831 réponses à ce sujet

[Glondor]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Agreed. But I still think that Shepard's death should have been a possible outcome.

Ending 1. The Reapers win and everyone dies.
Ending 2. The Reapers are destroyed and Shepard dies.
Ending 3. The Reapers are destroyed and everyone lives.

Yeah I agree, I was hoping we'd have a range of possible outcomes for Shepard and crew just like ME2. That Shepard could die makes sense; that s/he had to die not so much.

Don't know if I'd want your first option though, playing for 30 hours only to get an equivalent ending to critical mission failue... no thanks. If I finish the game, I should get the resolution that was promised from the start - that Shepard would defeat the Reapers. At what cost though depends on my choices throughout the game (again ala ME2).

[Shalewind]

Holy S***. Five star post my good sir.

[Eternalsteelfan]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Glondor wrote...

Great, great post OP. I particularly like your analysis of why Mordin is a tragic hero and why Shepard is not.

Agreed. But I still think that Shepard's death should have been a possible outcome.

Ending 1. The Reapers win and everyone dies.
Ending 2. The Reapers are destroyed and Shepard dies.
Ending 3. The Reapers are destroyed and everyone lives.

I'm in agreement with you, my point was only that the possibility of Shepherd surviving should not be dismissed so readily by those like the death only proponents. 

Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 16 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Glondor wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Agreed. But I still think that Shepard's death should have been a possible outcome.

Ending 1. The Reapers win and everyone dies.
Ending 2. The Reapers are destroyed and Shepard dies.
Ending 3. The Reapers are destroyed and everyone lives.

Yeah I agree, I was hoping we'd have a range of possible outcomes for Shepard and crew just like ME2. That Shepard could die makes sense; that s/he had to die not so much.

Don't know if I'd want your first option though, playing for 30 hours only to get an equivalent ending to critical mission failue... no thanks. If I finish the game, I should get the resolution that was promised from the start - that Shepard would defeat the Reapers. At what cost though depends on my choices throughout the game (again ala ME2).

Shepard and the entire crew dies ending in ME2 was something you had to work hard to do.  No loyalty missions, never talking to your crew, and no ship upgrades.  In essense, be a really crappy commander and play it as a run-n-gun game.  That should have been the "Reaper wins" outcome for ME3.  Sloppy commander loses the galaxy.  The reward for Epic Shepard should have been accomplishing what s/he always set out to do: destroy the reapers and save the races of the galaxies.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 16 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[BigBubbaBacon]

Glondor wrote...

Yeah I agree, I was hoping we'd have a range of possible outcomes for Shepard and crew just like ME2. That Shepard could die makes sense; that s/he had to die not so much.

Don't know if I'd want your first option though, playing for 30 hours only to get an equivalent ending to critical mission failue... no thanks. If I finish the game, I should get the resolution that was promised from the start - that Shepard would defeat the Reapers. At what cost though depends on my choices throughout the game (again ala ME2).

I don't know, I actually really, really like the idea of "the cycle will always continue no matter what, but at least we tried."

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I'm in agreement with you, my point was only that the possibility of Shepherd surviving should not be dismissed so readily by those like the death only proponents.  

 

Agreed.

[WvStolzing]

OP: Excellent post!

[Aisynia]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Judging the content Hudson cut based on his feel for "the moment", I'd say his feel for emotional beats and his judgement of what was expendable for story economy was atrocious.

I agree with absolutely everything you said, but you really nailed it here.

Simple fact: They tried to be clever. It came off as hackneyed, pretentious tripe that had narrative holes big enough to fly the Normandy through..

Glad to see how badly their attempts are backfiring.

Also, I too was aghast at the scribbled notes on that page. Not so much that it existed, but that what was clearly a barely defined idea off the top of someone's head had become the final product with no obvious revision between concept and execution.

Modifié par Aisynia, 16 mars 2012 - 03:41 .

[arisian]

As others have said, the OP presents a very insightful analysis. It's nice to see people who actually have some amount of training/experience in writing stories for a visual medium weigh in on this stuff. I can analyze why I didn't like the ending all day long, but the OP actually has the vocabulary to describe it in a way that makes the flaws clear and unabmiguous.

It's easy to counter an argument that states "I didn't like it" or "it was bad," but it's hard to counter a proper analysis of why, according to standard writing theory, this ending had major problems with it.

[Dessalines]

OP is great.

[vrmcardoso]

As an aspiring screenwriter, currently applying for film school, I want to congratulate the OP for the amazing analysis.

Ever since this discussion started people have been arguing why exactly the end sucked so much. "Its the lack of choice", "no, its lack of closure", "are you kidding? it makes no sense!" and all I could think of was: It's just bad storytelling...

So thank you for making things so clear.

I just disagree with the Deus ex Machina part. I do think its a Deus ex Machina. The definition comes from the old greek plays (I know you know this), where every story was resolved by a group of gods descending from the heavens in some sort of contraption (hence the "ex machina" which translates as "from the machine") to wrap up the plot and solve everyones problems. In that sense, the star child IS a Deus ex, because thats what he does: He explains in 10 minutes what the reaper fuss is all about and presents you with 3 options to end the problem. Thing is, they not only fail by wrapping up with a Deus ex, they completely mess it up with a nonsensical explanation: "we have these machines that kill you so you dont make machines that will kill you".

anyway, just my 2cents.

Again, thank you OP, you deserve a standing ovation

[leianajade]

I don't have anything to add to this, but I wanted to thank the OP for taking the time to write this up. It was really interesting.

[mrbeavis19]

Great post. You make excellent points. I very much agree with your denouncement of them writing this simply to be profound. I, like you, think it's stupid to ruin a good story simply to do something unexpected. Happy endings are too mainstream? When did story-writers become such hipsters?

[Eternalsteelfan]

ScoobyDoob wrote...
Sorry that i am PMing you instead of replying to your post, it's just
that i cannot on the ME3 forums since i don't own the game...)

Your post was spot on! It put into words all the confusion I had about the ending.

I
would like to however bring up something that i have not read anyone
mention on the forums (ive been reading many threads for a few days
now):

Consider the points where Shepard is lying next to
Anderson bleeding heavily when he gets a call from Hacket "it's not
working..."
Shep then stumbles and barley makes it to the panel
only to collapse in front of it, passed out (or dead for all we know at
that point).

Ok lets pause.

At this point in the story
it seems all is lost, both Shep and Anderson are out or dead, no one can
activate the crucible (everybody else is either dead or retreated as
was announced on the radio before Shep goes up the beam).
So if nothing else happens the reapers most likely just won the war (or at least tipped the scales massively in their favor).

But then The RCG raises the platform, tells Shep to "wake up!" and pretty much saves the day.

1.
Does this not qualify the RGC as a deus ex machina? without his
intervention Shep would still be bleeding and probably die right there
in front of the panel. seems to me its straight out of greek myth, hero
dies/is unable to resolve the situation, then god comes from heaven to
bring hero back from the dead/enable him to fulfill his destiny...only
instead of a platform taking the hero up to god the greeks used a crane
to bring the god down. (the crane was the "machina")

2. The
intervention of the RCG in itself is a big plot hole. If Shep was unable
to fire the crucible and the reapers would most likely win at this
point, why did the RGC help/resurrect Shepard at all? It was against his
interest seeing how hard he tried to stop Shepard all along from
getting to this point.
"My solution doesn't work anymore"
"Why?"
"Because you are standing here"
"Yeah, thanks for raising the platform btw!"
"Sure thing bud, if you want to kill us just hit that red button over there"

plot-hole-ex-machina?

Would love your input on these points!
(oh
and feel free to put this up on your thread if you like. would like to
also hear the community since i didn't see anyone talk about this
particular point)

I hadn't thought of it that way, I suppose if Shepherd was dead or dying it could be some deus ex machina that the Catalyst "brings him back to life" or whatever. I'm going to go with your "plot-hole-ex-machina" phrase.

[Aisynia]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Yeah, there's such a huge disparity of quality between the ending and the rest of the series. Again, my thinking returns to that loose leaf Walters wrote on; very unrefined ideas and then in big letters, "Lots of speculation from everyone". Controversy by design.

A clear indication to me that he not only failed to either acknowledge or understand basic story structure (pick one or both), but also completely failed to understand his fans.

Had we been left with a resolution that provided closure, and a sense that our struggles mattered, warm fuzzies would have ensued regardless of whether or not some elements of it were tragic.

Instead, we got an ending that is utterly baffling.. even insulting.

I guess what really gets me, is that the ending is written under the assumption that discussion-breeding ambiguity and emotional closure are mutually exclusive. They are not, and some of the best books and films in history have provided an ending that both provides closure, and makes us discuss and speculate.

Hilariously, "end of the first matrix" is written on that page as an example of what he wanted to accomplish, and still failed horribly at. That movie, saying nothing of its sequels, provided a resolution to the plot of the movie, and left people satisfied with where the characters were, and how they had evolved over the course of the film. That's a big part of what made the film so popular, it left people satisfied. The primary elements that bred speculation (such as the superman flight) don't happen until everything else is neatly tied in a bow.

Bottom line:

People speculated about that film for positive reasons. They enjoyed the film and the resolution left them wanting more.

People are by and large speculating about Mass Effect 3 for negative reasons. They were left unfulfilled and are desperately grasping at anything they can to help make sense of something that insulted the rest of the game, the franchise as a whole, and their own intelligence.

[Count Viceroy]

Very nice post, it confirms what I've been telling myself all along, Hudson and Walters shouldn't set foot near a development team.

[BrotherArdis]

I'm really glad to see that what most people feel instinctively also finds confirmation in a professional analysis. It's also good that someone has explained to me why *exactly* I feel so terrible about the ending. I could point to several issues myself, but they are all just "our choices eventually amount to nothing", "the war assets concept is never truly used", "the story was going in a totally different direction" and the likes. These are mostly matters of individual taste and as such are highly debatable; arguing with concrete arguments regarding to scriptwriting theory is much more difficult.

Modifié par BrotherArdis, 16 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[HowlingSiren]

Two words: THANK YOU!

[SimonTheFrog]

Very good explanation why the ending feels so wrong.

Thanks!

[Captain Arty]

Warlock Adam wrote...

Five stars. This is eloquent, accurate, and well-said. Perfect.

HOLD THE LINE

+1 Thanks for the thoughtful contribution.

[Captain Arty]

And, it's true. I felt more connected with Mordin than with Shephard after ME3.

[Lambchopz]

Anybody with a background in any kind of creative writing should be able to look at ME3's ending and objectively identify it's problems. I mean, everybody should, but any respectable writer SHOULD be able to articulately describe what is so wrong with this ending, as has been done here.

What I'm saying is there are parts of this ending that are objectively bad writing, maybe to some that sounds off, but writing is not like visual art. Some writing is just straight up bad no matter how much you try to spin it as artistic license.

[Panicomatic]

This was an amazing read. As a fan base I know that we are being depicted as a bunch of fanatical foaming-at-the-mouth types, but I keep reading some amazing posts that are very well thought out and poke holes in the paper bag that is the ending to ME3. With any luck, we may get traction from efforts like yours. But probably not, since you can spin just about anything.

[Palladin123]

Panicomatic wrote...

As a fan base I know that we are being depicted as a bunch of fanatical foaming-at-the-mouth types, but I keep reading some amazing posts that are very well thought out and poke holes in the paper bag that is the ending to ME3.

Good point. I've seen a lot of well thought out critiques of the ending here on BSN and elsewhere. The gaming and general press really needs to get over the stereotype of gamers being lonely males with no social life playing games in the basement of their parents' house. I'm surprised that parts of the gaming press of all people are supporting this stereotype through their articles on the controversy. 

And great post OP - I think the endings would have turned out much better if someone like you had written them.

[Meltemph]

Great add about Shep and tragic.