranged or melee. Anyone know about this?

The only things checked for in the flanking script located in combat_h.nss are character class and position, so yes, bows get the full flanking attack bonus as well as the critical bonus.

[T0rin3]

Solwen_Polyhymnia wrote...

I have a question for people who use the short bow dex build, what weapon did you use? I haven't found any short bow that is anywhere near the quality of long bow or near the quality of any other weapon in this game. Is there a mod that give you a decent but not overpowering end game short bow? I don't want one with +10 stat or anything just something comparable to Starfang sword or Farsong bow.

There is nothing comparable to the best weapons in the game. (Starfang, Farsong)

I use the Whitewood Bow, it rocks.

[Hizoka003]

T0rin3 wrote...

Solwen_Polyhymnia wrote...

I have a question for people who use the short bow dex build, what weapon did you use? I haven't found any short bow that is anywhere near the quality of long bow or near the quality of any other weapon in this game. Is there a mod that give you a decent but not overpowering end game short bow? I don't want one with +10 stat or anything just something comparable to Starfang sword or Farsong bow.

There is nothing comparable to the best weapons in the game. (Starfang, Farsong)

I use the Whitewood Bow, it rocks.

the maul that Gorim sells in dinerium > starfang when it comes to 2h weapons

[Dopeslap]

Dexterity Shortbow

Recommended Race:
Human: Rolling a Human Is the best choice since you don't need to waste your attributes on strength.

Attributes:

Keep in mind that during the Circle Tower arch, you will receive attribute boosts, they are

+4 Strength
+4 Dexterity
+4 Willpower
+2 Magic
+5 Cunning
+2 Constitution

At level 1
Throw four points into strength and 1 into dexterity when you roll your new Archer.

15 Strength
16 Dexterity
12 Willpower
11 Magic
15 Cunning
10 Constitution

At level 25 base attributes with no equipment should look like this.

19 Strength
89 Dexterity
16 Willpower
13 Magic
22 Cunning
12 Constitution

Talents:
Master Archery
Arrow of Slaying
Master Stealth
Device Mastery
Lethality

Specialization Talents:
Assassin / Mark of Death
Duelist / Pinpoint Strike note: In order to use Pinpoint strike you need to equip a melee weapon first then switch to your bows.

Skills:
Master Combat Training
Master poison-Making
Master Trap-Making
Master Coercion

Note: You will need a "Tome of Skill and Sundry" in order to complete this build.

Required Equipment:
Key to the city
Harvest Festival Ring or Ring of the Warrior.
Dragonthorn Shortbow

Modifié par Dopeslap, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:04 .

[guiskj]

Could anyone tell me where I can get the whitewood bow?

[Hulk Hsieh]

T0rin3 wrote...
Look at it like this... you have 100 dex and 22 cunning.

With a longbow, that is +50 damage from dex and +11 damage from cunning.

With a shortbow, that is +100 damage from dex.

See the problem?

This make me think the "Shortbow gets 100% from dex" change is a bad idea.
It makes archer a "one attribute" build. Dex takes care of Attack/DEF/Damage and you don't need anything else.